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This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution and get assistance to the right place; request for comment, conduct RFC, mediation or other noticeboard, if involving other issues. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button Button rediriger.png to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember guidelines and policy when discussing issues. Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN.

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Case Created Last volunteer edit Last modified
Title Status User Time User Time User Time
2014 Israel–Gaza conflict 2In Progress TheTimesAreAChanging (t) 2014-09-01 03:04:00 Keithbob (t) 2014-09-18 15:11:00 Nishidani (t) 2014-09-19 21:49:00
Talk:Praveen Togadia#Non_notable_controversy 7Closed Kautilya3 (t) 2014-09-04 12:50:00 None n/a Bladesmulti (t) 2014-09-04 14:17:00
Lviv 2In Progress 76.116.54.47 (t) 2014-09-05 15:49:00 Kkj11210 (t) 2014-09-12 00:27:00 Faustian (t) 2014-09-17 03:07:00
War of the Pacific 1New Keysanger (t) 2014-09-13 09:07:00 Keithbob (t) 2014-09-19 21:26:00 Keithbob (t) 2014-09-19 21:26:00
Gospel of Matthew 1New PiCo (t) 2014-09-18 02:17:00 Guy Macon (t) 2014-09-18 03:34:00 Ret.Prof (t) 2014-09-19 13:02:00
Talk:GamerGate 1New Retartist (t) 2014-09-18 06:12:00 None n/a Retartist (t) 2014-09-19 01:43:00
Talk:Trial of Oscar Pistorius#Reasonable foresight 2In Progress HelenOnline (t) 2014-09-18 06:49:00 Keithbob (t) 2014-09-19 21:38:00 Keithbob (t) 2014-09-19 21:38:00
Last updated by DRN clerk bot (talk) at 22:00, 19 September 2014 (UTC)



Contents

Current disputes[edit]

2014 Israel–Gaza conflict[edit]

Pictogram voting wait blue.svg – Discussion in progress.
Filed by TheTimesAreAChanging on 03:04, 1 September 2014 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

Reliable sources--including news reports describing the attacks, official statements by the Israeli PM, and secondary analyses--state that Hamas began directly firing rockets at Israel on June 29 or June 30. Other reliable sources state that Hamas only began taking formal "responsibility" for rocket attacks after a July 6 Israeli attack on Khan Yunis killed Hamas members. Even though all of those sources explicitly attribute the latter claim to Hamas, and my opponents acknowledge the ambiguity of the "responsibility" language, outspoken anti-Israel activist editors have deleted the Israeli claims on the grounds that the sources are somehow less than reliable. The discussion on the talk page speaks for itself.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Talk page discussion.

How do you think we can help?

You can examine the sources in a neutral manner and suggest a proposed wording.

Summary of dispute by Nishidani[edit]

Nothing to say here, because the report falsifies the evidence (all sources do not attribute to Hamas a claim that they took responsibility on the 7th. (b)'outspoken anti-Israel activist editors' is the editor's way of writing 'people who disagree with me', and implies the editor has already profiled people who do not agree with him as animated by some pathological hostility to a state. It's a smearing caricature.Nishidani (talk) 09:19, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Kingsindian[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

The issue here is when Hamas rocket fire started. There is a long discussion here. The basic source here is Nathan Thrall. The full quote by Thrall is given here.

Several points now:

  • The lead is a summary, and it was agreed to keep it as short as possible.
  • Thrall is a neutral, highly respected analyst at the International Crisis Group. The source is eminently WP:RS. There is no "Hamas claim" which he is reporting.
  • Thrall makes it clear that the rockets before July 6 were fired by non-Hamas groups. The last sentence by Thrall is slightly ambiguous, which can be read as Hamas taking responsibility for rocket fire after 6 July, or Hamas taking responsibility for rockets before 6 July.
  • Other sources detailed in the section speak less ambiguously and each points to July 6 raid as the date when Hamas started firing rockets. There is only one exception cited there, J.J. Goldberg, who repeats the Israeli claim that the rocket fire started on June 30.
  • There are some news reports, cited here by TheTimesAreAChanging which (mostly) report the Netanyahu claim, or cite the IDF that Hamas rockets started on June 30 or "Hamas involvement" in the rockets. A typical example is the Reuters report, which makes it clear (even in the title) that it is reporting Netanyahu's claims. Most of the other news reports either quote the IDF or Netanyahu. As far as I can see, there is exactly one report by Ynet, an Israeli newspaper, which states this in its own voice, but a cursory look at that article will show that it is based on IDF sources.
  • Newspapers are meant to report real-time things and often they just report, "he said, she said" (often they don't bother about "she said"). The Thrall source (and others cited in the section) are neutral, third party analysts, some of them could be accused of bias for sure.
  • I have offered earlier to include the Thrall quote with its slight ambiguity and with attribution. That was not commented upon, and I assume, rejected.

This is not the venue to be discussing conduct, so any accusation of "anti-Israel activist editors" is out of place. Needless to say, it is false, TheTimesAreAChanging has already made up his mind about me and nothing will shake it. Kingsindian (talk) 12:53, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Shrike[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

We should stick to what sources say pretty simple .Thrall source its only one source and we may use it but there are other sources like analysis by Goldenberg that are too important and as TheTimesAreAChanging said we shouldn't advance one POV that rockets that where fired before was not by Hamas while other sources clearly say that where fired by Hamas member.We should definitely include this information.--Shrike (talk) 04:01, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Comment by -sche[edit]

Since someone in the discussion section has noted my silence, I suppose I'll comment out loud: meh. My main interest is keeping the article well-copyedited, I don't have strong feelings about whether or not the "30 June" claim should be included. On the talk page, someone discussed changing "which Hamas itself began following an Israeli airstrike on 6 July which killed seven Hamas militants in Khan Yunis" to "which Hamas itself began on either June 30 (according to Israel) or July 7 (according to Hamas)". This was shot down (ugh, did I just make a missile pun?) because the July 7 date was not "according to Hamas", but "according to several sources independent of either Hamas or the IDF". Perhaps the solution is just to say that, i.e. to say something to the effect of "which Hamas itself began either (according to several sources) on 7 July after an Israeli airstrike on 6 July killed seven Hamas militants in Khan Yunis, or (according to Israel) on 30 June". -sche (talk) 06:28, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by IRISZOOM[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

As others have explained here, the problem is not correctly described here. The claim is not made by Hamas but neutral authors. --IRISZOOM (talk) 17:38, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

It's not only one source, it's several of them. One more was noted by me yesterday, an article written by Noam Chomsky. See this. --IRISZOOM (talk) 08:56, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

If I may interject: Z Communications is fringe. Chomsky is a notable polemicist. Nishidani favors keeping the Goldberg claim with attribution, but it is not clear why Thrall or Chomsky do not need attribution, or why the lead should not summarize that part of the article.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 16:18, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
Chomsky is a respected person.
Goldberg's claim can be there but it doesn't change many more sources say the opposite of what he says. --IRISZOOM (talk) 14:37, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

2014 Israel–Gaza conflict discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

The BBC source says "On 7 July, Hamas claimed responsibility." Thrall says "[On 7 July,] Hamas began taking responsibility for the rockets." (Which may include the rockets fired before.) Both of those claims are explicitly attributed to Hamas. By contrast, Goldberg says "On June 29, an Israeli air attack on a rocket squad [emphasis added] killed a Hamas operative. Hamas protested. The next day [Hamas] unleashed a rocket barrage, its first since 2012. The cease-fire was over. Israel was forced to retaliate for the rockets with air raids." Ynet reported: "For the first time since the end of the IDF Operation Pillar of Defense in November 2012, the Hamas military wing is behind rocket strikes on Israel, with a wave of attacks overnight Sunday (June 29) and early Monday emanating from central Gaza refugee camps completely under Hamas control. There a number of Palestinian factions active in Gaza and though Israel views Hamas as responsible for any rockets fired from the Gaza territory, the group generally avoids such direct attacks on Israel. In the past 24 hours, however, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades have been launching rockets from the Dir al Balach, Bureij and Muasi refugee camps...Monday's rockets were of an older make known to be in the Hamas arsenal...The IDF said Mohammed Zaid Abid was killed after the army launched a targeted attack against his rocket launching cell minutes before they planned to fire at Israel. Abid was identified by Palestinian media as a member of the Hamas military wing." So Ynet cites the IDF and Palestinian media for information on Abid, but neither Ynet nor the later analysis by Goldberg directly attribute the claim of Hamas rocket fire on June 30 to Israel. Even if the Reuters article quoting Netanyahu were the only source, and this was an "Israeli government POV", it would be grossly misleading to suppress it in favor of the official Hamas POV. Nishidani and Kingsindian appear to believe, because they are fans of Thrall's work and have praised it on Nishidani's talk page, that Thrall had some mechanism for determining the earlier reports of Hamas rocket fire were false and for verifying the official Hamas claims. That is sheer nonsense.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 08:16, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Thrall says it in his own voice, and is not quoting Hamas claims. He also says in his own voice, that the pre-July 6 rockets were fired by non-Hamas factions. The fact that Thrall did not repeat the Israeli claim, while he stated the facts in his own voice is operative. Your opinion about his methods is irrelevant here. I will take Thrall's analysis over a WP editor's. If you feel his last sentence is ambiguous, I have already made the offer to quote it directly, with attribution. Kingsindian (talk) 09:14, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
Thrall and BBC are no more reliable than Goldberg or Ynet. I was not aware of any proposal to quote Thrall prior to this DRN discussion, but since we are here I welcome volunteer input on this matter.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 00:27, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Hello, I am MrScorch6200, the DRN coordinator. Please remember to keep discussion to a minimum until this case is opened by a volunteer. Thanks and regards, MrScorch6200 (talk | ctrb) 04:01, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
    • I am not opening this case but I have a procedural question: Three of the five editors invited by the filing party appear to have chosen not to participate here. One has removed the DRN notice from their talk page. The other two have edited WP since the DRN notice was placed on their page. Is it useful to continue with this case in spite of their absence? What do the participants think?-- KeithbobTalk 04:41, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
Yes, it is useful to continue. I would appreciate a neutral observer's take on the sources.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 10:11, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

24 hour closing notice: I don't see any indication of meaningful participation here by the named parties. DRN participation is optional and if editors to not want to engage in moderated discussion we cannot force them to. So far only the filing party has said they feel that partial consensus would be valuable in moving the issue forward. If you want "a neutral observer's take on the sources" then I suggest a WP:3O as DRN is for moderated discussion not outside opinions.-- KeithbobTalk 20:23, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

As a possibly unusual step I left notes for Shrike and IRISZOOM encouraging them to actively participate. It would be unfortunate if the DRN had to close due to their absence. DRN is one of our better methods of resolving disputes. EdJohnston (talk) 23:49, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
Everyone has commented except Shrike, who only left a sentence on the talk page in the first place. You previously told us to limit our discussion before a volunteer got involved. There is no reason why an impartial opinion should be this difficult to obtain. Thank you for the suggestion on 3O; I will try that if Shrike's absence is really so crucial.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 01:56, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
I have not used WP:DRN before, so I am puzzled about the procedure. The talk page discussion is already listed, and we were told not to discuss more without volunteer input. Now there is a 24-hour closing notice (on the heels of a 48-hour closing notice, which I was equally puzzled by, and which was withdrawn after I clarified matters). As to the statement by IRISZOOM, they can speak for themselves, but my feeling is simply that they didn't elaborate because it would simply repeat the talk page discussion. Kingsindian (talk) 06:13, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
Four days ago I asked the participants if they felt a discussion by a limited portion of the parties listed would be useful and beneficial. Only the filing party responded. There was no other support or input. That created doubt in my mind about the will of the participants to continue. As a few others have now responded and indicated they want a moderated discussion. So I'll allow the case to stay open a bit longer in the hopes that a volunteer will take the case soon. Thanks for your patience.-- KeithbobTalk 16:54, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Core of the dispute[edit]

Attn: Nishidani,Kingsindian, Shrike,-sche, IRISZOOM and TheTimesAreAChanging

  • My time is limited so it is with reluctance that I take this case. However, since no one else has come forward or responded to my plea on the DRN talk page, I am opening this discussion. All participants have faithfully come to the discussion table and posted summaries and deserve to work out this issue in a neutral forum such as DRN so I will do my best to serve in that role.
  • Please be reminded that we are here to discuss content only. I understand emotions sometimes run high but please refrain from personalizing the discussion by making comments about bad faith, bias etc. Let's focus solely on the content.
  • First we need to agree on the core of the dispute. Am I correct in stating that the core of the dispute is over how to characterize the media reports sources regarding Hamas' involvement (or non-involvement) in the rockets fired at Israel in late June? Is this correct?-- KeithbobTalk 21:39, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
Not media reports. That is just one source. For instance, the Nathan Thrall source is not a media report. The issue is how to describe the situation in the lead. Kingsindian (talk) 21:46, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
Since both conflicting claims are in the body, both should be mentioned in the lead, with wording we can all accept.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 23:35, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
OK, I"ve changed my statement to read "sources" instead of "media reports".-- KeithbobTalk 03:59, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
That is still imprecise. The nuances are already discussed in the background section. The issue is how to describe it in the lead. Kingsindian (talk) 04:11, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
Ok then please propose [here] your own succinct version of the core of the dispute and we'll see if we can get it ratified by the other participants. Identifying and agreeing on the boundaries of the dispute is the first step in the resolution process.-- KeithbobTalk 21:42, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
The core of the dispute is how to describe the chronology of the rocket fire in the lead. Currently, it states the following (paraphrasing). "Non-Hamas factions in Gaza started rocket fire in response to various events (crackdown in the West Bank, itself in response to kidnapping/murder of three teenagers). On 6 July, an air strike killed 7 Hamas militants. After this, Hamas began taking responsibility for rocket fire." TheTimesAreAChanging wishes to add the statement (properly attributed) that Hamas actually started rocket fire on 30 June, which is the Israeli claim. My view is that the neutral sources describe the chronology as currently stated. In my view, the nuances should be described in the Background section, as is the case now. Kingsindian (talk) 11:49, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
It's not clear to me that Ynet or Goldberg are truly less neutral than Thrall or Chomsky, or that the Israeli position is irrelevant to this war between Israel and Gaza.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 16:29, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

OK, let's take on thing at a time. We are not discussing proposed changes yet. What we are doing is gaining consensus on what the core of the dispute is. This should be easy, let's not make it complicated. The proposed 'core of the dispute' is:

  • How to describe the chronology, of this summer's rocket fire on Israel, in the lead of the article.

Can we all agree on that? -- KeithbobTalk 17:03, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Certainly.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 17:04, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
Yes. Kingsindian (talk) 11:08, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
Yes.--Shrike (talk) 11:20, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
Yes. --IRISZOOM (talk) 13:26, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Great, thanks everyone. Now let's move on. Can someone ID the section of the exact sentences in the article that we are trying to summarize in the lead?-- KeithbobTalk 16:44, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

The content we want to summarize[edit]

2014_Israel–Gaza_conflict#Immediate_events. Starting from "On 29 June, an Israeli airstrike..." to "Early on 8 July..." Kingsindian (talk) 17:29, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

OK. So this is the content we want to summarize in the lead:
    • On 29 June, an Israeli airstrike on a rocket crew killed a Hamas operative, while at least 18 rockets were launched from Gaza through the next day by Hamas according to J.J. Goldberg, who states that it was the first time Hamas itself had launched rockets since the conflict in 2012.[84] Overnight, on 30 June – 1 July, Israeli airstrikes struck 34 Gaza targets in what officials stated was a response to the Sunday rocketry,[138] while Stuart Greer reported the strikes were revenge for the deaths of the three youths.[139] From the day of the abductions on 12 June through 5 July 117 rockets were launched from Gaza and there were approximately 80 Israeli airstrikes on Gaza.[140][141] On 4 July, Hamas declared it was prepared to halt the rocket fire in exchange for an agreement by Israel to stop airstrikes.[142] Israel issued a warning that it "would only be able to sustain militant rocket fire for another 24, or maximum 48, hours before undertaking a major military offensive."[143] On the night of 6 July, an Israeli air raid on the house of a Hamas operative in Khan Yunis killed seven people.[93][144][145] The following day, Hamas referred to the incident as a "massacre against women and children [and] a horrendous war crime" and claimed "all Israelis have now become legitimate targets"; it then assumed formal responsibility for launching rocket attacks on Israel.[32][85][144][145] Hamas increased rocket attacks on Israel,[85] and by 7 July had fired 100 rockets from Gaza at Israeli territory; at the same time, the Israeli Air Force had bombed several sites in Gaza.[146][147][148]
Which sentences in the lead currently summarize this content?-- KeithbobTalk 18:19, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

"The aim of the Israeli operation was to stop rocket fire from Gaza into Israel, which non-Hamas factions began following an Israeli crackdown on Hamas in the West Bank after the kidnapping and murder of 3 Israeli teenagers by two Hamas members, and which Hamas took responsibility for on 7 July (launching 40 rockets) after an Israeli airstrike on Khan Yunis killed seven of its members."

Unfortunately that is a slightly unfortunate version, which was made in copyediting the passage: which rendered it ambiguous. This has not been fixed due to the mass of other edits I had to attend to. The earlier version was the following. Kingsindian (talk) 19:50, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

The stated aim of the Israeli operation was to stop rocket fire from Gaza into Israel, which non-Hamas factions began following an Israeli crackdown on Hamas in the West Bank after the kidnapping and murder of 3 Israeli teenagers by two Hamas members.[1] Hamas in turn on July 7, after seven of its militants died in an Israeli airstrike on Khan Yunis the day before, assumed responsibility for missiles fired from Gaza and launched a barrage of 40 rockets.[2][1][3][4]

References
  1. ^ a b Nathan Thrall (1 August 2014). "Hamas's Chances". London Review of Books 36 (16). 
  2. ^ Christa Case Bryant, 'Ending détente, Hamas takes responsibility for today's spike in rocket fire (+video)', Christian Science Monitor, 7 July 2014: "After days of steadily increasing strikes, Hamas militants in Gaza launched at least 40 rockets tonight alone in what appears to be a decision to escalate the conflict. The dramatic spike in rocket attacks is likely to put significant pressure on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to heed calls for an all-out offensive against the Islamist movement, which Israel and the US consider a terrorist organization. While there has been intermittent rocket fire from Gaza since the cease-fire that ended the November 2012 Pillar of Defense conflict, Israel has credited Hamas with largely doing its best to keep the various militant factions in line. Today, however, Hamas took direct responsibility for the fire for the first time, sending a barrage of dozens of rockets into Israel in the worst day of such violence in two years."
  3. ^ "Gaza-Israel conflict: Is the fighting over?". BBC. 26 August 2014. Retrieved 28 August 2014. "On 7 July, Hamas claimed responsibility for firing rockets for the first time in 20 months, after a series of Israeli air strikes in which several members of its armed wing were killed." 
  4. ^ "IDF's Operation "Protective Edge" Begins Against Gaza". Jewish Press. Retrieved 8 July 2014. 

Proposed changes to the lead[edit]

What are the proposed changes to the section of the lead cited above?-- KeithbobTalk 13:47, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

I think the paragraph as quoted is fine, though it is awkwardly phrased. This is perhaps unavoidable, but cogency is a small price to pay for NPOV in this topic area. TheTimesAreAChanging can speak for himself, but my impression is that he wants the claim by Goldberg, that Hamas started rocket fire on June 30 to be included in the lead. I oppose this, per WP:UNDUE and WP:SS. Kingsindian (talk) 14:08, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
Good points, let's see what others have to say.-- KeithbobTalk 16:13, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
The claim by Goldberg, Ynet, and the Israeli government that Hamas began direct rocket fire on June 30 (after attempted Hamas rocket fire on June 29) is a salient counterpoint to the Hamas claim that the rocket attacks were a response to the July 6 Israeli attack on Khan Yunis (which was itself a response to Hamas' refusal to abide by Israel's July 4 warning that it could only sustain rocket fire for another 48 hours). Most of the rockets from "non-Hamas factions", incidentally, are launched by Hamas' allies in Islamic Jihad, who Hamas allows to operate freely and many of whose attacks have been launched under Hamas' direct control and supervision--not by fringe al Qaeda affiliates. While Hamas' ability to control rocket fire from Gaza has been demonstrated by their ability to adhere to ceasefires in the past, the quadrupling of rocket fire following the Hamas takeover of the territory, and the upsurge in rocket attacks publicly supported by Hamas in "protest" of the arrest of Hamas members, the article also fails to emphasize what even lefties like Goldberg and Thrall plainly say: That Hamas allowed the massive upsurge in rocket fire against Israel. Goldberg says Hamas merely gave up on law enforcement, adding that many Hamas members went into hiding because they feared an "inevitable" Israeli attack over the deaths of the three teenagers, while Thrall says Hamas wanted to demonstrate their credibility to the Arab Street by calling for a Third Intifada, and thus could not "sell out" by adhering to the 2012 ceasefire. I think it's more likely that jihadists are in a perpetual struggle to be holier than thou by making war against the infidels, and that Hamas' repeated ceasefire violations during the war demonstrate the falsity of attributing their fundamental motivation to tragically misread signals with both sides equally at fault for escalating rhetoric. However, even Thrall and Goldberg support the claim that Hamas stopped enforcing the 2012 ceasefire among "non-Hamas factions", a point Wikipedia does not make regarding the increase in rocket fire anywhere in the entire article. My suggestion that we at least include the Israeli claim of direct Hamas rocket fire on June 30 was thus the bare minimum proposal for a neutral lead that I could possibly abide.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 16:33, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
Any comments from other participants?-- KeithbobTalk 15:11, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
A gentle ping to Shrike, IRISZOOM and Nishidani, who might have forgotten that this is going on. I have my own thoughts on TheTimesAreAChanging's comments, but I will wait before others have weighed in, or till asked by the moderator. I did not ping -sche because he said his only interest is in copyediting, not content. Kingsindian (talk) 19:12, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
I support the analysis of TTAG per NPOV policy as we should give view of all the POVs on this matter.--Shrike (talk) 19:51, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
Can you and a few other editors stop 'voting'. This is about reasoned argument, and 'votes' devoid of intelligent reflection risk being read as support flags on partisan grounds.
It's actually much more complex than this. Israel and non-Hamas affiliated groups exchanged fire through June as any date+airstrike search for June will show. The TimesAreAChanging's WP:OR version of history in which he imputes some hidden complicity between Hamas and these groups is denied by numerous sources, including, authoritatively, the Israeli gov. at the time. Neither Thrall and Goldberg are 'lefties' which is cant used to smear opinions by authoritative journalists, scholars and area specialists some highly partisans sources dislike. Fourth. If you like, you can find journalistic sources reporting that a Senior Southern Command (Gaza) officer said the IDF had knowledge Hamas planned a "July War" since either late 2013 or 2014. This was later dismissed as nonsense, but much of the other nonsense taken by the press from IDF and other sources is repeated in newspapers, and that is why one must exercise extreme care with the Ynet et al. articles cited. They attribute to IDF sources an attribution to Hamas. It is still not clear. Fifth, TTAAC is waving for a putative Hamas rocket attempt on June 29, and then the beginning (i.e. it never stopped from thereone in) of rocket fire on June 30, to Goldberg. In a latter piece Goldberg revises this picture:
J.J. Goldberg Kidnap Plotter Indicted: Still Looks Like 'Lone Cell' The Forward 5 September 2014, now reads:

Meshaal, in fact, stated explicitly that Hamas hadn’t known, as he said to Al Jazeera June 24 and to Sky News on July 3. Sky News reported at the time, citing unnamed Hamas officials, that Hamas had asked Turkey to tell Israel the organization wanted to restore calm and avoid escalation. This was in the immediate aftermath after several rounds of escalating exchanges — several barrages of radical jihadi rockets that Hamas failed to interdict in June, Israel’s accidental killing of a Hamas operative during a retaliatory strike on a jihadi rockets squad June 30 and a Hamas rocket barrage July 1 in retaliation for the killing — were leading the two sides to the brink of war.

This has Goldberg saying Israel and Gazan non-affiliated groups were shooting at each other through late June (as newspapers report). Hamas failed to stop the jihadis, one Hamas official was accidentally killed by Israel as Israel fired back at a group. Hamas, doing what Israel does, fired back in retaliation on July 1 at Israel (not June 30), and as escalation loomed, informed Israel two days later via Turkey that, Hamas desired a return of calm to avoid escalation. What happened through 4-7 (Israel's response is another interesting tale, not told in those sources).
So Goldberg (1) from which TTAAC had made his huge WP:OR tract is revised, retracted or finessed by a narrative (Goldberg (2)) that, rather than permit the hasbara POV meme which invariably has it, on each an every occasion that, 'Israel was attacked' and 'responded to the aggression', now reads:'non-Hamas forces and Israel exchanged fire. A Hamas official was killed by Israeli firing at the latter, and Hamas retaliated, and then sought through diplomatic channels to restore calm with Israel. This selective use of sources, compounded by WP:OR, has produced the travesty above, which tries to use Goldberg (1) to undermine the authority of 7 other sources listed on my page, which concentrate on the key period 7 July for the moment in which Hamas decided, after an Israeli strike killed several of its members, to respond in kind. (Nishidani 23:44 my time. my computer won't allow me to sign this page)Nishidani (talk) 21:49, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Praveen Togadia#Non_notable_controversy[edit]

Symbol comment vote.svg – General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by Kautilya3 on 12:50, 4 September 2014 (UTC).

Lviv[edit]

Pictogram voting wait blue.svg – Discussion in progress.
Filed by 76.116.54.47 on 15:49, 5 September 2014 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

Refusal to follow the Gdansk rule precedent, condoning ethnic cleansing, and general antipolinism. It appears that there is one rule in Wikipedia for using the historical name of present day Polish cities which had been German before WWII, and another rule for the cities of Second Polish Republic from which Poles were ethnically cleansed by Stalin and other antipolinist nationalists. Rather than following the Gdansk rule precedent which has been used in Gdansk, and Wroclaw, there is hostility by other editors to the Gdansk rule in Wiki: NAME It is not seriously disputed that from 1340 to 1944 the city had a a majority population of Polish speakers comprised of a plurality of ethnic Poles combined with large numbers of Polish Jews, but certain editors object to usage of the Polish name Lwów during this long history prior to forced Soviet deportations and annexation.

Edit to note that the action of the named editors also violated Wiki Reasonability Rule: "Consensus occurs only when the community as a whole agree that a particular action or presentation is reasonable in nature... Similarly, it would be unreasonable for an apparent consensus to form that would be contrary to Wikipedia policies (for example, insisting that a material fact is contrary to that presented in reliable sources)." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reasonability_Rule Here these editors have unreasonably decided to have a separate rule for cities of the Second Polish Republic from which ethnic Poles were deported to pre-WWII German lands than in the formerly German cities to which they were sent. This is unreasonable. It is also discriminatory. Lwów, Wilno, and other formerly Polish cities are the opposite side of the same coin as the formerly German cities which are now Gdansk, Wroclaw, and Szczecin. There is no objective reason given for the different treatment.

Per Wiki:NAME, Treatment of alternative names, "There is also no reason why alternative names cannot be used in article text, in contexts where they are more appropriate than the name used as the title of the article.": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Article_titles#Treatment_of_alternative_names Yet these authors, who do not contest that the Polish name of Lwów is more appropriate than other names during times of Polish sovereignty, or perhaps other names at other times. (Edits using the German name of "Lemberg were also deleted.) They simply refuse to follow the rule, and want to edit war because I invoked it.

Also, the discussion to which they wish to rely is a reactionary statement from Taivo that "This is a Ukrainian city and its Ukrainian name is the title of the article. Its Ukrainian name should be preserved throughout the article." Some, including a Ukrainian nationalist contributor who prefers to refer to the Eastern lands of pre-war Poland as "occupied Western Ukraine", agreed with Taivo. The rationalizations for not following the Gdansk rule is that it is too messy or confusing to use other more appropriate names.

In fact, there is nothing messy or confusing about the postwar history of Lwów. Over 100,000 ethnic Poles were forcibly deported Westward from Lwów after the city was annexed without their consent or their government's while thousands more who served in the Polish military were unable to return to their homeland. It would be difficult to find a clearer case of mass anti-polinism than this. In the modern world we call the forced deportation of a civilian population a crime against humanity. and it is against the Geneva conventions. (I didn't use the term genocide, although the Ukrainian nationalists in the larger area did participate in genocide against Jews and ethnic Poles.) These editors are using their subjective judgment of "messy" and "confusing" to actually obscure a crime against humanity. It is unreasonable, and unacceptable.

[Edit to note that I have no issues with Xx236, who appears to be on my side in this dispute.]


— Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.116.54.47 (talk) 05:27, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Talk page.

How do you think we can help?

Uniform application of the Gdansk rule and precedent, and the involvement of more neutral editors.

Summary of dispute by Taivo[edit]

There is no "Gdansk rule", there is only a "Gdansk option". Naming in any individual article is not based on an invariable rule, but upon local consensus. The existing consensus for naming Lviv through history is to use the current name "Lviv". The anonymous IP who is pushing to use the older, Polish name for the Polish era (but inexplicably ignores the Russian name for the Soviet era and the German name for the Austro-Hungarian era), has done nothing whatsoever to build a consensus on the Talk Page, but has resorted to falsely calling the Gdansk option an invariable "rule". --Taivo (talk) 16:57, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

It is also worth noting that other formerly Polish cities in western Ukraine follow Lviv's example. Rivne, for example, is "Rivne" throughout and doesn't switch between Równe and Rovno. Lutsk is also "Lutsk" throughout and doesn't alternate with Łuck. Even more to the point, Uzhhorod is known as "Uzhhorod" throughout and not "Uzhgorod" or "Ungvár", despite the fact that until WWII up to 80% of the city's population was Hungarian. The suggestion that this amounts to genocide is rather extraordinary, to say the least. --Taivo (talk) 01:55, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Xx236[edit]

I understand that I have to start 500 votes regarding names of former Polish places and institutions and it's quite probable that I'll loose all of them because Polish editors aren't active here.
There exists the problem of nationalistic (including Polish) content in this Wikipedia in general and in this article specifically.
If such perfect consens exists since one year why doesn't the article apply it?

Xx236 (talk) 06:56, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Pichpich[edit]

Editors of the article on Gdansk were locked in a bitter dispute for quite some time which was resolved by a fairly simple rule: use Gdańsk in the title and in the rest of the article except in the history sections where the German name Danzig makes more sense (Danzig is also used in the lead sentence). This case is cited as an example in the policy WP:NAME but it is not prescribed as a rule despite claims to the contrary. It merely notes (very wisely, I think) that "There is also no reason why alternative names cannot be used in article text, in contexts where they are more appropriate than the name used as the title of the article". Discussions about the use of Lviv vs. Lvov vs. Lwow has been discussed many times on the talk page and in particular during a one-year old compromise that reads as follows:

  • Reduce the number of times the city is named in the history section
  • Use Lviv throughout when the city must be named
  • In the first sentence, whenever the name changes due to a change in ownership, the form of the name in the ruling power's language (Lviv > Lwów > Lemberg [1795] > Lwów [1919] > Lvov [1939] > Lviv [1991]) is noted in a parenthetical note after "Lviv"

This is different from the solution used in Gdańsk but it does follow the spirit of WP:NAME's suggestion to use alternative names in the article. I prefer this consensus as I think it avoids any confusion and increases readability.

Let me finally note that it's absurd to equate this choice with an anti-Polish slant or as condoning ethnic cleansing. Pichpich (talk) 20:03, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Lviv discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
  •  Clerk note: I notified Xx236 of the DRN request, however he has been fairly inactive the past few weeks. MrScorch6200 (talk | ctrb) 02:47, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Hello. I am a volunteer here at the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. Before beginning the discussion, there are a couple of things to note. Firstly, volunteers here have no special powers and abilities to enforce a particular course of action. Secondly, please respect all parties involved and assume good faith. Thirdly, the DR/N is not a place to discuss user conduct. Issues concerning user conduct, including accusations of pushing a particular POV, should be taken elsewhere.

With that, let us move onto the dispute. It is my understanding that the issue being discussed is the usage of alternative names in the history section. I'm assuming that there are no disputes concerning the usage of 'Lviv' for the title or any other section (e.g. Government). It is also my understanding that the city has had different names throughout history, which includes Lwów. Is this correct? Please respond below. KJ Discuss? 10:45, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Lviv has had four relevant historical names, three of which are simply linguistic variants of the same name: Lviv (Ukrainian, the modern name), Lvov (Russian, during the Soviet period, Lwów (Polish, during the centuries when Poland controlled the city), and Lemberg (German, during the Austro-Hungarian period before WWI). These names have had differing amounts of international usage in English. Ultimately, the issue is all about usage in English, particularly contemporary English. Many, many articles in Wikipedia use a single modern English name throughout the article for clarity to our modern readers. I haven't done a count, but I daresay that the vast majority of articles on cities follow that practice. But of particular relevance to Lviv are the articles that cover western Ukrainian cities such as Rivne, Uzhhorod, Lutsk, which have changed hands one or more times in the last two centuries. Uzhhorod, for example, started the 20th century in Austro-Hungarian hands, then became (in succession) Czechoslovakian, Hungarian, Soviet, and finally Ukrainian. During most of that period it had a majority Hungarian population (Ungvár is its Hungarian name). Yet rather than changing its reference name in the History section to match the owner at the time of the event being described, or using Ungvár for the long period where the majority of the population was Hungarian, Wikipedia uses "Uzhhorod" throughout for ease of reference to ease the job on the reader. The "Gdansk option" (it is not a rule as the anon IP would like you to think) has not been used in any other article on a Ukrainian city (that I can find) for that reason--keeping things simple for the reader. --Taivo (talk) 17:04, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
@Kkj11210 I think you're aware of this but just in case, let me point out that the current dispute (insofar as I understand it) is only about the use in the history section. However, both the title and the use of alternative names in the lead section have been discussed periodically on the talk page starting in 2004 (!!!) and as recently as April 2014. The current use in the history section follows the conclusion of a fairly civil discussion in August 2013. Pichpich (talk) 18:21, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
As a followup to my comment about changing names in Ukrainian city histories, I looked at Dnipropetrovsk. This is a case of a city that has remained under Russian/Soviet/Ukrainian control since it was founded as Yekaterinoslav in the 18th century. In the history writeup, the original Russian name "Yekaterinoslav" is used until the city was renamed "Dnepropetrovsk" after the Soviets took control of Ukraine. However, that original name is always shown in italics. After the city was renamed, only "Dnipropetrovsk" (the Ukrainian form) is used, never the Russian form. --Taivo (talk) 18:50, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
keeping things simple for the reader is a speculation, we don't know why.Xx236 (talk) 06:27, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
Dnipropetrovsk uses the formula The city that is now called Dnipropetrovsk. The article follows the Gdańs/Danzig logic.
Vilnius: The city was first mentioned in written sources in 1323 but we don't know under which name. Xx236 (talk) 06:34, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
Xx236, I mentioned Dnipropetrovsk because it varies the "Gdansk option" by italicizing one of the historical names and not including all historical variants. At Gdańsk, that is not the case. However, the great majority of city articles still do not follow the Gdansk option--whether italicizing the name or not--and that goes for Ukrainian cities as well. "Dnipropetrovsk" is not "Dnepropetrovsk" during the writeup of the Soviet era. Indeed, the reason why Yekaterinoslav is used at all in the Dnipropetrovsk writeup is because it is not simply a linguistic variant of the same name (as Lviv, Lvov, and Lwów are), but a different name entirely. Keeping things simple for the reader is one of the fundamental principles that always have to guide writing in Wikipedia. Using one name for a city, or, at the least, marking alternate names somehow (as italics does at Dnipropetrovsk), is our job. --Taivo (talk) 08:53, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

OK, I think the focus of the debate is pretty clear. I think that we all agree on the facts presented above. @76.116.54.47: Some questions for you. Is it your belief that the article should use alternative names throughout the history only to conform to the Gdansk vote? Please note that the apparent consensus on the talk page, mentions alternative names in the first sentence in each part of history when ownership has been changed, and is maintaining this practice as far as I can see. Do you believe only the alternative names should be used for the corresponding time period? KJ Discuss? 9:25, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

The point is not to enforce the Gdansk precedent because it is the rule. The relevant distinction is that the change in names throughout the cities history is reflective of the changing political and/or cultural forces which shaped the cities history. The discussion starts with a conclusion, which is supported by editors who think that following the Gdansk rule is pushing a Polish POV, and then (some of them) come to the subjective conclusion that the Gdansk rule is too messy and confusing for the reader. Nowhere was there a discussion about using the best name "in contexts where they are more appropriate than the name used as the title of the article" relevant to the dominant political powers and ethnic groups. This group just decided to short circuit that process, and based upon the subjective views of a small number of editors, now claim that the discussion has closed.
Furthermore, there are no special Wiki rules for Ukraine and present day Ukrainian cities. If our Ukrainian editors want to create their own online Ukrainian reference, they can call all of the cities in Modern Ukraine by Ukrainian names. The status quo to which Taivo refers is the result of these pages being dominated by editors, intentionally of subconsciously, with a Ukrainian POV. If there is confusion about the cultural changes in many cities of present day Western, it is because the editors of those pages have failed to address the post-war forced population deportations. (Read the comments on the cited Uzhhorod/Ungvár page about what happened to the Hungarian population of that city which before WWI was over 80% Hungarian.) The editors have an obligation to respect the dominant cultures which shaped these cities, as had been done in Gdansk, Wroclaw, and Szczecin by using the appropriate name for the city. The inconvenient truth is that before Stalin's crimes against humanity, Ukrainian culture was not dominate in the cities of the region. There is a connection here, and by refusing to follow the Gdansk rule precedent, this inconvenient truth is obscured.2601:B:8F00:7B3:993A:8D8:FB98:2697 (talk) 14:41, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
Your comments might be a nice nod to Polish history, but they ignore the fundamental problem that readers have in identifying what is being talked about when the name of a city changes paragraph by paragraph. It has nothing whatsoever to do with genocide or deportations--that is irrelevant to the issue of what to call a city in Wikipedia's narrative. It has everything to do with the ease with which readers can use our encyclopedia. Today the city is called "Lviv". It is called "Lviv" through the majority of the text. Switching the name from Lviv to Lwów to Lemberg back to Lwów to Lvov and finally back to Lviv makes no sense and makes comprehensibility to the reader difficult. --Taivo (talk) 15:07, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
The Gdansk Rule precedent is very clear. There is no reason not to use the most appropriate name for the city. Despite the clear wording of the rule, our Ukrainian editors have invented a reason to do otherwise. Whether or not these editors agree with the Gdansk rule is irrelevant. It remains the rule and it needs to be administered fairly, and without discrimination. It is unlikely that those not pushing a Ukrainian POV will agree with this novel loophole. I don't know if it is completely necessary to include Lvov or Lemberg too much if creating confusion was the issue, but there was never the appropriate discussion about this topic. (Undoubtedly, those who object to using Lwów over Lemberg for the Hapsburg era may not want to compare the treatment of Slavic cities elsewhere in Hapsburg lands on WP with regard to German vs. Slavic names. (cf. Brno, Ostrava, České Budějovice, etc.)) Avoiding reference to the city as Lwów, when the old city was built during Polish rule and during the Second Polish republic is completely unreasonable. 2601:B:8F00:7B3:74E7:17E1:E1C5:69E6 (talk) 03:06, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
There is no such thing as the "Gdansk Rule". It is not a rule. That has been the fundamental flaw in your argument all along. You want to simply push an option on us by calling it an invariable rule. It is no such thing. It was the solution in one specific article that editors may employ in other pages, but are not required to employ. I've said this multiple times on the Talk Page, but you continue to ignore the simple fact that there is no rule, there is only an option. The fundamental issue is, and always will be, readability and usability. --Taivo (talk) 03:35, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
@2601:B:8F00:7B3:74E7:17E1:E1C5:69E6: As the DRN volunteer, I must agree with Tavio concerning the interpretation of the Gdansk Vote. The Gdansk Vote is not a rule (i.e. neither policy or guideline) and is not intended to enforced in any other pages besides the page currently known as Gdańsk. Furthermore, Rules and policies are not supposed to be blindly enforced but efficiently adopted with the appropriate level of consensus, which is what we're here for. There also has been a previous discussion and consensus concerning the name to be used in the article, but consensus can change. Do you have any other arguments besides the Gdansk vote? KJ Discuss? 05:05, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
You are not correct. The Gdansk rule applies on all other pages that share a common Polish-German history: 'For Gdansk and other locations that share a history between Germany and Poland, the first reference of one name in an article should also include a reference to other names, e.g. Danzig (now Gdańsk, Poland) or Gdańsk (Danzig). An English language reference that primarily uses this name should be provided on the talk page if a dispute arises.' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wroc%C5%82aw This includes other cities, e.g., Szczecin, Wroclaw, Poznan, etc., and also biographies. The rule is there and the precedent has been set for places with changing political or cultural dominance. Even if we assume that the rule is not binding in itself in former Polish cities in the East, there is still the issue of reasonableness of having separate rules for Ukraine and discriminatory treatment of Polish history. (Poland is distinguishable from Hungary, or Romania in that Poland never allied itself with the Nazis, unlike the Soviets and Ukrainian Nationalists.) The relevant consensus is the larger Wiki community and not the ability of those with a certain nationalistic bias on individual pages to create local exceptions simply because they are dominating certain pages.2601:B:8F00:7B3:406C:E72A:7029:86B2 (talk) 15:37, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
How does Lwów not share a common Polish-German history? The Poles fought the German who occupied the area in WWII, along with the Nazi allied Ukrainian nationalists. The Gdansk rule clearly applies in Lwów. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:B:8F00:7B3:789D:5BB8:66D2:62D (talk) 17:41, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I too must stress that there is no such thing as a Gdańsk rule. I also feel that people are way too sensitive about the whole matter. I don't understand how one can seriously suggest that changing half a dozen Lwów into Lviv is akin to "obscuring the inconvenient truth [of Stalin's crimes against humanity]" and that supporting the current naming can only be the result of (at best) a subconscious Ukrainian POV. If the objective is to stress the Soviet-forced Polish emigration after WWII, the solution is simple: add good solid material in the relevant section. The actual name used has little to with it. Pichpich (talk) 18:46, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

@2601:B:8F00:7B3:74E7:17E1:E1C5:69E6: Let me clarify. What I meant was that the sections of the vote clearly only referencing the Gdansk article does not generalize into other articles (e.g. 'For Gdańsk, use the name Danzig between 1308 and 1945' would not be a general statement to be applied to other articles). As for the section you have mentioned, 'the first reference of one name in an article' does 'include a reference to other names.' See both the introductory sentence as well as Lviv#Names. Can we all agree that the Gdansk vote is followed on the Lviv article? KJ Discuss? 22:43, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
I'm confused by what you just wrote. Lviv does not follow the Gdansk Option since it doesn't switch between Lwów and Lviv in the History section. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your comment. --Taivo (talk) 22:54, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
I'm talking about referring to other names with the first reference in the article. That appears to be the only general rule in the vote. Can we agree that that is the case for this article? KJ Discuss? 00:27, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

A note: the IP prefaces his comment with an inaccuracy: " It is not seriously disputed that from 1340 to 1944 the city had a a majority population of Polish speakers comprised of a plurality of ethnic Poles combined with large numbers of Polish Jews" I doubt that when Poles took the town in 1349 (not 1340) it instantly became majority Polish. The original Eastern Slavic inhabitants always lived there even after they were eventually outnumbered. But this is irrelvant anyways - English usage is what counts. The city was referred to by its Latin name (Leopolis) in English documents prior to Austrian rule, then Lemberg, then Lwow, then Lvov and now Lviv. It seems confusing indeed to keep switching the terminology. A single sentence at the beginning of the section ("Called Lwow during this period) should be sufficient, without referring to different names throughout.Faustian (talk) 23:07, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree. Start the various sections with a comment that "It was called Lwów/Lemberg/Lvov during this period" and then continue to use Lviv for ease of reference and consistency. --Taivo (talk) 00:12, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
Considering that Faustian prefers to refer to this area as "occupied Western Ukraine" in the Bandera page, it is not surprising that he continues to make incorrect factual assertions without a reliable source about the ethnic history of a city which at its earliest period as a fortified settlement had a majority ethnic German population. (This page is about the history of city, not the peasants in the countryside.) It is also not surprising that he will dispute that a Polish Piast prince of Mazovia, Boleslaw Yuri II, ruled Galicia and Lviv from 1323 until his death in 1340. While he considers the rich historical cultural diversity of the city irrelevant, English usage only applies to the name of the article. The issue here is what name is most appropriate for corresponding time periods. It is good to note the name of city at the beginning of each historical period. Distraction for the reader can be reduced by limiting the number of times that the formal name is used. However, whenever the city is named it needs to refer to the appropriate name for the city during that time period, as with the Gdansk/Danzig precedent. This emphasizes the cultural diversity of the city and gives fair credit to the dominant cultures that created it. 85.154.245.172 (talk) 02:12, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
The IP claimed about me:"Faustian prefers to refer to this area as "occupied Western Ukraine" in the Bandera page." My statement on the Bandera talk page: "Well, Poland captured East Galicia from the West Ukrainian People's Republic in a war, not democratic referendum, and census data indicate that this region was majority Ukrainian (over 60%, per Snyder) so occupied might be technically correct. However I removed the word because it's not essential to the article or lead and there's no reason for distracting conflict." I suspect the IP, who rather than address the point attacks me for presenting it (by skewing my actual position, no less) is trying to battleground this issue.Faustian (talk) 03:07, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
Readability and comprehensibility are far more important than "fair credit" when that "fair credit" is unnecessary and diminishes readability. The principle of mentioning the appropriate historical name (Lemberg, Lvov, Lwów) in the first sentence after switching ownership and then continuing to use one reference name for the remainder of the discussion in that time period is far superior to confusing the reader by a plethora of historical names meandering through the text. There are more articles (not just in Ukraine but throughout Wikipedia) that use one name throughout rather than switching names when a new owner took over. --Taivo (talk) 02:22, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
Danzig/Gdańsk vote result diminished readability. Xx236 (talk) 06:16, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

War of the Pacific[edit]

Symbol wait old.png – New discussion.
Filed by Keysanger on 09:07, 13 September 2014 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, We have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

Was the 14 February 1879 the beginning of the War of the Pacific or another date in a chain of pivotal dates in the road to war?

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

A RfC failed to find a solution: Talk:War of the Pacific#RfC: Which are the relevant facts for the LEDE regarding the 14 February 1879?

How do you think we can help?

To find an adequate wording for the lede

Summary of dispute by Keysanger[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

The closer of the RfC states: There are WP:RS on both sides here, and people working in good faith can come to the opposite conclusion as to which the the right answer is. The Context matters bit is important however, and some of the sources are certainly less reliable for historical analysis than others.[2]

Therefore I think that Darkness Shines's sentence The War of the Pacific started on February 14, 1879 doesn't meet the WP rules for neutrality. I proposed:

  1. The crisis sharpened on February 14, 1879 when Chilean armed forces occupied the port city of Antofagasta, [3]
  2. Some authors set the beginning of the war with the first naval battles, others on February 14, 1879 when Chilean armed forces, enthusiastic welcomed by the population, occupied the port city of Antofagasta (83% Chilean population), as the Bolivian authorities pretended to auction the confiscated property of Chilean CSFA, although the first battle occurred in Topater on 23 March 1879, after the Bolivian Declaration of War and before the Chilean Declaration of War.[4] [5]

Both proposals have been reverted by DS, those only proposal has been The War of the Pacific started on February 14, 1879. There is no mention of any other dates or sources.

I ask DS to make a proposal considering the other sources that have analysed the significance of the 14 February (Sater, Farcau, and Pike). --Keysanger (Talk) 09:53, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Darkness Shines[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Sorry, I have been very busy the last few weeks, and I am currently very ill. I will try and make a statement within a few days. Darkness Shines (talk) 21:46, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Eduardo Eddy Ramirez[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by 210.50.245.62[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

WP:Talk:War of the Pacific#RfC: Which are the relevant facts for the LEDE regarding the 14 February 1879? discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Administrative note: I've notified User:Darkness Shines about this case.-- KeithbobTalk 15:20, 18 September 2014 (UTC) I've also added and notified two other users who were involved in the dispute on the talk page.-- KeithbobTalk 15:37, 18 September 2014 (UTC) PS I'm not opening this case, just trying to help get it ready for another volunteer to take and moderate.-- KeithbobTalk 21:26, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Gospel of Matthew[edit]

Symbol wait old.png – New discussion.
Filed by PiCo on 02:17, 18 September 2014 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

The dispute is about how Due and Undue Weight policy is to be understood.

Andrevan, who is a new editor on the article, wishes to add material about the date and composition-history of the gospel of Matthew, and other editors regard the additions as unnecessary because they over-represent minority views - undue weight, in other words.

In a nutshell: the majority of scholars believe that Gospel of Matthew (GM) was composed after 70 AD, a minority argue strongly for a pre-70 date. This isn't in dispute between editors. We mention it in the lead and again in the "setting and date" section, with RS.

Andrevan wants to add more on the minority viewpoint, specifically from a scholar named Maurice Casey (note that nobody denies Casey is RS). Other editors almost unanimously (one exception) feel: (a) the question of date is already adequately covered, and (b) adding more about the minority view would unbalance coverage of the topic.

There's an important extra point: Casey's idea isn't just for an early (pre-70 AD) date, but for a very early one, about 50-60 AD. So far as I know he's the only scholar who holds this view. It's been pointed out to Andrevan that Casey's view has failed to gain traction in the academic community, but Andrevan's reply was that "academic traction" isn't a policy. My answer was that "traction" is indeed a policy, it's how we tell how much weight to give to different views.

Given that neither side has managed to convince the other, it seems that an edit war is looming - quite unnecessarily in my view.


Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Extensive discussion on article talk page, otherwise no action - but Andrevan has now made a charge that all those who take a view opposite to his is a sock puppet/meat puppet (see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/PiCo) I don't mind saying I find this worrying if it means an escalation from a looming edit-war into warfare through wiki-lawyering.

How do you think we can help?

Can someone please look at the talk page and give us an opinion on how the Due Weight policy applies to the question of coverage of a minority viewpoint in general and the Casey viewpoint in particular.

(Incidentally, I'm fine with the current sock-puppet investigation, but it's a sign of escalation and that's a concern).

Summary of dispute by Andrevan[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

I was introduced to this issue through the Mediation Committee as a mediator assigned to it. I am an atheist software engineer with no particular interest or knowledge of the subject area, but have since learned quite a bit about it. Many of the other editors have WP:COI as Christians and haven't fully disclosed their involvement with academia, missionary and/or clergy as far as I know. We closed the mediation as successful but it appears that it is not resolved. Ret.Prof is the user who is pushing to include the minority theories in the article. He has a tendency to communicate through walls of text which are unclear, and is ignorant of policy and etiquette. However, he persists in raising his complaint due to what I see as, at its root, a valid WP:NPOV issue with this article. At the kernel of this is the idea that a group of orthodox Christian editors are cherry-picking a POV, and excluding others, which conforms with their idea of the academic consensus in violation of WP:RS/AC and WP:RNPOV. It is true that these minority theories should probably not appear in the lead section of the article as Ret.Prof has requested. However, his opponents claim that including these reliably-sourced minority theories with significant adherents in the main article AT ALL, violates WP:FRINGE and WP:WEIGHT. There are a number of theories which pertain to the subject and are not linked at all from the main article: the Augustinian hypothesis, Griesbach hypothesis, Q+/Papias hypothesis, and Hebrew Gospel hypothesis. Including no reference at all for the theories is not proportional to the fact that they do regularly appear in reliable sources about this topic. It has been suggested by Ret.Prof, who also claims to be a non-Christian, that these theories are associated with Jewish, non-religious and Eastern Orthodox perspectives into Western Christianity, leading to this incidence of bias. Maurice Casey, an academic with notable peer-reviewed publications, was a lapsed or non-Christian. Therefore this is an instance of systemic bias masquerading as a consensus, and reliable sources are being excluded at the expense of NPOV. Andrevan@ 02:37, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Please note I do not think there is a conspiracy. Systemic bias could arise simply by the self-reinforcing lack of NPOV on the part of a group of editors with blind spots. Andrevan@ 03:08, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Ret.Prof[edit]

Fringe: 50-60 CE date for Matthew

WP:Fringe theories: "A Wikipedia article should not make a fringe theory appear more notable or more widely accepted than it is". Casey 2014. p 96 is as follows:

I conclude that the Gospel of Matthew is a major source for our knowledge of the life and teaching of Jesus, written c. 50–60 ce.

WP:Fringe theories:To be notable, at least one reliable secondary source must have commented on it, disparaged it, or discussed it. Here again WP is clear! Such a topic is not fringe

There is nothing "new" about the 50 CE date. "Christian scholars" have argued in favor of it for years. What is new is a heavyweight Non-Christian historian now supporting it! Maurice Casey is a respected non-Christian scholar and for him come out in support of a 50-60 date for Matthew is notable. Such material MUST be written from a NPOV. This policy cannot be overruled even by a very large number of user accounts working together. Therefore the early 50 ce date must be included in the article on the Gospel of Matthew. As far as I am concerned, this is the only outstanding issue that has yet to be resolved...but it is an important one. IE Only ONE issue not TWO!

  • Serious DR/N violation: This noticeboard is only about article content, not about user conduct. Please remove all comments about other editors. - Ret.Prof (talk) 13:02, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by PiCo[edit]

Just restate and also expand on what I wrote above. There are two issues, not one as I stated previously, the two being the date of GM and its composition history. For both the relevant policy is NPOV, which says that NPOV means "representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." So does the existing article represent "all significant views"? It says, re the date, that most scholars believe GM was composed after 70 CE and that a minority opinion holds it was before. This is supported by a RS and several others could be cited as well. Re composition history, there's an entire paragraph on authorship and another on sources, both thoroughly sourced.

Andrevan needs to demonstrate that Casey's opinion regarding the date (50 CE) is so significant that it can't be subsumed under a general statement. He also needs to demonstrate that the Augustinian and other hypotheses on the sources behind Matthew are equally significant. He also needs to demonstrate that any scholar at all supports the idea of an Aramaic or Hebrew original version of GM (he notes Casey and another scholar named Edwards, but has misunderstood what both are saying). PiCo (talk) 04:29, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by StAnselm[edit]

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I identify as a Christian, but I reject Andrevan's claim that this disqualifies me from editing the article. In fact, I personally hold to a pre-70 date for Matthew, but I acknowledge that it is a minority position. The early date in itself is not fringe, but a date of 50 possibly is. The connections made between Casey and an Aramaic gospel seem to be dubious, but in any case it would be better to quote someone like R. T. France, whose commentary has received more coverage in secondary sources. I don't think it would necessarily be undue weight to discuss the usual reasons for a pre-70 date: the dating of Luke-Acts and the lack of mention of the temple's destruction. However, a discussion of these reasons should be accompanied by a discussion of the reasons for the majority view. In other words, I would like to see the whole section expanded. StAnselm (talk) 06:53, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Ignocrates[edit]

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Andrevan is attempting to enforce what he sees as a WP:NPOV violation by shoehorning a tiny minority view into the article. Edit-warring and several vaguely-worded threats on user talk pages have resulted in a trip to ANI, and now we have just had a sockpuppet investigation rejected as a fishing expedition. There is an ongoing assumption of bad faith - Christian editors, using their Christian sources to push a Christian POV - that has brought progress on the article to a standstill. We are here to resolve the content part of this dispute if possible. The dispute began over an early date for the Gospel of Matthew proposed by Maurice Casey. Casey, while a notable scholar, has an idiosyncratic view of the Aramaic origins of Matthew. The majority of editors on the page consider an early date based on that unique conjecture to be WP:UNDUE. More seriously, Andrevan, who has admitted to knowing nothing about the subject, has recently introduced a number of new topics to include in the article, which he claims are being deliberately suppressed due to systemic bias. Ignocrates (talk) 02:45, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Ret.Prof continues to insist there are "a very large number of user accounts working together", as he did in a recently withdrawn request for arbitration, under the assumption of a WP:CONSPIRACY. Ignocrates (talk) 16:43, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Rbreen[edit]

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I am not impressed with the claim that "a group of orthodox Christian editors" are trying to dominate the discussion. From what I see, we have a fairly diverse group of editors who take the content very seriously. I don't think people's religious beliefs are relevant here, nor do I see that as influencing the dispute. (For what it's worth, I am an atheist, and I don't think any editors should feel compelled to disclose their religious views - it's clear we have a variety of views here) And what does "these theories are associated with Jewish, non-religious and Eastern Orthodox perspectives into Western Christianity" even mean?

As far as I can see this is part of a long-running dispute in which Ret.Prof has attempted to have his own personal views - constructed by original research out of a selection of valid sources - included in the article. There have traditionally been New Testament writers, usually very conservative ones, who have argued for a pre-70 date for Matthew, largely because it supported the view of apostolic authorship. That idea died a death a generation ago - the consensus is now pretty much the one in the current article. The fact that a scholar like Casey can advance the idea of pre-70 authorship, completely separate from the traditional standpoint, is a sign of the maturity of the discussion. But so far it's just Casey, in a popular book, and until we find out whether the idea is taken seriously by academic writers we cannot pretend that this an academic running an idea up the flagpole. Personally, I have nothing against a pre-70 date - the consensus is a bit stale now, and could do with being challenged - but we can't predict where scholarship will go, and must stick with the picture as it is now. --Rbreen (talk) 20:38, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by In ictu oculi[edit]

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  • Seriously? - it will take me time to get up to date with this and then give a reading, but if it is the case as stated above that an new contributor - Andrevan has been supporting RetProf's perennial attempts to add WP:SYNTHESIS re Papias and Hebrew Matthew then does it need Dispute resolution, shouldn't it be sufficient to notify projects and get experienced WP Religion editors returning to the page to maintain the article's quality? In ictu oculi (talk) 02:36, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by John Carter[edit]

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Summary of dispute by Evensteven[edit]

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Summary of dispute by JudeccaXIII[edit]

I wasn't involved as much in the Matthew debate. Maybe like three or four responses from me. I did not support Ret.Prof on Casey's views. Simply this, Casey is just one scholar. It wasn't enough to convince me, and I did some research; And there was little suggestion from other sources that agree or mentioned such similar ideals like Matthew first being written in Hebrew. The date of composition is arguable. There are many dates of composition online. A good average timeline of composition based on online sources would between 50 through 100 or 110 CE. It was rare though that I saw 50 CE being the actual date of composition in agreement with scholars. -- That's all -- JudeccaXIII (talk) 00:40, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
Note: As I said before, I don't agree with Ret.Prof, and the user seemed not to keep on with the discussion. After that, I just ignored the discussion page. -- JudeccaXIII (talk) 01:25, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Tgeorgescu[edit]

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Ret.Prof claimed to be non-Christian? Seriously? Has he deconverted?[1] By his clothing[2] he must be a clergyman. His take on the Gospel of Matthew is somewhere between conservative evangelical and Christian fundamentalist. I was once a Christian, but I have deconverted many years ago. I am now a pandeist. These being said, I do not know what our own religious opinions have to do with rendering the majority viewpoint of Bible scholars. Western scholarship against Eastern-Orthodox scholarship is a false dichotomy, since Bible scholars are not employed in the main US and European universities for their religious faith commitments, but for their historical expertise. I agree with PiCo's comments from the talk page of the article and as a non-Christian I do not see PiCo's take as religiously biased. Tgeorgescu (talk) 13:47, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

References

Gospel of Matthew discussion[edit]

Hello. I am a dispute resolution volunteer here at the Wikipedia Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. This does not imply that I have any special authority or that my opinions should carry any extra weight; it just means that I have not been previously involved in this dispute and that I have some experience helping other people to resolve their disputes. Right now I am waiting for everyone to make their statements before opening this up for discussion. in the meantime, I encourage everyone involved to review our Wikipedia:Dispute resolution and Wikipedia:Consensus pages. Thanks! There is one thing that I need everyone involved to understand right from the start; DRN is not a place to keep doing the same things that did not work on the article talk page. In particular, we only discuss article content, never user conduct. Many times, solving the content dispute also solves the user conduct issue. Do not talk about other editors. If anyone has a problem with this, let me know and we can discuss whether I should turn the case over to another dispute resolution volunteer. --Guy Macon (talk) 03:34, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Non-involved editor's comments[edit]

Although I am not directly involved in this specific discussion, it raises issues which have been concerning me for some time and the following comments may be helpful.

  1. The condition that "to be be notable a theory must be supported by at least one RS" seems to be a necessary condition, but not of itself sufficient. For example, John Allegro produced an theory about sacred mushrooms and the Eucharist. He was technically RS, but the idea met with total rejection from other academics and quickly became past history. Therefore, information about it was removed from the Wikipedia article.
  2. Editors should beware of "Phd-itis" (the need to produce some new and original ideas in order to make an academic name/career). It is only when theories are seriously discussed by other RS's, if only to be refuted, that they can be said to become notable. In the 1960-70s, if there was one agreed academic opinion on the Gospels, it was that "they were NOT biographies". In 1989 Richard A. Burridge produced a Ph.D. thesis that argued that they were ancient-style biographies. By about 1995 the thesis had been extensively discussed and was well on the way to becoming "a lasting contribution to scholarship" (Graham Stanton) (See What are the Gospels - 2nd Ed Eerdmans 2002, Cap 11 and Foreword) In short, academic impact or traction is necessary for a particular minority view of this type to qualify as worthy of "due attention". Jpacobb (talk) 19:05, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

(Not involved either, have some knowledge of the subject having studied Biblical criticism as a topic of interest, but I am not Christian.) NPOV guide us to include all significant viewpoints that have been reported in sources that can be verified, and that are reliable. A minority viewpoint can be presented as such (that is explaining in the text that it is a novel or not widely held viewpoint if there are sources that describe it as such), but extra care should be applied not to use Wikipedia to "promote" a minority view above its current standing in the domain in which that viewpoint is being expressed. Minority viewpoints are easy to spot using a number of available metrics, in this case one could use metrics related to the number of sources available, the number of citations in Google scholar, and other such. - Cwobeel (talk) 19:22, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Another point to remember, for those of us that are passionate about our views and want Wikipedia to reflect “the truth” is that Wikipedia does not need you - Cwobeel (talk) 19:29, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Talk:GamerGate[edit]

Symbol wait old.png – New discussion.
Filed by Retartist on 06:12, 18 September 2014 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

The central issue in this dispute revolves around WP:BLP, and WP:RS when one side of a dispute (The media) is attacking the other side; who is claiming that the media is corrupt. One side of the issue (the media and some notable people) are claiming that the WHOLE issue is mysogony and harassment while the other is claiming that this is about journalism ethics. On the talk page several users are insisting that little to no mention of ethics should be included and that per the sources the whole thing should be about mysogony and sexual harassment etc. The other side is claiming that, while harassment has happened; the issue is about the reliability and COI of the sources used. The talk page is littered with threads discussing the issue with SOME editors becoming very uncivil (claims of mysogony on the part of editors) when neutrality is brought up.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have discussed the issue on the talk page and then attempted to start a RFC (which was quickly shut down before any non-involved editor could comment)

How do you think we can help?

Bringing the discussion to a board to make sure people keep a level head, preventing the talk page from being clogged up and also preventing users from dis-engaging from the discussion because they disagree

Summary of dispute by PseudoSomething[edit]

I think the big problem with this article is the common voice vs the media. It is a very weird problem, where there is no head of the GamerGate movement, but we can see the targets of the 'Media corruption' writing articles that label this as Misogyny. Sadly, some of the articles used are biased (which isn't a bad thing), but some of them also have authors who have thrown extreme insults at the Pro-GG side (The Time Author), or have funded someone in the middle of the controversy (The New Yorker Author), and a few other problematic articles. While the Pro-GG side also will have biased articles, there are plenty of sources(Forbes, Slate, and many other sites) that I and others have rounded up and presented that fully show what caused the movement, what the movement is looking for (or at least the main points, since there is no head of the movement), and what has happened. We also have tangible results, such as ethics policy changes with Defy Media (The Escapist Magazine Owners), Destructoid, and Kotaku, as well as TFYC (a game jam for women) getting fully funded, while many of the anti_GG articles focus on the narrative of one person, many times over. Yet, all of these sources are being ignored, as you can tell.

While many sources presented show the movement is about Journalism ethics and other things, many people on the talk page still push the Misogyny side. By this I mean people saying "We are playing right into their narrative", people who are passionate and say things like "The massive quantity of libel and rage that this movement has generated. GamerGate got a few minor sites to try pacify them, and screwed up a whole lot of women's lives for absolutely no reason. That's the effect of your movement", and others just telling anyone trying to present evidence and articles for the Pro-GG side to "Shut Up". I honestly believe that the article currently is portraying wrong information over GamerGate, and it will be an issue that will persist because of the amount of people pushing the 'Hatred of Women' position. I honestly don't know a good remedy, since the sources have been brought and nothing has changed. PseudoSomething (talk) 00:34, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Masem[edit]

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It's not an issue WP can deal with. When you have one side (the proGG side) that is fragmented without a clear voice, and where a few have opted to harass and attack other people, no reputable media is going to find sympathy in that. As such, all reliably-sourced articles on GamerGate (such as the New Yorker, the Washington Post, the Telegraph) all have to start that GG arose from what appears to be a misogyny-driven attack on specific game devs. That said, several also try to get into the more rational side of the proGG side, explaining their position of wanting journalistic integrity and other reasonable points of discussion. So the article should (and does, presently) go into the idea about these other reasons, that they've been boiling in the game fandom for years, and with the combination of the attacks on the game devs and the media response, is trying to be pushed out with a louder voice. The media just have not fully seen that voice, again due to the fractured nature of the proGG aspect and the fact that there are still people harassing the various targets of this. We can cover it, we cannot take the position that GG is 100% about misogynist harassment, but we also cannot hide that fact or bury it in the weaker claims about the other facets the proGG side want to cover. I beliee the article in its present lock-downed position attempts to make this argument properly without trying to skew what actually happen, irregardless how ugly it was. --MASEM (t) 06:26, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Ryulong[edit]

Masem hits the nail on the head. It is not the fault of the users reported here that the sources for the subject only tell what Retartist (and other pro-GamerGate editors that have been disrupting the talk page) define as one side of the debate because that's all that's out there for the topic and the other point of view desired in the article cannot be found in what Wikipedia deems as reliable sources.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 06:50, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by NorthBySouthBaranof[edit]

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This is quite simply an issue where the reliable sources are effectively unanimous in saying something. Given that fact, we are required by policy to present that as the predominant viewpoint in the encyclopedia. The above user, and others, have complained that literally every mainstream media source from Time to the Washington Post to NPR's Marketplace is somehow "biased" and unusable, and would have us use YouTube videos, dubious gaming blogs and Photoshopped screenshots instead. This we cannot do, obviously. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 08:42, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by TheRedPenOfDoom[edit]

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Dispute resolution by the named parties will be useless as the flood of new SPAs will continue to come in who, like the filer, are oblivious (and hostile) to the understanding of WP:UNDUE that we need to present the subject as the mainstream reliable sources see it, not as gamergaters wish it to be perceived. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 11:18, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

And I am not going to waste my time beating the dead horse on this page as well as the main page. Decline to participate in a pointless exercise. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 11:35, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Talk:GamerGate discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Talk:Trial of Oscar Pistorius#Reasonable foresight[edit]

Pictogram voting wait blue.svg – Discussion in progress.
Filed by HelenOnline on 06:49, 18 September 2014 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

Dynamic IP from Chicago made the following initial unsourced edit:

"However, Judge Masipa said a reasonable person in the same circumstances would have foreseen this. In the light of this, his actions were clearly negligent [(for example in failing to alert security)]"

Edit summary: Verdict: The editor is mistaken. Masipa J ruled Pistorius's negligence lay in failing to take measures such as alerting security. The issue of foresight had already been disposed of wrt the question of intent.

I reverted the edit for the two reasons stated in my edit summary (de=dolus eventualis and ch=culpable homicide) and on the IP's talk page: rm WP:UNSOURCED, there are 2 aspects of foresight, his subjective foresight relating to de and a reasonable person's relating to ch

Dynamic IP from Chicago then repeated the exact same edit except with a source, an interview with a legal expert David Dadic: No. Foreseeability applies to evantualis, not culpable homicide. See for example David Dadic cited. Editor's remarks not in fact supported by citations provided. Probably this section needs the attention of an expert.

The source was used in an article section for the court's verdict, which Dadic disagrees with, overwriting the judge's explanation for the verdict (which is sourced) and adding details for which we have much better sources (since added). I contend that this source is essentially an opinion piece and is not a reliable source for this section of the article (although it could go in a separate reactions section with attribution).

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I started a section on the talk page, where Dynamic IP from Chicago responded. I considered their comments carefully and did my best to incorporate them in the article as follows, with more reliable sources where necessary:

"[Judge Masipa] said a reasonable person in the same circumstances would have 'foreseen the possibility that if he fired four shots whoever was behind the toilet [door] might be struck and die as a result'. She said Pistorius 'failed to take any steps to avoid the death', 'acted too hastily and used excessive force' and his actions were clearly negligent."

Dynamic IP from Chicago appears to be aggrieved that I considered their talk page comments (BRRD), sought common ground and then tried a new edit in line with WP:BRD (BRRDB). They appear to interpret this as me conceding that they were "correct" all along and I was out of line interfering with their edits. I have tried explaining how BRD works on their talk page.

I also tried asking for an opinion on the Dadic source at WP:RSN before coming here but received no response so have removed my thread there.

How do you think we can help?

I think it would help for an uninvolved editor to assess the situation and clarify whether the initial and/or subsequent edit of Dynamic IP from Chicago is acceptable. Dynamic IP from Chicago does not accept my view, and we therefore need a neutral editor to mediate in this matter.

Summary of dispute by Dynamic IP from Chicago[edit]

I'm not really overly bothered by this "dispute". The source I provided was a piece by Deutsche Welle. Of course it's a reliable source, an interview about the verdict with a noted South African litigation lawyer. Nothing to dispute. Where I do take exception with the editor is her entirely spurious and vexatious accusation of edit-warring. If that is really so, then we are both equally culpable, since we each reverted each other just once. I have asked her to apologise and she has steadfastly refused, warning me on my Talk page of a WP:BOOMERANG effect if I ask her peers to review her conduct. My account has yet to be auto-confirmed and I haven't finished working through the Wikipdia tutorial. At the weekend, if I haven't received the apology and assurances I set out on the Talk page of the article, I shall indeed ask for her conduct to be reviewed. Nothing more I wish to contribute or involve myself with here. Dynamic IP from Chicago (talk) 16:25, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

(added) For what it's worth, and to avoid the editor's malicious charge that I'm not interested in settling the "dispute", this clarifies the point of my edit https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Trial_of_Oscar_Pistorius&diff=625873175&oldid=625831463:
"Yes, but the point of my edit was that Judge Masipa did not say Pistorius was "clearly" negligent in not foreseeing that he might kill the person behind the door. Objectively he was negligent in not foreseeing that, but there were subjective elements to consider as well. I'm not sure, but I suspect Judge Masipa's dilemma was that having released Pistorius from the charge of common murder of Reeva Steenkamp because he genuinely did not foresee she might behind the door, it then seems a stretch to convict him of her culpable homicide for not foreseeing he might kill her by shooting through the door. At any rate Judge Masipa was at pains to point out other aspects of his actions which were negligent, and it was these aspects she described as "clearly" negligent: "I am of the view that the accused acted too hastily and used excessive force. In the circumstances it is clear his conduct was negligent." This distiction was carefully observed in the two sources your edit cited, nevertheless your editor felt justified to adjust the emphasis in the way they did, that Pisorius was "clearly" negligent in not foreseeing that he might kill the person behind the door - but that's not what Masipa J said."
The editor subsequently accepted this, as is evident from her somewhat studied and clumsily verbose edits of the relevant passage. It is this sense that I aver there is no dispute here, though I am nevertheless very aggrieved indeed by her conduct towards me. Dynamic IP from Chicago (talk) 18:42, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Dodger67[edit]

Thanks, but no thanks, I'm too busy with other matters to get embroiled in this process. My contributions to the article have been minor anyway so I do not really consider myself "involved". FWIW, I consider HelenOnline's concern to maintain a very clear distinction between the judgment of the court itself and other peoples' opinions of the judgment (regardless of whether they are noted legal scholars or merely wannabe celebs tweeting vacuous blather) to be valid. Opinions are cheap - everybody has at least one. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 06:58, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Trial of Oscar Pistorius#Reasonable foresight discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Hi, thank you for coming to DRN and for your willingness to participate in a moderated discussion. I am opening this case for moderated discussion and resolution. Please limit your comments to discussion of sources and text. I will not tolerate any name calling, assumptions of bad faith or derogatory comments. First, I want to isolate the parameters of our discussion and agree on the core of the dispute. My understanding is that core of the dispute is the insertion of the text and source contained in this edit. Is this correct?-- KeithbobTalk 21:38, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that is correct as far as the nominating editor is concerned. But I stress that really there is no dispute here as the nominating editor has already edited, on her own admission, though in rather more verbose terms, addressing the issue raised This was essentially that Judge Masipa did *not* say that Pistorius was "clearly" negligent in not forseeing he would kill the person behind the door. She said that objectively he was indeed negligent, but there were other aspects (for example his haste and the excessive use of force) in which he was negligent and it was here that she said he was "clearly" negligent. The sources cited were in fact careful to maintain the distinction.
My dispute with this editor concerne her vexatious accusation of edit-warring and I shall raise that for review at another forum after I have completed my study of Wikipedia. Dynamic IP from Chicago (talk) 23:57, 19 September 2014 (UTC)