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This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution and get assistance to the right place; request for comment, mediation or other noticeboard, if involving other issues. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button Button rediriger.png to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember guidelines and policy when discussing issues. Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN.

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Case Created Last volunteer edit Last modified
Title Status User Time User Time User Time
Talk:Daisaku Ikeda 4NeedAssist Catflap08 (t) 2015-02-06 08:53:00 Wikishagnik (t) 2015-03-01 13:59:00 Starrynuit (t) 2015-03-02 03:46:00
Talk:Loma Linda_University_Medical_Center 4NeedAssist 76.174.65.156 (t) 2015-02-18 01:58:00 Keithbob (t) 2015-02-25 18:48:00 Keithbob (t) 2015-02-25 18:48:00
24 (TV series) 4NeedAssist Jimthing (t) 2015-02-23 23:00:00 Keithbob (t) 2015-02-26 23:15:00 Jimthing (t) 2015-03-02 06:33:00
Talk:Helmut Diez 2In Progress Hans-Jürgen Hübner (t) 2015-02-26 16:56:00 Keithbob (t) 2015-03-02 04:03:00 Rhode Island Red (t) 2015-03-02 04:57:00
User talk:Grillmaster423#March_2015 7Closed Grillmaster423 (t) 2015-03-01 03:52:00 TransporterMan (t) 2015-03-01 04:39:00 TransporterMan (t) 2015-03-01 04:39:00
Talk:Overland Limited_(UP_train)#"Corrections" 1New Mackensen (t) 2015-03-01 17:30:00 None n/a Centpacrr (t) 2015-03-02 01:13:00
Last updated by DRN clerk bot (talk) at 07:00, 2 March 2015 (UTC)



Current disputes[edit]

Talk:Daisaku Ikeda[edit]

Pictogram voting wait red.png – Needs attention.
Filed by Catflap08 on 08:53, 6 February 2015 (UTC).


Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

I researched a quote via the WP:RX since the quote (used within another quote by Montgomergy) was disputed in the articles on Daisaku Ikeda and Soka Gakkai. As soon as I insist that critical issues should not be deleted I seem to run into a conflict with the same editor. Same occurred on the Toynbee quote.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

At one stage quoted Montgomery pages 186-187 completly. Asked WP:RX to find Murata quote in order to clarify who hit whom.

How do you think we can help?

An end to the constant deletion of sourced material not in favour of advocates of SG/SGI and or Ikeda.

Summary of dispute by Hoary[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Under the heading "Remarkable deletions", the article's talk page shows a conflict over what is said in two books about an incident in which, it has been claimed in the article, Daisaku Ikeda abused and hit an older priest. The two books in question are David Montgomery, Fire in the lotus: The dynamic Buddhism of Nichiren (ISBN 1852740914); and Kiyoaki Murata, Japan's new Buddhism: An objective account of Soka Gakkai (ISBN 978-0834800403). It's not always clear who has seen these books. I have never seen either, have no comment on the reliability of either book, and have never heard of one of the publishers.

A paragraph was summarily removed. This dismayed me. (See the talk page.)

There's a dispute on the talk page between User:Elemential1 (surprisingly, not named above) and User:Catflap08 on the talk page about exactly what Montgomery and Murata wrote. It's an odd dispute. Elemential1 claims that each book says precisely this or that; Catflap08 doesn't seem to agree or disagree but instead seems eager to argue around what the content of cited texts. He also seems to be saying that an objection to parts of a paragraph aren't good reason to remove it in toto.

Catflap08 then presents a long quotation from Montgomery. If it's credible, it certainly shows the thuggishness of the organization that Ikeda would soon head. What it doesn't show is what Ikeda had to do with this. Catflap08 appears to think that Ikeda must have been involved and therefore this belongs in an article about him.

Numerous editors of the page (many of these SPAs) have long been unhappy about quotations from an article Polly Toynbee published about meeting Ikeda. There have been attempts to do away with all of this material, but various editors (including Catflap08 and myself) have opposed these, and none of these attempts has been successful. There have been demands that this journalistic account should be balanced by other journalistic or quasi-journalistic accounts; I have welcomed this idea. At one point I noticed that the article had developed odd descriptions of Toynbee and a book in which she's quoted at length; I brought this up.

The article was protected. Starrynuit suggested changes. As an admin, I accepted some, rejected others. These acceptances and rejections didn't trigger much visible dissatisfaction.

Alarm bells! I have been a participant in the editing of the article and have exercised my administrative superpowers on it. A dodgy combination, and in retrospect I regret this. I'd be happy to recuse myself from either (a) editorial involvement or (b) administrative involvement. Or, better, from both, because my interest in Ikeda is very minor.

Starrynuit added a somewhat hagiographic passage about Ikeda. Seventeen minutes later, Catflap08 removed it, with the edit summary WP:PEACOCK.

I was struck by two things here. First, however vapid parts of the passage might be, they're not covered by WP:PEACOCK. I wrote this up at Talk:Daisaku_Ikeda#Peacock. Secondly and more seriously, Catflap08 seemed indignant when one faulty passage he seemed to like was deleted in toto, but he was quick to delete another faulty passage in toto. Why not approach the two in the same way? I therefore warned Catflap08 about the need for neutrality.

The talk page has now blown up with "Murata reference". Despite learning that Murata says that Toda hit the old priest and not learning that Murata says that Ikeda did, Catflap08 wanted (wants?) the article to continue to cite Murata as saying that Ikeda hit the old priest. (Though sometimes he says that he doesn't care.) -- Hoary (talk) 05:56, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Starrynuit[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Greetings, The sentence that I tried to correct and that Hoary ultimately deleted had long -- incorrectly -- cited Murata as saying that Ikeda admitted hitting the priest twice. The text of Murata reads, "Toda [not Ikeda] admitted hitting the priest 'twice' [p. 96] ..." This can be seen at http://books.google.ca/books?id=x8QKAAAAYAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=hitting

Murata's account of the Ogasawara Incident is disputed but that dispute is another matter; the inaccuracy of that one sentence in the article was the key issue here.

Thank you for your time. Starrynuit (talk) 06:45, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Elemential1[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Talk:Daisaku Ikeda discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Volunteer's Note: Welcome to the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. I'm neither taking this case nor opening it for discussion at this time, but just reminding the filing editor that it is his obligation to notify the other participants of this filing by leaving a note on their user talk pages. The template mentioned at the top of this page can be used for that purpose or a custom-written note. If those notices are not given in the next two or three days — and placing a notice on the article talk page will not suffice — this listing will be closed as abandoned. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:04, 6 February 2015 (UTC) @ TransporterMan Thanks for reminding me.--Catflap08 (talk) 15:42, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

While I agree I did not indeed mention User:Elemential1 I filed the DRN due to Hoary's posts of 5th February onwards. In those posts yHoary went on about changing the “Ikeda hitting” issue. May I remind Hoary that it was him/her who threatened me with a topic ban? In the articles affected and mentioning the incident I then simply included the Murata clippings, as in the beginning of the dispute it was (a) disputed if Ikeda was present (b) that Murata made such a statement on page 69 of his book – apparently he did. The question if Ikeda was present was resolved since I included the rather lengthy Montgomery quote. In contrast to Hoary I do hold quite a bit of literature on Nichiren Buddhism which I find to be quite useful when editing on matters relating to Nichiren Buddhism. The only book I did not have since long out of print is the Murata one. The only ones I bined a long long time ago are the “human revolution” ones by Mr. Ikeda (novels). The articles on Ikeda and SGI were reedited and it did not slip my attention that in due course Ikeda was alleged hitting too, hence my Resource Request‎ to find out if Murata made such a quote and who was hitting who. While Hoary did question my neutrality I do begin to have doubts on Hoary’s ability to exert powers as an admin. The amount of information available either in English, German or French on Nichiren Buddhism is limited. The information published on and offline on SG/SGI is mainly published by SG/SGI itself. It comes natural that critical matters are few and credibility of authors is even more vital then. I work on Nichiren related matters for nearly eight years now. I believe I was able to contribute to the nuts and bolts of Nichiren Buddhism within articles dealing with the matter in a credible non-promotional way. Am I neutral on SG/SGI? No. Knowing this and having made co-editors aware of that I keep my own edits on SG/SGI related articles to a bare minimum. I am not sure if Hoary is aware of the fact but the usual tactics of SG/SGI advocates is (online and offline) to discredit authors of resources critical of SG/SGI. This has been an ongoing issue as if one does not like the message kill the messenger so to speak. What I surely do not like is therefore to delete critical material. Recently another editor and me were involved to get another editor to include some more facts on SG/SGI’s beliefs and dogma – fruitless task. So in the end maybe Ikeda was building his first human pyramid as a peace activity while the priest was harassed in 1952 – how should I know. What I do know (a) Ikeda was present among the 47 involved (b) Murata did make that quote on page 69 (c) Toda is said to have been hitting. Also since Murata apparently did not only write one book I am surprised that Hoary did not include a “citation needed” tag on the disputed sentence first. It just puzzles me that Hoary always enters the scene when it comes to references critical of SG/SGI, references not in Japanese. On the Toynbee issue it was agreed that the online text does not qualify as a resource – now its harder for readers to read the article. Fine. Nevertheless the article existed, I have had the Guardian pdf and the one made available to me by the help of a Resource Request. Discrediting yet again the author of the article as some editors tried I find worrying. To quarrel about resources, who said what where is one thing to discredit me as an editor making sure critical issues are neither deleted nor censored is another one though. Since I was the one who got the Murata quotes why should it be me to insist that Ikeda was hitting the priest? The conclusions Hoary makes beat me and asking me to edit the body of the text seems bizarre while earlier threatening me with a topic ban. --Catflap08 (talk) 09:34, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
Volunteer's note: I will remind all parties to this case to be concise, be civil, and comment on content, not on contributors. The comments by some of the editors appear to contain lengthy complaints about other parties and are long. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:41, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for coming to DRN, I have been through the specifics of the discussion and am willing to volunteer for this case. I have no prior knowledge of the subject matter but I hope that won't interfere with mediation. I am going to notify Elemential1 as they seem to have been involved in a lot of the discussion. The first thing I would ask is in two or three sentences could you please tell me as specifically as possible what you hope would be different (or the same) in the article after DRN. For comparison please use this version of the article. I ask this in order for us all to see exactly where the nub of the dispute is. Please don't justify these inclusions in this section simply list them for now.SPACKlick (talk) 21:40, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

@Catflap08:'s desired outcomes[edit]

Higher protection level of article itself (registered editors only, no IP edits). No hidden or open censorship. End to defamation of authors (including journalists) and denying the existence of their work. No threats against my person or any other editor. --Catflap08 (talk) 12:10, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

@Catflap08: This board cannot change protection levels of an article. We also cannot take action against uncivil editors. If you have received threats to your person I would recommend you take them to the relevant administrators noticeboard
  • Could you be specific about what you believe is being censored currently?
  • Could you be specific about what work you believe the existence of is being denied?
  • Could you be specific about what authors are being defamed.
I am asking for specifics at this stage because a small point to focus on will help the discussion find the generalities. SPACKlick (talk) 12:37, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
The censorship is about sources used and an ongoing effort by some editors to discredit authors/journalists. It was even denied that Murata made such a claim i.e. that the page 69 in his work even exists as cited by Montgomery. At that point the issue was on Toda only. The defamation was about Toynbee (multiple editors involved). The threat against my person was to the effect of me being able to edit the article. --Catflap08 (talk) 13:02, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
That is still quite general. What sources would you like included in the article that are not currently? What from Murata/Montgomery would you like in the article. What about Toynbee would you like out of the article? This will struggle to move forward without specifics. SPACKlick (talk) 13:09, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

The fact should be included that according to Murata Toda hit the priest twice and DI was present. Please note that since the dispute started both articles (SGI and the one on DI) have been reedited in large parts. Both the Montgomery AND Murata page 69 quotes should simply be cited in a footnote at least – in full length. The notability of Ms. Toynbee and her account of meeting DI should no longer be disputed nor her reputation as a journalist belittled. And while in the swing of it – no quotes from fictional material (the novel “Human Revolution”) on incidents that happened in real life. --Catflap08 (talk) 13:26, 12 February 2015 (UTC) Please note that at the beginning of the dispute the complete section was once deleted on grounds that no such quote of Toda was recorded. Tough – Murata quote was found. --Catflap08 (talk) 20:02, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

@Hoary:'s desired outcomes[edit]

There's a passage within the section on "Books" that talks of the reactions of, and quotes comments by, Polly Toynbee. It's flagged "[relevant?]", "[better source needed]", and "[copyright violation?]". Remove the "[better source needed]", and "[copyright violation?]" flags, as the quotations appear in the article in the Guardian. (This article -- long, fascinating, and published long before everything in the newspaper was routinely uploaded to its website -- has been made available to a small number of editors of the page and I presume could be available to others.) The part flagged for relevance does indeed seem irrelevant to books. But this is not the part of the article where this passage has long resided. Move the passage back where it belongs (some section on Ikeda the person), and its relevance will again be clear. This aside, no particular request. -- Hoary (talk) 07:50, 12 February 2015 (UTC) Slightly edited for clarity 05:02, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

@Starrynuit:'s desired outcomes[edit]

Greetings; I do not have any dispute with the article as it is. Thank you very much Starrynuit (talk) 06:05, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

In that case are there any particular changes that have been made and reverted recently that you specifically think would detract from the article? SPACKlick (talk) 12:38, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Greetings,

Thank you kindly for asking.

1) I agree with Hoary’s suggestion about the Polly Toynbee quotations.

2) Re: “The fact should be included that according to Murata Toda hit the priest twice and DI was present.”

a) Murata pages 96-97 are on the subject at hand (not page 69) ([1])

b) Neither Murata nor Montgomery states that DI (Daisaku Ikeda) was present at this alleged hitting, therefore it is not appropriate to include such a statement in the article.

c) Montgomery states that what happened after Toda encountered Ogasawara is not clear and he describes Murata’s statement about Toda hitting the priest as a “claim”. Montgomery states, “What happened next [after Toda encountered Ogasawara] is not clear. According to Ikeda, Toda reasoned calmly with Ogasawara, demanding an apology, while the old man 'drooled at the mouth' and 'howled like a rabid dog.' But Murata claims that Toda told him in an interview that he struck the priest 'twice' ([Murata, p.] 96).” ([Montgomery ([2]:187)

d) Therefore, given the Neutral Point of View policy not to state seriously contested assertions as facts, it does not seem appropriate to state that Toda hit the priest, and certainly not to state that Ikeda was present at this alleged hitting, for which there is no cited source at all.

Thank you very much again. Starrynuit (talk) 02:08, 13 February 2015 (UTC)


  • Note: (I hope this comment is not out of line). I don't know why anyone else didn't translate it, but I posted a Japanese source on the Talk page, here, that states Toda hit the priest.

    行ってみると、当時の戸田城聖会長を先頭に青年部の屈強な若者がずらりと並んでいた。
    呼び出しの理由は簡単にいうと、戦前慈聞師が唱えていた教義解釈が間違っていたのだから謝れというわけだ。師が拒否すると戸田会長が殴った...

    It also says that the priest was said to have suffered internal bleeding, and that Toda was taken into custody and held for two days while the incident was investigated.

    急を聞きつけて地元消防団がかけつけたため慈聞師は宿坊に帰され、騒ぎは収まったが、このリンチで師は内出血のため四週間も休まなくてはならなかったという。
    この事件で戸田会長は警察に二日間拘留され、取調べを受けている。

    --Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 17:59, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
References
  1. ^ Murata, Kiyoaki (1969). Japan’s new Buddhism: an objective account of Soka Gakkai ([1st ed.]. ed.). New York: Weatherhill. ISBN 978-0834800403. 
  2. ^ Montgomery, Daniel B. (1991). Fire in the Lotus: The Dynamic Buddhism of Nichiren. London: Mandala. ISBN 978-1852740917. 

@Elemential1:'s desired outcomes[edit]

Ok so to summarise the comments above.

@John Carter:'s desired outcomes[edit]

Hi all. I'm just butting in here as a somewhat involved editor, and I would be very happy to see @Shii:, one of our more knowledgable editors in general on Eastern religions, to comment here too. I think the primary things to address here are:

  • 1) determining the relevance and amount of weight to be given to reliably sourced material which is not particularly positive regarding the subject, both in this article and other SG articles
  • 2) a consensus be reached regarding the number of articles and subjects of articles relating to the various SG topics, including this one. Although I am not sure myself of the amount and depth of coverage of the life of this individual compared to others, I note that there are at least three articles relating directly to the life of L. Ron Hubbard and various periods of it, and think similar might be possible here, depending on the amount and notability of material available.
  • 3) broadly determine what content which can be reasonably considered to be of "encyclopedic merit" regarding both this individual and SG in general should be placed in which article related to that topic.

Anyway, that's what comes to mind to me as a reasonable starting point. John Carter (talk) 18:18, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Murata, Montgomery, Hitting incident[edit]

  1. Include that Murata Toda hit the priest twice and DI was present
  2. Cite Montgomery in footnote at full length
  3. Cite Murata in footnote at full length

These three, if I'm understanding correctly all refer to the same section of content and are disputed as to what quotes to include, what to say in Wikipedia's voice and what to not say at all. Could each of you summarise your arguments for what to include and where in the article. Again, try and keep it to three or four sentences. Please do not discuss each others contributions before I respond.


@Catflap08:[edit]

Nowhere in the quotes is it stated that Ikeda hit the priest. Whoever included that later is none of my business and if sources exist who say so include them. The Montgomery source simply states that Ikeda was in the mob. I was the one who made the Murata quotes available, as some suggested the Montgomery quote would be wrong. I have the full Montgomery quote and would include it in full length as a footnote just like the Murata one. Please note that in the beginning of this discussion the complete reference to the incident was deleted. We have so far established that the Murata quote exists, which was disputed, and that Ikeda according to sources was present. The “incident” as such is not limited to Toda hitting the priest – that was the climax – but the incident is about finding the priest, pulling off his robes, etc. etc. … the issue here is that the incident took place. --Catflap08 (talk) 16:06, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

@Hoary:[edit]

In the first item, is "Murata Toda" a typo for "Murata says that Toda" (or similar), for "Toda", or for something else? Anyway, I'm unimpressed by somebody's mere presence at a violent event. If there's evidence that this happened, and that Ikeda played an important role, then say what the incident was and what his role was in it; if there isn't, then don't. Whatever is said in the article about this (if anything), source it well: in the relevant footnote(s)/reference(s), quote [I think you mean "quote" rather than "cite"] as much from Murata or Montgomery or both as to establish this, and no more. -- Hoary (talk) 11:51, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

@Starrynuit:[edit]

Greetings, Suggest that the Polly Toynbee quotations be moved to a new Controversies section in the article. Given the Neutral Point of View policy not to state seriously contested assertions as facts and given the cited statement from Montgomery that “What happened next [after Toda encountered Ogasawara] is not clear.”, it does not seem appropriate to state that Toda hit the priest, and certainly not to state that Ikeda was present at this alleged hitting, since there is no cited source for the latter statement. Thank you again, Starrynuit (talk) 06:03, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

P. Toynbee comments[edit]

  1. Accept Ms Toynbee as a source of note and include referred sections without critique of the journalist.
  2. Move Ms Toynbee's section to the relevant location

I don't see a dispute here but maybe I'm misreading someone. The section currently reads

The 1976 publication of Choose Life: A Dialogue (in Japanese, Nijusseiki e no taiwa) is the published record of dialogues and correspondences that began in 1971 between Ikeda and British historian Arnold J. Toynbee about the “convergence of East and West”[137] on contemporary as well as perennial topics ranging from the human condition to the role of religion and the future of human civilization. Toynbee’s 12-volume A Study of History had been translated into Japanese, which along with his lecture tours and periodical articles about social, moral and religious issues gained him popularity in Japan. To an expat’s letter critical of Toynbee’s association with Ikeda and Soka Gakkai, Toynbee wrote back: “I agree with Soka Gakkai on religion as the most important thing in human life, and on opposition to militarism and war."[138] To another letter critical of Ikeda, Toynbee responded: “Mr. Ikeda’s personality is strong and dynamic and such characters are often controversial. My own feeling for Mr. Ikeda is one of great respect and sympathy.”[139] British journalist and political commentator Polly Toynbee, an avowed atheist, was invited to meet Ikeda in 1984 in memory of her grandfather. (According to Peter Popham, writing about Tokyo architecture and culture, Ikeda "was hoping to tighten the public connection between himself and Polly Toynbee's famous grandfather, Arnold Toynbee, the prophet of the rise of the East."[140]) Polly Toynbee described Ikeda as "a short, round man with slicked down hair, wearing a sharp Western suit"; they talked from "throne-like" chairs in "an enormous room" reached via "corridors of bowing girls dressed in white".[141][relevant? – discuss] She wrote "I have met many powerful men--prime ministers, leaders of all kinds--but I have never in my life met anyone who exudes such an aura of absolute power as Mr. Ikeda."[142] In The Guardian on May 19, 1984, she also voiced the wish that her grandfather would not have endorsed their dialogue, Choose Life: A Dialogue. She wrote, "I telephoned a few people round the world who had been visited by Ikeda. There was a certain amount of discomfort at being asked, and an admission by several that they felt they had been drawn into endorsing him."[143][better source needed][copyright violation?]

Are there any disputed phrases and are there any suggestions as to where in the article which bits should go? Please feel free to discuss this, please remember to be civil and discuss the content not the contributor SPACKlick (talk) 14:43, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Please do also take into account the respective talk(s) on the issue which comes up on a regular basis more or less. To my mind the quote and references made to Ms. Toynbee are exactly in the right place. The article was not written out of the blue, but because Ms. Toynbee was invited by SGI/SG as she was the granddaughter of the late Arnold Toynbee. As a matter of fact those quotes are actually missing in which she elaborates what she suspected to be SGI/SG’s motifs to invite her in the first place. Alternatively I would add larger quotes in an appropriate footnote. Also is was hinted at in the respective talks on the issue the reference to Ms. Toynbee should go full stop as she is a humanist (some call it atheist or agnostic) - I guess that was her view at the time too, but she was invited on grounds of her name. On a side note I would like to underline that any attempts to delete her quotes, based on her view on religion, are in effect discriminatory. --Catflap08 (talk) 15:54, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Human Revolution[edit]

  1. Remove quotes from Fictional material, to whit "Human Revolution"

I couldn't find any remaining quotes from the book. Is this still under dispute? Please feel free to discuss this, please remember to be civil and discuss the content not the contributor SPACKlick (talk) 14:43, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

It should be established that the semi-fictional novel is not a reliable source to quote from full stop. In the talk page (either on DI or SGI/SG) it was discussed to quote it. --Catflap08 (talk) 16:10, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Please halt discussion until a new moderator takes up this case. SPACKlick has indicated on the DRN talk page that he/she is unable to continue with this case. I'm therefore marking it as NEEDS ATTENTTION in the hopes another DRN volunteer will pick it up.-- KeithbobTalk 17:22, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Hello All, I am a part time volunteer with DRN. First of all I would like to thank everybody for participating. I also want to make it clear that we at DRN carry forward discussions which were not resolved on the talk page. We are not here to discuss subjects of articles but merely what can be added to an article. We don't possess any administrator privileges. With that out of the day let me briefly summarize my understanding of the dispute which is whether any reference to Daisaku Ikeda having hit (or abused, or physically harmed in any way) a priest called Jimon Ogasawara, should be included in the article about Daisaku Ikeda. Later the dispute includes the suitability of adding the opinion of journalist Polly Toynbee to the article. I have drawn these conclusions from reading the rather lengthy talk page discussions and the discussions above. Would that be correct? -Wikishagnik (talk) 13:59, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
@ Wikishagnik You seem to sum up the dispute quite correctly. Except that to my recollection the dispute originally surfaced as one editor questioned the Murata quote full stop. It carried on from there onwards.--Catflap08 (talk) 22:05, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
@ Wikishagnik Greetings, thank you for asking. Please note that there is no evidence whatsoever that Daisaku Ikeda in any way hit or abused or harmed Jimon Ogasawara. Please see my comment of 06:45, 9 February 2015 (UTC) Further, the article already includes the opinion of Polly Toynbee in the section Books. Thank you.

Starrynuit (talk) 03:46, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Loma Linda_University_Medical_Center[edit]

Pictogram voting wait red.png – Needs attention.
Filed by 76.174.65.156 on 01:58, 18 February 2015 (UTC).


Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

The Loma Linda University Medical Center Wikipedia page has, since 2008 or before, had an entire section dedicated to "Medicare Fraud." That equates to approximately 20% of the total content on the page. After reviewing the Wikipedia pages of several other notable healthcare institutions, including the Mayo Clinic, Kaiser Permanente, and Johns Hopkins, not one of these institutions had any reference to their Medicare-fraud-related issues, and their Wikipedia pages are much, much longer than the page of Loma Linda University Medical Center. Meanwhile, the Hospital Corporation of America, an institution that has had extensive quarrels with Medicare and significant fines levied against it as a result, has a section about twice as long as that of Loma Linda University Medical Center's.

The unquestionable consensus, then, is that healthcare organizations that have relatively minor fines levied against it do not have any mention of fraud on their pages, while organizations that have had very significant fines levied against it may, as in the case of the Hospital Corporation of America, have a small section detailing the relevant issues.

Given that the "Medicare Fraud" section has been under dispute since 2008, it should be taken down until the consensus is otherwise, and, in which case, a precedent will be set if the section is allow to remain. For the time being, however, the section should not stand against consensus and the established precedent, according to Wikipedia's own established standards.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Making the necessary edits and discussing on the Talk page.

How do you think we can help?

The "Medicare Fraud" section should be taken down until the broader consensus, as established by the countless hours of content creation and editing already done to the Wikipedia pages of similar institutions referenced before (e.g., Mayo Clinic, Kaiser Permanente), has changed.

Summary of dispute by 331dot[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

I do not agree with the contention that the Fraud section was "under dispute since 2008" as the only evidence of any dispute that I have seen was one talk page post in 2008 which was unreplied to and did not result in removal of the passage.

I have requested that the IP user link to discussions where a consensus about not discussing fines (I don't consider 2.2 million a "minor" fine) like this in articles was established, but have not gotten a reply. A fine regarding activities with a large government program seems notable and the lack of such mentions on other articles about large medical facilities or organizations doesn't seem relevant to me without a policy or documented consensus saying so.

I have not examined the sources in detail so I take TransporterMan at his word regarding his discussion of them on the talk page, but that is a different issue.

If further statements are needed from me, please ask. 331dot (talk) 22:32, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute and resignation from dispute by TransporterMan[edit]

So as to clarify my position in this matter, I stand by the statements which I made at the article talk page (in brief, (a) that I don't think that the material is inappropriate or that there is any policy or guideline or consensus made at this article which excludes this material because of its nature, but (b) that the first paragraph of the section in question is unsourced and the the third paragraph has sources but that they are not reliable, so the first and third paragraphs should be removed unless reliable sources can be found for them), but I will not be participating further in this discussion, here or at the article talk page, and will not be editing the article in connection with the matter in dispute (or otherwise, more than likely, but at least that much) and I am willing to accept whatever resolution may be worked out here between the principal parties. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 18:37, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Loma Linda_University_Medical_Center discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Administrative note to DRN volunteers - I've pinged the other participant. Someone please take this case when he/she arrives. Thanks, -- KeithbobTalk 19:17, 19 February 2015 (UTC)-- KeithbobTalk 18:48, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

24 (TV series)[edit]

Pictogram voting wait red.png – Needs attention.
Filed by Jimthing on 23:00, 23 February 2015 (UTC).


Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

Article should use "US" and not "U.S." because other countries that use acronyms in the article are present. See guidelines below. yet other users keep reverting to suit their own preference.

The guidelines state:

  • WP:NOTUSA states U.S. is the most common usage in N.America, however it also states "Use of periods for abbreviations and acronyms should be consistent within any given article and congruent with the variety of English used by that article." This can be read as use U.S. if article is American-based, though the original author has the choice at time of submission. But it also states "consistent within any given article".
  • Hence MOS:ABBR also comes into effect, "However, use a consistent style within the same article; use "US" in articles with other national abbreviations, e.g. "UK" or "UAE"." meaning any article with another acronym country should then use US without periods.

That's quite clear; articles with other acronym countries should then use "US" and has nothing to do with it being a US-based article subject matter. If said users don't like that guideline, then they should attempt to get it changed. But disagreeing with what the guidelines say, does NOT give users the right to simply ignore them as they are now.

Other links:

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Repeated explanation of these guidelines to both Drmargi and Drovethrughosts, result in continual reversions in favour of their own personal preference. On top of that keeps making ad hominem attacks against me, including an irrelevant sock puppet accusation due to an IP-only users' comment appearing – a comment which is completely irrelevant, but seems to think it's still acceptable to remove other users comments, against WP discussion policy. (see links)

EDIT: nearly 24h after putting notices on both the two users' pages, the two other editors involved have unsurprisingly entirely failed to comment (tells one a lot on their understanding of the guidelines as they appear, without inferring and/or ignoring half of them to suit their own preferences instead).

How do you think we can help?

These users need the guidelines explaining to them AS THEY ARE, and if they keep failing to respond to what the GL's clearly explain, said users need to be told to stop reverting perfectly acceptable edits by other users which are following the GL's appropriately. Jimthing (talk) 23:00, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Drmargi[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Drovethrughosts[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

24 (TV series) discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Status report: Participants have been notified and there has been significant discussion on the talk page. After the participants have given summaries a DRN volunteer (other than me) may open this case.-- KeithbobTalk 20:50, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

24 hour closing notice -- The two parties besides the filing party have been notified on their talk page and have edited WP through today. There has been interaction between the parties on the article talk page and a user talk page in regard to this DRN. So they are well aware and appear to be declining participation here at DRN, as is their right. If no summaries are added within 24 hrs I'm going to close this case.-- KeithbobTalk 23:15, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
So the other parties here have ignored all guidelines concerned, repeatedly bullying another user who's following all of them on the talk pages with their own POV on what they want (only following half the guidelines concerned, as explained above). Thus I get pushed into a needless Edit Warring 48h ban. They then don't bother to come to this DRN, thus the case is closed in their favour anyway. How is this a fair way of dealing with issues, as the bullies get their way regardless? Jimthing (talk) 20:08, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
I personally have reverted Jimthing twice, and as a neutral party aware of this dispute I'm exercising my right to comment. This editor caused an edit war on multiple pages by attempting to force his changes without discussing it with others first. He would not allow the page to be restored to a state prior to it being in dispute. No one has bullied him, people have attempted to reason with him on the 24 talk page. This editor also reacted badly to suspicions of sock puppetry but there is grounds there, an IP editor who geo locates to London like this editor appeared and commented within minutes of Jimthing on the 24 talk page and immediately went on the attack against Drmargi quoting the Wikipedia guidelines in the same manner and then went onto her page and was rude. You don't need to be Sherlock Holmes to suspect something. Also it's worth noting that all NBC/FOX/CW/CBS/ABC show pages use the term U.S. But he refuses to accept that. That's all I will say on this subject, feel free to look at the 24 page history to see my two revisions to confirm I was involved, and I do apologise if IP editors aren't allowed to give an opinion here, I just feel this is needed. 86.15.195.205 (talk) 21:29, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Again, stick to the topic, and not that IP-only commenter's comment (WHO WAS NOT ME, SO STOP TRYING TO INSINUATE IT WAS ME! Given it was pretty immature, and used US-style language all over the place –e.g. "jerk" et al, a Brit is highly unlikely to ever use– makes me think you made-up it's geo-location to London, especially as I was in Manchester for all of these edits, so your "argument" fails!). I notice you haven't bothered to comment on the guidelines AT ALL here, all while hiding behind an IP address yourself, makes me think you are in collusion with the other parties here: pot calling kettle, comes to mind. Jimthing (talk) 06:33, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Helmut Diez[edit]

Pictogram voting wait blue.svg – Discussion in progress.
Filed by Hans-Jürgen Hübner on 16:56, 26 February 2015 (UTC).


Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

The article about Helmut Diez was written about 3 years ago. Then Rhode Island Red told me that german sources are not accepted. Then he wanted to make me believe that the length of an article should mirror the significance of a person. His hints were always extremely vague (e.g. "see WP:MOS, WP:BIO, WP:BLP, WP:PROMO for a start"), he wanted "high-quality online sources in English", although WPs regulations say even "Citations to non-English sources are allowed". He criticized that some links, which I offered as an additional service for the readers, did not contain Mr. Diez's name, although it was obvious, that this was not the purpose. His tone was always gentle, but he deleted everything I did, so that it looks like a self-authorized deletion. He did this three times without giving persuading reasons, as far as I can see. Now I have made an attempt to improve the style with the help of an american and a british friend, and I have made the article more brief and deleted all the links that did not contain Diez's name - but the result is the same. I have no idea what to do against this kind of unexplainable treatment. At 7 o'clock I replaced the old version with the new one, but it took only a few hours to return to the much worse previous state.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

After the discussion mentioned above, I tried to further improve the style and keep the article as short as possible.

How do you think we can help?

Please answer my question if the reasons of Rhode Island Red are adequate, correct or part of Wikipedias philosophy. Give me some precise hints, how to save my work - if possible. If I'm wrong, although I'm writing for the german Wikipedia since 2006, Mr. Diez personally has asked on the telephone rather to delete the article about him, than to keep it the way it is now.

Summary of dispute by Rhode Island Red[edit]

This is a malformed and inappropriate DRN IMO. The user who filed it provided no history, no diff edits, no links, etc., making it difficult for anyone digging into the matter to even remotely understand the issues at hand.

The user has made couple of previous attempts to write an article on the bio subject in question. Those efforts fell far short of WP standards for a plethora of reasons, which I articulated in great detail on the article’s TPG (e.g., WP:PROMO, WP:RESUME, unreliable sources, dead links, supposition without sources, trivia, poor writing bordering on incomprehensible, etc).[1] I offered to assist the editor in question in crafting an article that might meet WP standards, and I suggested that we use the TPG to begin the process.[2] The editor failed to take up the offer and instead recently posted a revised version of the article that was even worse (for the reasons specified above) than the previous versions. I reverted the changes,[3] explained the reasoning for the reversion on the TPG,[4] and then never received a reply from the editor.

There was also a serious issue with respect to the editor primarily using unacceptable sources, almost all of which were either dead links, articles that were not from WP:RS, and articles that failed to mention the bio subject at all.[5] This raises issues with respect to the editor’s reliability and understanding of WP’s policy on sourcing, and this is especially problematic given that they are now attempting to use unverifiable, obscure, and highly dubious offline sources in German.

This DRN has bypassed the normal sequence of events that would be followed in situation like this: i.e., engagement on the TPG, request for second opinion, RfC, etc. Escalating to DRN has circumvented the normal editorial process unnecessarily.

That aside, the basic question of whether the subject is notable enough for a WP:BIO has not been resolved. IMO, the subject is not notable. The bio subject has not received significant coverage in WP:RS, and particularly not in any English language sources available online or offline. The offline sources in German which the editor has provided seem dubious to say the least, and still do not appear to establish notability even if accepted at face value.

The editor’s RfC comment about having had direct conversations with the bio subject regarding the content and fate of the WP bio article also raise the issue of WP:COI. This is what I had suspected all along given the editors past conduct and POV pushing.

Talk:Helmut Diez discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Clerical Notice: I've notified the other participant on their talk page.-- KeithbobTalk 23:18, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Open for Discussion - This case is now open for discussion. Please restrict your comments to the content of the article (current or proposed). Please do not make reference to other editors actions or behavior, past or present. Hans, I see that you would like to add some content to this article. We will discuss one source at a time. Please list one source, and the corresponding text for that source, that you would like to add to the article. Thank you. -- KeithbobTalk 18:02, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
If I may make a suggestion, it might be best to go through this process on the article TPG so that the discussion will be easily accessible to other editors. Rhode Island Red (talk) 22:05, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
It seems that the discussion process wasn't working so let's try it here. When the moderated discussion is over you can copy and paste it to the talk page and provide a link to the archived discussion if you like.-- KeithbobTalk 03:53, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
Sure, that sounds reasonable. Thanks. Rhode Island Red (talk) 03:57, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

First proposal[edit]

I instead believe that it is useless to continue our discussion on the talk page. So here is an example of a paragraph that I would like to re-insert (the references are marked as [ref:]:

The Hattinger model [ref: More about the model cfr. Otto König, Adi Ostertag, Hartmut Schulz: "Unser Beispiel könnte ja Schule machen!". Das "Hattinger Modell" Existenzkampf an der Ruhr, Bund-Verlag, 1985.] (for the continuation of the smithy in Hattingen) tried to save jobs,[ref: Herbert Klemisch, Kerstin Sack and Christoph Ehrsam: Betriebsübernahme durch Belegschaften. Eine aktuelle Bestandsaufnahme, Studie im Auftrag der Hans Böckler Stiftung, July 2010, ISSN 1619ISSN.] but the Dresdner Bank refused to sell its collateral values to the rescue company.[ref: Dresdner Bank besteht auf Konkurs, in: Die Tageszeitung, 12th of may 1984.] “... the Diez model was already laid out correctly” it was said in the second largest newspaper in Germany.[ref: Westfälische Rundschau and Westfälischer Ruhr-Anzeiger, 22nd of may 1984 and "Ich habe Wut gekriegt für die Zukunft..." Diez-Modell richtig angelegt. Landtagsabgeordneter Uli Schmidt nach dem Scheitern des Hattinger Modells. Despite all this it was said: "Und deshalb war das Diez-Modell alle zu beteiligen, schon richtig angelegt." (And that is why the Diez model to let participate all parties, was correctly implemented)] --Hans-Jürgen Hübner (talk) 18:37, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Ok, let's break this down so we can discuss one sentence and source at a time:

  • 1)The Hattinger model
    • [ref: More about the model cfr. Otto König, Adi Ostertag, Hartmut Schulz: "Unser Beispiel könnte ja Schule machen!". Das "Hattinger Modell" Existenzkampf an der Ruhr, Bund-Verlag, 1985.]
  • 2) (for the continuation of the smithy in Hattingen) tried to save jobs,[ref: Herbert Klemisch, Kerstin Sack and Christoph Ehrsam: Betriebsübernahme durch Belegschaften. Eine aktuelle Bestandsaufnahme, Studie im Auftrag der Hans Böckler Stiftung, July 2010, ISSN 1619ISSN.]
  • 4) “... the Diez model was already laid out correctly” it was said in the second largest newspaper in Germany.
    • [ref: Westfälische Rundschau and Westfälischer Ruhr-Anzeiger, 22nd of may 1984 and "Ich habe Wut gekriegt für die Zukunft..." Diez-Modell richtig angelegt. Landtagsabgeordneter Uli Schmidt nach dem Scheitern des Hattinger Modells. Despite all this it was said: "Und deshalb war das Diez-Modell alle zu beteiligen, schon richtig angelegt." (And that is why the Diez model to let participate all parties, was correctly implemented)] -- KeithbobTalk 03:57, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
Rhode Island Red, before we discuss individual sources do you have any general comments about this proposed text? The Hattinger model, for the continuation of the smithy in Hattingen) tried to save jobs, but the Dresder Bank refuse to sell its collateral values to the rescue company. :"The Diez model was already laid out correctly" it was said in the second largest newspaper in Germany. -- KeithbobTalk 04:03, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
Yes. There's no context, it lacks critical detail, and it seems like WP:SYNTH about something fairly trivial. What is the Diez model? What parties are they talking about? What rescue company? What does Dresden Bank have to do with Diez? It makes my brain hurt trying to make sense of it. It seems to boil down to: "Diez had a plan to save jobs at a smithy in Hattingen and it didn't/(did?) work". It also appears that only one of three references actually mentions Diez, and even then only incidentally. I was hoping to see substantial evidence of notability put forth at the outset, because if there is none, discussion about minutiae like this seems moot. A one-line entry in a newspaper, like the example above, wouldn't qualify. Perhaps Jan can make offer up the best evidence he can find that would help the determination of whether the subject is notable. Rhode Island Red (talk) 04:57, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

User talk:Grillmaster423#March_2015[edit]

Symbol comment vote.svg – General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by Grillmaster423 on 03:52, 1 March 2015 (UTC).

Talk:Overland Limited_(UP_train)#"Corrections"[edit]

Symbol wait old.png – New discussion.
Filed by Mackensen on 17:30, 1 March 2015 (UTC).


Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

Tim Zukas has challenged the veracity of the article and claims that it is full of mistakes. He has repeatedly reverted to his preferred version, which also makes numerous stylistic changes. It's difficult to read through these diffs. He adds no sources of his own, has added unsourced content, and sometimes removes sources. I and another editor have asked him to make more incremental edits, flagging inaccurate information, but he has not done so. Zukas also sometimes edits from an IP and not his regular account; I do not think this is deliberate but it has aggravated the situation.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

This has been discussed extensively on the talk page but we seem to be talking past each other.

How do you think we can help?

I'd like someone not involved to look over the dispute and give their opinion on it. I'm getting worn out arguing. This article isn't highly-trafficked and some fresh perspective would be helpful.

Summary of dispute by Centpacrr[edit]

Both Mackensen (who created the article last summer) and I have been repeatedly restoring massive deletions of existing detailed, well sourced material and citations that had been originally developed and contributed by us after the material has been repeatedly deleted without explanation by user Tim Zukas under both his registered user account and multiple sockpuppet IP addresses. (All of the IPs geolocate to Oakland, CA, the Berkeley Public Library, and the University of California (Berkeley) of which Zukas is listed as a small financial contributor to the Bancroft Library.) This follows a pattern which Zukas has used to make similar disruptive edits to many other transportation related articles such as Boeing 314 and Braniff International Airways using multiple IPs, and other articles using his registered account. In all cases (including the "Overland Limited" article), the deletions made by this user have violated WP:PRESERVE, WP:UNRESPONSIVE and WP:CAUTIOUS. This user has a long demonstrated history over a period of several years of engaging in this type of disruptive editing which is revealed by multiple warnings and complaints posted by many other editors in his talk page. Multiple requests made of him in talk pages of this and other articles that he cooperate with his fellow editors in resolving such issues are virtually always ignored. Centpacrr (talk) 19:01, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

As user "Zukas" has chosen to ignore this process and once again massively altered the article without explanation, I have decided to delete all the images, new text, references, sources and citations that I have added over the past several weeks and revert it to the status quo ante rather than waste anymore of my time dealing with a blindly disruptive editor who has no interest in dealing collegially with the rest of the WP community. Centpacrr (talk) 01:13, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Tim Zukas[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Talk:Overland Limited_(UP_train)#"Corrections" discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.