Talk:New Haven–style pizza

Pictures of Apizza and Article Notability

Looking at those two pictures on the page, I have to ask what exactly is unique about these pizzas? The upper picture shows a pizza with clams, which is surely an uncommon ingredient, but it just doesn't seem to warrant its own page. The lower one just looks like every other traditional pizza I have seen. If these are examples of so-called "New Haven style" pizza, it makes me skeptical about this type of pizza being notable. Has anyone noticed that the previous vote for deletion of this page saw participation mostly from people who dine at Sally's and Pepe's pizzerias? It makes me feel that those votes were cast more for having an article about their favorite pizzerias rather than on notability. I guess this is how wikipedia makes decisions, but I wonder if the same decision would have been reached with more participants in the discussion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.96.6.11 (talk) 19:38, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

What makes New Haven pizza unique is the method used to cook the pizza almost always in a coal fired white oven, for several minutes as opposed to most Napoletana pizza make in New York, which is cooked at a higher temperature usually using fresh mozzarella (fior di latte) as opposed to using brick mozzarella (pizza cheese) or scamorza. This is directly attributed to using local products which are(or were) only available in the New Haven area.

Additionally, Napoletana pizza has strict guidelines laid out by Vera Pizza Napoletana. They are:

1. A wood-burning oven: The pizza must be cooked by wood. Gas, coal or electric ovens, while they may produce delicious pizza, do not conform to the tradition.

2. Proper ingredients: 00 flour, San Marzano (plum) tomatoes, all natural fior-di-latte or bufala mozzarella, fresh basil, salt and yeast. Only fresh, all-natural, non-processed ingredients are acceptable.

3. Proper technique: Hand-worked or low speed mixed dough, proper work surface (usually a marble slab), oven temp (800° F), pizza preparation, etc.

4. Review by the designated representative of the association assuring that the ingredients, technique and final product conform to the tradition.

5. Each individual restaurant is bound to uphold the standards of the association. Moreover, each individual restaurant is bound to pay a membership and membership renewal fee. Hence, membership fees do not apply to any new units opened subsequent to joining VPN, nor is membership transferable from one location to another. Rather, each individual location is evaluated and billed separately. In the event of non-compliance by one or more of my restaurants, the VPN association maintains the right to suspend or rescind membership on an individual or collective basis.

As I stated previously, in New Haven they use coal fired ovens, not wood. They don't use Caputo 00 flour, they don't use any of the ingredients stated above. As you can see, there is sufficient evidence that New Haven Style pizza is different from New York, and Napoletana styles.--Jsderwin (talk) 01:27, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree that New Haven style is different from New York or any other type. And I agree with the brick ovens point, but here's some info regarding fuel and the various "New Haven Style" parlors.

Coal - Pepe's, Sally's, Salerno's (Stratford)

Gas - Modern, Roselands (Derby)

Wood - BAR, Eli's (Hamden).

Markvs88 (talk) 16:52, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

References

Since several restarants serving New Haven style pizza use gas or wood ovens should the cooking method be rephrased as a brick oven often coal fired? Colonial Computer 19:31, 6 March 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 22yearswothanks (talk • contribs)

notability

The notability of "New Haven-style pizza" is a complete non-issue, though some of the underlying reality remains a bit mysterious even to those who think they understand.

My gripe with the topic is that would-be journalists and food-writers (and those who cite them) and even a few real journalists, claim that "apizza" is locally pronounced "ah-beetz." It probably was at one time, among a subset of the population. But it's far closer to the truth to say that locally, nobody pronounces "apizza" at all, and the term has long been used only as part of a business name... "Joey's Apizza" or whatever....to connote local authenticity.

You want to get a pizza in New Haven and one would then simply say "let's get a pizza," regardless of ethnic background. This is just an obvious fact that a literal reader might miss (though probably not). I'm afraid there are no published sources on this, however. Badiacrushed (talk) 01:50, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Encyclopedic

Any way for this to be encyclopedic? I'm not sure how relevant a style of pizza in one particular town is. Would this ever be verifiable? Friday 17:34, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

See: VfD Frank Pepe

FWIW, there are also already articles on New York-style pizza, Chicago-style pizza, and St. Louis-style pizza. I think these are all relevant to serious discussion of different styles and traditions of pizza, as well as to the local cuisine of the particular cities. Dr.frog 22:50, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

New Haven pizza is a type of pizza along the lines of Chicago style or New York Style. The article has relevance in the history of pizza as well as in the general typology of pizza. People travel great distances and line up for hours to buy New Haven pizza partially for its unique taste and partially for its historical significance. If somebody wanted an explanation for this behavior, it would be natural for many to look up New Haven pizza on Wikipedia. In addition, it's natural for people visiting the area to want to know what "Apizza" is and why it only seems to be in the New Haven area. For these reasons, it seems the best service to the public would be for the article to stay and be improved if possible. 71.235.99.181 (talk) 00:38, 22 December 2007 (UTC)Greg

I am not convinced. I've heard that there are specific styles of pizza in New York and California, although the articles on those subjects do a frankly poor job of explaining to me what those styles are. As far as I can tell from this article, there is nothing especially unusual about a 'New Haven-style pizza', and only local chauvinism is keeping this article in business. I don't think that this subject is sufficiently notable to warrant an entire article to itself. Lexo (talk) 00:50, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

So you're complaining about the quality of all the pizza articles? You'd better get to work improving them then! Markvs88 (talk) 01:17, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Lexo, you don't have to be convinced. Enough others are. And you forgot Chicago-style. - Denimadept (talk) 05:10, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Exactly. I see on his page that he's an Irish citizen. I wonder how he'd feel if I put a notability tag on kilt and asked him to improve the article to show it isn't just a skirt? Markvs88 (talk) 10:53, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Or, more to the point, on Irish whiskey. No one drinks that crap, right? It's all about Scotch whisky. - Denimadept (talk) 14:56, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

Lexo, I am an expert on pizza having served in the restaurant and food business since 1987. I have had pizza in several European countries including Italy, Turkey and France. I have also eaten pizza over most of the notable places in the United States. I can tell you from first hand experience that New Haven pizza is not the same as New York style, which is it's closest cousin. Pizza in this part of the United States is serious business, much like your potato, or Irish whiskey. You should leave it to those of us who have first hand experience mixed with verifiable sources to work on the article, so foreigners like you can learn about our fine pizza cuisine in this great nation of ours. If that doesn't do it, once again refer to this: VfD Frank Pepe Jsderwin (talk) 10:09, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

This article is utterly non encyclopedic, as well as the article on Frank Pepe Pizzeria Napoletana. I have eaten pizza for extended periods of time in Italy, Germany, France, USA and Switzerland (not in that order). Above all that type of Pizza is known as Napoletana: the adjective at the end of Frank Pepe's pizzeria is not just an indication of where the founder originates, but it labels the type of pizza. So New-Have style is at best a misnomer for Napoletana (or Neapolitan if you prefer). The fact that in time, people with limited exposure to pizza, have started to think that that style is New Haven's own, doesn't make it right.--Gciriani (talk) 16:01, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Right. And the EU is just a United States of Europe. There are no differences at all, the USA and USE are exactly the same place. Nothing new ever evolves, we can just call CDs records and MP3s? Those are just music files. The iPod is just a portable record player. Markvs88 (talk) 16:25, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm not getting your point. Could you be more specific please?--Gciriani (talk) 20:55, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

I apologise if I was being a little obscure. Here it is in a nutshell: New Haven Pizza is absolutely it's own style. That it is decended from/an offshoot of Neapolitan pizza is already stated in the articles. But it is not the same. Things evolve from something prior all the time, and to say that NH Pizza is unencyclopedic just because it isn't something with no predecssors (ie: the Segway) is not logical. If we applied that metric, we'd have to scratch Neopolitan pie, since it started as a Roman Army ration. Etc. Markvs88 (talk) 21:15, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

I've eaten twice at Pepe's with my wife, and I can tell you (and she confirms), that that you can eat that kind of Pizza in several other places across the ocean that have never heard of New-Haven style. Napoletana covers a broad spectrum of thickness. Pepe's is on the thin side, but I repeat I have had exactly that thickness in other places, both restaurants and bakeries, that serve it on the spot while you buy bread. As for the Roman Army ration, is that true and from a reliable source? I'd never heard of it; what I'd heard was that pizza in its modern recipe, was an invention of the 1800's to honor the visit of a queen to Naples (Margherita, hence the name), but I never verified it and I would not be surprised if this was a false popular belief as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gciriani (talk • contribs) 20:15, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

A flat bread predecessor of pizza was found in Roman ovens in Scotland.[1]. Cato the Elder wrote about "flat round of dough dressed with olive oil, herbs, and honey baked on stones." in his history of Rome, and that's circa 150 BC. Heck, I'd even go so far as to point out the pizzaria found in Pompeii (from 80 AD). Of course, tomoatoes didn't come to Europe from South America until the early 1500s, so our "modern-style" pizza would have to wait. In any event, your wife is not a citable source. Please present proof or stop beating a dead horse. Markvs88 (talk) 20:34, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

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Need for list of other cities?

Is there a need for a list of other cities where Apizza is? It seems both unnecessary for this page as well as not possible to be complete. I am removing it for now, but if someone wants to discuss, please feel free to leave a note here and revert later. ChunyangD (talk) 03:10, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Hi ChunyangD. I agree that the list of cities is pointless and impossible to upkeep as you mention, but I do feel that it is notable that New Haven style pizza is expanding beyond Connecticut, both nationally and internationally. So the section needs sources, and some of the (many!) old citations are garbage (Salvation Pizza doesn't mention New Haven, the Allmenus are self-publishing, Baird Beer is a dead link) but I'd be in favor of keeping ones like "Pete's New Haven Style Apizza" and Piece Brewery & Pizzeria. Markvs88 (talk) 13:16, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Pizza documentary

Gorman Bechard produced Pizza: A Love Story a documentary on the history of New Haven Pizza. He has interviews with celebrities such as Michael Bolton, Henry Winkler and Lyle Lovett talking about 3 nationaly renouned New Haven pizzarias. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 22yearswothanks (talk • contribs) 19:47, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:New York-style pizza which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 00:02, 4 May 2023 (UTC)