Talk:As I Lay Dying (band)/Archive 1

This page needs to be updated more often. I would but I have five different pages to help with. TearAwayTheFunerealDress 14:14, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Mallcore...

Interesting you should say that. Because it could very well be true. Oh well. I only know three songs so it don't matter to me what classification. TearAwayTheFunerealDress 15:30, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

I really disagree with the usage of the term "mallcore" in Wiki articles. It seems to me that it inherently breaks NPOV guidelines, so should be left out of band entries, regardless of the author's opinion. City 07:23, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Changed the musical genre of their albums to Metalcore, since Metal-Archives has recognised it as such, and the the christianity is not really apparent in their songs --SePPach 21:08, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I notice someone has added numerous more members to the former members page. I have read before that they have had numerous guitar players, but nothing about another drummer. Who is this Anthony L. Watson or whatever? On the band website Tim claims that he and Jordan formed the band. --User:Growlnotscream 7:21, March 30, 2006

Before I edit it, I just want to establish that the band did get their name from the book titled "As I Lay Dying," but, there is no correlation between the book and the band's lyrics. Tim has said in many interviews that the band did indeed get their name from the book. --User:Growlnotscream 11:00 April 12 2006

I just noticed a change to the genre that wasn't mentioned here in the discussion page. Someone added "Swedish Metal" influence. Not sure about that... -- User:Growlnotscream 9:55 April 28 2006

I don't really see how the faith of the band is connected to their musical genre. There is no distinction in terms of music between "Christian metalcore" and "metalcore", therefore it's irrelevant to what genre they are put in. Are we going to edit the rest of Wikipedia to mention the faith of other bands? ("Iron Maiden are an atheist heavy metal band..." etc) How about other professions other than musicians? I'm not necessarily saying that this information has no part in the article, just that it is being over and unnecessarily emphasized by being placed as part of the bands genre. (As an aside, I'm totally in stitches over this information, which I wasn't previously aware of. I don't have kids, but I have to wonder, if I did: would I ban them from listening to AILD for fear of them being brainwashed into being Christian? I guess not, as I didn't really buy into that "metallers are devil worshippers and will turn your kids into satanists" hype that was all the rage a while back, but still it's a funny reversal. I guess kids never like the music their parents to anyway, so mine will almost certainly like the Britney Spears of whatever era they grow up in and it won't be an issue. :) ) 82.46.105.121 23:23, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I disagree, if you watch some of there music videos, it depicts religion. 24.16.112.105 (talk) 06:28, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

swedish metal

they do indeed have "Melodic Death Metal" influences as do many metalcore bands but swedish metal is not a term, Melodic Death Metal is not exclusively swedish,(I am from sweden myself) nor is that it's real name. I am changing it to simply Metalcore as enough metalcore bands feature Melodic Death Metal influences for a reader to be able to assume this. Also I don't agree on calling them a christian metal band. They are christian, they are a metal band and the lyrics are perhaps christian but that's not an actual genre. they are no different than other metalcore bands simply because their lyrics are about christian things.

Christian Metal is definitely a genre, and their lyrics definitely have to do with it (read The Darkest Nights or Forever). Theunknown42 14:45, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Christian Metal certainly is a legit subgenre, and it is an important enough classification for the band to mention many times in interviews and such that their faith is their motivating force behind why they do what they do. Also, lyrics are up for interpretation, so it isn't really up to you to decide whether the songs are about Christianity or not, frankly, and Tim Lambesis has been quoted as saying that that is in fact what the songs are about. So, I believe there is enough reason to classify them as a "Christian" metalcore band. City 07:41, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

"Forever" is a love song. Bad example. Yes some of their lyrics are Christian, but honestly I'd say maybe under half. A lot of them are about personal relationships. - Razorhead 10:52 AM, 3 August 2006

The band has said in interviews and on their FAQ that their lyrics are not intended to be Christian, but could certainly be interpreted as so. Also, the re-release was released in June, not May. Haha. User:growlnotscream June 21, 2006 9:50 AM

There I changed it to just metalcore. It's probably best to leave it as that since no one can agree on anything else (I changed it to metalcore and melodic death metal at one point). - Razorhead 10:55 AM, 3 August 2006

Taken from the FAQ page on AILD's website which was written by Tim Lambesis, "I'm not sure what the difference is between five Christians playing in a band and a Christian band. If you truly believe something, then it should affect every area of your life." Don't say they don't want to be labled as a Christian band! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by N7ghtwolf (talk • contribs).

AILD is simply metalcore. They are not "Swedecore" or considered Chiristian metal. AILD's lyrics are not Christian based. If you read the lyrics, they are singing about every day life and the struggles we go through. Just because Tim is Christian, does not mean the band is Christian metal. Everyone can agree on metalcore, so leave it at that. Bushy33 05:06, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

As someone already pointed out, their own FAQ states that every member of the band is Christian, that all of their songs are written from the perspective of a Christian, and that the goal of the band is to "intelligently represent a faith that has been very misrepresented in the entertainment industry." And again, like quoted above, it states, "I'm not sure what the difference is between five Christians playing in a band and a Christian band. If you truly believe something, then it should affect every area of your life." Jpers36 07:02, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I can't see how someone cannot take them as a Christian band. They use many Christian refrences, subliminal at times, but lots. And their songs about personal issues are done with a Christian perspective on things. I find it quite easy to stick them into that category. IronCrow 03:40, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't care how the Wikipedia article defines Christian music…. Seriously, just because all of a band's members share the same faith and occasionally reference it in their songwriting does not make them musical proponents of that faith. If a Buddhist starts a band with a couple of his Buddhist friends and writes lyrics about spirituality, does that make it a "Buddhist band"? No. The difference between "five Christians playing in a band" and "a Christian band" is that the latter uses its music as a way to practice its religion (or spread the word, whatever). Listen to a Christian radio station some time: you will hear the songs address God and specific areas of Christian faith. Let's not waste time finding bands with religious members and labeling them as religious genres -- it's useless information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.251.230.51 (talk) 21:26, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

And Wikipedia doesn't care about what you "think." Their website states they are a "Christian band." And no, Christian bands today are not like the Christian bands of the 80's, they don't use it to practice/convert. The vast majority of Christian bands today are not like Stryper or Deliverence. And no, it's not useless information. A background of a band must be found. IronCrow (talk) 18:10, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I've being hearing recent information that they're melodic metal core? Is this true or that even a genre? 24.18.148.197 (talk) 03:15, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Discography Question

Hey, I was just wondering, but why doesn't anyone add "Beneath The Encasing Of Ashes" to the discograpy list? I mean, it was an offical CD release, even though it was re-released, right? OmniAngel 23:00, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Former member?

Has Clint left the band?

No, he hasn't.

And if he did, where is the source? AKnot 20:15, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes he has actually he left the band because he wanted to spend more time with his wife. pick up the issue of revolver magizine with as i lay dying in it

then why doesn't some one mention this in the biography? if its true then put it in there....

   yeah

New Album

is the new album actually called evolution can anyone confirm this Boomhower2121 22:00 19 March 2007 (UTC)

   No, the new album is called An Ocean Between Us

Fair use rationale for Image:As i lay dying split.jpg

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Genre

I wouldn't considerate them just as Christian Metalcore, they actualy play metalcore but i think that more exsactly, Deathcore and Mathcore, they have both shrieks and growls as used in deahcore, even though they dont use pig squeals, they're as technicl as death metal, they have both hardcore and death metal influences, some of their songs cn be considered as Melodic Deathcore, songs like Darkest Nights and Through Struggle, but songs like Behind me lies another Fallen, Torn Within, Force to Die are not melodic at all/as melodic as the irst songs.

Now, the mathcore thing, they use very odd time signatures for example in the song Distance is Darkness, and in the second part is exremly melodic, in the entire song utilizes energic vocals, their songs are short and they use odd song structures. Sheish

Not Deathcore. Definitly Metalcore. And Mathcore is different. Loads of metal bands use electronic sounds and such, it adds to the rhythm. And Hardcore punk sound is part of the sound of Metalcore. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathcore http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deathcore IronCrow 22:19, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, yeah, I know what both subhgeneres are. I know it ain't as heavy as common deathcore, but there's so much influence on them by death metal. Why mathcore not? not every band of mathcore uses electronics there's an example... Fear Before The March Of Flames. At least melodic deathcore, don't you think? --Sheish 6 Sheish 03:56, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I can see some in their latest album in "small doses," however, they are definitly Metalcore, and with the genre of Metalcore goes a combination of sounds. Mathcore would be like... Botch, some Norma Jean, etc. Their primary genre = Metalcore. IronCrow 21:45, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Can Someone Please Block This Page From Being Edited

I've noticed that the page has been edited to say that As I Lay Dying are "supporters of gay marriage" and that they are a screamo band.

Well, you could edit out such information yourself, but I'm not actually seeing any of that on the page. Where is it? Jpers36 19:27, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

It was vandalized about two weeks ago it stayed up for about a day, it was at the beginning of the page where there is a brief bio of the band.

Checking your edit history, it appears that you are the one who made the edits you're now complaining about. What gives? Jpers36 16:03, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

A little brother or sister editing the page? Hehe, who knows, but to add a quick note: I think the primary source of vandalism for this page is people who don't think As I Lay Dying is either "Good" or "Christian." Who woulda guessed? IronCrow 21:51, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Hey, don't know where to fit this in, noob that I am, but there's a grammatical error in the introduction in which a sentence was cut in half by a period, making the second half a fragment. Hope you don't mind my being a Grammar Nazi. I can't edit the introduction to the article, though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.243.155.198 (talk) 19:45, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I suggest creating an account. It's much easier and if you track your own edits (like me) than it's a life saver. You should be able to edit it. However, it must be edited already because I don't see it. IronCrow 01:00, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Melodic Death Metal?

What the fuck? Doppelganger 23:40, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, some of their music is considered along the line of Melodic Death Metal, however, they are primarily Metalcore. IronCrow 22:21, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Which songs can be considered as melodeath? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sheish (talk • contribs) 05:09:34, August 19, 2007 (UTC).

I think the term I'm looking for is Melodic Deathcore. Small doses, remember? IronCrow 21:46, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Thrash metal

in the reference you give for as i lay dying to be thrash metal, I think, it's not a way for alling them thrash metal. They say "the thash album" but it doesn't mean to be that the band is thrash metal, i think it's more like the "heavy album", "destroyer album" or something alike, but not "the thrash metal album".

Even in the same page states that is a metalcore band and the album is an emo album near to death metal.--Sheish 6 Sheish 02:13, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I might be having trouble understanding what you jsut said. Correct me if I'm wrong, but did you just say As I Lay Dying is... Emo...? And no, I don't think they are thrash metal either and i didn't know why it was there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by IronCrow (talk • contribs) 22:11, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

As far as i know,as i lay dying is emo,almost every emo kid i know likes as i lay dying and there lyrics are emotional,so yes,they could be called "emo",i doubt they would call themselves that,however.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.235.186.185 (talk) 23:40, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Being listened to by emo doesn't make them emo in the least. Nor does emotional lyrics. Ever listend to Linkin Park, now those are some emotional lyrics but it doesn't change the fact that they are a Nu Metal band. I bet you couldn't even find a good source for it.72.81.226.247 (talk) 01:01, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok I wanna say that I haven't touched any article of As I Lay Dying, but they do sound like they have a thrash sound in An Ocean Between Us. Not a total thrash sound but it's there like in Within Destruction, that sounds totally thrash metal. And they have added more solos which also attributes to the thrash metal sound. But you are retarded if you think they are emo, no musical genre EVER has been catagrized by what the lyrics say so you can't say they are emo just because they have "emotional lyrics" Emo is VERY soft and this is nowhere close to emo. you can't catagorize a band "emo" just because and emo person listens to them. And Death Metal is definatly nowhere in site with As I Lay Dying. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Snook666 (talk • contribs) 02:32, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

There not really thras, there lead work isn't really up to par and there rifts aren't as heavy as your typical thrash metal band. Speed dosn't really equal thrash. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Of winter (talk • contribs) 02:39, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Future Tour/Gigs

I have source that As I Lay Dying will be playing at Soundwave Festival 2008 at Australia [1]. can this be added to As I Lay Dying's Page? - 58.168.76.10 05:59, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

GA nom on hold

• Ref 1 needs a more specific URL than [2]

I can't link to the specific section that is referenced.

• "The band experienced several line-up changes with bassists and guitarists" - Expand a bit on this - who changed, what hapepened, etc.

Done

• "Shadows Are Security was released in June, and debuted at number 1 on the Top Independent Albums, and was the band's first release to enter the Billboard 200 at number 35." - Overuse of "and" - suggest you split into 2 sentences

Split into two sentences

• "and commented new guitarists Phil Sgrosso and Nick Hipa, and bass player Clint Norris make the band "stronger". - add a "that" after "commented"

Done

• "At the fee of $US75,000" - You don't need to show the "US", just wlink as $

Done

That be all. — Dihydrogen Monoxide _(Review) 09:40, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

That be done. M3tal H3ad (talk) 03:05, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

That be GA. — Dihydrogen Monoxide _(Review) 05:40, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

they are Christian, right?

Not addressing this in the article (except in the infobox) seems like a pretty big oversight.P4k (talk) 05:09, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

What do you propose? It's in the infobox, as you said, and in the categories. I don't see why it needs to be included in the article other than where it's at. Except... maybe a entence or two, or maybe the fact that they are one of the most popular bands of the genre, Christian or otherwise. IronCrow (talk) 17:05, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know anything about this band so I have no suggestions. I just thought it was strange that it was totally ignored, since it seems a lot more significant to me than listing their lineup changes and the tours they've been on.P4k (talk) 20:52, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

As I Lay Dying is not a "christian metalcore" band. they're chrisitan but they don't play christian music.--Jpkmaster (talk) 23:32, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, Jpkmaster, they do. Look it up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Homie C (talk • contribs) 04:05, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok, if we are all going to play the genre game, why arnt 70% of todays rap artists considered Christian Rap ? because they have faith in god, some do, some don't. I just don't see why we should involve there religion in there genre, they sound like metalcore to me?FaceCavity (talk) 2:24, 5 May (UTC)

They ARE Christian Metalcore

I've changed the beginning of the page. DO NOT change it. I've done my research and As I Lay Dying is definately a Christian band. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Homie C (talk • contribs) 04:10, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Let's see... wikipedia is not a place for you to post your OWN research. As I Lay Dying are not "christian metalcore", I have never ever heard an AILD song with any christian lyrics, not even the word "God" or "Jesus" on any of their songs.--Jpkmaster (talk) 02:26, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

P.O.D, August Burns Red, and UnderOath are all Christian bands but you don't here them say "God" or "Jesus" in any of their songs. It has already been referenced that they are. DO NOT change it unless you have REAL proof that they aren't (which you'll never find).

From their website: "Are you guys Christians in a band or a Christian band? I'm not sure what the difference is between five Christians playing in a band and a Christian band. If you truly believe something, then it should affect every area of your life. All five of us are Christians. I believe that change should start with me first, and as a result, our lyrics do not come across very "preachy." Many of our songs are about life, struggles, mistakes, relationships and other issues that don't fit entirely in the spiritual category. However, all of these topics are written about through my perspective as a Christian." Simply put they are all Christians, but are not a preachy Christian band like many others. to call it Christian Metal core is a stretch.Demon Prince Hosoku (talk) 23:28, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't care about your "research" I removed Christian Metalcore. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.242.38.28 (talk) 03:09, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok it doesn't matter if they are Christian or not, "Christian" doesn't define a sound so it can't be in a genre. Just call them Metalcore with Christian lyrics and be done with it if they are Christian. -Snook666 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Snook666 (talk • contribs) 02:35, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Infobox

We all know that AILD is not a christian metalcore band, but someone is writing on the infobox genre field "Christian Metalcore".

First of all, AILD is not a christian metalcore band, second, Template:Infobox_musical_artist says (in the genre field): The genre or genres of music performed by the act. Aim for generality (e.g. Hip hop rather than East Coast hip hop) and that means Metalcore rather than Christian Metalcore (if the were, but they aren't).--Jpkmaster (talk) 02:24, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

That's right. Since there is a lot of debate over this, i added a 'Christian Faith' section to the article, such as on the Flyleaf article. Maybe this might clear some things up. Thoughts? Riverpeopleinvasion (talk) 19:08, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed.--Jpkmaster (talk) 20:28, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

The quote provided from AILD's FAQ page clearly states that all members of the band are Christian, and that they thus consider themselves a Christian band. Jpers36 (talk) 15:24, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Template:Infobox_musical_artist:

The genre or genres of music performed by the act. Aim for generality (e.g. Hip hop rather than East Coast hip hop) and that means Metalcore rather than Christian Metalcore (if the were, but they aren't)

and, on their FAQ page, I could NOT find those words : "WE ARE A CHRISTIAN METALCORE BAND"

Aim for generality!

READ! READ! READ!

--Jpkmaster (talk) 17:14, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

First line: "I'm not sure what the difference is between five Christians playing in a band and a Christian band." As I Lay Dying identifies as both. In addition, please check WP:CIVIL. Jpers36 (talk) 17:33, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

There are diferences between Christians playing in a band and a Christian band, that's why he said "I'm not sure". I'm sorry if i'm being impolite, but many users always try to post their original research here, using as reference the AILD FAQ.--Jpkmaster (talk) 20:06, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

That's not original research, that's using common sense and deductive reasoning. Ron James 007 (talk) 05:08, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok lets just aim for generality, which means metalcore rather than christian metalcore since some users disagree. Riverpeopleinvasion (talk) 21:49, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, they are considered a Christian Metalcore Band. Their FAQ, which is on the article, even states it bluntly. You don't ahve to say "We Are A Christian band" to be one. The FAQ States that he does not see a difference between Christians in a band and a Christian band. So yes, if you use WP:Common then they are a Christian band. From http://www.metalunderground.com/interviews/details.cfm?newsid=12929 "darkstar: Would you consider As I Lay Dying as a Christian metal band?

Tim: Yeah. I mean, all 5 of us are Christians so I don’t know make us not a Christian band. But at the same time, we’ve never been known as a band that’s extremely preachy on stage. I think that we intelligently represent what we believe and gain people’s respect by good musicians. You know, playing our music is the first thing that we do. When people get the chance to dig into the band and find out what we’re about, then they can learn we’re behind all of our music." So yes, they are a Christian band. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 20:19, 16 June 2008 (UTC) EDIT: Remember: Just because a band does not SOUND Christian to you does not mean they aren't. Scaterd Few had that problem back in the 80s/90s. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 20:21, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I'd also like to add this interview: http://www.buzznet.com/tags/metalcore/video/2205201/ ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 22:14, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Reverted Template:Infobox_musical_artist#Genre --Kmaster (talk) 22:41, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Don't revert again. Those are sources, while as you have no sources that state they are not a Christian band. I kept Christian metal and Christian metalcore seperate in the infobox as well, since the vocalist clearly identifies the band as such. If you do not believe they are a Christian band, then that is your deal. I have the sources there, and if you want Generality, than "Christian Metal" or "CCM" are your genres. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 01:38, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Also want to add: Don't take it off the category, like you did. Again, I have the sources there You reverted an entire edit instead of reverting the template part. And again, WP:Common. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 01:44, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

It's completely irrelevant, not for beign christians As I Lay Dying would sound different than any metalcore band. Christian Metal is more a tag than a real metal genre. Interviews are not valid sources and the FAQ you have sourced is invalid since the link is broken and there's no place where you can read "We are a band that play Christian Metal" However, I will wait for a reply this time.--Kmaster (talk) 04:32, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Again, just because you ahve an issue with labeling a band a Christian band or wathever does not mean theya re not. Please read Christian metal page. That was dicussed there. The link just isn't working, site maintenence. Yes it's valid because it can be found elsewhere and we know that it was there to begin with anyways. Are they not a Christian band simply because their website is undergoing maintenence and that was a source? That's illogical. Are they not a Christian band, even though they said they are? That doesn't make much sense either since the band would know more about them being a Christian band than someone who is not a bandmember. And as for what you said, that's a common reply. Please read the Christian Metal article for details, as well as read the discussion page on it. Again, it does not matter what you think about Christian metal or what you think a band is, the band considers themselves as such, so it stays. And yes, an interview is valid when "tagging" or "labeling" a band in terms of lyrical content, etc. If that were not the case, then we'd have to take the Christian tag off of Michael W. Smith, Steve Taylor, and half of the CCM artists that have a page on them, Holy Soldier, and a plethora of others, which doesn't make much sense. There was a problem with this on the Lamest Edit War page twice. Once for the Underoath article and one, oddly enough, for the Nazism article (not about genre, of course, but about what kind of source to use when having a quote display what sometyhing is). If a band considers themselves a "Christian band" or whatnot, then that is what they are, since it isn't a genre by musical content. And yes, genre can be classified by lyrical content. Emo (which ranged from indie rock to hardcore), queercore(which is mostly hardcore, but has some punk and indie bands), etc are stylized by lyrical content in genre as well as musical content. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 15:23, 17 June 2008 (UTC) EDIT: By the way, here's a third party source (with a partial interview write) with the band being described as such. http://www.truepunk.com/interviews/as_i_lay_dying/ ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 15:31, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

>> Again, just because you ahve an issue with labeling a band a Christian band or wathever does not mean theya re not.

First of all, you don't know me, so stop presuming things about me, I have abstolutely no problem at all if As I Lay Dying were a "christian metal" metal band, but they aren't, they are a Metal Hardcore crossover band. I never said AILD were not christians, but that has nothing to do with the kind of music they are playing.

>>The link just isn't working, site maintenence. Yes it's valid because it can be found elsewhere and we know that it was there to begin with anyways.

No it's not, the source is invalid if the link isn't working, even if the site is in maintenence. Even if the link were working, you are interpreting that FAQ the way you want to be interpreted.

>> Again, it does not matter what you think about Christian metal or what you think a band is, the band considers themselves as such, so it stays.

Seems like you're forgetting something. You think AILD plays "Christian Metal" (wich is incorrect), That is your opinion, what YOU think, not a fact. There is a difference between being christians and play christian music.

>>If a band considers themselves a "Christian band" or whatnot, then that is what they are

Completely invalid argument. Here's an example; Trivium has stated in many interview that they are a Thrash Metal band. Bullet for my valentine says they are a Heavy Metal band. Caliban says they are a Hardcore band, but they are all metalcore bands.

>>And yes, genre can be classified by lyrical content Emo (which ranged from indie rock to hardcore), queercore(which is mostly hardcore, but has some punk and indie bands)

Real those articles first, and again, interviews are not valid sources. Seems like you still can not find the difference between a tag and a music genre. Queercore is a cultural and social movement. Emo genre stylistic origins are different from Hardcore punk/Indie rock.--Kmaster (talk) 22:39, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Though I do not believe a band can be a religious band or Christian band (I'm European, I don't come into contact with that system), I'd have to agree with IronCrow on this one(your user page needs work though mate, it's choppy and has spelling errors). It's common knowledge that As I Lay Dying considers themselves a "Christian band." You didn't read IronCrow's paragraph either, or the pages in question at least. Oh and metalcore is hardcore, so yes, Caliban is right when they call them selves that since whatever metalcore is, it is part of hardcore's subgenres(or whatever they call it). Kmaster - when a band describes themselves as being a Christian band, it is quite different from stylizing themselves as indie, hardcore, pop or rap because it not only encompasses the band's lyrical style, it encompasses their label, their tag, their identity(or essense). They are labeling them selves as being a band based on their religious values as being a collective whole of the group, so yes, they consider their band to be a "Christian Band." I do not see music in that way though, but that is personal, so I find it quite strange that I agree with ironcrow. If a band considers themselves as part of that movement (and in turn, cross-genre term), then it stays as is. You stated that Queercore is a movement - so is "Christian metal," Punk, Straight Edge and the like, though they are as well genres. Still, to me, the colour of it is all the same, to me music is music, however, since this Christian music exists and the band considers themselves to be affiliated with the Christian metal scene, then that is what it is, simply stated. I find it wierd too, because here Christian music is like church music or music you hear in cathedrals. Ironcrow stated that this went along with Underoath, like, they have a common "Christian" controversy. I have not heard any of their music but the discussion page has a good deal of relation to this. I don't see what Nazism has to do with all this, can you elaborate?. 64.234.34.248 (talk) 06:58, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I'd like to add that a band decides whether or not their band is "Christan." Others do not make that decision for them. Like Andy Warhol, many sources will tell you he is not a Christian, but in interviews he said he is. Can I do two paragraphs at seperate times? Ron James 007 (talk) 17:31, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

>>Oh and metalcore is hardcore

Is not that simple, Metalcore is not hardcore, is a fusion genre.

>>when a band describes themselves as being a Christian band, it is quite different from stylizing themselves as indie, hardcore, pop or rap because it not only encompasses the band's lyrical style, it encompasses their label, their tag, their identity(or essense).

Yes, it is different, but has nothing to do with the musical genre. Same thing with Queercore bands or Straight Edge bands. That's why it should not be listed on the infobox and it should be not removed the "Christian Faith" section (like IronCrow did)--Kmaster (talk) 19:43, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

So the debate isn't whether or not they are a Christian band but if they should have it in the infobox? Does that really matter? And yeah, it does does have to do with musical genre, it's a cross-genre term, mate - look at the Christian metal page for the meaning. And I think Ironcrow meant that the category list (at the bottom of the page) and the opening paragraph stay as Christian Metalcore, I'm not sure if he was referencing the infobox or not. He probably took the "Christian Faith" section out because it's redundant, but yeah, I think it should stay in too. Ron James 007 (talk) 21:37, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

They have a new FAQ link, which is here: http://www.asilaydying.com/faqs.html Ron James 007 (talk) 06:44, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

They are a christain meatlcore band. First, all of their members are christains, and second, the vocalist said that his christian fate is what influences his lyrics. Just because you think they're not christain doesn't make it so. They're are valid sources that say that they are christain, and no sources that say they aren't. Oh, BTW, Christain Metal is a type of music genre.Emo777 (talk) 07:01, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Pointless. first of all, we are not discussing if "Christian metal" is a real genre. But if you want to, I think is not, and that's why there are huge discussion on about that on its talk page. Let's use christian hardcore as an example; "Christian hardcore refers to hardcore punk and metalcore bands that promote Christian beliefs". Same thing with Christian Metal, it refers to heavy metal bands that promote Christian beliefs. No matter what a guy in allmusic.com can say.

>>>First, all of their members are christains, and second, the vocalist said that his christian fate is what influences his lyrics.

Just tell the the exact place where I wrote a sentence saying the opposite thing.

>>>They're are valid sources that say that they are christain, and no sources that say they aren't.

Again, you are missing the point, read the discussion before posting. I never said they weren't christians.

>>>Oh, BTW, Christain Metal is a type of music genre.

Great statement, but I don't see any arguements for that, not becuase you're a fan of Underoath that makes every band that has christian member is automatically a "christian metalcore band". Guess what, I don't see any reference to "christian metal" or "christian metalcore" on Underoath's article infobox nor first paragraph.

>>>So the debate isn't whether or not they are a Christian band but if they should have it in the infobox?

Read the thread title.

This is my idea for a first sentence, since you guys are so worried about the members' faith.

"As I Lay Dying is a christian metalcore band from San Diego, California."

In that sentence, you call tell the difference between what is their "tag" and what music they play. And the infobox genre should stay only as Metalcore. Ron James 007, I have read the christian metal article (so stop saying that i haven't) and all your arguements are based on this: "Although the term ”Christian metal” is used for the musical movement, it has established itself as a cross-genre term." and the reference for that is this: [3] basically the guy is saying "Christian metal can be soft.. like it can be harder", just let me quote this: "Not as hard as most heavy metal, it still has many of its trademarks, particularly loud guitars, bombastic riffs, long solos, and pseudo-operatic vocals. Christian metal falls between arena rock and pop-metal, though there are the occasional bands that are heavier." That's very informative huh? No. AILS plays Metal/Hardcore crossover, known as Metalcore. That's it, even if christian metal were a "real" genre, AILD don't fit on that. Only because Tim Lambesis wrote lyrics on his "christian perspective" is automatically a christian metal band? That don't even fall on the christian music category. IronCrow, you can not come here, change the article and then leave a message why. You have to start a discussion about it, (And we had already our consensus about WHAT should be listed on the infobox, seems like you didn't read anything, not even why there's a Christian Faith section)--Kmaster (talk) 18:03, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia has a rule on being civil, you should probably read it. You said: "AILS plays Metal/Hardcore crossover, known as Metalcore. That's it, even if christian metal were a "real" genre, AILD don't fit on that. Only because Tim Lambesis wrote lyrics on his "christian perspective" is automatically a christian metal band?" The band said they do play that type on their website, Christian metal being the type I am refering to. So yes, they do state they are a Christian band, regardless of what you have to say about it. You are assuming that they do not simply because you do not believe they do. I think IronCrow can agree to that. They band has already said they play Christian metal, they didn't say it was just from a Christian perspective, read the sources, especially the FAQ. Their FAQ states that they believe their music is of a Christian Band. Tim is the frontman of the band, so yes, if Tim says that, then that is what to go by more directly than you thinking they only play from a Christian perspective. For example: "How can you be a Christian band and go on tour with bands who represent themselves as evil, satan worshipers? We hope to intelligently represent a faith that has been very misrepresented in the entertainment industry..." If they werent a Christian band, they would have said so in the previous question and/or corrected the question-giver that they weren't when given that question, it is basic English, mate. The other sources, the interviews, are what we have for this article. The sources we have not only state, but imply that the group is a Christian band, not that they only play from a Christian perspective. If you do not see the band as being a Christian band, that's your problem, the band has said they are (or at least the sources of what we can compile from the band says they are). Ron James 007 (talk) 04:58, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

As Jpers said: "First line: "I'm not sure what the difference is between five Christians playing in a band and a Christian band." As I Lay Dying identifies as both." I think that is as clear as day, mate. If all the band members are Christians and they see no difference in all Christians in a band and a Christian band, then yeah... I don't know what Wikipedia's standards are on using reasoning, but... as far as I can tell, that's as blunt as it's going to get. I also see no consensus, I see a few editors who are not frequent editors of this page turn into a consensus without any notification of the people who edit this page on a certain basis. Maybe we should let IronCrow give his ideals, I don't see him editing much at all, and I think he would have something to say in this. Ron James 007 (talk) 05:00, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Christian metalcore is not a genre, its Wikipedia article even redirects to Christian metal. Music genres define sound, and the band's religious views have nothing to do with their sound. The infobox should simply state that they are metalcore, because that is their genre. The fact that they are a Christian band belongs in the article itself, as it is now. You guys are arguing over something trivial that really doesn't need to be argued over. Leave it how I left it, this really isn't something worth edit warring over. — ^FatalError 05:28, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

>>They band has already said they play Christian metal, they didn't say it was just from a Christian perspective.

Are you guys Christians in a band or a Christian band? I'm not sure what the difference is between five Christians playing in a band and a Christian band. If you truly believe something, then it should affect every area of your life. All five of us are Christians. I believe that change should start with me first, and as a result, our lyrics do not come across very "preachy." Many of our songs are about life, struggles, mistakes, relationships and other issues that don't fit entirely in the spiritual category. However, all of these topics are written about through my perspective as a christian.

— AILD

How can you be a Christian band and go on tour with bands who represent themselves as evil, satan worshipers? We hope to intelligently represent a faith that has been very misrepresented in the entertainment industry. There isn't much diversity of thought within metal music and I believe it is important for people to understand opposing views before drawing conclusions. I hope other bands and their fans have an open mind and respect for what we are saying, so it's fair for them to expect the same from us. If truth is the basis of our belief, then the questions other bands/fans have are an important way to understanding what/why we believe. Most of the bands we tour with would never hear a well represented explanation of Christianity if we just stayed home.

— AILD

Would you consider As I Lay Dying as a Christian metal band? Tim: Yeah. I mean, all 5 of us are Christians so I don’t know make us not a Christian band. But at the same time, we’ve never been known as a band that’s extremely preachy on stage. I think that we intelligently represent what we believe and gain people’s respect by good musicians. You know, playing our music is the first thing that we do. When people get the chance to dig into the band and find out what we’re about, then they can learn we’re behind all of our music

— allmusic.com

>>I think that is as clear as day, mate. If all the band members are Christians and they see no difference in all Christians in a band and a Christian band, then yeah...

You STILL don't get it, a "Christian Band"/"Christian Metal" it's just a tag not their music genre, it just the form that the band wants to be identified (and interview are not valid sources anyway), and is not only "my problem" like you said, FatalError, Riverpeopleinvasion and Snook666 agree too. "Chrisian Band" is because all members are christian, and lyrics are wrote in a christian pespective, while IronCrow has stated that "christian metal" is a real music genre. Even if christian metal were a "real genre", AILD's music genre is metalcore, not this:

Not as hard as most heavy metal, it still has many of its trademarks, particularly loud guitars, bombastic riffs, long solos, and pseudo-operatic vocals. Christian metal falls between arena rock and pop-metal, though there are the occasional bands that are heavier.

— allmusic.com

--Kmaster (talk) 18:46, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Kmaster pretty much summed it up right there. — ^FatalError 19:08, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

You still don't get it either, Kmaster. Can I finish before these edits turn into an edit war? The way it is now is perfect (though there still needs to be sources for just metalcore), which what I was trying to point to. I don't give two cents if it is in the infobox. Your use, Kmaster, of All Music Guide as a way to determine Christian metal shows me that you didn't read the article on Christian metal fully - you scanned it. But what is there now, I agree to and I think Ron should too, in order to quit this ridiculous bickering (though you should have proposed this isntead of editing in, but oh well). However, I should probably add that having Christian and Metalcore in the same or different link isn't a big deal (I did provide the link for the term Christian though, but it is seperate). In fact, what it has now is fine except I think the Christian faith section is redundant still. Secondly, Ron, I know you are a new user but you could be at least a bit more civil. Kmaster is just irritated, as much as I am, but I think he's trying his best not to do something stupid (like me). I've seen your edits for other articles and they appear to be fine, but remember that Wikipedia has a policy of being civil. All of this over the inclusion of two words in an infobox makes me laugh, and I do mean that literally. Also, as a side not, Kmaster, you used sources taht state they are a Christian group, but you emphasise another part. Remember: Would you consider As I Lay Dying as a Christian metal band? Tim: Yeah. I mean, all 5 of us are Christians so I don’t know make us not a Christian band. http://www.metalunderground.com/interviews/details.cfm?newsid=12929 Aside from that, NONE of the sources say it is ONLY from a Christian perspective, they say they are a Christian band and their lyrics are from a Christian perspective. Also, the deffinition of Christian metal is "Christian metal is a form of heavy metal music which, as well as its many subgenres, contains Christian lyrics and themes.[1]" ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 19:51, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I just want to add that we don't need a source for metalcore, as it is unlikely to be challenged. Pretty much every source in use on the article at the moment defines their music as metalcore, so I don't think we need a source for it. Now, if someone put, say, thrash metal in the infobox, we'd need a source, because a lot of people are likely to challenge that. About the Christian thing, I think it's fine as it is now. Although I do agree that the Christian faith section is a bit redundant. — ^FatalError 20:10, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah I guess we don't need a source for it, though there's a good deal of people who define their genre as Deathcore or Mathcore (I think it's laughable, but they are serious about it). I guess we can just watch and make sure. But yeah, I agree. By the way, shouldn't we archive this...? Heh...¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 20:35, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Done. — ^FatalError 20:53, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Christian

Why is their religion in the lead? The article even has a Christian faith section. I just don't get it, Christianity is the only religion that ppl try to stick in the lead sentence if the members are of that religion. I don't ever see Mormon rock, or atheist rock, etc. Why can't they just be a regular band with Christian members? Landon1980 (talk) 22:05, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Because saying "metalcore band with Christian members" sounds weird. This is the best way to put it without directly putting "Christian metalcore" in the infobox. It's not saying that the band is "Christian metalcore", it's saying it's a Christian band playing metalcore. — ^FatalError 22:13, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

To add to that, there are separate wikilinks to the Christian and metalcore articles. There is no link to Christian metalcore. And about the Christian faith section, I personally think it's redundant, as it's essentially the same thing as putting "Christian" in the lead, but in a needlessly long way. — ^FatalError 22:16, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with most of what you said, but if you just read the article it appears their genre is 'Christian metalcore', especially on the underoath article with nothing separating the two words. Landon1980 (talk) 22:30, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Also, this article already has a Christian faith section, so why does the band's religion need to be in the lead? Landon1980 (talk) 02:02, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I still completely disagree with your point of view, IronCrow, but since the discussion is over, I'm not going to argue anymore about "christian metal", at least not here. However, yes, there are some users that think AILD is a melodic death (Shadows Are Security)/deathcore (Shadows Are Security)/thrash metal (An Ocean Between Us) band. Yeah, even Mathcore (taking as an example "Distance is Darkeness") what is completely wrong. About the christian thing, we can do two things : remove the "Christian Faith" section OR remove "christian" from the first paragraph and simply leave the "Christian Faith" section --Kmaster (talk) 02:15, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

The problem with the Christian faith section is that it's just a quote. This is an encyclopedia, so I think it would be better to specifically state their religious views in the first sentence than have a random quote explain it halfway through the article. We need to either rewrite the section or remove it completely, because as it is, it's not worth keeping. Let's discuss further on my talk page, so we don't have to jump from article to article. — ^FatalError 03:33, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

When asked if they are a Christian band, the band simply stated YEAH. TThe openign paragraph IS NTO REFERING TO GENRE. It's refering to classification. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 00:05, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

You still don't understand that a 'Christian band' does not mean they play Christian music, the music they play is metalcore. In genre related terms they are a metalcore band. Landon1980 (talk) 02:51, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Now you're being silly. Don't give me that. I know what it means. Please see my talk page. A Christian band DOES play Christian music. Do you have a source that says otherwise? No. Wikipedia's article on Christian Music - read it up. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 03:12, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Read this and this, for your further replies please. --Kmaster (talk) 03:21, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Don't give me the WP:Civil. I'm not in a bad mood right now and I'm not trying in any way to be rude, so stop, please. Again, you have no source that states a Christian band doesn't play Christian music. That's absurd. If they didn't they wouldn't be called a Christian band. Secondly - I give up, completely. This is, as I said before, much like the Ejaculation article. I'm going to stop replying to you guys, and I'm going to end this conflict. Eventually, someone is going to add it back any ways, so I'm not worried. I just quit. I can not believe that you guys are editing like this, it's ridiculous. WP:COMMON. Please, in your future edits, read that and take it to heart. Don't be abuse it though, i've seen editors do that. I'm tired of proving my case time and time again. Christian bands play Christian music. There's anot a single band out thatere... nevermind, I said I'd quit. If I didn't know any better, I'd say there's sockpuppetry going on, but... I guess I'll just use that old quote "If you are still arguing, have you really won?" I'm done. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 04:01, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

You are being uncivil and you are taking things too seriously. Is not sockpuppetry, it just a couple of users that disagree with your point of view. You have to understand that you are not always right.--Kmaster (talk) 18:24, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Tim Lambesis said clearly that they're a Christian band. The term Christian band is a Christian concept, that the musicians play with Christian purpose, that are be praise God and spread the Gospel. (JoaquimMetalhead (talk) 00:59, 16 June 2009 (UTC))

Tim Lambesis never said the group is a Christian band. AILD is not a Christian band. • GunMetal Angel 01:27, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLE5pTq1ghQ at 0:37 seconds in Tim says AILD is a Christian band, therefore saying that AILD "never have stated they are a Christian band" is totally false. 128.189.134.95 (talk) 05:16, 17 February 2011 (UTC)KevinB

I believe that there should be a link in the genre section of the infobox to Christian metal. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:02, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Has anything changed since the previous discussions to merit it? Xombie (talk) 22:06, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

{outdent|::::::}} I'm not entirely sure what you think the conclusion was. It could be that Christian metal is not a genre. It could be that the band is not a Christian metal band. Since both are incorrect. All of the news sources I have seen label the band as Christian metal so it would be odd to even assume there's not a RS. https://www.google.com/search?q=As+I+Lay+Dying+Christian+metal&safe=off&hs=IgH&tbm=nws So to answer your question, yeah, a lot has changed. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:15, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

I believe the Christian reference should be removed. The band does not express this belief anymore - see this reference. Gtamorim (talk) 08:32, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

References

Christian metal

Since it's kind of annoying having to jump from article to article, let's discuss the issue here. — ^FatalError 03:33, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I really don't know what else to say, I've made most of my points already. I have nothing against Christianity I'm a Christian myself. I just feel that the bands that aren't in the Christian music genre shouldn't have it in the lead right beside the genre. I make mistakes just like everyone else, I might not be right it's just my opinion. I hate edit warring so I'll not be reverting anyone's changes from here on out regarding this. I changed the lead on the underoath article to say they are a metalcore band comprised of Christian members; I'm sure that edit will last a long time :). Landon1980 (talk) 03:41, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Like I said, I have mixed feelings about this. I think that the band's religion is not really that important to the article, but I still think we should mention it because it's good to know. However, like someone pointed out, you don't see any "Mormon rock" bands running around anywhere, so that makes me wonder if the religion is really important enough to put into the lead. Even look at the article for Creed, which makes no reference to their Christian faith (except in the "Controversies" section, which is completely original research). Thoughts? — ^FatalError 03:45, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't know, other editors seem a little touchy about this and I'm not out to piss anyone off. I completely agree that band's that are closely tied to Christianity should mention so in the article, I don't even care for it being in the lead I just don't think it should be directly beside their genre. I think that if the band isn't a full-blown Christian whatever band they should not be labeled as one. Most of these bands do not want to be labeled as one either just because they are Christians, some do others do not want to 'pigeon hole' themselves, because a lot of ppl will not listen to a band just because of it. Landon1980 (talk) 03:53, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I completely agree with you. The problem arises when editors use Christianity as a label more than an actual piece of information. For bands that want to be labeled Christian rock/metal, awesome, good for them, but for the bands that don't, I feel it would be better to mention their religion elsewhere in the article. The problem is that I don't think it's important enough to have its own section (except maybe for those bands that sell their music with their religion), so where else would it go? — ^FatalError 03:56, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm like you, I want it there I just know where to put it. I do think it is a problem that needs fixed, on most of the articles on bands with Christian members that I have seen Christianity is one of the key points of the article. Like you said, it seems to be a label other than information. If you will look most of the sources for the Christian genre in the infobox merely say they are Christians, or say they are a Christian band. Landon1980 (talk) 04:08, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. So we need to decide where to put it. All the ways I can think of would sound awkward. "A metalcore band composed of Christian members" souds weird. Maybe add a second sentence? Something along the lines of, "The band is composed completely of Christian members.<reference here>" — ^FatalError 04:21, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

The latter sounds good to me, I just wonder if others will agree? Landon1980 (talk) 04:23, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. I think we need to remove "christian" from the first paragraph and add a second sentence. Or rewrite the Christian Faith section.--Kmaster (talk) 04:24, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I don't see a point for the Christian faith section on the As I Lay Dying article. For August Burns Red it actually serves a purpose, because they specifically said they don't like the "Christian metalcore" label, and that's the point of the paragraph, but As I Lay Dying did not say anything like that, they just mentioned that they were Christians. — ^FatalError 04:27, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I personally think a second sentence would best suit that particular article. Landon1980 (talk) 04:30, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Done. Same for the Underoath article? — ^FatalError 04:33, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

HAHA I was edit conflicted on the article doing the same thing you just did. Yes, let's try it on the Underoath article and see what others think. Landon1980 (talk) 04:36, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Hah nice. Too fast. =P Finished with Underoath. I got distracted by the many other mistakes in the article so it took me a while. You can change it around if you think I put it in a bad spot, I don't really care. Let's see how long that lasts before someone reverts it. — ^FatalError 04:50, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

No, I think where you put it is fine. I hope others are satisfied; I don't see why they wouldn't be. Landon1980 (talk) 05:12, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

That would be because I didn't know how, thanks for doing that. I made the user page just to have one, I don't know how to do anything to it. Landon1980 (talk) 05:18, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Ah, okay. Well there you go. Cheers. — ^FatalError 05:23, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

So far so good, still early though. Landon1980 (talk) 16:39, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Landon, the band states specifically that they are a "Christian band." Whether you like it or not,, this went through a consensus and you edited against it. That is what the band considers themselves. Yes, it is a religion, but classifying themselves as a "Christian band" is quite different than jsut classifying genre. I kept it out of the infobox because the band plays metalcore, so i kept Christian out of it. I edited it back into the main paragraph because there are at least three or four cources that say they are a "Christian band." The sources state that. This is not a place for you to put what you think about a band. The sources provide what to place. Please do not edit it back out because this is getting irritating. Incredibly irritating. There was a long, (INCREDIBLY long) conversation and debate about this and the descisionwas to keep "Christian" in the opening paragraph. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 23:56, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Also: Fatla - there are also other bands taht have religious "genres" or "labels." There's Jewish Rap, there's Muslim Rock (it's called something else), and others. Since we live in a world that is predominatly Christian or with Christian influence, we see it more often. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 23:58, 21 June 2008 (UTC) You are also compelteing neglecting this entire paragraph:

Bassist Grant Brandall has explained that Underoath's music has been influenced by various bands such as Refused, At The Drive-In, Jimmy Eat World, and Radiohead.[6] Underoath's members are openly Christian and have stated on numerous occasions that they are a Christian band. However, as vocalist Spencer Chamberlain explains, "[We are Christian but] in a different way. We’re not like your average Christian band."[10] He further explains that Christianity is the "backbone of our lives, especially in the way that we handle certain things, but it’s not so much the backbone of our lyrics. It’s not like every song is a lesson from the Bible or something. It’s just normal life struggles."[10] Keyboardist Christopher Dudley had also stated that a majority of Underoath's audience is not Christian, nor are the bands they would often tour with.[1] Though the band has been noted for "setting precedent in both Christian rock and beyond", only a portion of their albums are sold in the Christian marketplace.[33] Chamberlain said, "I look at us as just another band in the secular market like with all these other hardcore bands and we just happen to be a Christian band that has different beliefs."[16]

The sources all state the bands are Christian: This is both with the As I Lay Dying and underoath Articles... Please stop remvoing them. When asked if they were a Christian band, As I Lay Dying Said "YEAH." I showed you the source... There's also the thing with Underoath. There was a huge discussion on whether or not to classify them as a Christian band and the band stated that they are. You also forget we have the Christian category for a reason. This is REALLY starting to piss me off, especially since you are editing in the middle of a conflict. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 00:03, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

First of all, you reverted a lot of my edits that had nothing to do with the religion; next time, please check the edits before blindly reverting them. Second of all, we still have "Christian" in the first paragraph, so I don't see what the problem is. Read the second sentence: "The band's entire line-up consists of Christian members." What's the difference between being a Christian band and being a band with Christian members? You seemed to support AILD's quote about that, so what's the problem here? — ^FatalError 00:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

You don't seem to get the point, we know they are a Christian band, but that doesn't mean we have to put it in the lead. As AILD said, what's the difference between a Christian band and a band with Christian members? — ^FatalError 00:06, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

And lastly, keep your cool. Don't get pissed off about some random debate on Wikipedia with people you don't even know. We're just trying to improve the article, and your attitude is not helping. — ^FatalError 00:08, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I can't keep this up anymore... You still seem to forget that this has been an open debate with no consensus. I have a right to get pissed off when people keep doing that. I have a right to get pissed off when what I've been trying to do has been thrown out with no consensus on my part. "Christian" is the classification of the band. Taking out "Christian" takes away half of what a band is. I give up - this is almost as ridiculous as the Ejaculation page debate. My attitude comes from me getting off work at a bad time. Icomes from me working on these articles to keep them improved, and people do junk like this. There's no way I can keep that. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 00:12, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

But you're the only one that is arguing for your position. The rest of us have reached a consensus. "'Christian' is the classification of the band." Why is the religion so important? Bands aren't classified by religion, they are classified by their music. Underoath doesn't sell music with their religion, they sell it with their music. The band's religion is not as important as you give it credit for; it's just another fact about the band. — ^FatalError 00:18, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

No. That's not right. "Bands aren't classified by religion, they are classified by their music." That's not true. Read "Christian Music." Of course it's a classification. And of course I'm the only one aruging my point - all the rest of the editors who argued this point had reached a consensus and the debate "ended." The band is labeled as a "Christian band." It's as simple as that. What I've done, including the sources, are gone. You could at least put them somewhere else (like in their appropriate section), but no, you refuse to. I say at least keep the Chrsitian faith section in now. There was no consensus - it was you and another editor posting what YOU wanted. I was left out entirely. I don't care anymore. My input was for nothing. iw asted all of this time, using sources, policy, etc., and all fo it is now for nothing. All I ask is to keep Christian in the opening paragraph, it's a classification. That's all I wanted in the article, simple as that. But no. It can't be done because you think it isn't a classification, when, according to the many "Christian music" - related articles, it is. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 00:25, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Um, "Christian" is still in the first paragraph, I thought I made that clear. The sources and everything are still there. Read the actual article. I don't see your problem. The debate earlier was about whether to put "Christian" in the infobox or the article, and the consensus was to keep it in the article. Completely different debate; I kept it in the article, I just moved it one sentence down. — ^FatalError 00:29, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

"All the band Memebers are Chrsitian" isn't saying they are a Christian band, I thought I made MYSELF clear. I don't see it in the As I Lay Dying Article either. All the band members being Christian doesn't mean that they are a Christian band. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 00:31, 22 June 2008 (UTC) EDIT: it's only in the As I Lay Dying article because I added it back in, by the way. Underoath's article should have it in the opening simply because they state that they are a Christian band in a more clear way than As I Lay Dying did. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 00:33, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Like I said before, what's the difference between being a Christian band and being a band with all Christians? You keep failing to answer that because there is no difference. As I Lay Dying even said so! — ^FatalError 00:37, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

That's original research. Please do not put words in my mouth either. Many, infact most people know that there is a difference between the two, please read the articles I showed you. AILD just believes that there isn't, so they think of themselves as both. I didn't say that I believed there was no difference, nor did I say that I believed As I Lay Dying's words on that aspect. Underoath states that they simply are a Christian band and that they classify themselves as such. That's why it should stay. That's all I ask, that's all.¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 00:46, 22 June 2008 (UTC) EDIT: I'd also like to add that another reason I'm saying put it in the intro paragraph is simply because of this debate. The band says over and over again that they are a Christian band, and it has made way for debates on both sides of the argument. The intro is a summary. Simply stating that they are all Christians is implying that they are just that, only Christians in a band, when there is a difference. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 00:55, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I just want to say, The band has stated that there's no difference between being a Christian band and being a band with all Christians, so why is this so important and irritating to you? I personally think this "faith" thing should be noted not in the first sentence, it should be on the second one, becuase it's less confusing and more explanatory. AILD is a music band, we have to focus their music, not their faith. Anyway it should be noticed on the article that they're christian, because it's relevant, but not THAT relevant (Heh, you will never see AILD playing on a church) Same thing with Underoath. and I have told you a million times, interviews (FAQ) are not valid sources, so don't use them. And this goes for you two, Do not edit the article before giving a proper reason, we don't want to start an edit war.--Kmaster (talk) 02:32, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

EDIT: Interviews are not valid sources when we are talking about a band's music genre, so I think they're valid this time, my bad.--Kmaster (talk) 02:38, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Christian isn't a genre specifically, it's a classification, so yes, an interview as a source works. A third party source cannot tell a band that they are a Christian band - the band does it themselves. If we were to use only third party sources for genre, I can guarentee you we souldn't get Slayer, Megadeth, or Pantera's genre straight. It's as simple as that. And Christian bands don't always play in churches - infact, hardly any of them actually do, so your point is moot. And again, just because you think that their Christianity doesn't matter, it's a big deal to the band and notable simply because it is a big issue with a band, especially since it makes it into their FAQ. FAQs can be used as a source. If third party sources stated that Tim Lambesis was homosexual and he stated in his FAQ that he isn't, where would we go from there? Again, YOU don't decide whether they are a Christian band, nor do you decide if it is a big deal. That's original research and has no place here. Being a "Christian band" is a big deal, both commerically, musically, and to the bands. That's why Wikipedia has a category for it. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 02:52, 22 June 2008 (UTC) EDIT: Also wanted to add that if you don't think taht Christian is part of their classification, then why the heck are you saying an interview isn't a viable source for saying they are a "Christian band?" Again, just because you don't think Christian bands exist doesn't mean Wikiepdia thinks the same. You said "my bad," but you're still using that, that's what you've used to discuss your end of the points. That's contridicting yourself. And don't say they don't concentrate on their faith, if you read those sources, they saying that being a Christian effects everything they do. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 02:58, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

So if a band is inspired by reading short stories and watching the sunset, and they turn to these two things for comfort and it fuels what they do we should put in the lead sentence 'short-story rock' and they are a 'sunset band', right? Before Christian is in the very first sentence the band needs to make actual Christian music, meaning their product must be 'Christian whatever' If a Christian grows a tomato it is still just a tomato, it isn't an 'anointed Christian tomato' Landon1980 (talk) 03:11, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

>>Christian isn't a genre specifically, it's a classification, so yes, an interview as a source works. A third party source cannot tell a band that they are a Christian band - the band does it themselves. If we were to use only third party sources for genre, I can guarentee you we souldn't get Slayer, Megadeth, or Pantera's genre straight.

Wow, I told you it was a mistake, you don't need to argue about that, stop being so whine.

>>And Christian bands don't always play in churches

I was joking lol, that why there's a "Heh".

>>just because you think that their Christianity doesn't matter.

You are the only one person here that takes AILD faith too serioulsy. And many users have agreed with my point of view. You forgot to type "...just because you ALL think...".

>> FAQs can be used as a source. If third party sources stated that Tim Lambesis was homosexual and he stated in his FAQ that he isn't, where would we go from there?

Again, I told you, my bad, how many times I have to say that? I understand you are irritated but just take a big deep breath, and read what you type before posting. And most important, be civil.

>>Again, YOU don't decide whether they are a Christian band, nor do you decide if it is a big deal.

So you do? I am not deciding anything, I'm not even editing the page, However you continously edit and edit again the page, like if you had the last word on this.

>>That's original research and has no place here.

I have not made any research here, I'm just defending my point of view, and other users agree with that, following the Wikipedia standards at all time, that's why I told you that interviews are not valid sources when we were talking about the bands genre.

>>Being a "Christian band" is a big deal, both commerically, musically, and to the bands.

Now that's original research.

>>That's why Wikipedia has a category for it.

Irrelevant, Wikipedia has a category for everything, that's why it's called an Encyclopedia.--Kmaster (talk) 03:15, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Kmaster - You still ahven't read the pages for Christian music, rock, metal, etc. It clearly states that they are Cross-genre terms. "Again, YOU don't decide whether they are a Christian band, nor do you decide if it is a big deal." - If the band says they are a Christian band, I'm not the one deciding it, am I? "...I told you that interviews are not valid sources when we were talking about the bands genre." - If you think Christian isn't part of their genre, then the interview would be a valid source. Also, not all of them are interviews. I gave a third party source and you ignored it. I've already discussed your otehr points. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 16:26, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I have read the Christian metal yes, it states ON SECOND PARAGRAPH that they are Cross-genre terms. TERMS. TAGS. not music genre. But, in the first sentence we find this: "Christian metal is a form of heavy metal music" And we all disagree with that. That's all. Have you ever read christian hardcore article? "Christian hardcore refers to hardcore punk and metalcore bands that promote Christian beliefs" it's contradicted with christian metal isn't it? Yes, the bands says they are a Christian band, but they also said that there is no difference between a band with christians and a christian band, so why it's so important to you the christian band tag and not otherwise?--Kmaster (talk) 18:38, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

This talk has nothing to do here, I'm going to move it to Talk:As I Lay Dying (band)--Kmaster (talk) 18:49, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I've ended this arugument. I'm too old to keep it up, I guess. I'm amazed at how you'd edit without concerning my views, but oh well. I'm really done. This is the lamest discussion I've ever been in, no offense to you, I know you are acting in good faith, but saying something similiar to "A Christian band does not play Christian music" is laughable. Adios and happy editing. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 04:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

This is how it ended on the Family Force Five article, he gave up and accused everyone of sock puppetry. I don't understand you, you admit that the genre of the bands in question is metalcore, yet you say their music is Christian music. They aren't making music for only Christians, they are doing it for everyone. I just don't see the problem here, the first paragraph still clearly states the members are Christians. If the bands do not make music of the Christian genre the word Christian does not need to be beside their genre in the lead sentence. The bands that do fit the Christian genre(s) it belongs there. This seems like a no-brainer to me. Landon1980 (talk) 04:48, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Now you are putting words in my mouth. I didn't accuse anyone of sockpuppety, I said, "If I didn't know any better." You are uncivil as they come. And Christian music is not for just Christians - THat's one of the points of Christian music, to be outreach not internal. They state they are a Christian band. it's as simple as that. ¤IrønCrøw¤ (Speak to Me) 16:24, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

If anyone is being uncivil, it's you. And just for some advice, "if I didn't know any better" means you meant it. But anyway, I still have mixed thoughts about this. On one hand, I agree that the band should not be labeled "Christian metal" just because their members are Christian. This is especially true for Underoath (I don't know about AILD), because their lyrics have nothing to do with religion, which contradicts the definition of Christian music/metal. (That's not original research, that's straight from the article.) However, I have to agree with IronCrow on the fact that there are numerous sources that speficially call them a Christian metalcore band, and sources are a big deal in Wikipedia. So while I don't think it's necessarily "right", I think writing "Christian metalcore" would be more appropriate for an encyclopedia. However, I'll wait for another opinion before saying more. — ^FatalError 23:08, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

No, Christian metalcore is exactly like the "christian metal" problem, we're talking about music genres, not tags. Christian metalcore is not a finished article anyway, so that wouldn't help. Heres the deal:

	Paragraph
1)	As I Lay Dying is a metalcore band from San Diego, California. Formed in 2001, the band's line-up consists of vocalist Tim Lambesis, drummer Jordan Mancino, lead guitarist Nick Hipa who is originally from the Philippines, rhythm guitarist Phil Sgrosso, and bassist Josh Gilbert, all of whom are Christians. Signed to Metal Blade Records, As I Lay Dying has released four studio albums, one split album, and one compilation album.
2)	As I Lay Dying is a Christian metalcore band from San Diego, California. Formed in 2001, the band's line-up consists of vocalist Tim Lambesis, drummer Jordan Mancino, lead guitarist Nick Hipa, rhythm guitarist Phil Sgrosso, and bassist Josh Gilbert. Signed to Metal Blade Records, As I Lay Dying has released four studio albums, one split album, and one compilation album.

We just have to decide what goes first. I personally think option number 1 is the most appropiate. What do you guys think?--Kmaster (talk) 23:22, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't mean to use Christian to describe the genre, we already went over that. But I'm just saying that sources specifically call them a Christian band. I don't know...I'm still undecided. I think we should wait for another opinion. — ^FatalError 23:29, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, you guys know where I stand regarding this. We all know Underoath's genre is metalcore. So I think it should be like every other article on wikipedia and the lead describe them in genre terms, not religion. I see no need to do things different here. Landon1980 (talk) 23:54, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Funny, they're having a lot of the same debates on the talk page of the List of Christian metal bands article. And As I Lay Dying and Underoath are both on the list. — ^FatalError 00:08, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Even more funny, IronCrow edit all those articles, most frequently the christian metal one (talking about original research huh?) I agree with you Landon, but there's thousand of sources saying that AILD is a "christian (tag) metalcore (genre)" band, that's the problem.--Kmaster (talk) 00:24, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but it is clearly a tag, it is undisputed that the band's genre is metalcore. Iron Crow even uses first-party sources because according to him the tag has nothing to do with their genre. To be 'Christian________' aren't they supposed to have Christian themes and lyrics? I know I keep saying this, but on every other article the describes the band in genre related terms, why should it be different here? It's like he doesn't even read my comments, he repeatedly says that I say Christian bands do not play Christian music. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't a bands genre the kind of music they play? For example 'alternative rock' bands play alternative rock 'Christian rock' bands play Christian rock and so on. Landon1980 (talk) 02:37, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I swear this is why i made the "Christian Faith" section long ago, to show that the band are Christians but they don't actually play Christian music. Isn't that the best solution? Jakisbak (talk) 21:08, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I just got done reading this section and I have to say... I agree with Ironcrow up there. Now please here me out before you all jump on me. While some of the points you make are true, I have read through the bands articals and sources and all, and while it says there lyrics aren't about normal christain stuff, they're still christain. Take Underoath for example, they have said that they don't write the usual christain lyrics, but they write them all from a Christain's point of view. Also, people say that Underoath's and As I Lay Dying's lyrics are not christain, however if you look at them and read them you'll find that they have really deep christain meaning to them. I agree that they are a christain band and should be listed as such. Besides, a christain band is a band with all members who are christain. What's wrong with listing them as such? I'm sorry but I don't get it.Emo777 (talk) 07:52, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

You haven't read the discussion. It's about the "christian metal" tag, not if "are they a christian band or not". Doesn't matter if they're christian or not, AILD is a metalcore band, that is what we were discussing, their genre, not their faith. There is a consensus and any edit would be reverted.--Kmaster (talk) 05:25, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

I have read the discussion, i'm sorry if my response was a little bit long, but what I was trying to say was that I think they should be listed as Christain Metalcore. If we all agree they're christain and that they're metalcore, what's wrong with christian metalcore? No one had a problem with it before hand, why now?Emo777 (talk) 19:14, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

If you truly have read the discussion you should know why. Christian is their religion, metalcore is their genre and putting the two together looks as if their a 'Christian metalcore' band, not a Christian 'metalcore' band. Look around wikipedia, the lead is for the band's genre, not religion. I don't see the problem here, the first paragraph is very clear that all the band members are Christians. In genre related terms their not a Christian band, their a metalcore band. The only way this band is a 'Christian band' is by personal perception, meaning some think them being Christians make them a 'Christian band'. There is no need in continuing this discussion, we have already covered everything. We're doing nothing but beating a dead horse. If you implement your change here are you going to go around to the band articles with atheist members and change their lead to a 'Atheist____' band, and to the ones that the members are Mormons to a 'Mormon band'? Before Christian is in the lead sentence it needs to be the band's genre, and that isn't the case here, we do all agree on that. Landon1980 (talk) 19:36, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

That's right, and there is not even a real Christian metalcore article yet. (but I think it should stay that way, until another christian music fan come here claiming "Christian metalcore" to be a real music genre, or something like that)--Kmaster (talk) 04:56, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

First of all guys, if you go to AILD's wikipedia page you can see what the band has to say about this, it should answer the questions to this arguement. And secondly the big mistake you are making here is also argueing over whether its Christian music or metal. The answer is both, they are a Christian band but there music isn't just simply Christian, it's also metal. Their music isn't Christian as in the genre Christian, rather they are metal and they are Christian and it influences their lyrics and lifestyles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.170.39.146 (talk • contribs)

Just a thought, and I know this whole conflict is old news, but if what Iron Crow said is just true about the band considering themselves Christian, then the the line in the "Christian Faith" section (the section which I believe was developed out of poor wikipedia article building skills) which is cited and states "He also mentioned that the lyrics to most songs "are about life, struggles, mistakes, relationships and other issues that don't fit entirely in the spiritual category." really contradicts to what a lot of people saying. It's really silly, because people who are labeling AILD as CCM contradicts what Tim Lambesis was saying when he stated that he didn't know the difference between five Christians in a band and a Christian band. They don't want to be labeled, and that's what people on this talk page are doing.

Let's sum up what everyone before me with my opinion is trying to say- Regardless of their personal beliefs, the music of As I Lay Dying would not be considered CCM or anything related. That sounds better, right? WiiAlbanyGirl (talk) 16:16, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

References

"Christian faith" section

I agree with removing Christian metalcore from the genre list; I understand the argument that this is a culture/scene and not a genre. I will not argue with removal of "Christian" from the first paragraph, since to some points of view the band is not clearly a Christian band. However, this lack of clarity requires explanation in the article -- rather than saying "AILD is a Christian band" or "AILD is not a Christian band", the best option is to let the band speak for itself. Jpers36 (talk) 20:59, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

We agreed that it was redundant, [4] that's why.--Kmaster (talk) 21:03, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

There was no agreement that the "Christian faith section" is redundant -- in fact, the general consensus was that it should stay. Only IronCrow and FatalError suggested it might be redundant, while you, me, Riverpeopleinvasion, and RonJames007 agreed that it should stay. As you said, "Yes, it is different, but has nothing to do with the musical genre. Same thing with Queercore bands or Straight Edge bands. That's why it should not be listed on the infobox and it should be not removed the "Christian Faith" section (like IronCrow did)." Jpers36 (talk) 21:16, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

haha i remember making that section Jakisbak (talk) 21:05, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I was making emphasis that no one can come here and remove a section without giving a proper discussion first. That's why. And there is an agreement about the Christian Faith. Just read : I said "I think we need to remove "christian" from the first paragraph and add a second sentence. Or rewrite the Christian Faith section." then, FatalError "Personally, I don't see a point for the Christian faith section on the As I Lay Dying article. For August Burns Red it actually serves a purpose, because they specifically said they don't like the "Christian metalcore" label, and that's the point of the paragraph, but As I Lay Dying did not say anything like that, they just mentioned that they were Christians." and finally, Landon1980 "I personally think a second sentence would best suit that particular article."--Kmaster (talk) 21:31, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Well personally i think it should stay, it explains their religious beliefs along with their genre. Jakisbak (talk) 21:33, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't care either way, just whatever you guys think is best for the article. Landon1980 (talk) 00:15, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

The section is completely redundant. It is the exact same thing as stating that the band is Christian, but it instead takes up a whole section of the article. And having an entire section for one quote looks bad and is pointless. Now, if the section were to be rewritten in a way that it actually served a purpose other than taking up unneeded space (no offense to the author), then I wouldn't have a problem with it, but as it is, there is no reason it should be kept in the article. I instead think that quote should be used as a reference for the fact that they are Christian. — ^FatalError 01:24, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

But the very problem is that certain editors (Kmaster, for one) claim that the quote does not state that the band is Christian. Instead of pushing the Christian / not Christian angle, the compromise would be to use the direct quote instead. Jpers36 (talk) 02:30, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

But just placing the quote there does nothing. Like I said, if the section were to be rewritten to describe the quote, using pieces of it as citations, that would be fine, but a sole quote with nothing behind it doesn't help the article at all. Not to mention it looks bad. And Kmaster didn't say the quote doesn't state that the band is Christian, he is trying to say that having Christian members does not make a band Christian, which has nothing to do with the quote. — ^FatalError 02:53, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I think that a rewrite would be fine. Jakisbak (talk) 10:53, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) Ok, so I might be getting Kmaster and Jpkmaster mixed up -- are they the same? If so, is Kmaster in agreement that As I Lay Dying is a Christian band? Jpkmaster stated, 'There are diferences between Christians playing in a band and a Christian band, that's why he said "I'm not sure".' I took this to mean that Jpkmaster reads the quote as not saying that AILD is a Christian band. On the other hand, I read the quote as saying that AILD is a Christian band. In order to avoid arguing over our differing readings of the quote, I thought we came to a consensus that the quote itself should stand instead of our interpretations of it, in order to avoid an edit war as well as possible OR issues. Jpers36 (talk) 13:52, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

As I said before, I don't really object or support the section, but I would like to see the section rewritten. In it's current form it serves no purpose but taking up space doing something that is already done. I don't like how bare quotes look either. If one of you would rewrite the section to make it work that would be nice, if not I will give it a try. Writing isn't one of my strong points, but I will see what I can do if no one else wants to. Landon1980 (talk) 15:38, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

You can not use that quote as saying that AILD is a Christian band, you can only use it for proving that AILD can't see a difference between a Christian band and a band with Christians. However you can quote that AILD is a Christian band with other sources, like interviews. I wouldn't mind if you guys want to rewrite the Christian faith section, I was just discussing the IronCrow's christian metal tag as a real music genre (wich is, completely incorrect).--Kmaster (talk) 18:01, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I took a stab at it. I'm not the best writer so it probably sucks. If anyone wants to change it around or whatever, feel free. — ^FatalError 19:18, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Line "but never have stated they are a Christian band" is untrue and should be removed Watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLE5pTq1ghQ at 0:37 seconds in Tim says AILD is a Christian band, therefore saying that AILD "never have stated they are a Christian band" is totally false and should be removed. That part should only read "As I Lay Dying have stated on numerous occasions that all of the members of the group are Christians. When asked if they're a Christian band or Christians in a band, (...)". 128.189.134.95 (talk) 05:16, 17 February 2011 (UTC)KevinB

That part has been removed since no one protested against not removing it. 128.189.208.57 (talk) 21:50, 21 February 2011 (UTC)KevinB