Talk:Cathal Brugha

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Discussion[edit]

Where, and how, did he die?[edit]

OK, he was shot in the thigh. But where was he shot, and what was he doing when he was shot? Was he shot as he ran out of a house/shop on a street in Dublin with a gun in each hand to face the Free State forces shouting 'No Surrender'? And is that street now called Cathal Brugha street (previously Gregg Lane)? 193.1.172.163 14:12, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

More or less, yes. I'm not sure whether Cathal Brugha Street is the exact location of the shooting, although I think it probably is. I'm adding the relevant details now. I am also taking out a few 'gossipy' details with a view to getting a more factual article. Scolaire 16:07, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I always understood the building is the Hammam Building on the corner of O'Connell Street and Cathedral Street - the big Burgerking. Cathal Brugha Street is further up Upper O'Connell Street, just north of the Gresham Hotel.

The Hammam Building (not Burger King but the building next door) is on the site of the Hammam Hotel, where the insurgents had their HQ. Brugha left the building by the rear exit and then came back towards the Free State troops, who fired on him. It could have been either on Cathedral Street or Cathal Brugha Street. Scolaire 20:27, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Brugha & Collins[edit]

When this article/stub discusses the rivalry between Collins and Brugha, and discussed that Brugha wished to carry the war to England. Didn't Brugha suggest that the IRA target theatres with machinegun fire? Wasn't that in fact vetoed by Collins and DeV who were horrfied? --V. Joe 07:19, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

The answer to that is 'I don't know', but in any event it is not a key moment either in Irish history or in Brugha's life, so I don't think it belongs in an encyclopedia.
Scolaire 19:17, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
If Brugha did in fact make such an offer, it is crucial as a testament to the character of the man, especially as he was held in such regard by IRA men. If I find the reference again, I will probably use it. The trouble is, its a paper source. Cheers V. Joe 22:19, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Another question/Wolfe Tones song[edit]

Is everyone sure about the usuage of the 'Tone song being appropriate? The Tones did a whole series of hagiography about various Irish rebels, although I always found the one about Collins to be full of faint praise. Notice that song is not included in this. I'm a little worried about the copyright status. Thanks again, PS. sorry to be so late responding V. Joe 22:19, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Wolfe Tone Annual not Wolfe Tones the band[edit]

The song is not by the Wolfe Tones. It was penned by Brian O Higgins who was a comrade of Cathal Brughas and a fellow member of Dail Eireann. It is not copyrighted. The Wolfe Tone Annual was a yearly historical publication by O Higgins. AlanMc

Thanks Alan. I guess I came off as a bit clueless. Thanks V. Joe 02:27, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Not at all! Although a popular series at the time they are not that well known anymore. Maybe I will have to put something on Wiki about them.

"The Man who won the Recent War"[edit]

I remember the line in the film (Micheal Collins), but is there a source for it being used in real life?. V. Joe 16:47, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

In the Treaty debates Seamus Robinson says: "Arthur Griffith has called Collins “the man who won the war.”
Later Cathal Brugha says:
"the Chairman of the Delegation...referred to Mr. Michael Collins as the man who won the war.
MR. GRIFFITH: Hear, hear.
MR. FIONAN LYNCH: So he did."
The record of the debates doesn't seem to include the acclamation itself, but given the response of "hear, hear" from Mr. Griffith, we must assume that he did actually say it (of course, both the above-mentioned speakers went on to criticise Collins).
Scolaire 20:09, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation[edit]

Am I the only who was difficulty with the pronunciation key that is often provided for Irish names? In the case of this article, some of the characters are missing, which makes the situation even more difficult. Frankly, looking at the phonetic spelling does not make it any easier for me to pronounce that name. Is there an easier way of doing this, or is there somewhere on Wikipedia I (and others) can look for assistance? In this case, I am particularly interested because I was named Cathal after my paternal Irish great-grandfather, but have always been called Charles (just as he was for most of his life here in the States). I would like to go back to what I regard as my real name---but that is difficult when you do not even know how to pronounce it. Thanks for any assistance. ---Charles 16:42, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, IPA pronuciation seems to be the only one that is allowed in Wikipedia. Personally, I'd rather try to learn Sanskrit!
"th" in Irish is pronounced simply as "h". "ca" is pronounced as "co" in complicated (yes, I did choose that word deliberately). The second "a" is not really pronounced, like the "ə" that is used in the more accessible phonetic systems. So your name would be pronounced as "Coh'll" (or "Cohell" with no emphasis on the "e"), if that makes sense. Similarly, the "gh" in "Brugha" is not pronounced, so that comes out more or less as "Brew-a". Hope that helps. Scolaire 22:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
That is a great deal of help, thank you, Scolaire. Sorry about the delay in my response. ---Charles 21:50, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

This is really late, but if you go here, you can actually hear someone pronounce your name. Though, very close to how Scolaire said it should be pronounced. CestRediculous 09:09, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Templates[edit]

This short article is top-heavy with templates, most of which relate to the positon of Príomh Aire, which he essentially only held for one meeting of Dáil Éireann anyway. I propose to remove the infobox along the right-hand side. Scolaire 20:43, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

It does tend to get in the way somewhat, I concur. One Night In Hackney303 20:44, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Infobox instead? It doesn't seem right not having a photo when one is available. One Night In Hackney303 20:48, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
The question is: what was Cathal Brugha notable for? His heroics in 1916? His leadership of the IRA? His membership of the Dáil cabinet? His death in the battle of O'Connell St.? Obviously, all of the above. But there's no kind of infobox to deal with that kind of a life, so just to put in, say, an officeholder infobox is misleading, in my view. That's my problem with all these templates. They dwarf the article without really presenting a picture of this complex man. I didn't even know there was a "Speaker" template until I saw this. Nobody in Ireland has ever used the word "Speaker" to refer to the Ceann Comhairle. And with all due respect to the officeholders, they're none of them all that notable, so why do we need this template at all?
But to get back on topic, I would prefer to use just just the photograph on its own. Plus if the templates, other than the 1916 one, could be collapsed (I don't know how to do stuff like that) I think it would also be an improvement. Scolaire 07:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Done, see if that's ok. I'll investigate collapsible templates later. One Night In Hackney303 15:30, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I think it looks much better. Don't you? Scolaire 16:07, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Just a bit! Plus if the article is expanded it can always go back in at a later date anyway. One Night In Hackney303 16:14, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I made those template autocollapse so they takeup less space.--padraig3uk 20:54, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Perfect, Pádraig. Thank you! Scolaire 15:58, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

References[edit]

The second reference in this article says: "However, Michael Collin's role in the War of Independence was such that Brugha had little any actual involvement in the running of the war effort". This isa comment, not a reference. So either work it into the article, or delete it. Debresser (talk) 14:31, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Deleted. Scolaire (talk) 11:27, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Photo of Brugha's funeral[edit]

There is a new digital library on the Dublin City Public Libraries website. Aside from being addictive and utterly fascinating, it has a photograph of Cathal Brugha's funeral through Dublin. Here it is 89.101.41.216 (talk) 16:28, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Classification of Death Cause[edit]

As a British reader who studied this article in an unpartisan light, it looks to me unclear from the detailed narrative, and the background of dividing political loyalties in the Irish Civil War, as to what the cause of his death could be classified as. Was there a coroner's inquest held, with those who shot him being questioned, and a returned verdict, or some other form of inquiry into the death? Could the death be classified as:

  • manslaughter?
  • misadventure/error?
  • murder?
  • killed in action (given his military position)?
  • 'justifiable homicide' (the verdict frequently given on those who die shot dead by police or officials seeking to arrest or restrain them)?

Cloptonson (talk) 21:46, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Why do we need to "classify" the cause of death? The cause of death itself is quite clear from the narrative. Is there a "classification" in reliable sources? If so, you need only look them up; if not, what you're talking about is original research. --Scolaire (talk) 16:34, 11 October 2013 (UTC)