Talk:Circumcision

Medical associations

I've again reverted Gary's addition to the "Positions of medical associations" section. The problem with the addition is that it skews coverage too much in favour of the KNMG's position. KNMG's summary reflects their own viewpoint and biases; an equally valid summary, skewed in another direction, might say that "most medical associations agree with parental choice.

In the lead, one might argue that this is acceptable, since we get a concise summary supported by a secondary source. But in the section in question, the sentence was inserted immediately before the recommendations of the individual organisations; there's no obvious need for a summary, and it only serves to skew coverage. Jakew (talk) 16:10, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I have reverted Jake once again becasue I do not see his arguement as valid. A concise summary of medcial positions should be before the recommendation of the individual organizations in the section "Position of medical associations". Our old summary used to be here and in the lead where it belongs, and this one is no different. If you have a source that counters this assertion feel free to provide it. Garycompugeek (talk) 16:56, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I didn't say it was wrong, Gary, so asking me for a source countering the assertion is unreasonable. My point is not that it's wrong, but, rather, that there are several different ways in which one could summarise the various statements, and each of those ways reflects and reinforces a particular point of view. Given that there's no need for a summary here, due to the proximity of the quoted statements, it is best not to skew coverage in the direction of any specific point of view by favouring a particular summary. Jakew (talk) 17:03, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Agree with Jakew, it seems odd to summarize this view right before it is made here, and that "summary" is probably not the best anyways given the various different positions by the different associations. Please get consensus instead of edit warring to add it back. Yobol (talk) 17:11, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

A summary in the beggining of the section is not only normal but what we have had for years in this section until recently. As I have said previously, if you have a better summary, or one that contest the current, I'm all ears. Yobol please read the definition of WP:EW before accusing someone of it. Garycompugeek (talk) 17:59, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't see a need for a summary there, as the various positions are laid out plainly and they are all quite nuanced and different, making a complete but accurate summary somewhat difficult. For the record, I did not accuse anyone of anything. Yobol (talk) 18:02, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

For the record Yobol, you were replying to me since you already agreed with Jake and this statement "Please get consensus instead of edit warring to add it back." implies that I had, or were going to, edit war. Sounds like an accusation to me. There is nothing in KMMG's statement that contradicts any of the medical statments that follow it. As a reader, if I came to the page and was curious of medical consensus regarding routine infant circumcision and skipped the lead and clicked on the "Position of medical associations" I would find the summary quite informative. Garycompugeek (talk) 19:42, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I was making a recommendation, as you had already reverted once. I did not accuse anyone of anything. Secondly, the statement by KNMG does not capture the nuances of the various positions of the different societies, and therefore would not be an appropriate lead in to the section. Yobol (talk) 20:22, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

It's a summary, it's not supposed to (and doesn't claim too) capture all of the nuances of the various medical societies but the gist of their stance. It is helpful to the reader, properly sourced, and at the top of the section it is referring to, therefore it is appropriate. Garycompugeek (talk) 21:03, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on both points. Let's see what other editors think. Yobol (talk) 21:17, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

The KNMG's view on what other medical associations say is simplistic at best, and unduly weights the opinion of one relatively small medical association (the KNMG). Moreover, it gives the impression that the KNMG's view is a summary of the material to follow, which it is not. This is misleading. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:30, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

It is stating one simple fact, "no professional association of physicians currently recommends routine circumcision", and if it good enough for the lead it is certainly good enough for the beginning of the section it is describing. Why do we repeat the HIV information there? Is that WP:UNDUE also? Might that not skew perception and lead readers to believe the following associations are on board with their findings and recommendations? Aside from the WHO (which is not a professional association of physicians) none of the professional association of physicians that follows it recommends routine infant circumcision. Garycompugeek (talk) 16:42, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Gary, nobody is saying that the statement isn't technically true (I've no way of knowing whether it is or not), but it's an extremely narrow perspective that doesn't take into account whether the organisations support or oppose parental discretion, whether they take a stand about the medical benefits of the procedure, what position they take about the information that should be given to parents, etc. It simply categorises associations according to whether they hold an extreme position (that all newborn boys should be circumcised). And because of looking only at that question, it's not a good summary. Consider, say, the American Urological Association, which recommends that circumcision should be presented as an option for health benefits. Jakew (talk) 17:01, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Actually Jake your reasoning is exactly why it is a good summary. As I recently explained to Yobol, a good summary is "not supposed to (and doesn't claim too) capture all of the nuances of the various medical societies but the gist of their stance." and if the reader wants more detail they may read on and get it. Common sense tells us most readers come here to find out more about circumcision to weigh it as an option for their son and advice from medical associations probably weigh heavily on their decisions. The summary is quick and to the point, which is why it's in the lead and why it should lead the section it describes. They all say there are benefits but the risks do not outweigh them enough to recommend routine infant circumcision. Garycompugeek (talk) 19:51, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

I can see that, if one wishes to dissuade parents from electing circumcision, it's a good summary. For an NPOV encyclopaedia, however, it's a poor summary. Jakew (talk) 20:16, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

It's an accurate summary that reflects the current state of all professional associations of physicians. Readers/Parents may draw their own conclusions. First it was UNDUE now its NPOV eh? I suppose you feel all professional associations of physicians are biased because they do not recommend circumcision? Your conclusion is your own POV/OR Jake. It is the best summary we have and if its good enough for the lead it is certainly good enough for the section it is describing. Why do we repeat the HIV information there? Is that WP:UNDUE also? Might that not skew perception and lead readers to believe the following associations are on board with their findings and recommendations? Aside from the WHO (which is not a professional association of physicians) none of the professional association of physicians that follows it recommends routine infant circumcision. Garycompugeek (talk) 21:14, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

The WP:NPOV policy includes WP:UNDUE, Gary (in fact the latter is a section of the former). Jakew (talk) 21:18, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

I am aware of that Jake, just as I am aware that you are copping out and refusing to answer any of the questions I keep repeating. Garycompugeek (talk) 21:26, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘To repeat,

1. The KNMG's view is simplistic at best, and does not accurately reflect the actual positions espoused by medical associations in the rest of the section.
2. Its use unduly weights the opinion of one relatively small medical association, that of the KNMG.
3. Its use as the section "summary" gives the impression that the KNMG's view is a summary of the material to follow, which it is not.

None of these points has been adequately addressed. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:10, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

1. Summaries are supposed to be simplistic, its accurate and does not contradict any professional association of physicians.
2. They are over 53,000 strong and would not be impressed by your assessment of them and all other major medical associations in the Netherlands also signed and endorsed this document. Please bring sources to back up your statements or stop wasting our time with your on OR/POV.

1. Sure it is... What material do you claim it's contradicting? Garycompugeek (talk) 14:02, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

The quoted section of KNMG is not a 'view', it is a verifiable statement about the policies of medical organizations. It is not a medical opinion and it is consistent with all of our other sources making it broadly accepted. Leaving it in does not violate WP:UNDUE. Though, the summary of this section should indicate where medical associations recommend circumcision and their position when culture circumcision is performed. This information would compliment it appropriately.Gsonnenf (talk) 10:23, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

It's only verifiable in the sense that we can verify that the KNMG expressed this opinion, but that's true of any sourced statement. It's fundamentally a viewpoint, and we've no way to verify its veracity. What we do know is that it's a poor summary, and it clearly gives undue weight to the KNMG by giving extra emphasis to what they view as important about the other associations' policies. Jakew (talk) 10:38, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

It is verifiable because all other sources containing the positions of medical associations affirm it. The summary should discuss the positions of medical associations. As editors, we have the latitude to decide what is important to include. The medical associations position about routine circumcision, which has a historical context for being extremely common, is given proper weight.Gsonnenf (talk) 10:51, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm afraid you're incorrect. To verify the statement that "no X includes the statement Y", it is first necessary to obtain every X, since the statement is wrong if only a single X includes the statement Y. In this particular case, that means that we'd have to identify the positions of every single professional association of physicians in the world. Most of those would of course be in languages other than English, which doesn't make that task any easier. So as a practical matter, it is essentially impossible to say with any certainty that no such association has made such a statement. All we can say is that the KNMG have asserted the view.

You're also wrong in your assertion that routine circumcision was historically common. In fact, routine circumcision (literally, circumcision of all newborn boys, see footnote 2 here) has never occurred in any country. (It's possible that it may happen in Papua New Guinea, per their recently announced policies, though it hasn't yet.) Elective circumcision is and has been common in many countries, but that's another matter. Jakew (talk) 11:08, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Do you have some knowledge that we are not privy to? If you do, please share it. If there is some peer-reviewed secondary source which

proves that the KNMG did not correctly represent the viewpoint of every single professional association of physicians in the world, I would be interested. Otherwise, it is unsubstantiated guesswork, an unproven assertion. Tftobin (talk) 02:12, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

I didn't say that the KNMG were incorrect, Tom, so it's unreasonable to ask me to supply proof for such an assertion. Jakew (talk) 10:43, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

What you said was "it is essentially impossible to say with any certainty that no such association has made such a statement." This asserts that the KNMG's statement is essentially impossible to be true. What I am saying is that it is essentially impossible for someone who does not have intimate knowledge of the KNMG process to be certain whether or not their process is esentially impossible. As such, it's guesswork. Tftobin (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:28, 24 February 2012 (UTC).

Actually, that's an interesting source, providing another summary:

Most medical associations, such as the American Academy of Pediatrics,12 the British Medical Association,13 the Canadian Pediatrics Society,14 and the Royal Australasian College of Physicians,15 among others, maintain that although there are potential medical benefits associated with the procedure, on balance these benefits do not overwhelmingly support a policy of universal recommendation. [...] Most medical associations maintain that it is in fact justifiable—no medical body has advocated a policy that calls for the prohibition of circumcision.

Jakew (talk) 11:14, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Because there are finite recognized professional medical associations (and fairly small) I am correct that it is verifiable (unlike something like medical benefit, which is too broad and subjective to verify). Because this can be disproved by contradiction, the burden on opposition evidence is extraordinarily low. Your argument that it shouldn't be included because you don't have time to verify it violates WP:OWNER.

Your article on the definition of "routine" isn't consistent with typical medical association definition who apply it to opt-out procedures (such as recommending routine HPV vaccination for boys). Please choose a definition from medical associations. Also, certain cultures have historically practiced routine circumcision, the medical view on routine circumcision is important. This summary should discuss medical association view of elective circumcision.

Your argument that "All we can say is that the KNMG have asserted the view." is not valid. We typically summarize something as true when it is supported and confirmed by secondary sources, and there is no evidence against it. If we didn't take this view point, we would have to do in text source of every claim in this article.

And for gods sake Jakew. This is a NPOV discussion right here that you began! Quit removing the NPOV tag! Gsonnenf (talk) 12:13, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Firstly, I have not argued that "it shouldn't be included because [I] don't have time to verify it", and I do not appreciate having my views misrepresented. Please don't do that again. I have simply pointed out that your assertion that it is correct is unproven. The reasons why it should not be included have already been provided above.

Secondly, the definition of routine circumcision is as stated above. It is consistent with the AAP's use of language; for example compare their information for parents: "Scientific studies show some medical benefits of circumcision. How­ever, these benefits are not sufficient for the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) to recommend that all infant boys be circumcised." with their formal policy: "Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision."

Finally, as has been explained to you previously, it is fairly typical for there to be at least one discussion in which the application of NPOV has been discussed. That is perfectly normal, and does not justify a tag. Please stop this disruptive tagging without adequate explanation. Jakew (talk) 13:03, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Why do we repeat the HIV information there? Is that WP:UNDUE also? Might that not skew perception and lead readers to believe the following associations are on board with their findings and recommendations? Aside from the WHO (which is not a professional association of physicians) none of the professional association of physicians that follows it recommends routine infant circumcision. Garycompugeek (talk) 14:04, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I have removed the HIV information from the beggining of this section on the basis of redundancy and the fact that they WHO does not represent the medical associations that follow it. Garycompugeek (talk) 14:11, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I have to say, I'd have preferred to organise this material differently, including WHO under an "International" subsection and the CDC in the "US" subsection. However, they are unquestionably positions of medical associations, so removing them altogether seems difficult to justify. Jakew (talk) 14:15, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

That's a pretty bold statement considering you have no problem justifying the removal of the summary policy statement that is good enough for the lead but not the beginning of the section that it is describing. Garycompugeek (talk) 15:02, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

If I had removed the KNMG statement in its entirety, Gary, you might have a point. However, the KNMG are still listed in the "Positions of medical associations" section. The WHO and CDC are not.

As for the lead, I originally said that "one might argue that this [KNMG's summary] is acceptable". There are some serious problems with this summary, and having thought about it further I'm not sure whether the KNMG's statement is adequate. Jakew (talk) 15:20, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes well that makes little sense considering they are two separate statements with separate sources. As far as KNMG's medical summary I'm sure you like it as much as the old AMA summary it replaced that took months of debate - ad nauseam - to include in the article as the best medical summary availible. If you have a better medical summary please present it. Garycompugeek (talk) 16:02, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't understand what you mean by the first sentence of your response. Regarding the summary, I actually quoted a more balanced summary above, in this edit. Jakew (talk) 16:06, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes I saw that earlier but you did not provide a ref for me to properly evaluate and its paints circumcision in the best light possible so I'm not sure how well balanced it is. If appropriate perhaps we can work the two together to alleviate NPOV concerns but of course it would have to gain consensus with our fellow editors. Garycompugeek (talk) 16:41, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

The ref was provided in the post immediately before, but to save you searching it's here. I'm not sure that I would agree with your claim that it paints circumcision in the best possible light; it's fairly easy to imagine a more positive summary (such as, "By and large, the statements of most of these professional bodies tend to recommend that medical practitioners fully inform parents of the benefits and minor, rare risks of having their male children circumcised."). But it seems self-evident that by addressing the questions of both routine and elective circumcision, it's more balanced than a summary that addresses only one of those dimensions. Jakew (talk) 16:50, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

The ref you supplied comes from an article written by A M Viens, Department of Philosophy, St Anne’s College, Oxford University, Oxford, UK with by her own admission sets out to prove "I shall argue that in order for policy concerning the prohibition of circumcision to be acceptable it would have to be demonstrated that such a policy could be justified to those individuals with reasonable yet conflicting doctrines and whom this policy would concern." Hardly NPOV and certainly not on the scale of the KNMG. How can we compare a philosopher with a distinguished medical body for our professional medical associations summary? Garycompugeek (talk) 17:34, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

(ec) Gary, very few sources adhere to NPOV; they all express POVs (including the KNMG). But I find it rather interesting that in your attempt to demonstrate non-neutrality you've quoted a part of Viens' paper that I hadn't proposed to include — suggesting that any non-NPOV quality is not a property of the summary itself. As for the fact that one source is a medical association, I fail to see why that matters. When acting as a secondary source (ie., summarising studies of circumcision) a medical association is a strong source because medical associations are presumed to be reliable about medical topics. But when acting as a tertiary source with respect to circumcision (ie., summarising policy statements) there's no such presumption: there's no particular reason why a medical association should be better equipped to summarise policy statements of other associations than a philosopher. Any university-educated individual should be more than capable of reading them, after all. Perhaps we ought to look at the more pressing question of which of the sentences in question best summarises the material? Jakew (talk) 18:39, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Reiterating:

1. The KNMG's view is simplistic at best, and does not accurately reflect the actual positions espoused by medical associations in the rest of the section. Summaries are not supposed to be "simplistic", they are supposed to be brief and accurate.
2. Its use unduly weights the opinion of one relatively small medical association, that of the KNMG. 54,000 members is not a large number, and many medical associations have hundreds of thousands of members. For example, the British Medical Association has 141,000 members, the American Medical Association has 217,000 members, the Canadian Medical Association has 70,000 members, the Indian Medical Association has 1,780,000 members etc. In addition, there are hundreds (if not thousands) of medical associations throughout the world.
3. Its use as the section "summary" gives the impression that the KNMG's view is a summary of the material to follow, which it is not. The material that follows is an independent listing of medical association positions - there are no guarantees that the KNMG examined the identical list of associations, or the identical position statements from them.

None of these points has been adequately addressed. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:12, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I have reverted Jake's attempt to rewrite our medical summary but I am open to compromise Jake. As I see it only goverments can prohibit circumcision. If you were to find a good source that states that we could modify the statement to something like,

"According to the Royal Dutch Medical Association (2010), no professional association of physicians currently recommends routine circumcision, however it has also been noted that no governments prohibits the practice. [15] Some bodies have discussed under what circumstances circumcision is ethical." Garycompugeek (talk) 14:24, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I find Jakew's version much more in line with NPOV, as the current one weights the findings of one small medical society over others, and does not do as good a job summarizing the positions of the various societies, so I would support a change back to that version. Yobol (talk) 14:58, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Yobol. Gary, medical associations can't prohibit circumcision, but neither can they mandate it. They could, however, recommend that it is prohibited or universal. Jakew (talk) 15:50, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

As do I. -- Avi (talk) 15:54, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

As do I. Per the issues raised above, use of the KNMG's view is highly problematic. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:59, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I must say I am a bit perplexed at the reasoning going on here. KNMG is belittled because they are a small medical association compared to some others yet you wish to replace their medical summary with one from one person who is not even in the medical field. I have replaced the KNMG summary that Jake removed, it is still the best, most accurate, and current medical summary that we have. Garycompugeek (talk) 15:29, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Actually, not being a medical association is arguably an advantage when it comes to summarising their views. Let me explain why that is by analogy. Would one wish to use one particular political party's manifesto to summarise the views of all political parties? Or would one prefer to use an independent publication? Jakew (talk) 16:11, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Jakew, Is there a policy that supports your position against using medical associations? Chevara (talk) 17:06, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't have a "position against using medical associations", Chevara. In many contexts they're excellent sources. Jakew (talk) 17:31, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Sorry Jake but I simply cannot attribute the same weight of one scholar to that of an entire medical organization. Jayjg says this organization is too small to represent our medical summary then jumps right on board with your recommendation from a single non medical individual which you typically rage against saying "one person carries little weight or fridge view etc..". I have also placed KNMG summary back as the best on medical summary we currently have available. It goes against custom to remove material already in the article just because it is being discussed on the talk page. If we did that most of the lead would be gone while we debate HIV, medical summary and controversies. Garycompugeek (talk) 18:46, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Gary, you still haven't addressed the points I've raised above. There are three of them; unless and until you explicitly do so, there is no justification at all for inserting the KNMG material. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:09, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Jayjg's points have already been sufficiently address. JakeW's political analogy is incorrect because the researcher in question is likely a more specifically interested party than the actual society. KNME researched the position of medical societies and came to their conclusion from aggregation of the position of major medical societies. The findings of a medical society should not be replaced by a much smaller source, this violate WP:UNDUE.Gsonnenf (talk) 12:06, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Mere contradiction is not a constructive form of debate, Gsonnenf. If you feel that Jayjg's point have been adequately addressed, then at least cite diffs as examples. You might also explain why "the researcher in question is likely a more specifically interested party"; merely asserting it isn't very convincing. In any case, both Viens and the KNMG based their statements on aggregation of the positions of these societies, and both comment on whether the societies recommend universal circumcision (they also essentially offer the same summary). Viens, however, also comments on whether they recommend prohibition of circumcision. This means that Viens can be used for a more informative summary without contradicting the KNMG's; yours is therefore a misapplication of WP:UNDUE. Jakew (talk) 12:50, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘I think it's probably time for an RfC to get outside input to settle this, as further discussion seems unlikely to be fruitful at this point. Yobol (talk) 20:28, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

RfC: how should the lead summarise positions of medical associations?

There is a dispute regarding how best to summarise the position statements of medical associations in the lead (fuller discussion is at circumcision#Positions of medical associations). The two options considered so far include the following:

1. According to the Royal Dutch Medical Association (2010), no professional association of physicians currently recommends routine circumcision.
2. Most medical associations recommend neither universal circumcision nor a prohibition against the practice.

Jakew (talk) 20:55, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

• Support #2. #1 places too much emphasis on the opinion of one medical society, and WP:UNDUEly ignores that while routine circumcisions are not recommended, neither is circumcision routinely recommended against either. Of the two options, #2 is clearly a better summary of what is in the article and the positions of the various medical societies, which is the point of the WP:LEAD. Yobol (talk) 21:05, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

• Support #1 or use both. I think the KNMG source should be in the lede for several reasons; (a) Both medical organizations and general society can have polarizing views on this issue, with some countries implementing routine infant circumcisions from birth, and some trying to prohibit it. Considering KNMG represents one opinionated side of the spectrum, i think they're lede-worthy material. (b) KNMG is a reliable source and contemporary. (c) per wp:lead we should cover the most important points. If a major medical organization has taken a strong alternative stance as KNMG has, that makes it an important point, hence worthy of lede inclusion. (d) Yobols point above about "ignoring other arguments" is redundant because the third paragraph already makes that clear. (e) The second option is essentially stating the obvious, because its repeating something already covered in the third paragraph. I do not recommend this because it implies wikipedia readers are stupid.

In short, because the 3rd paragraph cites a source recommending circumcision, it would be a violation of WP:NPOV to not use a reference which has the opposite view (if one exists). Pass a Method talk 21:19, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

• Support #1. I want #1, because it is more realistic. I don't find #1 simplistic at all. It is clear, and unambiguous. It is also honest about the position of medical societies. Tftobin (talk) 00:02, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

• Support #1 or both. This is the only part of the lead that explicitly discusses dissenting professional opinion to circumcision. If we are to devote 23% of the lead to circumcision as HIV-preventative (without acknowledging dissenting opinion), and almost 10% of it to a comprehensive list of conditions circumcision is used for (again, without acknowledging dissenting opinion), is stands to reason that integrating this sentence is the least we can do for the lead's NPOV. There is a stark contrast in the rhetoric between this sentence and the one being proposed; changing this sentence to choice #2 significantly softens the sentence. What is wrong with letting our readers know that no single medical association on Earth recommends routine circumcision? It seems like there is a lot of merit to integrating this fact into the lead, especially after observing that 40% of the lead is dedicated to the benefits of circumcision. Therewillbefact (talk) 00:00, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

• Support #2. The KNMG's view is simplistic at best, and does not accurately reflect the actual positions espoused by medical associations in the rest of the section. Its use unduly weights the opinion of one relatively small medical association with 54,000 members (many medical associations have significantly more members e.g. the British Medical Association has 141,000 members, the American Medical Association has 217,000 members, the Canadian Medical Association has 70,000 members, the Indian Medical Association has 1,780,000 members etc). In addition, there are hundreds (if not thousands) of medical associations throughout the world. Also its use as the section "summary" gives the impression that the KNMG's view is a summary of the material to follow, which it is not. The material that follows is an independent listing of medical association positions - there are no guarantees that the KNMG examined the identical list of associations, or the identical position statements from them. Source 2 actually accurately summarizes the positions of medical associations. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:02, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

• Support #2. More accurate and gives less weight to one out of many associations. This is the section on medical associations, let each one speak for themselves instead of giving one particular one undue weight. -- Avi (talk) 03:13, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

• Support #2. Per WP:LEAD, the lead is an introduction and a summary of the most important topics: "The lead serves as an introduction to the article and a summary of its most important aspects." #2 is a general summary of the issue and satisfies this element of the Wiki policy. WP:LEAD also specifies that items should appear in the lead according to their importance to the topic: "The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources..." The position by the Royal Dutch Medical Assn is covered in the summary provided by the #2 statement. The position of the RDMAssn is not a major aspect of the article that needs to be mentioned in the lead. It is just one of several positions but is given undue weight by its mention in the lead and is inconsistent with WP: UNDUE.Coaster92 (talk) 03:51, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

• Support #2. As can be seen from the body of the article, most cited associations take a middle-ground position, neither recommending universal circumcision nor prohibition, leaving the decision to parents. #1 is a poor summary in this respect, thus failing WP:LEAD, because it fails to make this clear. By considering only whether they take one extreme position (recommending routine, ie., universal circumcision), it implies that their positions are more negative than they are. #2 is a much more balanced and informative summary. I also have concerns about using one policy statement to summarise others, especially when that policy statement is notable for taking the most extreme anti-circumcision position to date. It would be questionable at best to use a political party's manifesto to summarise the views of other political parties, since it would be likely that they would present those views in the light most favourable to their own. The situation here is comparable: their statement is the most favourable to their view. That doesn't mean that it's best suited to NPOV coverage; quite the opposite, in fact. Jakew (talk) 10:15, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Regarding Avi's last edit to the lead here, I don't understand how we can already say we've reached a consensus and that the debate is over. If input by Jayjg, Jakew, Avi, and Yobol constitutes as a consensus every time input is solicited in this talk page, I'm genuinely worried for the circumcision entry. Jakew, Avi, and Jayjg all share an extensive history of editing in favor of highlighting the benefits of circumcision while softening the narrative of dissenting opinion towards the procedure. Yobol has also exhibited a similar editing preference with these users, although to a lesser extent with respect to editing volume. Please also note that edit wars are looked down upon on Wikipedia, please see Wikipedia:Edit_warring for more.

For the record, I didn't say we had reached a consensus. However, the change to the lede of the association paragraph is to add the KNMG position, and there is no consensus as of now to have that added (to wit, see this RfC). The stable version of the article did not have that sentence, and should be the one kept until consensus to override can be demonstrated. -- Avi (talk) 14:18, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

A very key component of the lead was omitted - mention that there is not one single health organization anywhere that recommends routine circumcision. What exactly is wrong with integrating this fact, when 40% of the lead is dedicated to the benefits of circumcision? The viewpoint is also not one specific to the RDMA, as you have all made it out to be. Try this 2011 text, which explicitly states "no medical association in the world recommends [circumcision]". Perhaps we could also try this text, which states "there is no medical justification for routine circumcision" and that "it should be performed only for established medical reasons and should not be universally recommended", to give credence to the fact that there is real opposition to routine circumcision. I am having trouble reconciling why there is so much resistance among these editors when it comes to integrating the fact that no medical association recommends routine circumcision in the lead.

Additionally, we are not giving readers an accurate picture of reality with this current revision, which states "most medical associations recommend neither universal circumcision nor a prohibition against the practice". As it is now, this recent edit would actually leave one with the impression that there actually may actually be a medical association somewhere in the world that actually does recommend circumcision - I think it goes without saying that we would know by now if one existed. We are not putting reality into perspective for readers of the lead. Aside from that, this edit further lessens the already-dismal amount of coverage in the lead regarding controversy.

Again, I am not opposed to sentence #2 accommodating #1, or vise-versa... This would help us convey a more accurate description of reality for our readers. I even propose that we condense the two to: While there is currently no association of physicians that recommend routine circumcision[15], most medical associations recommend neither universal circumcision nor a prohibition against the practice.[16][17]. Therewillbefact (talk) 10:55, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

We do in fact state that most organisations don't recommend routine circumcision: "Most medical associations recommend neither universal circumcision [...]". But, as noted, we also acknowledge that they don't recommend prohibition either, so we provide additional information to the reader. As for the statement that no organisation recommends universal circumcision, we don't know that that's true. It would be a serious error to extrapolate from associations in English-speaking developed countries to the entire world. Many African countries have instituted large-scale circumcision programmes, and Papua New Guinea have recently announced a mandatory circumcision policy for all males. It doesn't seem much of a stretch to suppose that this is with the support of their medical associations, and lending support to that is a trilingual systematic review, "With few exceptions, donors, academia, professional medical associations and HIV advocacy groups supported male circumcision for the prevention of HIV infection."[1] Whether those associations go as far as to recommend universal circumcision is unknown, but it doesn't seem impossible. Please note that I'm not saying that the KNMG are wrong, but it seems entirely plausible that one of the thousands of medical organisations out there does recommend universal circumcision. Jakew (talk) 11:14, 12 February 2012 (UTC):

Regarding this sentence, "With few exceptions, donors, academia, professional medical associations and HIV advocacy groups supported male circumcision for the prevention of HIV infection.", someone checked with each of these groups, and the vast majority of them came back supporting circumcision for HIV prevention? Wouldn't this logically have the same problem brought up in critiques in the KNMG statement? There's no evidence of the contact, or documenting who approved, or disapproved. Tftobin (talk) 15:17, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

I do not have "an extensive history of editing in favor of highlighting the benefits of circumcision while softening the narrative of dissenting opinion towards the procedure" - do not make this false claim again. In fact, don't comment about me at all on this talk page; restrict your comments to discussions of article content. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:19, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Pot, meet kettle. Jayjy, you have drawn attention to my own contribution history in the past as an editor - it would be helpful if you were consistent with your own recommendations.

Jakew, to argue that there might be a professional association of physicians somewhere out there is not a good enough reason not to include it in the lead. You've cited mandatory circumcision programs primarily in high-risk areas, the topic in question is universal circumcision. Please keep this in mind. Additionally, the statement is found in sources other than the RDMA, as I've already mentioned. This edit to sentence #2 also cut discussion of controversy in the lead in half. Therewillbefact (talk) 20:16, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Regarding your first point, I agree: the fact that the KNMG might be wrong is not itself a reason to exclude it (there are, of course, other reasons to exclude it, such as those outlined above). I'm afraid I don't understand your second point: surely mandatory circumcision programmes imply universal circumcision in the context of the relevant geographical area? Finally, the edit is unrelated to controversy, which is discussed in the following paragraph. Jakew (talk) 20:27, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

I haven't misrepresented your editing history. You have misrepresented mine. Don't do it again. In fact, don't comment about me at all on this talk page; restrict your comments to discussions of article content. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:19, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Jayjg, it seems unusually dualistic that you ask someone to restrict their comments to discussions of article content, when you posted excerpts of my replies from outside wikipedia to someone who happens to be a wikipedia editor in Talk:Circumcision. Does that seem as ironic to you, as it does to me? Irony is the kindest word I can think of Tftobin (talk) 02:57, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

• Support both in the lead as they both provide interesting details. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:00, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
• Support 1, and maybe #2 (rephrase) The KNMG view seems non-controversial, as I've seen no opposing statement. It appears to accurately reflect the current practice as a review of major medical associations reveals. For these reasons I believe it is the establishment view and remove it would be wp:undue. A following statement should be made that circumcision is usually allowed for cultural, personal reasons, etc. #2 or something could meet this criteria.Gsonnenf (talk) 04:25, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
• KNMG's medical summary is accurate and up to date (2010). It illustrates the world prevalent medical opinion regarding circumcision. Medical associations do not have the power to prohibit only governments can do that. Medical associations either recommend or do not recommend, end of story. I completely disagree with replacing KNMG with one persons veiwpoint or even using it as a reliable source in this context. Garycompugeek (talk) 19:23, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
  • When you say "either recommend or do not recommend", do you mean recommend universal circumcision, or recommend prohibition? Jakew (talk) 19:55, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
• Support 1 Is there any argument as to why the KNMG wouldn't be WP:RS for the statement that no medical association currently recommends the practice? If no, then I don't see why this would need in-text attribution and we could simply say that currently no medical association recommends routine circumcision. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 20:46, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

• Support 2. The source supporting the second statement is from a peer-reviewed publication (and more closely meets WP:MEDRS). It summarises the position in a more NPOV fashion than the KNMG statement. JFW | T@lk 20:15, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
• Support NEITHER. The lede is too big by far as it stands. Circumcise the lede. Its (current at the time of my writing this) closing para is adequate coverage for the point in question. Balanced discussion about who supports what and why (both sides) could quite reasonably be covered in the appropriate section(s) of the body of the article. Quite a lot of other current lede content should be similarly exported to the body and pared down in or removed from the lede. Within reason and in appropriate context and form there is nothing wrong with balanced representations of rival contentions in the body, but not as a rule in the lede, which should do no more than note the existence of contention, leaving details for later. JonRichfield (talk) 20:35, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Article ledes for lengthy articles like this are almost always four paragraphs. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:26, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Jayjg's remark is correct as an observation, but that is no recommendation. The only rational criterion for the structure of a lede is its helpfulness to a user who wants to know what the article is about, hardly more deeply than at dictionary level, plus what sort of subject matter to expect in the body of the article.

If it is necessary in the case of a non-contentious matter, such as the benefit of ascorbate for preventing scurvy, the lede might mention that without discussion, but in a contentious or contingent matter, such as circumcision, if one mentions it at all, one should limit the mention to the fact of the contention without going into the merits and demerits of the various divergent parties and their views. Such matters belong in the body. A lede that contains four paragraphs of material or discussion that must go up front for good reason, should be restructured into one or two lucid, compact sentences, and the residue should go into an introductory section with its own proper introductory heading. And if material is repeated elsewhere in the article in its own section, it should be no more than mentioned in the introductory section either. That is not what ledes or indeed introductions are for, either in WP, or in general good article design. More than half the long articles should have their ledes and introductions redesigned as things stand, IMO, and I speak as someone who is just a little obsessional about putting as much info as possible into an article.JonRichfield (talk) 07:33, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

• Support #1 Doctors recommending that doctors should never "cut in healthy meat". Seems uncontroversial to me. #2 is badly phrased. -- Honorsteem (talk) 10:04, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
• Support #1. Version 2 is ambiguous and badly worded (is it circumcision or routine circumcision which is not prohibited?). --BozMo talk 19:28, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
  • I'm afraid your question doesn't make much sense. Since routine circumcision (which literally means circumcision of all males) cannot realistically occur without a legal mandate anyway, it's not meaningful to prohibit it. I'm guessing you may mean "elective" circumcision, and I guess there's some room for clarification. Jakew (talk) 20:55, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

• Support #1 Honorsteem nailed it with "never cut in healthy meat." Robert B19 (talk) 01:59, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

• Support #2. better wording and more consistent with our NPOV and RS policies, as outlined above by many editors.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 22:32, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
• Support #2...I have been looking into this myself and the overall consensus is that medical associations neither approve nor disapprove of the practice, stating it is a matter of parental preference mostly...however, it appears that the benefits of having the procedure are slightly better than to not have it...though that is not part of the wording of either option above. Therefore, the use of one medical association as the sole opinion on this matter (and one based in Europe, where this procedure is far less commonly done than in some other regions), seems to be less than authoritative.--MONGO 01:26, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
• Use all sources. I just saw this dispute under a helpme template, and I can't say who's right - fortunately, I shouldn't have to. Every one of the reputable academic sources in this revert war should definitely be in the article. Once you give up the power to throw out sources that don't say what you want, the prospects for dispute are much reduced! On what's left, I'm inclined to prefer a statement "The Royal Dutch society said" over a statement that "Most medical associations..." because I'm skeptical anyone has the time or inclination to seriously ask what every single medical association great and small thinks about anything. Wnt (talk) 11:23, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
• Support #2, there is nothing that demonstrates that the Royal Dutch Medical Association's view is more valuable than any other one; gives a more balanced no one really has any opinion either way, it seems as is reflected in the second formulation over the first. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 21:46, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

we're going in circles. there was overwhelming support for the Dutch Medical statement. Robert B19 (talk) 23:40, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Possible compromise?

So far, at least, there's an interesting division of opinion in the above RfC, with similar levels of support for #1 and #2. There seems to be some support for including more than one summary, and I've been thinking about how to do so in a concise manner. I'm just whether there's any support for something like the following:

• Summaries of the views of professional associations of physicians have included that none currently recommend routine circumcision, that most recommend neither universal circumcision nor a prohibition against the practice, and that most support it for HIV prevention.

Any thoughts? Jakew (talk) 20:33, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm puzzled. Why are you now suggesting we integrate HIV prevention here? It does not dovetail at all with the sentences we are deciding between. Therewillbefact (talk) 00:38, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

"that most recommend neither universal circumcision nor a prohibition against the practice" is awkward, tortured syntax. Bloggurzz (talk) 03:21, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I quoted the relevant sentence from that source above ("With few exceptions, [...] professional medical associations [...] supported male circumcision for the prevention of HIV infection"). I think it's no less useful a summary of the views of such associations as either of the others. And if we're to take a step back and say that there are several different summaries, it makes sense to include a broad selection. That is to say, I couldn't think of a good reason to exclude it. Jakew (talk) 09:48, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Aside the last phrase it is ok but I think there is quite a lot of missing context in the HIV phrase. I mean, no one supports routine circumcision worldwide for HIV prevention (which is how the comment is likely to be read). There are specific circumstances in which "most believe it has a role in HIV prevention". --BozMo talk 12:17, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Hmm. If we changed the order of presentation, we could minimise the chances of the HIV phrase being misinterpreted as being about routine circumcision: "Summaries of the views of professional associations of physicians have included that most support it for HIV prevention,[4] that most recommend neither universal circumcision nor a prohibition against the practice,[3] and that none currently recommend routine circumcision.[1]" Jakew (talk) 12:27, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

jakew, you might want to review an elementary book on style and composition. You're trying to stuff too much into one sentence. 189.115.193.157 (talk) 15:33, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

the irony is "too" much.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 15:37, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

It's an awkward, hard-to-decipher sentence, Jakew. It would give a reader the impression that state most professional associations of physicians support circumcision because of its HIV prevention qualities... Therewillbefact (talk) 19:01, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

The source states that most professional medical associations "supported male circumcision for the prevention of HIV infection"; I fail to see why there is any problem with doing the same... Jakew (talk) 19:05, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Maybe because not a single professional medical association recommends circumcision to prevent HIV. Garycompugeek (talk) 19:44, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps, perhaps not. It's a moot point anyway, since the statement is that they support it, rather than recommend it. Jakew (talk) 19:50, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

6 people supported 1 and 2 people suport both, which totals to 8. This means #1 should be in the lede somehow, right?. Pass a Method talk 10:05, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

It seems likely that we'll need to negotiate a compromise of some sort. Jakew (talk) 10:47, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

old compromises

How about we add the two together like this; "According to the Royal Dutch Medical Association (2010), no professional association of physicians currently recommends routine circumcision, but most medical associations recommend neither universal circumcision nor a prohibition against the practice." Pass a Method talk 13:05, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

That would read as though the KNMG were making both statements, which they don't (and if they did, it would be redundant, since routine and universal circumcision have the same meaning). Jakew (talk) 13:20, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I think 4 people supported using both, so how about we use both in seperate sentences? similar to above but in two setences? Pass a Method talk 14:29, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I think we need to give some indication of why we're including summaries that at least partly overlap. Otherwise it reads oddly due to the redundancy. The real reason for including more than one summary is that different authors have summarised these policies differently (perhaps reflecting their own different viewpoints). That's why I proposed "summaries of the views ... have included" wording: to make explicit the fact that we're including multiple summaries. Jakew (talk) 16:25, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

How about this wording?

"Views from medical associations vary from claiming no professional association of physicians currently recommends routine circumcision, or that most recommend neither universal circumcision nor a prohibition against the practice." Pass a Method talk 16:50, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

It's poorly worded. Firstly, it's not that the views from medical associations vary per se; it's that summaries of such views vary. Also, the usual sentence structure ("vary from ... or") is unconventional. More usual would be "vary from ... to ...", but that raises the question of whether these are actually the extremes. That's why I chose the "have included" format: it doesn't imply that these represent the extremes. Jakew (talk) 17:11, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Fourth try.

"Views from medical associations include claims that no professional association of physicians currently recommends routine circumcision, and that most recommend neither universal circumcision nor a prohibition against the practice."

Pass a Method talk 18:05, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Please see WP:CLAIM. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:22, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Also, the same problem as above, these are summaries of views of medical associations, not views themselves. Jakew (talk) 18:23, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Compromise for lede

What's your opinion of this inclusion?

"Summaries of views from medical associations have included that no professional association of physicians currently recommends routine circumcision, and that most recommend neither universal circumcision nor a prohibition against the practice."

Pass a Method talk 18:52, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Much better, but why exclude "and that most support it for HIV prevention" (from my initial compromise proposal above)? Jakew (talk) 18:54, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I think the lede speaks about HIV too much as it is as othershave already implied. Pass a Method talk 19:40, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

That's not a valid argument. The question is what summaries of the views of medical associations have been published. To argue that some summaries are unacceptable because you don't think the content is very important is ludicrous. It's not supposed to be your summary; it's theirs. Jakew (talk) 19:50, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I hope we're not going to go back to counting the number of words in the lede and calculating percentages again. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:08, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The wording of the last RFC did not include any mention of HIV, therefore it is disrespectful to the 15 editors above, none of whom supported any HIV mention. If you want to mention HIV, discuss that in a subsequent discussion. Not this one. Pass a Method talk 20:15, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The RFC clearly stated: "The two options considered so far include the following" (emph added). Hence it did not exclude discussion of alternatives. Jakew (talk) 20:19, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Okay, but why do you think its important to be so repetitive on HIV? The lede already mentions something very similar twice: (a) "circumcision reduces the risk of HIV", (b) "The WHO currently recommends circumcision for prevention of HIV" Pass a Method talk 21:27, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it is repetitive. The statement which you've labelled (a) is about the association between circumcision and HIV, not what any organisation thinks about it. Statement (b) is about what a single medical organisation (albeit a highly influential one) recommends. Neither statement provides information about how medical associations as a whole have responded. Jakew (talk) 21:37, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

You're missing the point. The lead should not give information on every single medical finding about circumcision. More detailed descriptions go to the subsections. For this reason things such as urinary fistulas, chordee, cysts, lymphedema, ulceration of the glans, hypospadias, epispadias etc. are not in the lede - so a not to clog it.

Why would we need to add "most support it for HIV prevention", when it sounds very similar to two phrases in the same paragraph? Your suggestion is not only repetitive, but it is extremely repetitive. In fact, it is so repetitive i can't believe you proposed it. Pass a Method talk 21:27, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

As I explained, I don't think it is repetitive, and "sounding similar" does not imply that it has a similar meaning. Frankly, I think that "most recommend neither universal circumcision nor a prohibition against the practice" is a perfectly adequate summary of the views of medical associations. However, if it's so important to include the KNMG's summary as well, then you're introducing a certain amount of redundancy. It's difficult to justify including one in spite of redundancy, but excluding another because it "sounds similar" to something else. Jakew (talk) 21:56, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

We're getting sort of off-topic now. Instead of debating the HIV section now, why not instead first add it without the HIV bit, and then later try seek consensus for the HIV part? Deal? Pass a Method talk 22:18, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘I don't understand why we'd leave out one summary of medical association views while leaving in two others - there does not appear to be any specific policy or guideline-based rationale that I can discern. On the contrary, it would seem to violate WP:NPOV to do so. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:12, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

That sentence is about whether Circumcision is recommended, not what it is recommended for. HIV is discussed adding it again violates WP:UNDUE.Gsonnenf (talk) 04:03, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Your response does not address the point I have raised. Please re-word or re-state it in a way that directly addresses the point regarding leaving out one specific summary out of three, and therefore violating WP:NPOV. Jayjg ^(talk) 05:04, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Not only have you failed to address Jayjg's point, but you're also incorrect. It's about how others have summarised the views of medical associations. I'm sorry that you find this particular summary lacking; but I assure you that few people will be satisfied with every summary. That, after all, is why we're trying to find a compromise. Jakew (talk) 09:30, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

I would still like to see an explicit mention of the Royal Dutch Medical Association with their statement. I think it would be fair to our readers to provide them with the specific organization that holds this point of view. Therewillbefact (talk) 17:51, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

I'd prefer to treat sources equally with respect to identifying the origin or not, but as a compromise I suppose I'd be willing to name the KNMG:

• Summaries of the views of medical organisations have included: that most support it for HIV prevention, that most recommend neither universal circumcision nor a prohibition against the practice, and (from the Royal Dutch Medical Association) that none currently recommend routine circumcision.

Jakew (talk) 18:12, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

I really value your willingness to compromise here Jakew, but I'd like to draw attention to the text you interpreted to mean "that most [medical associations] support [circumcision] for HIV prevention". You'll notice that the statement pertains to HIV campaigns in high-risk areas (the title of the text is, after all, Print media reporting of male circumcision for preventing HIV infection in sub-Saharan Africa). This is further evidenced by the fact that the text that precedes and follows the statement very specifically only applies to the implementation of circumcision in high-risk areas. Please give it a read. Furthermore, this claim by the WHO is even substantiated by examples that only pertain to efforts being made in high-risk areas. The text is followed by "major donors like the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation and the United States President’s Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief were willing to fund male circumcision programmes". Notice how the WHO did not make the distinction "the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation as well as the PEPFAR were willing to fund male circumcision programmes in high-risk areas", even though these organizations have only expressed interest in promoting circumcision programs in high-risk areas as a hedge against HIV. This is because it would be very redundant for a text on circumcision campaigns in sub-Saharan Africa to include the qualifier "in high risk areas" or "in sub-saharan Africa" every other sentence. It is a given, if you read the context it is presented in. Additionally, the other organizations cited by the WHO for supporting circumcision here were the Southern African HIV Clinicians Society in Namibia, and Treatment Action Campaign - an HIV advocacy group in South Africa.

That said, I do not as strongly oppose mentioning this in its appropriate context (that most support it for HIV prevention in high-risk areas, particularly sub-Saharan Africa), but even then we already include the WHO's recommendation, so it seems a tad redundant that we would include the WHO's recommendation in the lead as well as a source by the WHO that states most organizations support the recommendation made by the WHO. But again, I do not oppose this as much as suggesting that most professional medical associations support universal circumcision for HIV prevention. Therewillbefact (talk) 21:29, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

The text that I interpret to mean "that most [medical associations] support [circumcision] for HIV prevention" is the sentence: "With few exceptions, donors, academia, professional medical associations and HIV advocacy groups supported male circumcision for the prevention of HIV infection." Note that it doesn't qualify this as "in high-risk areas, particularly sub-Saharan Africa", so if we were to do so it would be original research. Jakew (talk) 21:35, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

I would like to again highlight the ambiguity of the text (as well as its title, and the content preceding and following the statement). Notice how text mentions "major donors like the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation and the United States President’s Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief were willing to fund male circumcision programmes", which would be factually incorrect if interpreted at face value, as I've pointed out. The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation as well as the PEPFAR have only expressed interest in endorsing male circumcision programmes in high-risk areas. Therewillbefact (talk) 22:08, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

That argument doesn't make sense. If an organisation has been willing to fund at least two male circumcision programmes, the statement "organisation X has been willing to fund male circumcision programmes" is true. Similarly, if I've eaten at least two apples in my life, the statement "Jake has eaten apples" is true. To stretch the analogy a little, you're essentially saying that if I only eat golden delicious apples, and have never have consumed a braeburn, then it is incorrect to say that I've eaten apples. But that's not the case. Willingness to fund male circumcision programmes does not imply willingness to fund every conceivable male circumcision programme. Jakew (talk) 22:23, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

I do not think you understand my point. Let's take a step back: first, the organizations BMGF and PEPFAR were only interested in funding circumcision campaigns in high-risk areas; the sentence is written in past tense, pay close attention to use of the word "were" by the WHO. This text fails to distinguish this important detail - probably because it is laden in content that only discusses the merit of circumcision in high-risk areas. Additionally, I've tried finding a single medical organization that recommends universal circumcision for HIV prevention, and I couldn't even find a single one. It stands to reason that we need to find other secondary sources that make this claim, since the WHO also neglected to provide a single instance of an organization that supported circumcision for HIV prevention (it did, however, provide four organizations that support circumcision efforts in high-risk regions). The burden of proof still falls on the WHO if we are to interpret this at face value, since it did not even provide a single medical association that recommends circumcision everywhere for HIV prevention. Therewillbefact (talk) 23:12, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

First, neither the source itself nor the sentence fragment proposed for the article claims that any organisations recommend universal circumcision for HIV prevention, so the relevance of that is unclear. You also say that "it did not even provide a single medical association that recommends circumcision everywhere for HIV prevention", which is odd because they don't claim that organisations recommend circumcision everywhere. What they do say is that they support circumcision for HIV prevention, which doesn't necessarily imply recommendation or that the support is without geographical context. Second, you appear to contradict yourself by stating "the WHO also neglected to provide a single instance of an organization that supported circumcision for HIV prevention" and "it did, however, provide four organizations that support circumcision efforts in high-risk regions". Were there zero or four? Finally, please note that the KNMG did not provide a list of every single medical association in the world, nor any indication that they had checked every single one; you therefore seem to be demanding different standards of proof from different sources. Jakew (talk) 09:40, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

To address your first comment, I think that if the topic does not address the opinions of medical organizations with respect to the merits of general (universal) circumcision procedures, it is far narrower in scope than the two sentences we were deciding between. Actually, I'm actually happy you've acknowledged that the text makes no recommendation regarding circumcision - because this helps us see that it is in fact far narrower in scope than the sentences we were working with. Please keep in mind that the topic we are discussing is whether or not most medical associations routinely recommend for (or against the procedure).

To address your second comment, I left out a word -- I meant to type "the WHO also neglected to provide a single instance of an organization that supported routine circumcision for HIV prevention". Sorry for the confusion there Jake.

Regarding your third point, the viewpoint that no medical association does not recommend routine circumcision has been one stated for many years. Only one organization recommending routine circumcision would have to surface in order to prompt the KNMG to re-evaluate their statement. To give credence to the WHO's text regarding organizations that support general routine circumcision, I'd like to see at least one organization that advocates for this. The four organizations I cited from the text support circumcision specifically in high risk areas only. Therewillbefact (talk) 23:17, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

As I've noted below, we're actually concerned with a question broader in scope than whether universal circumcision is recommended.

Regarding your omitted word, that makes things a little clearer, but I'm afraid I still don't understand. Why on earth do you expect the WHO to supply an organisation supporting routine circumcision when they haven't stated that any exist?

Finally, you're again misrepresenting what the WHO actually say. The WHO do not make any statement "regarding organizations that support general routine circumcision". Jakew (talk) 09:38, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Then it actually looks like there's much more room to integrate the summaries of medical associations in this sentence than I imagined, considering this widened scope we are now working with. Please see my comment dated 00:59, 28 February 2012 under Talk:Circumcision#Another_compromise_idea and we can continue our compromise there. Therewillbefact (talk) 07:47, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Another compromise idea

The above discussion (which is by no means finished) suggests that compromise material is likely to be rather long. This is a little concerning, as the lead is already rather long. I therefore suggest that we consider an alternative:

• At the start of the Circumcision#Positions of medical associations section, we can introduce a paragraph outlining the various summaries, as discussed above. We should try to keep the paragraph concise, but we don't need to condense the material quite as much as in the lead, so we can discuss the nature of each source & some information about it.
• In the lead, we either remove the material altogether, or include a brief, neutral sentence that occupies a "middle-ground" in terms of the summaries. (This may be easier said than done.)

Thoughts? Jakew (talk) 22:35, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for trying to move this forward. I propose reconciling the two sentences in question by just stating them both. Perhaps:

• Summaries of the views of medical organisations have included: that most recommend neither universal circumcision nor a prohibition against the practice, and (from the Royal Dutch Medical Association) that none currently recommend routine circumcision.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Therewillbefact (talk • contribs) 23:32, 25 February 2012‎

I still don't understand why all of these "compromises" involve leaving out one specific summary out of three, and therefore violating WP:NPOV, and I've yet to see a response that specifically addresses that issue. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:41, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes. Therewillbefact, please don't waste time by proposing things that have already, in effect, been rejected. It is a slap in the face to those of us who are genuinely trying to negotiate a compromise. Jakew (talk) 09:48, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

First, I do not appreciate being told that I am wasting time, Jakew. That is not - and never was - my intention. I'm trying to be civil and productive here, and you just singled me out as an editor who is not genuinely trying to negotiate a compromise. I would appreciate it if your editing comments fell more in line with proper Wikipedia:Etiquette.

Second, the topic in question is summarizing the opinions of medical organizations with respect to whether the procedure should generally be performed. Anything else is probably too narrow in scope here; we seem to be taking this in a different direction. Additionally, the 2009 text Print media reporting of male circumcision for preventing HIV infection in sub-Saharan Africa concentrates its efforts on the merits of circumcision in, obviously, sub-Saharan Africa. Again, it would be redundant for the text to make the qualifier "in high-risk areas" or "in sub-Saharan Africa" every sentence (as I've pointed out, this qualifier is missing in other areas of the text where it absolutely does apply). Summarizing this statement in the manner you suggested does not put it in its appropriate context - please read the preceding paragraph of the text, and the text that follows it. It all very obviously applies to supporting circumcision programmes in high-risk areas. I am also attempting to get clarification on this from correspondence of the text as we speak. Therewillbefact (talk) 22:39, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Please also see my comment dated 23:17, 26 February 2012 under Talk:Circumcision#Compromise_for_lede for further explanation. Therewillbefact (talk) 23:22, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

I see hypocrisy in these authors accusing therewillbefact of "wasting there time". I have no doubt that most authors feel that way about there opposition but do not state it to remain civil. After the RFC, it became clear that #1 should definitely be included, and #2 should probably also be included. His suggestion has also NOT been rejected in the current RFC. It seems very close to the above suggestion. Though I think passamethod statement:

"Summaries of views from medical associations have included that no professional association of physicians currently recommends routine circumcision[1], and that most recommend neither universal circumcision nor a prohibition against the practice."[7]

would probably work best and has the most support.Gsonnenf (talk) 07:10, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

I still don't understand why all of these "compromises" involve leaving out one specific summary out of three, and therefore violating WP:NPOV, and I've yet to see a response that specifically addresses that issue. Jayjg ^(talk) 13:18, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, Therewillbefact, it does seem rather uncivil to propose something that fails to include X right after another proposal has been rejected for failing to include X.

Second, it's not specifically about "whether the procedure should generally be performed"; rather, it's about how others have chosen to summarise the views of medical organisations. There are many narrower questions that those sources could focus on. Some focus on whether universal circumcision is recommended, some address whether parental discretion is addressed, some address whether medical benefits are discussed, some whether HIV programmes are supported. To argue that only one of those is a valid summary is to introduce serious bias in a sentence that purportedly presents a range of summaries.

Finally, as noted, we cannot add our own qualifiers to a sentence: that's original research by definition. Jakew (talk) 09:30, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Alright. Now that we have established that the scope of this sentence has been widened beyond professional recommendation regarding whether or not circumcision should be routinely performed, I'd like to present another source we can integrate with the summaries we are working with. PMID 21716785 states the following: "Most medical institutions in various countries agree that although there may be health benefits, there is no medical justification for routine circumcision in neonates or children". Now that we've widened the scope of this sentence to the extent that we have, there seems to be merit to including this pubmed-indexed source as well with the others. I am also looking into more sources that we can include here, but this is the first one I'd like to present.

I'd also like to remind you that up until your edit dated 20:33, 19 February 2012 in Talk:Circumcision under Possible compromise, the topic in question dealt solely with what professional medical opinions believed with respect to routinely recommending the procedure. Now we've taken it into a different direction, by summarizing the opinions of medical associations with regard to health benefits and adversities. Therewillbefact (talk) 19:58, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Are you proposing to include this source instead of the KNMG? The reason why I ask is that is says something very similar, and including both would consequently be rather redundant. Anyway, I suggested above that we include lengthier discussion of various summaries at Circumcision#Positions of medical associations. If that proposal were followed, I think it would seem reasonable to include this source there (as long as care was taken to avoid redundancy).

As for your "reminder", it's factually incorrect. The RFC was opened eight days earlier than the edit you mention (20:55, 11 February 2012), and one of the sentences offered for comment discusses whether medical associations advocated a prohibition against the practice, which wouldn't make sense if the scope was only whether they recommended universal circumcision. Jakew (talk) 20:14, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

I am suggesting it stands to reason that we need to include both the KNMG's statment in addition to the one made by PMID 21716785, since we have widened the scope here to the extent that we have. Please pay special attention to the rhetoric of the sources. One source states that no professional association of physicians recommend routine circumcision, while the other states that medical institutions agree that there is no medical justification for routine circumcision in neonates or children (emphasis mine). As such, they both provide important information that merits summarizing. Given that we have now widened the scope of the sentence beyond just professional recommendation for-or-against circumcision, it would be original research to suggest that these two sources can be summarized by only utilizing one of them. We need to state what the sources say and let our readers figure out if it means the same thing for themselves, Jake.

What these sources state seems like very important information, information that our readers will very likely want to infer when they visit this page; it should absolutely be included in the lead for Circumcision. Therewillbefact (talk) 00:59, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

As noted, there's a certain amount of repetition between the two, but there's no reason why PMID 21716785 shouldn't be included in the detailed discussion in the body of the article. Jakew (talk) 09:05, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

It looks like I have to explain myself here. It would be original research to suggest that both sources can be summarized by only using one of them here, since they do not state the same thing. Again, one suggests that most medical institutions agree that there is no medical justification for routine circumcision in neonates or children, the other states that there is no professional association of physicians currently recommends routine circumcision (emph mine). These are both important summaries that deserve summarization, given the widened scope of medical summaries we are now allowed to work with. Therewillbefact (talk) 17:43, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

The KNMG's statement is logically equivalent to saying that all such associations do not currently recommend routine circumcision. Consequently, there is no need to say that "most" do not recommend routine circumcision (or similar), because "most" is a subset of "all". It's like quoting one source that says "humans have one head" and another saying "no humans have three heads": needlessly repetitive. Jakew (talk) 18:09, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Let's be clear that PMID 21716785 makes absolutely no mention with respect to what most medical associations explicitly recommend, which renders your argument that "there is no need to say that 'most' do not recommend routine circumcision" as logically invalid. Again, the word "recommend" is nowhere to be found in what I quoted from the source, so please stop trying to do your own original research to infer what the source is trying to say. Also please remember that we have widened the scope here beyond mere recommendations by medical associations. Your figurative comparison of my argument also does not fall in line with what my point here at all; please make more accurate Talk:Circumcision comments. Therewillbefact (talk) 21:27, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

It is important to include that medical professionals state there is no medical justification for routine neonatal circumcision. Therewillbefact makes a solid argument.Gsonnenf (talk) 21:33, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Ah, I see you've changed the emphasis; previously you drew attention to the words "no" and "most". I agree that this source doesn't explicitly use the term "recommend", and therefore it shouldn't be used when describing that source (if it is ultimately used). Nevertheless, the need to avoid redundancy does require us to consider whether sources say similar things, even if the language used isn't identical. Protesting that this is "original research" is a creative application of that policy, but ultimately unconstructive, as understanding the meaning of sources and the relationships between them is a necessary part of the editorial process. One question that we might consider is: are there any plausible circumstances under which might such an organisation recommend routinely doing something if it were not medically justified? Jakew (talk) 09:29, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Why? That seems like it is absolutely original research to me. Tftobin (talk) 16:54, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

I thought I'd just explained why. If we declare that deciding whether two sources say the same thing is "original research", and hence disallowed, then the result would be that we'd have to include every article on every topic, unless they used exactly the same words in the same order to describe their viewpoint. Articles would grow ad infinitum, be highly repetitive, tedious, and essentially useless for the reader. Similarly, if we disallow comparing the viewpoints expressed by sources then the question "have we discussed major viewpoints regarding this issue" is unanswerable, and it is thus impossible to implement NPOV. It therefore stands to reason that there is and must be a reasonable allowance for understanding what sources mean and how they compare. In contrast, original research more often refers to one's own opinions about the subject, or criticism or praise of a particular source. Jakew (talk) 17:26, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

"are there any plausible circumstances under which might such an organisation recommend routinely doing something if it were not medically justified?" is not a question I see in those sources. This is why I ask. This is what seems like original research to me. Tftobin (talk) 18:52, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Correct, it's not in the sources. It's a question that I asked to help us to understand whether there is significant overlap between the two statements. Jakew (talk) 18:54, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Please read my response above, dated 21:27 28 February 2012, where I clearly explained that PMID 21716785 made no mention with regard to what most medical associations recommend; conversely, please acknowledge that the quoted part of the KNMG source deals solely with professional recommendation. Again, this renders your argument that "there is no need to say that 'most' do not recommend routine circumcision" as rather moot, not to mention original research. As a reminder, please remember that we've widened the scope here beyond professional recommendation by medical associations regarding the procedure, permitting for us to mention what this source states most medical institutions believe. Also, please at least provide relevant Wikipedia policy to substantiate your argument the next time you assert that editors are permitted extrapolate the meaning of different sentences to mean the same thing. Therewillbefact (talk) 19:28, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

I read that response, Therewillbefact, and replied to it in my post dated 09:29, 29 February 2012. Jakew (talk) 19:31, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Then I'm sure you understand why it is increasingly more difficult to give credence to your rebuttals here - given that you have neither provided relevant Wikipedia policy to substantiate your argument, nor a satisfactory explanation regarding how editors are permitted to interpret these two different sentences to mean the same thing. Therewillbefact (talk) 20:40, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

On the contrary, "it is increasingly more difficult to give credence to your rebuttals here", because they appear to be premised on the notion that sources can never be summarized or paraphrased, and that all relevant sources must always be included in all articles, even if they say essentially the same thing. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:39, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

I still have yet to see any relevant wiki policy that gives any weight to the notion that as editors, we are permitted to interpret one source that addresses recommendation by professional association of physicians and another regarding medical justification of medical institutions to mean "essentially the same thing". This is the second time I've had to say this, and neither you nor Jake have addressed it in your responses. Will I have to state it again? Therewillbefact (talk) 03:15, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

As explained above, it would be effectively impossible to edit Wikipedia if we, as editors, were not permitted to evaluate sources to determine and compare viewpoints expressed in them. Jakew (talk) 09:00, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Permitted to compare viewpoints is one thing. Coming up with an original statement such as "are there any plausible circumstances under which might such an organisation recommend routinely doing something if it were not medically justified?" is not comparing viewpoints expressed in them. It seems like it is trying to synthesize a new viewpoint, from something not in the originals. Tftobin (talk) 14:26, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Answering that question will help shed light on whether there is a significant difference between not recommending routine circumcision and saying that there is no medical justification for routine circumcision. It is interesting, I think, that there is such resistance to addressing it. Jakew (talk) 14:39, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

It's not to insult you Jake, but before I devote the time to address it, I'd just like to see the relevant wiki policy that gives any weight to the notion that as editors, we are permitted to interpret one source that addresses recommendation by professional association of physicians and another regarding medical justification of medical institutions to mean "essentially the same thing". This is the third time I've had to say this without being shown any relevant policy. I'm growing a little tired of repeating myself here. FactoidDroid (talk) 17:21, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm sure you're not the only one growing tired of the repetition, Therewillbefact. Wikipedia policy rarely provides an exhaustive list of permitted behaviours; it usually provides general principles and editors are expected to interpret them in a sensible manner that is consistent with itself, with other policies, and with the fundamental task of building an encyclopaedia. Jakew (talk) 17:33, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm actually quite surprised you could not find a single Wikipedia policy that addresses this issue, given that it would prompt articles to become "effectively impossible to edit" and "highly repetitive, tedious, and essentially useless for the reader". Surely, if these instances could surface as often as you state, there has to be some sort of policy by now that addresses it. It still seems to me that inferring between two different sentences (one regarding recommendation by professional association of physicians and another regarding medical justification of medical institutions) to mean "essentially the same thing" is, to put it lightly, a questionable editing practice. FactoidDroid (talk) 18:17, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

If such an interpretation would lead to articles becoming impossible to edit, then no policy is needed, just a more sensible interpretation. Jakew (talk) 18:33, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Your conclusion seems like one deduced by mere surmise, Jake. FactoidDroid (talk) 18:49, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

I think you could drive a truck between the statements, "recommendation by professional association of physicians" and "medical justification of medical institutions". Some have made careers, industries, money, and crusades, out of the difference. Tftobin (talk) 19:09, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

(unindenting) Returning to the subject, the proposed text seems to be growing as discussion continues. This isn't terribly surprising — it's rare, unfortunately, for material to become more concise during these discussions — but we do need to consider what to do given the fact that only a fairly small amount of space is available in the lead. The most logical approach, I think, is to include this lengthier summary at the beginning of the Circumcision#Positions of medical associations section, and write a shorter summary for the lead. The real question is whether a suitably neutral sentence can be written. I suspect that it would be difficult, though perhaps not impossible, to summarise the policies themselves. We might try providing an overview of summaries, perhaps selecting two in order to represent the different extremes. Jakew (talk) 19:23, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

I think a summary like so could do well. Here I'm summarize the results from the articles we have read, and give the conclusions we find in them.

Reviews from medical associations have included that no professional association of physicians recommend routine circumcision[1], but most support circumcision as an optional procedure."[7]

I think this sums up the position of medical associations very well and also accurately represents our source material, avoiding OR. Gsonnenf (talk) 22:42, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

I still don't understand why all of these "compromises" involve leaving out one specific summary out of three, and therefore violating WP:NPOV, and I've yet to see a response that specifically addresses that issue. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:40, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

If you've read Jake's comment above dated 19:23, 28 February 2012, you would know he stated that we will likely have to summarize fewer than all the sources available to us, given the small space available in the lead. Therewillbefact (talk) 03:15, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

There are only two summaries specific to this RFC. There are an infinite number of other additions we can make, giving one special status for this RFC does not make sense.Gsonnenf (talk) 07:47, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Gsonnenf, can I ask you to read through the preceding compromise discussions, including those in the box labelled "old compromises"? Once you've done so you might wish to make another proposal. This, unfortunately, suffers from several of the same problems as those discussed above. Jakew (talk) 09:00, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for acknowledging that, Therewillbefact. It does make a difference.

May I suggest that we consider what should be included in the body of the article first, then worry about the lead afterwards? It seems to make more sense to do things that way around. Here's a rough draft of what I have in mind:

• A number of authors have published summaries of the views of medical organisations. The Royal Dutch Medical Association, in their 2011 policy statement, state that no professional association of physicians recommend routine circumcision. Viens, in an analysis of the ethics of circumcision, notes that while most organisations do not recommend universal circumcision, most regard it as justifiable, and do not advocate for prohibition against the practice. Wang et al, reporting on a systematic review of print media reporting of circumcision for HIV prevention in an African context, reported that most medical associations supported circumcision for HIV prevention.

Jakew (talk) 12:11, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

A meta analysis of medical associations circumcision policies state that the risks outweigh the benefits which is why they do not recommend routine neonatal circumcision. To say it is justifiable seems to contradict the prevalent medical opinion in these summaries. If we were to expound and say it is justifiable in a religious or cultural sense I would feel we are adhering to NPOV standards and our sources. I also feel the addition of the HIV in the summary is still WP:UNDUE unless we plan on removing the previous HIV paragraph as a compromise. Garycompugeek (talk) 15:45, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

First, what meta-analysis are you referring to? Second, justifiable refers to the cited source, which states: "However, this is a different question of whether infant male circumcision is a justifiable procedure—that is, whether the provision of this procedure can be allowed. Most medical associations maintain that it is in fact justifiable—no medical body has advocated a policy that calls for the prohibition of circumcision." As you'll see, it doesn't say "justifiable in a religious or cultural sense". Jakew (talk) 15:51, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

no medical body has advocated a policy that calls for the prohibition of circumcision? I'd say the Swedish Paediatric Society (BLF) advocates for a ban. "In a statement submitted to the National Board of Health and Welfare (Socialstyrelsen), the society called the procedure an assault." "We consider it to be an assault on these boys," Staffan Janson, chairman of BLF's committee for ethical issues and childrens' rights, said to newspaper Göteborgs-Posten (GP)." "After discussing the matter for several years, BLF has now concluded that the procedure ought to be banned on the grounds that the children are unable to form a decision in the matter." http://www.thelocal.se/39200/20120219/ Tftobin (talk) 20:48, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

The question is, is this Viens' summary or Tftobin's? Jakew (talk) 20:50, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Not really. If her assertion is factually incorrect, perhaps it shouldn't be used. I didn't make up the Swedish Paediatric Society's statement. Tftobin (talk) 21:19, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Where is PMID 21716785? You stated on 09:05, 28 February 2012 that "there's no reason why PMID 21716785 shouldn't be included in the detailed discussion in the body of the article". FactoidDroid (talk) 18:27, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

I asked if you wanted to replace the KNMG's statement with that paper, and your response seemed to be negative. Hence I didn't include it. Jakew (talk) 18:33, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE weight given to HIV section in lead

The HIV paragraph in the lead does not convey the criticism attributed to it and violates WP:NPOV standards. I suggest changing it to

Circumcision is used therapeutically, as one of the treatment options for balanitis xerotica obliterans, phimosis, balanitis, posthitis, balanoposthitis and urinary tract infections.[10][11] Conflicting evidence exist that indicates circumcision reduces the risk of HIV infection in heterosexual men by 38-66% in populations that are at high risk in conjunction with consistent safe sexual practices to maintain the protective benefit.[78] Garycompugeek (talk) 18:34, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

We've already discussed this at length, Gary. Jakew (talk) 18:40, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree discussion on this lead needs to continue. A minority of authors ignored the policy based criticisms and changed it without consensus. This lead is obviously a turd and needs to be revised until we can come to consensus.Gsonnenf (talk) 04:43, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

There comes a point when endless discussion becomes unproductive, and I think we've passed that point. Jakew (talk) 09:02, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Respectfully, it's only unproductive for the status quo. It's way past time to re-write the lede. It relies on the United Nations too much. I have a relative who's a veterinarian with the United Nations. He's really opened my eyes about the political control from the top. U.N. medical groups work for the political agenda of their bosses. Chevara (talk) 20:18, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Regardless of your personal opinion, here on Wikipedia, the WHO is considered a high quality source, and to suggest that it is not will not get you anywhere. If you would like, you can take it up on the reliable sources noticeboard to see if you can get an agreement that the WHO is not reliable, but until that happens, we shouldn't be wasting our time even discussing the topic. Yobol (talk) 20:24, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

I am seconding Gary's suggestion. By word count, almost a quarter of the lead is dedicated to the association of circumcision and lower HIV rates in high-risk areas. By contrast, roughly 10% of the lead discusses a controversy. We still have not been given a reason why such a disproportionate amount of the weight is placed on the health benefits of HIV compared to discussion regarding controversy. Additionally, there is no acknowledgment of opposing viewpoints, even though - using jakew's own numbers - 8% of recent professional opinion opposed to the narrative of circumcision as "strong" evidence (see Talk:Circumcision/Archive_69#Paragraph_Three). Therewillbefact (talk) 22:34, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

WHO is one of many high quality source, though its generally recognized they have a higher degree of political affiliation, and there opinion should be taken in context.Gsonnenf (talk) 01:53, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

We've asked what reliable material from review articles should be added to the "controversy" part of the lede, but have yet to receive any concrete suggestions. "Higher degree of political affiliation" is meaningless in this context. The two sentences on HIV present the consensus of review articles on the efficacy of circumcision in reducing HIV rates, and size of the HIV section in the lede was recently cut almost in half; there has never been any consensus to reduce it even further. Again, it's two sentences. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:58, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

While the content may be covered in two sentences, Jayjg, these are also the longest sentences in the lead, averaging over 30 words each. The longest sentence in the lead is actually the one devoted to HIV, a word salad of 34 words. Given this, I do not think sentence count is an appropriate litmus test for weight here.

Aside from the two sentences you are referring to, the only other sentence with a length of over 22 words is actually the one dedicated to controversy. As of today, this is the only sentence dedicated to controversy surrounding circumcision in the lead. There might have been two sentences regarding controversy yesterday, but this was cut in half today - please keep this mind during our discussion. Right now, the amount of content regarding HIV and circumcision outnumbers that of controversy by over 2:1 in word count, and 2:1 using your own barometer, sentence count. Again, we haven't seen an explanation of why this disparate difference in content weight is appropriate yet. Therewillbefact (talk) 11:42, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Again, several people have asked what material from review articles should be added to the controversies material in the lede, but not gotten any specific suggestions. In addition, you haven't explained why "2:1" is an "inappropriate content weight" - just claiming it is isn't good enough. And finally (to repeat something I've pointed out many times), word count is a purely mechanistic method of analyzing a lede, and one which is neither appropriate nor supported by guideline or policy. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:16, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

I oppose this suggestion. Probably more effective to put it forth as a RfC though.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:02, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

The current Lede weights too heavily with United Nations and World Health Organization recommendations intended for Third World nations. The World Health Organization Member States are grouped into six regions. Each region has a regional office that has established an HIV Regional Action Plan through 2015. Only the Regional Office for Africa and the Regional Office for the Eastern Mediterranean (Islamic) recommend male circumcision in their regional plans. The Regional Offices for the Americas, South-East Asia, Europe, and the Western Pacific do not mention circumcision in their HIV Regional Action Plans. Chevara (talk) 19:02, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Assuming that's true, I'm afraid I can't quite see the relevance. Given that more than a billion people live in Africa, recommendations involving those people are hardly insignificant in global terms. And in fact much of the recent literature on circumcision discusses this population. Jakew (talk) 20:02, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

This is my first time visiting this particular Wikipedia page, but I agree that the opening paragraph's discussion of circumcision HIV is bizarrely out of place. There is already a later section discussing in detail the role that some medical professionals believe circumcision might have in disease prevention, so anything more than a brief mention of disease in the intro is overkill. Also, the use of the phrase "strong evidence" is not NPOV, since there is actually debate about the biological significance of circumcision in HIV prevention among scientists and physicians, and there is poor correlation between circumcision and HIV prevalence worldwide. Now, I don't think we need to go into that controversy until the later section of the article, either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ScienceGalKK (talk • contribs) 15:46, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Each World Health Organization Regional Office has its own website. http://www.who.int/about/regions/en/index.html Does everyone stipulate to the following statement of fact: "The World Health Organization Member States are grouped into six regions. Each region has a regional office that has established an HIV Regional Action Plan through 2015. Only the Regional Office for Africa and the Regional Office for the Eastern Mediterranean (Islamic) recommend male circumcision in their regional plans. The Regional Offices for the Americas, South-East Asia, Europe, and the Western Pacific do not mention circumcision in their HIV Regional Action Plans." Chevara (talk) 17:25, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Please quote the reliable source that makes that claim. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:51, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

1. European Action Plan for HIV/AIDS 2012-2015 2011, v + 72 pages ISBN 978 92 890 0252 3 http://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0011/153875/e95953.pdf (No Mention of Circumcision in the 72 page European Action Plan for HIV/AIDS 2012-2015) From p. 72 - "The primary audience for the European Action Plan for HIV/AIDS 2012–2015 is the national authorities in the WHO European Region responsible for HIV diagnosis, prevention, treatment, care and support, including health ministries and other government bodies responsible for health. The Action Plan is also intended for national authorities and ministries other than those directly responsible for health, including finance, education, social welfare, child protection, transportation, infrastructure, criminal justice, labour, immigration, development, defence, and foreign affairs, as well as associations, professional bodies, researchers, academics, civil society, advocacy groups, trade unions, the private sector, and international and global partners, including bilateral and multilateral donors."

"The WHO Regional Office for Europe is one of six regional offices throughout the world, each with its own programme geared to the particular health conditions of the countries it serves. Albania Andorra Armenia Austria Azerbaijan Belarus Belgium Bosnia and Herzegovina Bulgaria Croatia Cyprus Czech Republic Denmark Estonia Finland France Georgia Germany Greece Hungary Iceland Ireland Israel Italy Kazakhstan Kyrgyzstan Latvia Lithuania Luxembourg Malta Monaco Montenegro Netherlands Norway Poland Portugal Republic of Moldova Romania Russian Federation San Marino Serbia Slovakia Slovenia Spain Sweden Switzerland Tajikistan The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia Turkey Turkmenistan Ukraine United Kingdom Uzbekistan"

Regional Office for the Americas Pan American Health Organization Region Office of the World Health Organization 2. Regional HIV/STI Plan for the Health Sector 2006-2015 http://new.paho.org/hq/dmdocuments/2008/HIV_Regional_Plan_2006-2015_eng.pdf (No Mention of circumcision) Countries in the WHO Region of the Americas: Antigua and Barbuda Argentina Bahamas Barbados Belize Bolivia (Plurinational State of) Brazil Canada Chile Colombia Costa Rica Cuba Dominica Dominican Republic Ecuador El Salvador Grenada Guatemala Guyana Haiti Honduras Jamaica Mexico Nicaragua Panama Paraguay Peru Saint Kitts and Nevis Saint Lucia Saint Vincent and the Grenadines Suriname Trinidad and Tobago United States of America Uruguay Venezuela (Bolivarian Republic of)

World Health Organization Regional Office for South-East Asia 3. REGIONAL HEALTH SECTOR STRATEGY ON HIV, 2011–2015 (41 pages) http://www.searo.who.int/LinkFiles/HIV-AIDS_Reg_Health_Sector_Strategy_HIV_2011-2015.pdf (No Mention of Circumcision)

4. Remarks by Dr Shin Young-soo WHO Regional Director for the Western Pacific at the 10th International Congress on AIDS in Asia and the Pacific Busan, Republic of Korea 26 August 2011 http://www.wpro.who.int/regional_director/speeches/speech_20110826a.htm

Message of WHO Regional Director for the Western Pacific, Dr Shin Young-soo, on World AIDS Day, 1 December 2011 http://www.wpro.who.int/regional_director/speeches/message_20111130.htm (No Mention of Circumcision for Western Pacific Region in documents or Regional Director's remarks.)

5.Joint Strategic Action Framework to Accelerate the Scale-Up of Voluntary Medical Male Circumcision for HIV Prevention in Eastern and Southern Africa 2012–2016 http://www.pepfar.gov/documents/organization/178294.pdf

World Health Organization Regional Office for the Eastern Mediterranean http://www.emro.who.int/asd/elements_circumcision.htm 6. HIV/TB strategy for the Eastern Mediterranean Region An HIV/TB strategy for the Eastern Mediterranean Region 2006–2010 Document forthcoming http://www.emro.who.int/asd/plan_hiv_tb.htm

Jayjg, you'll note that only the African and Eastern Mediterranean Regions have adopted or mentioned circumcision in their strategic HIV plans. The other four regions ignore circumcision in their Action Plans. Chevara (talk) 02:57, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

So there are no reliable sources that state this, this is all based on your own original research? Jayjg ^(talk) 15:09, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Jayjg, for Wikipedia, the prohibition against OR means that all material added to articles must be attributable to a reliable published source, even if not actually attributed. I'm not suggesting that we include the European or Americas HIV Action Plans in the article. These WHO Action Plans are certainly relevant to our discussion on this page, whether the Lede weighs too heavily on the African Action Plan for HIV/AIDS, and ignores the majority of WHO Regions' policy, and especially the Regional HIV Action Plans for the nations of most editors here. Chevara (talk) 16:57, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

First, the prohibition against OR applies to talk pages too, albeit not to quite the same extent; see WP:TALK#Maintain Wikipedia policy. Second, the lead doesn't even mention an African Action Plan, so it is difficult to see how it would be weighted too heavily, and thirdly you still haven't responded to the points I raised in my post dated 20:02, 12 February 2012. Jakew (talk) 17:03, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘

• As far as I've seen, all evidence of circumcision being a preventative of HIV transmission are based on heterosexual vaginal-penile transmission. Given that the AIDS epidemic in the Americas, Europe, and other areas are primarily based on transmission other than vaginal-penile transmission (e.g., homosexual, IV drug use, blood transfusions and other iatrogenic transmissions), it shouldn't surprise anyone that no mention is made in several areas of WHO, but it's omission also proves nothing about WHO's ideas about whether circumcision ought be tried to stem heterosexual vaginal-penile transmission. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 08:28, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

A number of editors have acknowledged the WHO's different Regional Action Plans for HIV without being disturbed by the implications. Are we writing this article for non-English speakers from Africa, to make sure they have the latest World health HIV prevention guidelines for their specific region. Does a regional study, adopted nowhere else, belong in the Lede? Anyone familiar with a bureaucracy realizes that four of the six WHO regions dumped the HIV/circ studies in the waste basket. We put it in Wikipedia. Chevara (talk) 03:43, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia is written with a global perspective (see WP:NPOVFAQ#Anglo-American focus), on the basis of the emphasis given in reliable sources. A brief look at the PubMed database, for example, will reveal that a large amount of emphasis is currently given to circumcision in Africa alone. Thus, it's important. Your conclusion that WHO regions "dumped the HIV/circ studies in the waste basket" is original research, and is inconsistent with the fact that WHO's recommendations are to employ circumcision in areas with high HIV rates and low circumcision rates. It should therefore be unsurprising that regions with a large number of countries matching that description (eg., Africa) are paying more attention to circumcision than regions such as Europe, which have few. Jakew (talk) 09:29, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Chevara has demonstrated that even other WHO offices around the world disregard this HIV recommendation and Jake is also correct that it only applies to a very limited scope so I ask again why we place so much weight on this? Is it lead worthy? No not at all. Garycompugeek (talk) 15:21, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

No, Chevara has not demonstrated that. We place considerable weight on it because sources do. Jakew (talk) 16:01, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I think Chevara has shown insight into what sources are not giving it considerable weight, and those are important sources considering how much HIV affects them. Gsonnenf (talk) 22:22, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Please review WP:NOR. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:10, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Not very helpful considering we have plenty of sources that take issue with the African HIV trails. What you meant was WP:ICANTHEARYOU. Garycompugeek (talk) 19:37, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm not aware of "plenty" of reliable secondary sources that "take issue with the African HIV trails". Are there any review articles that come to that conclusion? Also, your accusation of "WP:ICANTHEARYOU" is highly uncivil. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:14, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

When you talk about uncivil behavior, I have to believe you are joking. There is an expression, "Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. There are editors who would be wise to practice what they preach Tftobin (talk) 12:55, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't see what your comment has to do with article content. Please review WP:NPA and WP:TPYES. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:09, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

WP:NOR applies to article content. wiki authors must do research and aggregation to determine what weight a source should be given. Please stop improperly applying wiki policy. The standard procedure is to aggregate reliable and dominant sources and identify what is the majority view. Chevara has gone above and beyond, doing an excellent job of determining what the majority view is and you should respect his findings instead of trying to wiki lawyer them away. Gsonnenf (talk) 03:56, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘"Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" etc. are statements that have nothing to do with WP:NOR or any other policy; in fact, they have nothing to do with article content at all. The banned sockpuppet Chevara made claims about the WHO by doing original research on primary sources and an argument from silence. Wikipedia content is based on reliable secondary sources, and in the case of articles like this, review articles. Please make more accurate Talk: page statements. Jayjg ^(talk) 05:02, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

I was obviously commenting on this: Please review WP:NOR. Jayjg (talk) 17:10, 20 February 2012 (UTC). which you made a few lines up. In wikipedia we read many sources complied by WP:RELIABLE, and often use the guidline WP:MEDRS for medical research. We ALL agree to that. But to determine WP:WEIGHT we look at many sources and find the trend to determine what is the majority view and what is WP:UNDUE. That is what was done here and it is not a violation of WP:NOR. Gsonnenf (talk) 05:38, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

It was hardly obvious that you were responding to a comment I made three comments earlier, rather than to the comment under which you directly placed your response. The rest of your comment regarding WP:UNDUE is not relevant to what I posted, since Chevara's comments did not in any way determine "what is the majority view". Rather, Chevara in effect claimed that "internally the WHO doesn't actually agree with its stated public positions and programs on HIV and circumcision" - a claim that is, at best, absurd, and which, at the very least, requires reliable secondary sources also making that claim to be given any degree of credibility. Please provide the reliable secondary sources that agree with or support Chevara's claims. Jayjg ^(talk) 07:31, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Your argument is not applicable. We do not need a secondary sources for determining the stated policy of an organization, especially when considering it for determining weight of an opinion. It is clear from the previous arguments their is UNDUE weight given to the HIV lead and the sources you want to suppress that establish this are relevant. If you have a source that shows HIV should keep its current weight, please present it.Gsonnenf (talk) 07:02, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

No sources have been provided to the contrary, so in the absence of any other evidence, it's logical to assume that WHO's policy is what they say it is. Jakew (talk) 09:14, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Yep. Gsonnenf, if you have any reliable secondary sources stating that the WHO's policy on HIV is not what it says, or that the WHO is riven by internal dissent on this issue, please present them. Jayjg ^(talk) 13:16, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘No one is contesting the recommendation of the main WHO body. You need to recognize that WHO regional offices set their own policy and the majority of their HIV plans do not recommend circumcision. This helps establish WP:UNDUE as follows:

1. There is no evidence that the WHO opinion should be weighted above that of other organizations. On the contrary, there is evidence it is undue, as the majority of WHO regional offices, who can set their own independent policies, have chosen to give the main body's opinion no weight or recommendation in there HIV prevention plans. It is not recommended by WHO regional offices for most regions and should be weighted accordingly. This argument has already been made, and I restate it.Gsonnenf (talk) 08:04, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Are you able to cite any reliable sources in support of that claim? Jakew (talk) 09:09, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

arbitrary break 1

The WHO is a relatively small medical association and division of the UN. The UN itself is is a small political body (relative to national governments) used primarily for diplomacy. The WHO (budget: ~$842 Million - 2003) is much smaller than organizations such as the CDC (budget: $8.8 Billion - 2008). Their are many other medical associations with a much broader base such as the AMA with 215,000 members or BMA with 191,000 members. Because WHO is a relatively small organization, it's opinion as our articles lead HIV opinion is WP:UNDUE.

We have shown that the WHO is a small organization within the context of other medical associations, and that its opinion on circumcision for HIV prevention is rejected by the most regional offices. As such inclusion in the lead is WP:UNDUE. Many authors agree with this, but we do not have consensus. Those disagreeing, please make a clear concision argument about why you believe the WHO opinion should be the most weighted opinion, so we can either find a compromise or go to RFC.Gsonnenf (talk) 08:04, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

The size of the organisation is of limited importance compared with their influence. WHO is an extremely influential organisation, as is evidenced by the fact that much of Sub-Saharan Africa has responded to their recommendations. Jakew (talk) 09:09, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

This is part of the problem, for me. Their influence is far beyond their numbers, or the depth of their scientific analysis, and skews impressions worldwide disproportionately. They have the ability to mobilize vast amounts of resources, when checking to see that the data is actually correct is left wanting in the eyes of some of the more scientifically minded. This does not prevent the WHO from running with it, and calling for action, when perhaps a different course could be more effective. There has not been too much of an attempt to see if real life outcomes match computer models. Sub-Saharan Africa has responded, with a 'WHO knows best' view for the most part, and is only now questioning the WHO's conclusions in their local press. Tftobin (talk) 17:22, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

The WHO has very limited influence in developed countries. The WHO main body has influence but not authority in Africa where governments are dysfunctional or non-existent. The WHO is comparable to the Bill and Melinda Gates association (Medical Budget: $800 million) in terms of influence in Africa. It has very low influence compared to government associations and large medical associations. Government associations such as the CDC have legal authority to enforce wherein the WHO must hope even there regional offices accept there recommendation which many do not. Gsonnenf (talk) 21:44, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

None of this personal opinion is relevant to the discussion at hand. By the way, a Google news search shows 2,940 references to the World Health Organization in the past day alone, 1,840,000 on Google scholar, 4,240,000 mentions on Google books, and 34,500,000 general Google hits. For an organization with "limited influence in developed countries", it sure gets an awful lot of attention in English language sources. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:02, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh, and by comparison, the Royal Dutch Medical Association gets 0 Google news hits in the past day, 952 Google scholar hits, 2,060 Google books hits, and 26,700 general Google hits. That's about 2,000 to 1 for the WHO vs. the RDMA/KNMG. If we're looking for a "small organization" that has "limited influence in developed countries" and WP:UNDUE attention paid to it in the lead, the Royal Dutch Medical Association would seem to be the winner hands-down. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:08, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

One difference is that the KNMG is an association of doctors. The WHO is not, necessarily. Popularity is no judge of anything. Are you implying that KNMG should be ignored, and WHO referenced, because WHO gets more attention on the web, even though they are not a medical organization? Would this make the WHO's opinions more correct? How is the results of Google search germane to the discussion? Would this make Britney Spears a better source? Tftobin (talk) 00:08, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Sorry Jayjg, google mining is not an argument accepted by Wikipedia. the WHO is very controversially and political and breeds lots of news. Similarly the westboro baptist church also breeds a great deal of news. I accept that the WHO is a very relevant medical association, but it has far from majority weight, especially on this particular policy. Budget comparisons are not personal opinions. Membership numbers are not personal opinions. Authority granted to medical associations are also not personal opinions. The KNMG view already passed RFC because it is inclusive of majority views such as from the CDC and AMA. This has already been discussed in the RFC, don't beat a dead horse.Gsonnenf (talk) 01:59, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

When it comes to fighting global diseases like HIV/AIDS, a significant difference between the World Health Organization and Britney Spears and/or the Westboro Baptist Church is that the World Health Organization is the most important international body concerned with international public health. In the future, please make more relevant analogies. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:22, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

At the end of the day, what matters in Wikipedia is the amount of weight given in reliable sources, and as Jayjg has indicated through search results, which give a very rough measure of that, the views of the WHO actually get given a great deal of weight. Having looked at Google Scholar, I see that 1,700,000 articles refer to the WHO. For perspective, compare with 959,000 for the AMA, 99,600 for the BMA, 5,740 for the RACP, and 952 for the KNMG. Claims that the WHO "has very low influence compared to government associations and large medical associations" appear to be untenable. Jakew (talk) 11:03, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

So, in essence, even though the WHO is not strictly speaking a medical group, because it is influential, its words should trump that of actual medical organizations comprised of doctors exclusively, because the WHO has weight with Google? Tftobin (talk) 16:59, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

No, Google's view is largely irrelevant. We can, however, use Google as a tool with which to get a rough idea of the degree to which sources refer to the World Health Organisation. That's what matters when assessing due weight: the weight given in sources. It doesn't particularly matter whether they are comprised of doctors, epidemiologists, biostatisticians, or other related professions. What matters when assessing due weight is how much weight they're given. Jakew (talk) 17:10, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Exactly. Google searches are a rough measure of how influential sources are. Contrary to the unsourced (and seemingly absurd) claims presented that the WHO "has very limited influence in developed countries", a basic analysis indicates that it is one of the (if not the) most influential medical source, at least in English language sources. And Gsonnenf, contrary to your claim that "The KNMG view already passed RFC because it is inclusive of majority views such as from the CDC and AMA", the RFC was actually fairly evenly split between those wishing to include it and those objecting to it. Moreover, when we examine the RFC for outside views, we find a 4 to 1 ratio against the KNMG statement. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:35, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

I have yet to see some sort of Wikipedia policy guideline that states tallying Google hits is an appropriate metric for determining the weight to allot to a source. If you can outline such relevant Wiki policy, please do so here. Therewillbefact (talk) 17:50, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

No-one has argued that "tallying Google hits is an appropriate metric for determining the weight to allot to a source". Rather, we were using the Google metric as a more objective way of refuting the handwaving argument that the WHO "has very limited influence in developed countries". Please review straw man. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:08, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry you feel my findings based on budget analysis, membership size and national granted authority are "hand wavy", as they are clearly not. The Google metrics shows nothing about WHO influence in developed countries compared to larger organizations like the CDC, BMA, or AMA. It does suggest they are one of many relevant sources, which we all agree on.Gsonnenf (talk) 21:28, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘Your arguments were mere assertions, and were not relevant to "influence in developed countries"; in a word, handwaving. Citations are a commonly used measure of influence; see Impact factor, Eigenfactor, and studies like this. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:36, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Making the HIV sentence clearer

For readers who are briefly skimming the lead (as readers often do) they might not notice the fact that the strong evidence for HIV reduction only applies to high-risk areas. This is an important point we need to ensure we clearly distinguish for our readers. As the paragraph currently states: "Strong evidence indicates that circumcision reduces the risk of HIV infection in heterosexual men by 38-66% in populations that are at high risk,[12] and studies have concluded it is cost effective in sub-Saharan Africa." An important detail is currently buried in the middle of a 34 word-salad of a sentence.

I suggest we make this sentence clearer. Perhaps we can edit it to something along the lines of: "Strong evidence suggests that for high-risk areas, circumcision reduces the risk of HIV infection in heterosexual men by 38-66%,[12] and studies have concluded it is cost effective in sub-Saharan Africa." Therewillbefact (talk) 20:45, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I'm glad you've drawn my attention to this, because the "in populations that are at high risk" part appears to be original research. The cited source doesn't include that qualification. It says: "There is strong evidence that medical male circumcision reduces the acquisition of HIV by heterosexual men by between 38% and 66% over 24 months." Jakew (talk) 21:03, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm also glad that you've drawn attention to this as well, as now it allows for us to integrate the conflicting evidence that exists when we make the broad far-reaching claim that circumcision universally decreases HIV rates. I noticed that you've already gone ahead and changed the sentence without input from other editors (again) here. Citing this article alone places undue weight on a view held by the Cochrane HIV/AIDS Group in 2009. Why were you reluctant to integrate a view expressed by The Royal Dutch Medical Association (in this discussion: Talk:Circumcision#RfC:_how_should_the_lead_summarise_positions_of_medical_associations.3F), but eager to cite an opinion coming from the editorial base at the University of California, San Francisco? Additionally, you'll have to substantiate why you have chosen to ignore the conflicting evidence that shows there no clear evidence of HIV reduction among those circumcised in other areas, and the views expressed by medical associations across the globe that agree with this line of reasoning. Houston, we have a NPOV problem.

Consider this text, which states "the inclusion of circumcision in the health policy of developed countries will require further investigation". Or this text, which argues that using the sub-saharan trials "exaggerate the relevance of the African random-controlled trials findings to [Australia's HIV epidemic]". The text additionally states" "That the relationship between circumcision and transmission of HIV is at the very least unclear is illustrated by the fact that the US combines a high prevalence of STDs and HIV infections with a high percentage of routine circumcisions. The Dutch situation is precisely the reverse: a low prevalence of HIV/AIDS combined with a relatively low number of circumcisions. As such, behavioural factors appear to play a far more important role than whether or not one has a foreskin." This source also states that there is a "lack of unanimous consent on the real usefulness of protective circumcision, even if several studies have recently demonstrated the protecting role of male circumcision against HIV infection." There is zero content in the lead discussing this, although almost a quarter of it is dedicated to HIV.

Let's take a look at the first sentence of the lead in Circumcision and HIV for further context: "Over forty epidemiological studies have been conducted to investigate the relationship between male circumcision and HIV infection.[1] Reviews of these studies have reached differing conclusions about whether circumcision could be used as a prevention method against HIV.[2][3][4][5]" Sorry Jakew, but your edit does not seem like a sustainable one, with its current ambiguity. There is a lot to address in terms of reconciling this edit with the amount of conflicting evidence arguing the contrary. We will need to draw attention to the conflicting evidence that runs contrary to this edit if we are to keep it in its current form. Thank you again for drawing attention to this. Therewillbefact (talk) 00:00, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

You seem mostly to be raising points that have already been discussed, so rather than wasting further time on them I direct you to those discussions (one, in which you participated heavily, is here). The newer sources you seem to be misinterpreting; for example the sentence you quote from PMID 20844437 does not consider whether circumcision reduces the risk in developed countries but whether circumcision should be promoted there for that reason. There is scientific consensus that circumcision reduces the risk of female-to-male HIV transmission, but there is no consensus that it should be promoted everywhere. The reason for this is simple: a relative risk reduction of 60% or so translates to a much larger absolute risk reduction in countries with a high lifetime risk of HIV than those where it is low. Consequently the benefits may clearly outweigh the risks in one situation, but in another the relationship may be less clear. Jakew (talk) 10:01, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

The discourse we've had earlier applied to HIV reduction particularly in sub-saharan countries - not universal HIV reduction rates. Applying our previous discussion to this new issue will not hold very much water, as the rhetoric has dramatically changed in the lead. You also stopped responding to me in the link you provided, we did not even finish our discussion...

You additionally did not address my last paragraph citing Circumcision and HIV, please reread the first two sentences of this lead and let's reconcile it with the current narrative of Circumcision, which only mentions the "strong evidence" of circumcision as HIV reducing. I assure you I was not "raising points that have already been discussed" by mentioning this. Please refrain from pigeonholing my input like you have going forward, especially if you aren't even going to address it. Therewillbefact (talk) 16:09, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree that the lead of circumcision and HIV needs to be updated. Jakew (talk) 16:18, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Again, you are picking and choosing which comments of mine to address. I've drawn attention to the fact that you didn't bother to finish our discussion to the link you provided, and it conveniently fell by the wayside with your next comment. Beyond that, we need to acknowledge that the editorial base at the University of California, San Francisco interpreted evidence gathered from three trials in sub-saharan Africa and applied them universally. The problems with doing this should be intuitive. I am having trouble understanding how data gathered from sub-Saharan Africa (with their own sexual behavior and culture) can accurately be applied to the rest of the world. This is a perplexing extrapolation of data, and one we will need to address if we are to summarize this view.

We additionally draw no attention to the ethical concerns that remain with respect to implementing the circumcision campaigns in the paragraph. Please see this text for more. Therewillbefact (talk) 17:15, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

What do you mean when you state "...we need to acknowledge that the editorial base at the University of California, San Francisco interpreted evidence gathered from three trials in sub-saharan Africa and applied them universally. The problems with doing this should be intuitive. I am having trouble understanding..." etc. Are you expressing some sort of personal issue or concern, or is there some peer-reviewed paper I can read about this? Jayjg ^(talk) 22:47, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Ethical concerns inhere in almost all medical issues, why should it be singled out here? The ethical concerns on circumcision seem to revolve around rights of children (hence, irrelevant for adult men seeking circumcision) and those that basically frown on anyone having free will to do with their body as they see fit (plenty of those around, too). Neither of which are unique to this topic, and it is anyway addressed since the controversy is already mentioned in the lead. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 18:50, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree there are ethical issues with this as well that are not given proper weight in the lead. Though, it would be off topic for this thread. In the next week or two lets start a thread to discuss how we can give ethical considerations proper weight in the lead as the current lead violates WP:UNDUE.Gsonnenf (talk) 04:27, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

I feel strongly that we should return the "in high risk heterosexual males" as we specifically have review articles which state there is insufficient evidence for those at low risk or women or MSM. Internet is to poor right now for me to dig up the refs but I read through them all a while ago. --Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:21, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

The sentence says: "Strong evidence indicates that circumcision reduces the risk of HIV infection in heterosexual men by 38-66%..." Isn't that sufficient to exclude women or MSM? As noted above, the cited source doesn't limit the scope to only high-risk heterosexual men. Also, there seems to be general consensus that it does reduce the risk of infection in heterosexual men; however, there's active debate over whether it should be promoted in developed countries due to the relatively low prevalence of HIV and hence smaller potential for benefit. As far as I can determine from the abstract, the paper cited in the article re developed countries is discussing the latter issue. I think we need to be careful not to mistake the latter for debate about the former. Jakew (talk) 15:47, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, as I noted earlier the phrase "heterosexual men" by definition excludes "women" and MSM, and there's no point in redundancy in the lede. Also, the sources don't restrict the risk-reduction to "high-risk" men; as you point out, the question here is not whether it reduces the risk for all heterosexual men, but rather whether it's worthwhile promoting circumcision for low-risk heterosexual men. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:06, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

This ref http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20844437 states "Male circumcision will likely play an important role in HIV/STI prevention programs in Africa; the inclusion of circumcision in the health policy of developed countries will require further investigation.". Thus we either need to state "high risk" or "in Africa". Does not matter to me. But what we have now is not really accurate as evidence does not support its use generally for the heterosexual population. We can add this ref to the text in question maybe... Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:27, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

As I indicated above, "the inclusion of circumcision in the health policy" is a statement about whether circumcision should be used/promoted, not whether it reduces the risk. The statement in the article is about whether it reduces the risk. Jakew (talk) 11:31, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

The assertion in the lead should reflect the article. Including "high risk" or "Africa" gives a more accurate summary of the source.Gsonnenf (talk) 08:47, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Please quote the relevant passages of the source that support your claim that such terms are needed to accurately reflect it. Given that the term "high risk" doesn't appear in the abstract, and "Africa" appears only in the "Background" (and in references to the country, South Africa), I think you might find that challenging. Jakew (talk) 09:13, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Another good source to look at is from the American Urological association. They do recognize the studies and present it as an option for health benefit, which we are not disputing but state, "...the results of studies in African nations may not necessarily be extrapolated to men in the United States at risk for HIV infection...". [2]Gsonnenf (talk) 02:47, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Which, considering the fact that the main at-risk populations in the US are IV drug users and gay men, isn't surprising. Jakew (talk) 09:17, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

For the time being, I would at least like to the see the sentence prefixed by the organizational entity that stated the information. I propose: "According to the Cochrane Group, strong evidence indicates (...)" Therewillbefact (talk) 03:31, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

We usually avoid excessive attribution, because it can create the impression that a view is held by only a small minority. For example, we wouldn't say, "according to John Smith, hypertension can raise the risk of heart attacks or strokes". Nor would we say "According to Fred Bloggs, athlete's foot is a fungal infection". These are established facts, and so we assert them. Jakew (talk) 09:08, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

[unindenting] It seems like we may need to revive the discussion we had here, where we discussed the omission of the sentence that stated:

• "Whether it is of benefit for women is disputed[12][13] and whether it is of benefit in developed countries and among men who have sex with men is undetermined.[14][15][16]"

If you read jayjg's response to my inquiry dated 04:59, 27 January 2012, you will notice that he said this sentence became unnecessary because the high-risk qualifier in the HIV sentence made it unnecessary. To avoid poorly paraphrasing him, I will provide what he stated in his words:

• "It was a tautology/redundant; the lede already states it reduces the risk in heterosexual men in populations that are at high risk."

Now that we've eliminated the high-risk qualifier, it seems like we may need to reinstate the part of the ommitted sentence that stated "whether it is of benefit in developed countries is undetermined". FactoidDroid (talk) 17:32, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

medical summary in lead

On 2/9 Jakew removed the medical summary we had in our lead. He has replaced it with " Most medical associations recommend neither universal circumcision nor a prohibition against the practice." This has been reverted many times and there is currently an ongoing RFC about it but there is clearly no consensus so far to change it. Avi just put it back saying it is the original summary statement and that KNMG statement never had consensus. Avi also tried to say I just coined it on 2/3 and added it to the article then. Truth is it's been there for about 7 months when it replaced our old summary from the AMA. I explained to Avi while reverting him that my addition was a duplicate into the top of the medical summaries section (which has been reverted on the grounds that it was NPOV???) Anywho Jakew just removed the KNMG summary in favor of his own (which NEVER gained consensus) stating "regardless of anything else, we do not need to duplicate sentences". Wow. First please point out the duplicate sentence Jakew and secondly please self revert your medical summary that clearly has no consensus. Garycompugeek (talk) 20:22, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Here is a link to your version of the text, Gary. As you will see, the last two sentences of the third paragraph read: "According to the Royal Dutch Medical Association (2010), no professional association of physicians currently recommends routine circumcision.[16] Some bodies have discussed under what circumstances circumcision is ethical.[17][18]" The fourth paragraph contains those two sentences as well. This is the duplication to which I referred.

As for the sentence in question, it was added by LizardWizard, in July 2011, interestingly with no apparent consensus at the time. I am quite happy to remove both sentences, or to include both, as compromises while discussion continues. It is unreasonable, however, to ask me to violate NPOV by replacing the neutral summary with the non-neutral one. Jakew (talk) 20:41, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Unacceptable Jake. The KNMG summary was fine for over half a year then because you decide it's NPOV we must cater to you. I'm tired of your delusions of ownership Jake. The rfc clearly demonstrates there is no consensus for your change. Garycompugeek (talk) 00:27, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Gary, the RFC clearly shows no consensus for LizardWizard's addition, and your statement I'm tired of your delusions of ownership Jake is highly uncivil. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:11, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

It is incredible that Avi a WP:Bureaucrat and Jayjg an WP:Administrator are maintaining that the KNMG medical summary never had consensus even though the article history cleary shows the real story. Garycompugeek (talk) 14:44, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't see what your comment has to do with article content. Please review WP:NPA and WP:TPYES. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:14, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I believe what Garycompugeek is saying, is that if you go into the history, there was consensus for the KNMG medical summary. Since whether or not to put the KNMG medical summary is being discussed above, it is germane to article content. If there was consensus, there was consensus. If there was not, there was not. A look in the history should make it unambiguous for everyone. Tftobin (talk) 00:09, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Correct Tom. My comment, Jayjg, is addressing the article's lead, and the fact that you and Avi are pretending Jake's removal of KNMG's medical summary and replacing it with his own had consensus. I bring attention to your stations because the wikipedia community holds you to a higher standard than edit warring and ignoring policy. Garycompugeek (talk) 19:15, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘These comments appear to be about editors (e.g. "you and Avi are pretending Jake's removal" etc.). Per WP:NPA and WP:TPYES, "Comment on content, not on the contributor." Jayjg ^(talk) 20:01, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

This is about the content. He stated that authors are changing content as if there was consensus when there was not consensus which is vital to this discussion. Please stop misapplying wiki rules.Gsonnenf (talk) 04:12, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

"you and Avi are pretending Jake's removal" is a comment about editors, not content. Please make more accurate talk page comments. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:56, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

POV Tag

JakeW has removed this tag despite the prior archived thread showing no consensus to remove it and clear evidence that authors apposed to the tag involved in NPOV allegations. There is obvious POV dispute going on here, as the page has been protected several times over POV edit warring. There are also active RFCs. This tag should not have been removed and needs to be re-added.Gsonnenf (talk) 03:52, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Tags are not supposed to be Scarlet Letters. Rather, they are meant to alert editors to problems so they can be fixed. This article has plenty of attention now from lots of editors, though no actual apparent problems. Thus there is no policy-based reason to add a tag. Jayjg ^(talk) 05:15, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Please see the following policy on when to remove the tag:

When to remove:

This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:

1. No discussion about neutrality issues was started on this article's talk page.

2. Discussion about neutrality issues is dormant.

3. There is consensus in the discussion that the problems have been resolved.

It would be fine and a benefit to this article to attract more editors. There is POV dispute that you are involved in. If you did not feel there were problems, you would not be reverting content and participating in RFC.Gsonnenf (talk) 05:58, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

The usage notes on the tag page are not "policy". The page itself says "Place this template on an article when you have identified a serious issue of balance and the lack of a WP:Neutral point of view, and you wish to attract editors with different viewpoints to the article." Since no serious issues of any sort have been identified – and in fact, very few issues of even the most trivial nature have been identified – and since this page has already had 19 different editors comment in the RFC above, which already served to bring the attention of editors to the article, it is clear that the article has the attention of enough editors, and that the tag was spuriously or mistakenly applied. Jayjg ^(talk) 07:22, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

(unindent) Let's take a moment to review the events surrounding the tag, shall we?

• According to the instructions at {{POV}}, "The editor placing this template in an article should promptly begin a discussion on the article's talk page. In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant, then this tag may be removed by any editor." The editor who placed the tag was Gsonnenf (talk · contribs), in this edit dated 07:19, January 20, 2012. Gsonnenf did not begin a discussion about it. After waiting a generous period of roughly a week, I removed the tag, in complete accordance with the material quoted by Gsonnenf above.
• Gsonnenf promptly reverted, and still failed to open a discussion. Eventually, in order to find out the justification for the tag, I opened a discussion. In that discussion, multiple editors asked Gsonnenf to "explain on the article's talk page why you are adding this tag, identifying specific issues that are actionable within Wikipedia's content policies" (again quoting from {{POV}}), but no such specific, actionable issues were ever enumerated.
• At 04:15, February 16, 2012‎, the discussion about the tag was archived due to inactivity. (As pointed out above, this wasn't even opened in accordance with {{POV}}, but it was the closest thing we ever had to the "discussion" referred to in the removal instructions).

Clearly, therefore, the tag could have been removed in accordance with either (1) (since Gsonnenf never created any discussion about it), or (2) (since the only discussion ever created was sufficiently dormant to have been automatically archived). Jakew (talk) 09:49, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Gsonnenf made a point the whole talk page is dispute about content. people never respond to his points. they archive the page while its active. Robert B19 (talk) 19:06, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

That's completely irrelevant, though. As explained previously, it is normal for talk pages to contain disputes, and normal for editors to invoke Wikipedia policies in these discussions. But that doesn't mean that most pages in Wikipedia should be permanently tagged. Tags are supposed to be temporary, and they are there as a last resort to gather additional attention to resolve a specific issue (or list of issues). So a tag without an accompanying list of issues serves no purpose. Jakew (talk) 19:16, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

While the article still needs work I do not think this tag is needed. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:33, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Jakew that articles usually have discussion about content on the talk page. I find that such discussion very often revolves around NPOV issues. However, I agree that articles generally should not have tags most of the time. This is one of the most-often-viewed pages on Wikipedia, and has been very extensively discussed and edited. Editors may disagree about content, but that in itself isn't enough reason for having a tag. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 00:30, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Apparently JakeW still doesn't understand that you DO NOT NEED TO START A DISCUSSION IF THERE ARE ACTIVE NPOV DISPUTES on the page. This is an article with very active POV discussions that are changing the page exceptionally often. When the content of the articles becomes stable, and the disputes are shot down by consensus, then the tag should be removed. There have been many people suspected of intentional bias, and the best way to solve this is to involve more neutral authors.Gsonnenf (talk) 06:44, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, you do need to start a discussion whether or not other discussions are active. Jakew (talk) 09:12, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Gsonnenf, most editors in this thread (not just Jakew) have stated that the tag does not belong. Also, your comment included a statement or statements about editors, not article content (specifically "JakeW still doesn't understand"). Per WP:NPA and WP:TPYES, "Comment on content, not on the contributor." Jayjg ^(talk) 13:15, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Many editors supported this tag in the archive discussion from last week. As soon as it was archived, the tag was removed. I believe we know the arguments of both camps. Let's see how things play out and we'll goto the NPOV board to get advice on the tag.Gsonnenf (talk) 08:39, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

The discussion from last week ended with unanswered questions regarding exactly what the tag referred to. This discussion is more focused, and has produced a fairly clear result. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:30, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Many of us don't agee that the discussion ended. Robert B19 (talk) 21:34, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

I answered the question to the satisfaction of several editors. You didn't like the answer so you kept asking the same question until I stopped responding to it.Gsonnenf (talk) 22:13, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

If you could link to a diff of your answer, I'm sure it would be appreciated. Jakew (talk) 22:15, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

There were 3 topics concerning WP:UNDUE or WP:NPOV. Here is the diffs. [3]. Editors were told to discuss the issue under the appropriate heading. The content of this article has been under full protection due to NPOV edit warring. Now, there are two WP:UNDUE discussions going on, one with an RFC. The other will likely go to RFC. Gsonnenf (talk) 23:04, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

As is quite obvious, the discussion ended, and days after it ended was automatically archived. The reason we know it ended was that no-one commented in the thread for days. As is also quote obvious, the thread ended with an unanswered request from me. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:33, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

I see. So when you say you "answered the question", what you mean is that you failed to answer the question, but instead answered a completely different question, one which hadn't actually been asked. Jakew (talk) 09:10, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

cite error

This info is missing from the article: <ref name="CDC-2008">{{Cite web|title=Male Circumcision and Risk for HIV Transmission and Other Health Conditions: Implications for the United States |publisher=Centers for Disease Control and Prevention |date=7 February 2008 |url=http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/factsheets/circumcision.htm |accessdate=15 July 2011}}</ref> (I took this from an earlier version. Maybe not the most recent with this information.) Currently the article says "cite error..." in red in the "notes" section. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 23:53, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Please fix ref 80, which has a missing citation. The reference, as supplied by Coppertwig above, is: <ref name="CDC-2008">{{Cite web|title=Male Circumcision and Risk for HIV Transmission and Other Health Conditions: Implications for the United States |publisher=Centers for Disease Control and Prevention |date=7 February 2008 |url=http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/factsheets/circumcision.htm |accessdate=15 July 2011}}</ref> Jakew (talk) 16:40, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

• Done -- Avi (talk) 17:19, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Wasting time

Please stop saying stop wasting our time posting to this talk page. This is an article talk page, everyone is free to comment. No one is forced to read other editors comments. If you could care less about the issue an editor is talking or you feel it has been beaten to death then ignore it but making disparaging comments like "stop wasting our time" is unproductive to this talk page and completely contrary to the spirit of the wiki. Garycompugeek (talk) 14:31, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

You mean like this? --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 16:31, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps he may mean edits like this. Therewillbefact (talk) 18:31, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't think Gary would suggest that this applied only to other editors, not himself. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:07, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Therewillbefact is right, though: Gary isn't the only editor who is guilty of having made this sort of remark. I've done so too, and I'm sure that I've employed such language more often than I should have. Jakew (talk) 20:30, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

I think the core issue here that whilst no one is forced to read all the comments, topics or discussions that have been had multiple times in the past, and have always resulted in the same consensus, do not need to be perennially rehashed. Consensus does change, and testing it every now and then is reasonable, but too often would not be. A nicer way should be found to phrase it that "wasting time," I agree. How about "your suggestion to review this discussion is inefficient in maintaining this article as it has been rejected in the recent past". -- Avi (talk) 18:42, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

That is certainly much nicer way to put it Avi. Garycompugeek (talk) 19:02, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I have struck out my uncivil comment but I would like to explain it taken in context. I was asking a question to Jake when Jayjg replied with three summerizing questions. This was the second one.

Jayjg wrote "Its use unduly weights the opinion of one relatively small medical association, that of the KNMG."

I replied with "They are over 53,000 strong and would not be impressed by your assessment of them and all other major medical associations in the Netherlands also signed and endorsed this document. Please bring sources to back up your statements or stop wasting our time with your on OR/POV." Without a source Jayjg's assertion is completely WP:OR and not relevant. He later went on to endorse the opinion of one professor not even in the medical field for their medical summary which seems to be a complete flip flop in my book. Regardless I was wrong and should not have said that and I apologize Jayjg. Garycompugeek (talk) 18:58, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

We've all made a few or many borderline comments, but let's agree to try to stop the following:

1. Accusing others of wasting their time.
2. Asserting there is consensus, unless you can demonstrate consensus on the topic, this includes the past month or so of archived threads.(Many editors are not full time editors and may go missing for weeks at a time [ such as doc james who is on holiday currently] ).
3. Assuming there is consensus on debates early. Editors should have a week or two to comment.
4. Assuming there is consensus because you had the last word. Declared yourself winner if no one responded and waiting for archive is not consensus.
5. Reduce the WP:FILIBUSTERS in non-consensus debates. This will be difficult. We're going to need to get better at going to RFC or finding compromise when no new useful information is being presented.

We are also going to have to find a better way to track non-consensus threads. Many threads are archived because the conversation was stale after 4 short days, they are later repeated. These repeats are legitimate. Being the last person to comment, revert or add does not mean the change is legitimate. If other authors rather go back to the talk page, instead of edit war, that is a good thing. I think we can find a better way though. It would be good if we could keep non-consensus threads active, or perhaps keep a record, a summary of sort so that past data does not get lost, and the same debate doesn't keep taking place.Gsonnenf (talk) 22:02, 29 February 2012 (UTC)