Talk:Cow-calf

Slugs

Please try to keep information on slugs to only the bare minimum neccessary to differentiate cow-calf sets from mother-slug sets. Slugs have their own article, and slug information should be placed there, not here. Wuhwuzdat (talk) 14:48, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Cow-calf/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Ealdgyth (talk · contribs) 16:57, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

I'll get to this in the next few days. Ealdgyth (talk) 16:57, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Ealdgyth:, as it's been a week could you let me know when you'll be able to review this? Trainsandotherthings (talk) 14:14, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Tonight or tomorrow... husband was unexpectedly home for five days ... so I'm a bit behind. Ealdgyth (talk) 16:56, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Okay, of course real life comes first, no worries. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 17:18, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

• Spot-checks:
  • "In a cow-calf set, the cow referred to the locomotive equipped with a cab, while calves lacked a cab. Cow-calf sets with two calves are known as "herds"; the only example of these were two TR3 series sets ordered by the Chesapeake and Ohio Railway." is sourced to this source on page 23 which supports part of the second sentence - "the only example of these were two TR3 series sets", but the source does not mention the Chesapeake and Ohio railway nor does it support the first sentence at all.
    • The cow having a cab and the calf lacking one is supported by page 10 of Foster, which I have added as a footnote. Marre supports the two three-unit sets being purchased by the C&O, and I have added it as a second footnote for the second sentence. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 16:41, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
  • "The cow, calf, and herd designations were nicknames and not official." is sourced to this source pp. 33-36 which supports the "The cow, calf, and herd designations were nicknames" part but not strictly speaking the "not official part"
    • I think this is really semantics, as by definition a nickname is not official, but I removed "and not official" just the same. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 16:41, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
  • "Most American examples were replaced by road switcher locomotives, which could both handle switching duties and haul mainline trains." is sourced to this source p. 10 which supports the first phrase "Most American examples were replaced by road switcher locomotives" but the second part isn't supported on this page.
    • The second part is a brief definition of what a road switcher is. I just removed it, I guess readers can click the link if they want to know what a road switcher is. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 16:41, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
• I randomly googled three phrases and only turned up Wikipedia mirrors. Earwig's tool shows no sign of copyright violation.

Let's get these taken care of before I go on to the prose/etc review. When these are dealt with, I'll do another quick spot check. I don't think it's a willful thing - just a bit of stuff getting moved from citations that previously supported it. Shouldn't be a big deal to fix. Ealdgyth (talk) 15:59, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

Looks good - I am filling troughs at the moment, but I'll do a quick check when I'm done and get on to the rest of the review in an hour or so at most.... I don't anticipate many issues... Ealdgyth (talk) 16:44, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

• Last spot check:
  • "The Union Pacific Railroad made use of cow-calf sets as helpers on a steep grade near Kelso, California, until 1959, when the use of multiple-unit train control made them obsolete." is sourced to this source which supports the information.
• Lead:
  • "and are connected with MU cables and brake lines" you've linked to "MU" but suggest a change to "MU cables" as the link set and perhaps a short explanation for the non-specialist?
    • I simplified this by rewriting as "The two are coupled together (either with regular couplers or a semi-permanent drawbar) and equipped with multiple unit train control so that both locomotives can be operated from the single cab." Let me know if you have further suggestions; as someone who's been train obsessed since I was a kid this can be a blind spot for me. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 18:19, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
  • "Cows are analogous to A units and calves to B unit road locomotives. Both have prime movers." No clue what this is supposed to mean? Suggest some sort of short explanation and a link for "prime mover" with an explanation?
    • I rewrote the first sentence as "Cows are analogous to A units (locomotives with a cab) and calves to B unit (powered locomotives without a cab) road locomotives." A prime mover is terminology for the engine(s) in a locomotive. I rewrote the second sentence as "The cow and calf are both equipped with prime movers for propulsion." but am not opposed to simply saying that both are equipped with engines. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 18:19, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
  • consistency - first paragraph has "A cow is equipped" but here in the second paragraph we have "the Cow-calf sets" and "with the Cow (or cabled unit)"? Either capitalize or decapitalize consistently.
    • I missed that when I rewrote much of the article... the lead was the part I changed the least. Cow-calf is not a proper noun and should not be capitalized, and I have made this consistent throughout the article. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 18:19, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
  • Per MOS:LEAD, information in the lead should be present in the article body - but "The two are coupled together (either with regular couplers or a semi-permanent drawbar) and are connected with MU cables and brake lines so that both locomotive units can be operated from the single cab." is not in the article body.
    • I've rewritten the offending sentence and simplified it, and tried to make sure it matches what's in the body. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 18:19, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
• Distinctions:
  • Can we get a quick explanation here for the technical terms "slugs" and "B units" in "Cow-calf sets are similar to slugs and especially B units."?
    • I've added more information, let me know if it's still unclear. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 18:19, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

I've put the article on hold for seven days to allow folks to address the issues I've brought up. Feel free to contact me on my talk page, or here with any concerns, and let me know one of those places when the issues have been addressed. If I may suggest that you strike out, check mark, or otherwise mark the items I've detailed, that will make it possible for me to see what's been addressed, and you can keep track of what's been done and what still needs to be worked on. Ealdgyth (talk) 17:20, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

Changes look good, passing this now. Ealdgyth (talk) 19:45, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cielquiparle (talk) 14:10, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that trains can be pulled by cows? This might make a good quirky hook.^(?)Source: Schafer, Mike (1998). Vintage diesel locomotives. Osceola, WI: Motorbooks International. p. 23.
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Agua Fria Union High School District
  • Comment: Open to alternate wordings such as "that trains can be pulled by cattle?"

Improved to Good Article status by Trainsandotherthings (talk). Self-nominated at 02:13, 8 February 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Cow-calf; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• GA status is new enough, and article is long enough. Clear, neutral, adequately sourced, no copyvio or obvious issues with close paraphrasing or plagiarism. QPQ done. This is a fun, interesting hook. My only issue is that the hook needs to be cited in-line - a citation needs to be placed directly after the sentence in which the fact appears. Per WP:DYK, "Citations at the end of the paragraph are not sufficient. This rule applies even when a citation would not be required for the purposes of the article." Can you please cite the hook in line, Trainsandotherthings (talk)? Then I can approve it for DYK. Topshelver (talk) 17:58, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

  Almost every single sentence in the history section, where the "cow" nickname is cited and identified, has an inline citation, including the one in question, so I'm not sure what you're asking. The hook is supported by In a cow-calf set, the cow referred to the locomotive equipped with a cab, while calves lacked a cab. which is directly cited to Foster's A Field Guide to Trains of North America. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 18:05, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

I guess I'm wondering if you can cite the first sentence in the article, where cow-calf is first defined. There is a citation at the end of that first paragraph; I'd want to see a citation at the end of that first sentence as well. I'm probably being persnickety, but I've been dinged by DYK administrators over such details. Topshelver (talk) 20:51, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

This seems like excessive and pointless bureaucracy to me, considering the term is defined in the history section as I said above, but I've added another inline cite just the same. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 21:40, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Good to go. Topshelver (talk) 14:11, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Article should be moved to Cow-calf (rail transport)

This article is strictly about rail transport, and should be moved to Cow-calf (rail transport) and the current title should redirect to Cow–calf operation. Aitraintheeditorandgamer (talk) 06:48, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Agreed on the first part, but Cow-calf should then be a disambiguation, not a redirect. Unless you can show that another use has primacy under the simple name (i.e. not as "Cow–calf operation"). Andy Dingley (talk) 07:31, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

No, it shouldn't. Just because you have a personal opinion doesn't mean anything. You need to present evidence to back up your belief. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 01:09, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't have any opinions on the article title, but should Cow–calf with an en dash exist since the cattle article's name Cow–calf operation uses an en dash? And if so, which page should it redirect to? The reason why I ask is because the regular hyphen name exists as a redirect for the cattle article, i.e. Cow-calf operation. Fork99 (talk) 01:21, 28 August 2023 (UTC)