Talk:Deaf culture
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[edit] Deafness article
Please join in the discussion at this location. Photouploaded (talk) 16:08, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Request for assistance merging content
The second half of the Deafness article had a great deal of content related to Deaf culture. Deaf culture was originally quite short, but with the content merged in, it has grown to a substantial size. Suggestions for how best to organize the information would be appreciated. Photouploaded (talk) 16:42, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Terminology
Could someone please explain how the 'Terminology' section contradicts itself as the tag says? I don't really see a problem with it. If someone could point this out I would be happy to help correct it! •Felix• T 18:02, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
I removed the tag, and, when I have confirmed the details, I am going to be fixing the details and citations. Sculleywr (talk) 21:07, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Cultural centers
Shouldn't there be a mention of the Sanderson Community Center of the Deaf located near Salt Lake City, UT (in Taylorsville, I believe)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Micahbrwn (talk • contribs)
[edit] Cochlear implants
I'm surprised the controversy over cochlear implants gets no mention on this page. --Scottandrewhutchins (talk) 03:32, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
- Thats because there is no controversy. Deafness is a handicap. Thats like saying there is a controversy over artificial limbs because it destroys amputee culture. Alyeska (talk) 22:15, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
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- Obviously, Alyeska, you don't agree with the view that Deafness is a culture. There is a big difference between a cochlear implant and an artificial limb. Namely in that most people who have children with cochlear implants don't teach their children sign language or expose them to Deaf Culture or the Deaf Community. musicalmeg20 (talk) 23:39, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
That is perhaps the most ignorant thing ive heard in quite a while. And it is the very core over the controversy. That people like yourself, deaf or otherwise, think its a bad thing to hear.
It is not. Nor should deaf people be considered inferior outside of the physical inability to hear and how that inability affects their life in a world designed for the hearing. There is no difference in the comparison of disabilities in relation to this controversy. An artificial limb is no different than artificial hearing. And what would be hilarious, if not soo disgustingly sad, is that those like yourself think its not the same. That if a group of disabled people without limbs thought it was "ruining their culture" to use limbs, or that they denied their children limbs, you would think it was "bad". Wow, now perhaps you might see why this "deaf culture" idiocy is so damn ignorant. 121.215.64.69 (talk) 11:25, 23 March 2009 (UTC) Harlequin
- The difference, whoever you are, is that culturally Deaf people share a language. They are partially isolated from the larger culture by the inability to hear the language used by the larger culture, and so they connect with others who share their signed language. There is also a long tradition of residential schools for the deaf, where students stay at the school for long periods of time, further emphasizing their connections to each other while further isolating them from the larger culture. Amputees have no such communication barriers, and so there is no isolated "amputee culture" to disrupt.
- A disability that affects verbal communication has far greater ramifications than one that affects mobility or dexterity, when it comes to participating in society. You can disagree with Deaf people who argue against cochlear implants on cultural grounds, but it is ignorant to claim an equivalency with other non-communicative disabilities. Powers T 11:48, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Hearing is one of the 5 primary senses. It is a critical sense that is very important for survival. The modern world makes it possible to live without the ability to hear, but it is still a dangerous world. The inability to hear is a disability pure and simple. Sign language allows deaf and hearing impaired to compensate, but it does not allow them to overcome. They are still fundamentally disabled and missing one of the 5 senses. It is a handicap. Do people take pride in being blind? Do people take pride in having no sense of taste? Pride in no sense of smell? There is no Blind Culture (who do happen to have their own language). It is good to see people who can overcome their disability and succeed in life, and there is pride in that. But having pride in the disability itself is just mystifying to me. Be proud of your accomplishments and the culture that it inspires, but do not show ignorant pride in your disability, and do not insult those who overcome their disability through receiving implants. They have overcome their disability through another method and they deserve just as much respect. Alyeska (talk) 16:33, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- Blind people do not have a separate language. Braille, if that's what you're thinking of, is a system of writing that can be used to transliterate English or a number of other languages. It's more of a font than a separate language -- thus why there is no "blind culture" separate from the larger culture. As I pointed out, culturally Deaf people do have a separate language, do often spend a lot of time isolated from hearing people, and therefore do have a unique culture. I happen to agree with you that criticizing implantees on such grounds is, in many ways, cruel and unnecessary, and I don't believe in the preservation of individual cultures just for the sake of preservation, but to deny that Deaf people have formed a separate subculture in numerous societies (not just the U.S.) is willful ignorance of an astounding degree. Powers T 13:36, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
- Subculture is not the same thing as culture. People who live in Montana have a different culture than those in New York by your same reasoning. They are separated, speak different dialects, etc. But to use the subculture as a context to berate others and as justification to selectively have deaf children is insulting. Alyeska (talk) 17:40, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
- ASL is not a dialect of English. I don't know how much clearer I can be. Powers T 22:32, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
- I don't care. I don't know how much clearer I can be. Alyeska (talk) 02:39, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
- Considerably. It certainly seemed as if you were comparing the differences between the dialect of English spoken in Montana with the dialect spoken in New York to the differences between ASL and English. If you were not doing so, why did you bring it up? Powers T 12:42, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
- Culture is not dependent on a specific language. Culture comes from many areas. So does subculture. My point is that deaf people do not live in a different culture unless they came from another nation with a fundamentally different culture. What deaf people have is a subculture that can develop from their language. And something you need to consider, deaf people should also be capable of communicating in English (through written form). So deaf people are of a multilingual environment more then anything else. The uniqueness of their subculture comes from their need to communicate through gestures, and this exists with any sign language they know. So their subculture is a result of their handicap, not their language itself. Alyeska (talk) 14:42, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
- It can't solely be the result of their lack of hearing. There are numerous people with normal hearing in Deaf cultures -- primarily interpreters and CODAs, whose members are fluent in sign language -- and plenty of deaf people who have no connection to Deaf culture. Also, there is more than one Deaf culture in the world, usually delimited by the sign language used. Certainly, most any Deaf culture is part of and influenced by the larger surrounding culture, but I don't see how that invalidates their concerns. Powers T 17:34, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
- The culture arises from being deaf, but naturally those involved within the group also join the subculture. Like all other subculture groups work. Alyeska (talk) 05:36, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
- There's much more to it than that, I'm afraid. Otherwise, as you noted above, blind people would have their own culture like deaf people, and more deaf people would be a part of the culture. Deafness is part of it, for sure -- it certainly has a huge effect on most of the cultural norms -- but it's quite simply not the only factor. The isolation of many deaf people in residential schools for the deaf, and the use of a unique language, among other things, are also factors. Powers T 12:51, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
- The culture arises from being deaf, but naturally those involved within the group also join the subculture. Like all other subculture groups work. Alyeska (talk) 05:36, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
- It can't solely be the result of their lack of hearing. There are numerous people with normal hearing in Deaf cultures -- primarily interpreters and CODAs, whose members are fluent in sign language -- and plenty of deaf people who have no connection to Deaf culture. Also, there is more than one Deaf culture in the world, usually delimited by the sign language used. Certainly, most any Deaf culture is part of and influenced by the larger surrounding culture, but I don't see how that invalidates their concerns. Powers T 17:34, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
- Culture is not dependent on a specific language. Culture comes from many areas. So does subculture. My point is that deaf people do not live in a different culture unless they came from another nation with a fundamentally different culture. What deaf people have is a subculture that can develop from their language. And something you need to consider, deaf people should also be capable of communicating in English (through written form). So deaf people are of a multilingual environment more then anything else. The uniqueness of their subculture comes from their need to communicate through gestures, and this exists with any sign language they know. So their subculture is a result of their handicap, not their language itself. Alyeska (talk) 14:42, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
- Considerably. It certainly seemed as if you were comparing the differences between the dialect of English spoken in Montana with the dialect spoken in New York to the differences between ASL and English. If you were not doing so, why did you bring it up? Powers T 12:42, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
- I don't care. I don't know how much clearer I can be. Alyeska (talk) 02:39, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
- (I think we can skip back a few indents)I am talking sub culture here. Not culture. Blind people can very well have a subculture that is connected but not directly the same as the primary culture. Deafness is the root cause. People associated with those who are deaf become associated with the subculture. There is nothing intrinsically unique about the deaf subculture outside of it being an adaption from the deafness. Peculiar quirks were adapted in the process of sign language and a semi different culture emerged. They are still part of Western Culture and within the American culture (or whatever country they are from), but adaptations from learning to speak with their hands is the primary difference in their culture. The language itself is secondary. And as such those associated with people who are deaf become part of the deaf culture. Alyeska (talk) 18:43, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:NOR, how could that be any clearer, dammit, we don't care what YOU think, what SOURCES say is what we care about. You are not special, you are not a source. Snapdragonfly (talk) 05:24, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
- ASL is not a dialect of English. I don't know how much clearer I can be. Powers T 22:32, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
- Subculture is not the same thing as culture. People who live in Montana have a different culture than those in New York by your same reasoning. They are separated, speak different dialects, etc. But to use the subculture as a context to berate others and as justification to selectively have deaf children is insulting. Alyeska (talk) 17:40, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Norms
I'm curious about one of the bullet points in the Norms of American Deaf Culture section. Admitedly, I haven't had a lot of exposure to the culture, as it seems to be dying a slow death in my area, but the point about discussing music being rude seems a bit off to me. Is there a citation to back this up, or does this seem to be the case in other areas that I just am not aware of? Again, if I'm just ignorant, please educate me :) Deafgeek (talk) 19:34, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- I can see how discussing something which Deaf people can't access would be rude. Whether there's a citation for that or not I'm not sure. I haven't ever done it and had a Deaf person be offended, so I can't even speak from personal experience - but it seems reasonable. — Mike.lifeguard | @en.wb 20:30, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- This is insane, as is the phenomenon of deaf parents screening their embryoes to ensure a deaf child. Deafness is a serious handicap, and those parents should be jailed if they try to do such a horrible thing. How could you take the beauty of music away from your child? Or is it just that they are scared that their children will have rich experiences that they cannot even imagine??Ndriley97 (talk) 18:27, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
- Anyone who thinks deaf people don't listen to music doesn't know very many deaf people. :P Powers T 13:56, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Man... I'm not deaf yet (less than 20% impairment but will fail before I'm 40 based on family history), and even if I was 100% deaf I would never identify with this 'culture' crapola, but I do know the joy of being able to 'feel' my music. Gliktch (talk) 00:31, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Spanish language references
I removed these from the English article because they aren't useful here, but they might be in the Spanish version if someone has the expertise to place them.
- Gascón Ricao, A. y J.G. Storch de Gracia y Asensio (2004) Historia de la educación de los sordos en España y su influencia en Europa y América. Madrid : Editorial universitaria Ramón Areces, Colección "Por más señas".
- Herrera, V. Habilidad lingüística y fracaso lector en los estudiantes sordos.[1]
- Storch de Gracia y Asensio, J.G. (coord.)(2005), Estatuto jurídico de las lenguas de señas en el Derecho español (Aproximaciones), Madrid, Editorial universitaria Ramón Areces, Colección "Por más Señas, La Llave"
- Storch de Gracia y Asensio, J.G. (2005), "Las teorías de Harlan Lane sobre la identidad sorda. Oscuras remembranzas del nazismo en estado puro", accessible at Voces en el Silencio.
- Storch de Gracia y Asensio, J.G. (2005), "Comunidad, identidad y derechos humanos y lingüísticos", Communication at the II Congreso Nacional de Lengua de Signos Española, Valladolid University (Spain), september of 2005 (accessible at Centro Hervás y Panduro).
- Storch de Gracia y Asensio, J.G. (2006), "Derecho a la información y discapacidad (Una reflexión aplicada a los lenguajes de los sordos)", en Revista General de Información y Documentación [Madrid-España], vol. 16, núm. 1, pp. 75-103 (accessible at Centro Hervás y Panduro).
--Distinguisher (talk) 22:03, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Removed external links
I removed a number of external links from the article with the following rationales.
The following site duplicates the functionality of Wikipedia, but is full of spam:
Already included in the 'deafness' article and not directly related to cultural Deafness:
- Broadcast Captioning & Consulting Services Inc. (BCCS) - Providing Closed Captioning Services across North America.
- About: Deafness/Hard of Hearing
- National Center on Deafness at California State University, Northridge
- Gallaudet University: Demographics of Deafness
Poorly maintained:
--Distinguisher (talk) 15:14, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Removed new 'Language Barriers' essay contributed by Anahdz0717
Since a lot of work appears to have gone into this contribution, I think it's only polite to say something here about why I removed it.
1. It contains a number of factual errors (e.g., "BSL it has in own supported language or slang ... called the SSE, which stands for Sign Supported English.").
2. It's inadequately referenced. Many of the references that have been included are broken links.
3. It's poorly phrased, uses incorrect terminology (e.g., 'glossary' rather than 'vocabulary') and is mostly ungrammatical English.
4. It's not properly integrated with the existing content of the article.
5. Much of the content is inappropriate to include in an article about Deaf culture (e.g., "There are a set of rules for using language, called grammar."). --Distinguisher (talk) 12:16, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Deafness and Genetics
I just edited this page after seeing the undocumented claim that: "The causes of deafness are rarely heritable". I added a citation needed to that statement. I bring this up after reading the following article: [2] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.52.239 (talk) 11:25, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
- The statement about heritability was made in the context of accounting for why deaf children rarely acquire Deaf culture from their own families, so the heritability of age-related deafness isn't directly relevant to the argument. For the sake of accuracy, I adjusted the statement so that it applies only to children and adolescents, which is all that is necessary to account for why the culture isn't acquired from family, and which is supported by the existing reference.--Distinguisher (talk) 22:31, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
