Talk:Extinction event

Physical Geologic Driver

Need some help with the templates.

Reference Link Complete Periodical Geological Time Table http://www.springerlink.com/journals/?k=%22Complete+Periodical+Geological+Time+Table%22

Evolution on Planet Earth http://www.elsevier.com/wps/find/bookdescription.cws_home/679292/description#description

Morbas (talk) 03:09, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

I've added an expert tag as I'm not really sure what this section is trying to say - it is so poorly written. Definitely not written for the general reader. Either someone needs to rewrite for clarity and to explain it to dummies like me - or delete the section. Vsmith (talk) 23:34, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Comment from a test general reader was that is very well written. What is your expertise so I may frame my reply correctly.Morbas (talk) 04:15, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

My "expertise" is irrelevant. The section is full of jargon and undefined technical phrases/acronyms. Example: Planetary Equidistant Rupture - what the ...., planets exploding? - and then the acronyms for undefined jargon. The table is even worse, presumably trying to show some 417 mya repeating planet clobbering something? Needs jargon cleanup and sourcing, WP:OR? The sentence Mid ocean-ridge volcanism of a (merged) Earth core regulates Ocean depth. is dropped in with no context?? And on and on... Vsmith (talk) 15:12, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

All these sentences are summaries of references.

The Kvet 'Complete Periodical Geologic Time Table' paper indicates a Planetary Equidistant Rupture (PER) as intervals of increased tectonic activity. These are associated in the Phanerozoic at the Oligocene, P-Tr and OS and extends back to Earths Moon Formation. Phrase planets exploding is a phrase not found in the article.

All sentences have references. The table is made from wikipedia sourced ICS dates. Which is the citation you need. What is shown is trivial math, and this strings to other wikipedia articles for ellipsis and commutation definition.

Mid ocean-ridge volcanism regulates Ocean Depth is referenced to Rothschild, and I will string that to the original paper...this should be done. It defines ocean formation, and is relevant to physical earth.

The frame of the article starts in present down to Moon Creation discussing Geologic Chronologic patterns, and returns to the present discussing major global environmenta up to (eukarya) atmospherics in chronologic order. This Physical treatment is not found in any of the wikipedia geologic articles.

Morbas (talk) 16:21, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Then why not say intervals of increased tectonic activity rather than the jargon PER (which sounds to me like planets rupturing or exploding). Also, for example: expand the OS acronym to Ordovician-Silurian as "OS" is a meaningless acronym jargon.

Table needs a reference for the source information, else it is WP:OR or WP:SYN.

Mid ocean-ridge volcanism regulates Ocean Depth may define "ocean formation", but needs expansion beyond that one sentence and relevance tie in to the topic.

Also a google search of the section title returns nothing besides Wikipedia mirrors or copiers. So the section may need retitling to reflect usage by sources

If the main thrust is that extinctions relate to periods of orogeny then state that and re-title the section. If impact events are required due to position in galactic orbit or whatever the peri/apoapsis bit is implying then that requires explanation. Or are you saying the orogenic episodes are somehow orbit controlled?.

Vsmith (talk) 16:54, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

OS changed to O-S in text, table was correct. O-S is found in Wikipedia Morbas (talk) 18:47, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

intervals of increased tectonic activity added Morbas (talk) 18:43, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

The table is the ICS data, and is wiki linked to end of periods. It is not a synthesis of multiple sources, but elementary math using this golden source. The fact is 417Ma is the difference for sets of period transistions. The fact is the pairs are offset by a commutative pattern. The fact is that the commutative pattern cycles at apsis. Now I would like to reference orbital mechanics, but my interpretation is that that crosses the wiki synthesis line. I will not indicate that in the article, only in the discussion and on my page.

You may further divide the commutative set into three numbers, and thus calculate the entire Phanerozoic Period Transistions at a 2Ma deviation. Now this is useful information for students.

Further discussion on these perceived philisophical boundaries will impact every wiki pedia article. That is because they are synthesized from multiple sources.Morbas (talk) 19:05, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

One point is that there appears to be cherry-picking going on with some of the dates. For some reason the Cretaceous-Tertiary event is given an age of 71 Ma rather than the accepted 65.5 Ma and the end Carboniferous is given as 286 Ma rather than the currently accepted 299 Ma. Secondly, the Planetary Equidistant Rupture idea from Kvet has not been picked up by anybody else - his papers are barely cited and the concept does not appear elsewhere, so why should it be in this article? Mikenorton (talk) 21:07, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Valid Points. By the numbers...

1) The current Cretacous-Tertiary event is a random meteorite event. No large dinosaur remains are found at that event point. Meteorites are random, thus dismissable as a pattern causal. The K-T dinosaur linkage is controversial among experts, as shown by Rothschild and others. Being controversial means it cannot be a cherry-picking criteria. 1a) According to NOVA "Arctic Dinosaurs" the big pile of dinosaur fossile is dated at 70Ma-ago in AK. The Dinosaur bone structure indicates a warm blooded taxa, residing in Arctic and Antarctic: counters the Meteorite global cooling causal. The Dinosaurs thrived above the artic circles (4x closer to the poles than the present AK fossil locations). Morbas (talk) 17:54, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

2) The Carboniferous is covered in the text. The 286 date is circa 1986 dating and resides about mid point at the Karoo Ice age. The ICS dating is taxia biased and not physical, and the circa 1986 is linked to physical strata. If you paruse the web, 286 is used frequently, and this on the Canadian Museum page too. This is a controversial issue and included in the text. FN3 links to ICS variations in the Pre-Cambrian dating, to which the golden table asserts a very small +/-1Ma uncertainty. 3) The Kvet Complete Geologic Time Table is circa 1991 Geo-Journal 24.1 417-420 kluwer Academic Publisher having first publish in 1990 Russia. Until otherwise shown, I respectively assume a scholar peer level review. I have emailed Kvet years ago, no response... Morbas (talk) 23:30, 21 December 2010 (UTC)Morbas (talk) 16:07, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

If it is based on an obscure? 1991 paper that has been ignored, then out with it. Did a google search and found Springer paywalls and a number of links to discussions on WP talk pages...hmm. We aren't supposed to promote fringe/ignored stuff. Unless more recent WP:RS sources can be found, this confused hodge-podge of a section should be cut. Maybe some of it could be merged with the previous section, but the Planetary Equidistant Rupture stuff should be removed.

The title of the section "Physical geologic driver" implies some geologic force causing extinctions and the text mentions orogenic cycles, but also implies that it is "driven" by something to do with the galactic orbit peri- and apoapsis pattern with no clarification of why. Has anyone other than Kvet made a case for or an explanation of this supposed correlation? Vsmith (talk) 23:44, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I did not mention extinction in any of the text. The table has been ammended with the Big-5 and Big-ICE for information only. I make no claims about extinction cycles. Please refrain from that form of piracy.

Again, apsis axis is a mathematical function. I did not introduce Galaxy in any of the text or the table. Stop the Piracy please oh please.... Morbas (talk) 00:07, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

"Piracy"? er... maybe read WP:NPA. The article is about extinction, so if the section isn't about extinction events then why is it here? So you are talking about an abstract "mathematical function" rather than something physical connected to orbital position. If not galactic - then what? Vsmith (talk) 00:21, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Is a referee needed? Are you qualified to review Kvet? 98.148.24.98 (talk) 01:21, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Referee?? I'm not reviewing Kvet, I'm discussing a problematic section in a Wikipedia article. Who are you? Vsmith (talk) 01:43, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

I am signing off...Answer to VSmiths question, if not glactic what? Have a nice night...Morbas (talk) 01:52, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Section has been removed as undue weight and apparent "self-promotion" by the contributor of work promoted, posted or published elsewhere. See: [1], [2] and other websites discussing a Galactic Geologic Interval Theory. Vsmith (talk) 03:03, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Also see: [3]. Vsmith (talk) 04:24, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Having discussed this with other scientists is due diligence.Morbas (talk) 13:55, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Section reinstated. This is a discussion still in progress. VSmith has inserted his own ideas (piracy) to justify removal. He removed this after I signed off for the night to expore PER replacement. The Kvet reference appears to be his last hurdle. This is not origianl research, galactic has not been used. Morbas (talk) 03:52, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't see much discussion going on and throwing around accusations of piracy (whatever that's supposed to mean in this context) is not helping. If an article section is proving contentious it is perfectly normal to remove it. You have been given a lot of time to come up with a version that adds something to this article but that no longer seems likely. I have removed the section again. Mikenorton (talk) 07:32, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

And you took less than one session to assert....Vandalism Alert sinbot where are you?17:57, 22 December 2010 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Morbas (talk • contribs)

Editing break - Physical Geologic Driver

This is a discussion still in progress.

Geologic Periods are defined by a biostratigraphy process statifying sedimentary rocks, and fossile floral and assemblages. Geologic Periods are a biostratigraphic fossil histogram classificiation. An Eon is a histogram of Periods, where Eons represent the highest biotic type class divisions. Period and Eon boundaries both represent fossil class-type biolevel changes. A histogram of the Eons and Periods outlines a biotic extinction process.

The Physical environment limits the range of biotic processes... Morbas (talk) 16:47, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

The article is about finished, per your instructions. Would you like review my page before I paste into the main article. Morbas (talk) 19:00, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

There were no 'instructions', just some observations. Regarding the 'new' version

• Reference required for 'Geologic Periods are a form of biostratigraphy fossil histogram classificiation' and 'An Eon is a histogram of Periods, where Eons represent the highest physical-biotic taxa'.

First paragph shortened, objection resolved.Morbas (talk) 23:47, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

• The 'compendium of 417 Ma covariant Period interval sets' also needs a source, otherwise it remains OR

I object to an OR classification of arithmetic operations on a single source. Single source material is not defined in wiki:SYN criteria. It is a fact that the Phanerozoic consists of period pairs of 417Ma intervals. This is instead CALC allowed in wikipedia. Morbas (talk) 23:57, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

If no one has noted the 417 Ma pattern or published any significance regarding the "pattern", then it is OR to try to make or derive significance from a simple arithmetic pattern or ascribe something like a "physical geologic driver" (whatever that is supposed to mean) from that observation. If this pattern is from Kvet, then as noted WP:Undue applies. Vsmith (talk) 00:07, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

CALC-"This policy allows routine mathematical calculations, such as adding numbers, converting units, or calculating a person's age, provided editors agree that the arithmetic and its application correctly reflect the sources." Does the arithmetic and it's application correctly reflect the source? (Yes/No) No restriction is made to how many times it is performed.

Awaiting an up/down answer....Morbas (talk) 13:55, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

"If no one has noted the 417 Ma pattern or published any significance regarding the "pattern", then it is OR to try to make or derive significance from a simple arithmetic pattern..."

arithmetic pattern? So the Kepler conic ellipse function mathematical is allowed...and apsis axis is allowed. I have written the article without any conclusive arguments something my test readers have noted. HS Grad level subject indicated that he could derive the unfamiliar terminology because this was written well. First test subject was a ISO expert and a Masters level Mathematician, he told me this is a well written subject and delved immediately in conclusive arguments. I propose to you this is an encyclopedic presentation. Morbas (talk) 13:58, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

One more time - if no investigator has published an analysis of or derived conclusions from the subject arithmetic or mathematical patterns: the "417 Ma repeat", a "Kepler conic ellipse function" or "apsis axis", then such a presentation is WP:OR. So the question is: who has published these mathematical patterns and analyses/conclusions regarding them? Vsmith (talk) 21:56, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Again please, this is allowed under WP:CALC rules. These are simple arithmetic operations. These are time differences between Periods from a single wikipedia golden source.Morbas (talk) 00:40, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Math may be allowed by CALC, but ascribing meaning, interpretation and/or physical significance to the calculations requires a reliable source. Without that meaning/significance the simple arithmetic is useless. Vsmith (talk) 03:11, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

"the arithmetic and it's application correctly reflect the source" is all I assert.Morbas (talk) 05:27, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

417Ma This is not from Kvet. Morbas (talk) 03:05, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

• All reference to PER is undue, as in earlier discussions the PER of Kvet and his co-authors appear to be a minority view, held by almost no-one else, so it shouldn't be in the article

WIP Question. Is it improper to include minority views a) as nonbinding, or 2) a Iron Curtain source...

To quote from WP:UNDUE, "Generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all" and Kvet is in a minority of only slightly greater than one, hence his views should not be included. Mikenorton (talk) 18:05, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE: "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint. Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means that articles should not give minority views as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views. Generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all. For example, the article on the Earth does not directly mention modern support for the Flat Earth concept, the view of a distinct minority; to do so would give "undue weight" to the Flat Earth belief."

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Just wanted a complete paragraph. The difference here is that Kvet is not contrary and has incidental support properties. It is presented in the incidental manner and it's weight is referenced in the foot note section. If this was not clear to you, perhaps you could edit the single sentence in question. Be kind tho and present it separately here so I can maintain my records. And Kvet is published in a Czechoslovak Acadamy of Sciences, Institute of Geopgraphy journal which likely has a peer reviewed submission board.Morbas (talk) 21:20, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

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• The chart isn't helpful and I see no reason to include it

WIP: The wiki table (formating) is oversized. But it shows much of the data, the arithmetic results, the ICS dates, the major extinctions and major ICE. Would you suggest this should be split into several tables? It is here because in the OR talk, the response was to include it. Morbas (talk) 21:51, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

• Anything else should be added to the existing text. Mikenorton (talk) 20:42, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

WIP and it is too bad tables cannot be copyrighted Morbas (talk) 23:47, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

impasse

(duplicate rfc tag removed) Article in question see Morbas. The 417Ma has meaning only in repetition, arithmetic pattern and CALC. It meets Wiki rules. The Physical meaning is not indicated, but is apparent to the readership. So is an apparent physical linkage (in the readers mind) sufficient for exclusion. Morbas (talk) 15:59, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

I've removed the duplicate rfc tag - don't need two on one talk page. The rfc discussion was moved by User:Morbas to the top of this section. Vsmith (talk) 20:46, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

The rfc tag you removed concerned wiki policy rules, different from the Science Technology at the top....but you were correct to do so.... However, IMHO your objections to this article may require policy redefinition, so I reserve the right to involk such a rfc tag.Morbas (talk) 05:30, 2 January 2011 (UTC) Morbas (talk) 16:48, 8 January 2011 (UTC) Morbas (talk) 16:51, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
I am not sure I can delete all the above entries. The more bold have my permission...Morbas (talk) 18:00, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Recent times

Is there a name for the extinction event of the last few millenia owing to the dominance of Homo sapiens? ciphergoth (talk) 11:43, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

The Holocene extinction. Mikenorton (talk) 13:09, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Morbas (talk) 14:05, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Morbas, I don't need to provide citations when answering a query like that, this is not an article - holocene extinction has some issues but it does not lack citations. Mikenorton (talk) 16:40, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Mikenorton, Your response was incomplete, and as such supported a supposition "owing to the dominance of Homo sapiens?" You should have noted that, unless you provide a citation. I signed along with you with a reservation. Morbas (talk) 15:36, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

If you felt a better/more complete answer was needed, the simply provide one rather than adding an absurd citation request tag. That tag is for article space not talk pages. Vsmith (talk) 16:46, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Continental drift and plate tectonics

I think that the "Continental drift" and "plate tectonics" sections overlap, and could be merged. Comments / suggestions / complaints? bobrayner (talk) 21:48, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Agree and renamed the Continental drift section to Plate tectonics as continental drift has been subsumed by plate tectonics. Deleted the previous plate tectonics section stub which really had no content. Vsmith (talk) 22:01, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Science News resource, Permian–Triassic extinction event and Holocene extinction related

Acidifying oceans helped fuel mass extinction; Great die-off 250 million years ago could trace in part to waters' change in pH by Alexandra Witze October 8th, 2011; Vol.180 #8 (p. 10) Science News 99.35.15.199 (talk) 00:54, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Most nonavian dinosaurs?

I noticed in the summary of the K-Pg Extinction event that it said most nonavian dinosaurs went extinct. As far as I know though-which is admitably not much-all nonavian dinosaurs went extinct at the K-Pg event. Is there some evidence that a nonaavian dinosaur survived a little past the K-Pg event?--137.146.143.108 (talk) 04:27, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Graphic doesnt jive

" In the past 540 million years there have been five major events when over 50% of animal species died"

This is not reflected in the graphic. None show above or close to 50%.

99.90.71.69 (talk) 11:22, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

You're quite right, but the diagram doesn't show all animal species. The description says Note that these data do not represent all genera that have ever lived, but rather only a selection of marine genera whose qualities are such that they are easily preserved as fossils. So I guess this is the reason for the conflict you have found.Nwhit (talk) 11:58, 4 March 2012 (UTC)