Talk:Milan

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Contents

Introduction[edit]

I removed from the Introduction the mention of Bocconi as the most notable university of Milan. Bocconi may be notable as a business school perhaps, however if one were to mention one single university in the introduction, the first that comes to mind would be the Politecnico, which surpasses Bocconi by size (nearly 3 times as many students), by history (age of institution), by rank (QS Univ. rankings), by tradition (the Milan design school, of worldwide fame) by span and quality of research (including one Nobel Prize). --87.28.141.207 (talk) 17:36, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

The map[edit]

The map doesn't show where Milan is, it just shows a municipality or something, but definitely not the location of Milan! 87.61.168.192 (talk) 19:14, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

No answers! :O —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.61.168.192 (talk) 18:14, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

This is true, it shows Lombardy on the Italian map of the regioni, but not the city itself. Jul 16 08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.243.150.152 (talk) 13:30, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

July 2005[edit]

>The city proper has about 1.3 million inhabitants (2004), of which two-thirds suffer from anorexia caused from the non-stop images of extremely thin fashion models, but when including the surrounding conurbation totals more than 4.5 million. The >metropolitan area of Milan have around 6.5 million.

What is the difference between "surrounding conurbation" and "metropolitan area"? Do you mean the province with the former, and Lombardy-region with the latter? (because otherwise I don't know where the 6.5 comes from) I think that part of the article is a bit confusing.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.221.133.157 (talkcontribs) 13:15, July 28, 2005

it's easy! the border of the city of Milano was decided 200 years ago, when the city had only 400.000 inhabitants. today inside the same borders there are 1.300.000 inhabitants, but the REAL CITY is bigger, and have a population on 4.500.000 of inahbitants. thats people live in Milano and in other 40/50 municipalities that are called the First and the Second Ring, or also the Grande Milano (the Big Milano). that's the CITY of Milano.
then, as in all the rest of the world there is the Metropolitan Area of Milano, that is not exactly definited and can have from 6.5 Millions if you calculate it with the German, Spanish and English way of the Metropolitan Areas, or more than 7.5/8 Millions if you calculate it with the French and American way for M.A. Milano is the 3° biggest city of Western Europe after London and Paris.
I'm Italian and maybe I can help you as regards the City of Milano... In my opinion we can consider the metropolitan area as a groups of 40/50 municipalities in the province of Milan (let's say Rho, Sesto San Giovanni and so on...).
In the article there is a list of footballers born in this Metropolitan Area... so I can understand that also Bergamo, Varese and all the major city of Lombardia are included. In my opinion it's too much!!! Maybe the list is not really correct: for example Paolo Rossi was born in Prato, near Florence; Franco and Giuseppe Baresi were born in Travagliato, a countrytown in the province of Brescia (more or less 50 miles from Milan...) and so on! --80.104.86.88 00:26, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Milan 3° in Europe after London and Paris? This is so funny. Actually, Milan has 1.2m people as a comune and 3.1m people as an urban area, according to Eurostat Urban Audit. These are the evidences. 7.4m people is nearly the whole Lombardy, which is definitely NOT Milan's urban area. 213.140.6.126 (talk) 11:53, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Figures[edit]

Milan (Comune) has just above 1.2m people now, it's urban area is not officially defined in Italy, but could be made up of the provices of Milan and Monza and a few more cities around it, that would add up to about 4.5 million. The statement that the urban area has 7+m in the introduction is far fetched and unsustatiated.

OECD DATAS PUT MILAN METRO AT 7.4 MILLION[edit]

7.4 million is an authoritative figure by the OECD and it is the metropolitan area (not the urban area that is estimated to be 3.1 million by Eurostat), you can check this document: http://213.253.134.43/oecd/pdfs/browseit/0406041E.PDF (expecially the table on page 40). By the way, the whole Lombardy population is about 10 million. --Conte di Cavour (talk) 21:47, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Name[edit]

The Article says that in the local Insüber dialect of Milan, the city is pronounced like in French and English, both are not correct. Although French is very similar in pronunciation and spelling,(so one, could let that pass) but the English comment is totally wrong. Since in Insüber you pronounce Milan, ME - LAWN. So that statement isn't correct.

Right, also one could point out that in Milanese, Milan is the only Masculine city in Italy. Milan is read with a stressed ash sound as the second vowel. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.69.238.147 (talk) 18:32, 22 January 2007 (UTC).

The recording of the pronunciation of "Milan" in Milanese truncates after the "Mi-" and one doesn't hear how the "-lawn" part sounds in that language. Can the file please be replaced with the intended full version.Gratedparmesan (talk) 15:09, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

It also depends on the dialect of English you're talking about. I would pronounce Milan in English very close to ME-LAWN, although I have also heard it pronounced MILL-ANN by other english speakers. 64.134.127.180 (talk) 15:51, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Cimitero Monumentale[edit]

A link to the article Cimitero Monumentale should also be included in this article. I could not find an appropiate category. --84.44.158.63 15:26, 28 November 2005 (UTC)


Actually I also think it should be appropriate to add something about our beloved Cimitero Monumentale, where the most important personalities of Milan lies. There we have folks like Alessandro Manzoni (that guy named as the most important italian romance writer), Alessandro Volta (that guy who invented the electric-battery) and all the Falk family (those who represented the most important industrial family of Italy for about one century)..and many others. And what can we say about the artistic relevance of the statues in the cemetery? Come on! Let's tell something abuot it. Well, if nobody add anything to this discussion in the next two weeks, I'm going to write something in the article.

Industries[edit]

Well, not all of the mentioned industries are from Milan. Alemagna and Motta are actually Swiss (Nestlè), and the main Italian factory is in Verona. Aermacchi is in Venegono, near Varese. Bugatti is, I believe, near Mantova. On the other hand, I added the largest Italian Bank (Unicredit) to the existing second-in-rank (Intesa). The largest Italian engineering companies (well, most of) are Milan-based.--UbUb 20:54, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Famous Milan people[edit]

Who are the most famous peoples to come out of Milan or events that originated from this city...Thank you —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.168.234.176 (talkcontribs) 07:37, 23 July 2006 UTC.

This question is adressed in the article. If that's not enough, try the reference desk. --HughCharlesParker (talk - contribs) 19:20, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually I can't see any adress in the article. Some famous Milan people are: Alessandro Manzoni (that is the most important Italian romance writher), St. Ambroeus and St Charles Borromeo(both adressed in the article, I hope), Giorgio Armani (stylist), Franco Baresi (Ac Milan historical great captain), Cesare Beccaria, Enzo Biagi, Silvio Berlusconi, Bettino Craxi, emperor Diocleziano, Giacinto Facchetti, Dario Fo (Nobel prize), Ugo Foscolo, Carla Fracci, Sandro Mazzola, Indro Montanelli, Giuseppe Parini, Gianni Rivera, Umberto Veronesi. And there are many others who lived for many years in Milan, or were born in some little village next Milan, or studied and worked in Milan, like: Alessandro Volta, Caravaggio, Stendahl, Leonardo da Vinci, (and many others). If nobody say something I'm going to add a Famous Milan people section in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.25.66.5 (talk) 12:20, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Ahem... I guess you meant "people who lived and were successful in Milan", not people who "originated" from it
Cardinal (and Saint) Carlo Borromeo was born in Arona (Piedmont). St Ambrose was born in Germany. Armani was born in Piacenza, Dario Fo in Sangiano (Varese), Biagi near Bologna, Baresi in the province of Brescia, Facchetti in that of Bergamo, Foscolo in Greece, Rivera and Mazzola in Piedmont, Montanelli in Tuscany, Parini midway between Lecco and Como and emperor Diocletian in Dalmatia.

We are left with Berlusconi, Beccaria, Craxi, Carla Fracci and Professor Veronesi; but we can add Alessandro Manzoni, poet Carlo Porta and undoubtedly many others. Fact is, like all large cities, Milan attracted people from all over ItalyMb 3r7864 (talk) 01:33, 28 November 2010 (UTC).

Milan boundaries. Let's not kid around. That's not Risiko![edit]

Come on. Let's cut off this 'metropolitan area' thing. It almost has got no meaning. Milan is Milan, and the cities near it are simply other cities! Monza is Monza, Brescia is Brescia and Varese is Varese. It's very reductive and in a way ridiculous to make these towns appear like they are PART of Milan Milan's got 1.3 millions of inhabitants, and that IS 'THE REAL CITY'. Its borders are quite visible. The ACTUAL city of Milan doesn't even cover entirely its municipal area, expecially in the southern and western part. North of Milan there's Brianza that is now the name of a new province: Monza-Brianza. If they considered themselves inhabitants of Milan they wouldn't have been asking region Lombardy administration for so many years to separate from Milan.

Come on! It's like if in Germany they would call Ruhr-community DORTMUND.

mos 82.51.163.106 23:36, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Of course, all opinions welcome. --UbUb 14:04, 27 August 2006 (UTC)


also the wrong ones. Such as those at the top of the page.


the conurbation of Milan it was studied by different organisation (as ONU and Euristat and many different universities). unfortunally in Italy doesen't exixst still the classification of Urban area and Metropolitan Areas. so the exactley number of the inhabitants of the Urban Area are a little bitt different. from the 4.020.000 on Onu to 4.300.000 of different organisation. this is the Urban Area, the conurbation, the REAL CITY.

all the people that live in Milan well know that in the North and Eastern side of the municipality bonduaries is totally impossibile to know when the city of Milan end and when there's a new municipality. that happened also in the South-Western side (Corsico, Buccinasco, Assago) and a little bit less in the South-East (S.Donato, Peschiera...); but the north and the east are totally urbanizated.

i read that someone talk about the southern part of the city that is not urbanizated...there's a reason...there is the Parco Sud Milano that occupied the 33% of the whole surface of Milan Province.

and as someone wrote about Rhur and Dortmund, maybe he doesn't know that the Ruhr IS a Metropolitan Area, but whitout a central city, a dominating city. in the Ruhr there are 5 or 6 cities with similar population (around 500.000) and some dozens of others with less inabitants. all that is called as Ruhr Metropolitan Area. (around 7 Millions of inhabitants).

the same man that talk about Rhur, Milan and Risiko, DONT' KNOW that the 7 Millions of people that live in the Rhur M.A., are on a surface that is the DOUBLE for dimension of the same surface of the Metro Area of Milan (from Magenta to Bergamo and from Como to Pavia, with Milan in the middle), but in that area around Milan there are 6.5 millions of people, and in the Rhur area 7 Millions on the double of the surface!

in Germany all that is called Metropolitan Area, in Italy is called Risiko.

maybe for a long history of "Capanilismo", where every small city have a long history of war with the closest one.

so we can write that: the Municipality of Milan in the city bonuaries have 1.3 Millions. the Urban Area (the real city) have around 4.2 Millions. the Metropolitan Area have around 6.5 Millions.

if we use the French and the Usa way to calculate the Metro Area (the ones used for Paris, or NY or Los Angeles), the Metropolitan Area of Milan should be larger (from Novara and Vercelli to the Alpine Valley of Bergamo and from Lugano in Swiss south to Piacenza and Crema) and with around 7.5-8 Millions of people.

in that days the Italian Governement is trying to introduce the Metro Area in Italy. but it was just a Maquillage Operation. it will be just changed the name to the Provinces, that will be called Aree Metropolitane. but the bonduaries will be the same. so the crazy new Province of Monza, located at 11 km of city from Milan city centre will be NOT in the Milan Metro Area!

the same stupid thing will be happen in Napoli where all the part of the city that is under the Caserta and Salerno Provinces will be not inside the Metro Area of Napoli!


Monza is not crazy, its inhabitants feel like being MONZESI and not milanesi, that's all. Bergamo is another town, and so Varese and Como and Vercelli and so forth.

I think what they call MILAN METROPOLITAN AREA is more a LOMBARD METROPOLITAN AREA (or LOMBARD-PIEMONTESE-TICINESE...) as having included inside it so many important italian cities WE CANNOT ignore. And Milan lies in its southern part. It's not THE CORE of this urbanized area.

This is globalization.



Please watch this document: [1] and stop all the personal opinion about the metropolitan area. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia!!! --87.15.200.90 16:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the Metro Milan issue should be dropped from this article! It is tiring and takes the focus away from a proper description of the city. Can someone please clean this article up and downgrade the self-boasting! A new and separate article on Metro Milan might be created (if this is an important issue) but, as the writer above alludes, this urban area in Lombardy includes so many important and historical cities that they cannot be lumped together in the article about Milan. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.183.217.31 (talk) 23:55, 22 January 2007 (UTC).
3rd biggest?!? Rubbish, it certainly isn't bigger than Moscow, London or Paris. Marky-Son 14:37, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
By the source reported above the Milan Metropolitan Area is the fourth biggest in EU after Rhur, Paris and London, if you include Moscow it is the fifth...--80.104.57.128 (talk) 16:40, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

recurring linkspam[edit]

Checking the contribution of the user who added the aboutfirenze link, I have noticed that a link to aboutmilano has been added to this page. Please see Talk:Florence#External_Links and decide for yourselves. -- Sergio Ballestrero 16:39, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

climate[edit]

who wrote that ironic chapter about climate? Calling Milan's climate subtropical is foolish, it's not more subtropical then Budapest or Winnipeg. It's subcontinental, and IN WINTER SNOW IS RARE due to urban heating, always rarer indeed, apart last year.

Calling Milan's climate subtropical is what climatologist usually do. I don't know if they are so ironic. --Fertuno 15:28, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I totally agree with Basil II (the anonymous post)! Milan's climate is not subtropical and I really would like to see any evidence for that. Anybody who lived in Milan or in the Pianura Padana would simply laugh (or curse if they read it in winter)! A climate to be classified as subtropical must be influenced by tropical air masses and that does not occur in northern Italy. Milan has a climate similar to Munich o Zurich and I wonder if you will classify those cities as subtropical too... Dantadd 21:58, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I cleaned up the section. --Fertuno 14:58, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
All across Italy Milan is considered a cold town, and every person from central or southern italy blames Milan for this, assuming that it's a place too cold to live in. Obviously they say that because they live in places very hot. But this reputation shows us that Milan is not hotter than the major part of Italy.

Milan is at the feet of the Alps. I live in Milan and I can go to sky by car in less than one hour, even in summer. Milan's typical dishes are based on butter, pork, fried meat, and potatoes. I wonder if there is one single other "Subtropical town" with such a traditional cuisine! Obviously our ancestor needed calories! Milan is only 30 Km from Swiss. Do you assume that there is a part of Switzerland with a sub-tropical climate? The climate of the inner old town is maybe "subtropical" because of the great pollution levels (that sadly is about to be the worst of all Europe). But if we talk about the metropolitan area, as we do in this article, we must regard that the boroughs next Milan, especially in the north, are always 3-6 degrees lower than downtown. It is not a little difference. Finnally I think we should talk about pollution in "piana padana" in this section. ..And say also something about global warming. (Do you realize that a town at the feet of the alps is now "subtropical"??) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.25.66.5 (talk) 17:26, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I too have a problem with the "subtropical" (I lived in Milan and, yes, to me it is continental). However, have a look at the Koeppen classification for a description of Humid subtropical climate. It states winters can be cold and the climate of all of the the piana padana (Padan plain) is similar (i.e. the "same") to parts of Argentina- Uruguay, the South-eastern U.S. (from Texas to Georgia and Washington), much of Japan, and other parts of the world. These are not necessarily subtropical places. It's a poor choice for the name, but the Milan article can be clear about this. I think the global warming part added is POV and should be removed (it's in fact irrelevant, since the classification is for not just for Milan but most of the Po valley all the way to the Adriatic... see here). On another note, summers in Milan are VERY hot- mostly because of the humidity- generally moreso than the rest of "Mediterranean" Italy. Mariokempes 18:34, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Apart from climate definitions, the temperature statitics do not look right for summer: an average low of 15 celsius in June, July and August it's so far from what I have experienced all my life! it's usually much higher, very humid, with real feel higher still, at night also. Again apart from scientific definitions of MIlan's climate, what you experience are temperatures much higher than Munich or Zurich: actually the Alps are Italy's protection from cold winds blowing from northern Europe and Milan also benefits. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Theinsighter (talkcontribs) 22:11, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

The Sforza Horse[edit]

Where is it? I'm not seeing any articles on the recent completion of the horse. Would someone be kind enough to write one? --Valdrone 16:31, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

The Celtic name[edit]

I strongly doubt that a Celtic name "Medelhan" ever existed. I've found it only in non scientific texts but never in linguistic articles on Celtic languages. The only name attested is, as far as I know, Mediolanum, which was latinicized, but the Celtic form could be quite similar (something like *Mediolanom). --Vermondo 15:53, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Agreed; same goes for the form midlann advocated further below by an IP. Neither Medelhan nor midlann, much less Milan, even look Gaulish or Continental Celtic. I am not aware of any directly attested Continental Celtic forms where the ending of an o-stem, especially the vowel, is completely missing. Ancient Celtic forms usually have endings such as -os or -om/-on, and (almost) only in late attestations one can find loss of the final consonant, but never of the vowel. Many supposedly "Celtic" or "Gaulish" forms allegedly from antiquity which are mentioned in non-specialist literature are pure inventions without any sense of historical linguistics, often apparently inspired by medieval or modern Insular Celtic languages and vaguely resembling Welsh or Modern Irish, recalling Sindarin rather than actual Ancient Celtic. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 18:50, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
I've just deleted a further fictitious variant, Medhlan, from Mediolanum.
Some people clearly do not like the "mid-plain" etymology, although it is sourced. Even the ref given in Milan#Etymology actually gives this etymology and not the one expounded in the Wikipedia section. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 19:09, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
I have now changed the text to explain the issue neutrally, and taken care that the cited ref is not misrepresented, though I've added a few details (strictly speaking unsourced but trivial or basic knowledge for a historical linguist that can be found in any introduction) for the benefit of the non-specialist reader, who might wonder about the p in particular. I'm not attached to either view but can see reasons for and against both, but given the etymologies given at Wiktionary for Old Irish lann, it would seem that the original form of the name should have been *Mediolannom (in the case of the llan etymology with assimilation nd > nn, characteristic of Cisalpine Gaulish), if either etymology is true. Note that if Welsh llafn is really the cognate of Old Irish lann, it does seem (in view of the Welsh f, which can only reflect old *b or *m after a vowel), that the word is a loan from Latin lamina, which the meaning "blade" also fits, and the Insular Celtic forms cannot be adduced to support the traditional etymology. It appears, in any case, that midlann is simply the form transposed to (converted into) Old Irish, not Gaulish. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 10:07, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
I must emphasise again that Mediolanum is not genuine Latin, it's merely Latinised Gaulish (i. e., Celtic) – that means, a Gaulish word (*Mediolanon or *Mediolanom) with a Latin ending tacked on to make it appear more familiar. In particular, medio and lanus or lanum are not Latin words – they are nowhere attested, at least not in these very forms and with these meanings! (Check the Latin dictionary at Perseus if you don't believe me.) Medio- cannot even be Latin – the compounding vowel -o- is a telltale sign of this as its counterpart in Latin was weakened in the history of Latin along with other short internal vowels; if it were a genuine Latin word, it would have medi- as compound form. There is an adjective medius, true, but a form medio with a short o does not exist and with a long o it would be a dative or ablative singular, which does not make sense in a compound, or the first person singular of a verb mediāre, which is attested in post-classical Latin with the meaning "to halve, divide in the middle".
Any book which makes such ridiculous claims about Latin is so spectacularly badly researched as to be effectively useless, hence the tag. I strongly suspect that the author of that book has not checked back with a Latinist, much less Celtologist, if he really claims that these words are Latin. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 22:58, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
I totally agree that "Medhlan" is utter non-sense, standing its absurd modern Irish look... But I don't see why the Milan article has a [dubious – discuss] notice on the Latin name "Mediolanum", which is the absolutely well-atteste ancient name of the city. Also, I don't see a reason to consider unreliable the form "*Medio-lano(n/m)", which, although not directly attested, is the likely Gaulish form of which the Latin form is an adaptation. If you all agree, I am going to remove that "[dubious – discuss]" notice, which should only be on occurrances of the "Medhelan" form. 79.11.150.93 (talk) 12:58, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't notice the [dubious – discuss] notice was on the Latin origin of the elements medio and lano: of course the notice is totally correct on that statement... 79.11.150.93 (talk) 13:01, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

The culture[edit]

I added some words about La Scala (should be useful citation of Cannobiana ad Carcano) and some others roman ruins and monuments...but my English is too bad to add some other :-) Should be useful add something 1-about the modern theatres (The "Piccolo" founded by Strehler and Grassi) and the DarioFo ' one (Nobel prize) 2- and TV (f.i. the RAI -public broadcast company now in Rome, but founded in Milan) adn actually hosts mediaset) regards L --Lorenzo Fratti 14:06, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if it is "culture" or simply an "habit". But why not add something like: Milan is the second european town, after Wien, in rubbish paper ricycle. Milan is the Italian city with more voluntary associations and charity works. and so on. Once upon a time someone regarded to Milan as the Moral Capital ("capitale morale") of Italy! Davide —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.25.66.5 (talk) 23:54, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Milan and Ferrari[edit]

Sorry in advance. It is the first time I'm writing to Wikipedia, hope I'm doin'it the right way. My question is: what does it mean "Milan is also famous for the Ferrari, Fiat and Alfa Romeo motorcars" ? Only Alfa Romeo is located in Milan Area and it is historically from Milan. Ferrari is from Maranello far from Milan in another region of Italy (Emilia) as well as Fiat which is based in Torino (Piemonte).They cannot be related to Milan (and no one in Italy does)even if you consider the wide urban area, they are outside Lombardia.Thank you

You are correct and this has been removed. Mariokempes 16:09, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Milan Train Station[edit]

I'm trying to find out more information on the main train station in Milan. When I first got off the train and saw it, I knew immediately that it had been built during the facist era, and then I took this picture of the exterior sign, which confirmed my suspicions. However, I'm trying to find out what the removed part of the sign says--the only part I can really make out is "fasci". Anyone have any ideas? I personally think this is an interesting bit of history that should be included in the article--I can't be the only one wondering about this. Kari marie 14:45, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Curious synchronicity! Three days ago I photographed the very same inscription. I hadn’t noticed that there was an erased Fascist version, but was curious to see that it was giving an inaugural date in the Christian era, while at the two sides of the façade (or at the front ends of the two sides of the building) the date is given in the Fascist era: AN IX next to a bas relief of the fasces.
I can’t make out much from your picture—and given the light last Wednesday morning around 11.00 am I’ll be very surprised if I can see any more in mine when I get the film developed. But beneath the ‘O’ of ANNO there is an ‘X’ and probably the letter to its left is an ‘I’. The letters beneath the XXI DELL might conceivably be ‘ERA DEI’
Ian Spackman —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 13:26, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
I too suppose it may be the date, something like "(built) in the 9th year of the Fascist era". There are many such signs and inscriptions, some deliberately erased, some worn off by the years.Mb 3r7864 (talk) 01:10, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Milan Castle[edit]

I think we should use the castello sforzesco jpg of the french wiki-page. It shows the back side of the castle, the one original, (the front has been resteured in 19th century). Finally the "french pic", that shows also a portion of the park, is maybe more beautiful.

Smiling[edit]

Include this, mention it?

Introduce with something like: the denizens of Milan are generally cheery and smiling, in fact smiling is usually compulsory.

"In Milan, it is a legal requirement to smile at all times, except during funerals or hospital visits"

So says http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7081038.stm

Thoughts? --81.105.245.251 03:21, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

funny :) Mariokempes 23:02, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
That is probably the stupidest thing I've ever read. --Gspinoza (talk) 17:59, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Seems the BBC has removed it. I can't image how they came up with such a story... Mb 3r7864 (talk) 00:56, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

The Cathedral[edit]

The article states that the cathedral is the second largest church in Italy. Is that really true? St. Peter's Basilica in Rome is larger but not in Italy. 213.66.209.52 (talk) 21:12, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, St. Peter's is not in the Republic of Italy, yet geographically speaking it is in Italy. After all, the Vatican is just a fifth of a square mile...Mb 3r7864 (talk) 01:45, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Map[edit]

The map in the first box represents the Province of Milan, but it should represent the City. Could we use the same map of Rome, with the correct coordinates? Paolotacchi (talk) 16:03, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

You're right, but unfortunately a map showing the position of Milan in Italy like the map of Rome do not exist... --Conte di Cavour (talk) 15:03, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Done :-) --Conte di Cavour (talk) 16:24, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I do not know what you mean by Done, but as of today the locator map shows Lombardia and not Milan. I will try to fix that. Tomeasy T C 14:39, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I guess now it's done ;-) Tomeasy T C 17:33, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

First Picture on the Page[edit]

I think the first picture on the page should be a larger view of Milan rather than of a cathedral. Does such a picture exist which we could use instead?

Zerstoren

Language[edit]

I erased the part which says that immigrants are able ti speak "milanese". Milanese it is a language near to the death, absolutely not speaked by the young peole, morver not by the immigrants. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.220.151.48 (talk) 13:57, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

It depends on the immigrate. I'm a milanese speacker, and I personally know people from Morocco or China speacking it quite well... It's not so pouplar between young people mainly because not officially teached in schools, but it is still quite known by a significative parto of the population. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.96.3.241 (talk) 16:50, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
FYI, there is also a wikipedia in milanese (more precisely, in oriental lombard dialect, what is called brianzöo, from the area northwest of Milan, the Brianza) : here. I am also a milanese speaker, and I sometimes argue with lmo, but the two dialects are very close.--UbUb (talk) 17:14, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Milan of the future[edit]

I deleted the "European Library" project as for the moment being no fund has been given nor proposed for its realization; will come back to this as soon as something moves on.

Arab cooking banned[edit]

This appears to be a disturbing development in Italy:

"The drive to make Italians eat Italian, which was described by the Left and leading chefs as gastronomic racism, began in the town of Lucca this week, where the council banned any new ethnic food outlets from opening within the ancient city walls.

Yesterday it spread to Lombardy and its regional capital, Milan, which is also run by the centre Right. The antiimmigrant Northern League party brought in the restrictions “to protect local specialities from the growing popularity of ethnic cuisines”.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/food_and_drink/article5622156.ece#Ykral (talk) 05:25, 1 February 2009 (UTC)


Why the title "Arab cooking banned"?
Those regulations, however silly, do not target Arab food specifically, there are Mexican, Chinese, Japanese, Thai, even German restaurants in Milan.
Several years ago in nearby Monza another center-right council tried to prevent the opening of a McDonald outlet. Both the left and the chefs agreed, of course - for some weird reason they all forgot to call it racism.
I friendly suggest we eat our kebabs with a Pepsi and stop turning everything into politics.
Mb 3r7864 (talk) 00:49, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Questionable Wikipedian etymology for 'Mediolanum'[edit]

If a Celtic etymology for the Roman name of Milan, 'Mediolanum' is to be sought (which is yet to be established beyond a reasonable doubt, as there is a conflicting Latin founding legend about the half-wooled boar, 'Medio-lanum'), then the proposed explanation by Wikipedia of "in the middle of the plain" is not tenable. The Celtic root "lan" denominates "enclosed area" and is the basis for the Gaelic word "lann" and Welsh word "llan", which mean enclosure, sanctuary or church. The word implies specificity of the territory. The cognate term "land" in the Germanic languages was originally used to signify a "definite portion of the earth's surface, home region of a person or a people, territory marked by political boundaries" and the original sense was "a definite portion of the earth's surface owned by an individual or home of a nation."
http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/KRO_LAP/LAND.html
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=land
'Mediolanum' was also the Roman name for certain towns in Roman Britain and Gaul (e.g. Mediolanum Santonum and Mediolanum Aulercorum), not all of which were located "in the middle of the plain". The combination of the Latin root 'medio-' meaning 'central' and the Celtic root 'lan' seems to indicate that 'Mediolanum' meant 'Mid-town', 'Middle-burg', 'Center-ville', or even 'Central Sanctuary' of the specific Celtic tribe that lived in that area.
Perhaps Wikipedia should modify this section of the article.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.68.95.65 (talk) 21:11, 18 March 2009 (UTC)


There is currently a little dispute over whether the (presumed Celtic) ‘lanum’ part refers to a plain or to a consecrated place. Lo Zingarelli 2008 (page 2616. s.v. Milano) notes both possibilities and probably we should, too. —Ian Spackman (talk) 01:07, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

In fact, the words meaning 'a heath' in the Romance languages resembling 'land' (e.g. 'landa' in Italian, and 'lande' in French) are derived from a Celtic root meaning 'thorny bush', not 'a plain'. It is believed that this originated in the Breton word 'lann' (thorny bush), used in its plural form 'lannou' (a heath).
c.f. French 'brande' (bush) --> 'brandes' (heath)
http://books.google.com/books?id=ZnoCAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA267&lpg=PA267&dq=lande+lann+thorny+bush+celtic&source=bl&ots=xF-CHpwm-d&sig=rXXBzzphxWAaXLH96i6x-X5WDPQ&hl=en&ei=3CHRSbzgMZ_Ftgep8InYCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result
I do not believe this to be the source of the 'lanum' found in the various Gallo-Roman towns named Mediolanum.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.68.95.65 (talk) 20:02, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

The word Milan derives from the ancient Latin name of the city, Mediolanum. This is obviously wrong, "midlann" is commonly and widely recognized, in all of the reliable texts, as the Celtic word which gave origin to the name of the town. It should be consider the use of the vulgar version of this term during the early middle age by the local population, which is "milan", as the term which properly determine the word Milan. Indeed "mediolanum" was a latin word which wasn't widely used by the population who generally used the Celtic derivation one: "milan". The meaning of the word does not really concern the derivation of the now-days name Milan: people refered to Milan unknowing the meaning of it. Considering "mediolanum" as the latin term wich originated the name of the city is clearly ambiguous and unfair and i think it should be correct. The word Milan derives from the ancient Celtic name of the city, "midlann".

Demography section - National and ethnic groups[edit]

Could we do some cooperation to rewrite this section rather than editwar with revolving IP's over whether the copyedit tag should be there? I would try it myself, but there are many issues here that need discussion. In no particular order:

  • Ethnic groups aren't really discussed at all, just nationalities. As mentioned to me elsewhere, these are not the same thing.
  • The figures are for the city itself. Fair enough, but the articles on the metro area and province have no figures at all - does this give an accurate picture of the demographics? I'm thinking here of someone who lives outside of the city but runs a Thai food restaurant in the city.
  • Do the ISTAT figures truly represent the population? For instance, are refugee claimants and illegal residents included?
  • From my biased perspective as a Canadian, the non-Italian-origin figures seem absurdly low and in some cases not worthy of mention. 114 Australians, 115 Ghanaians? Is it encyclopedic to discuss populations comprising less than 1% of the total (or show them in a chart)? Perhaps in aggregate as South Asians, East Asians etc. to give the reader a better understanding of the composition of ethnic groups - do these figures exist externally?
  • For a comparison (unfair, since it's at the top for external origin of the population), refer to Demographics of Toronto. And also note that there is a debate with the Canadian editorial community about the exact meaning of nationality, ancestry in our case misinterpreted as "ethnic origin". The article I cite bypasses that debate by citing reliable sources for visible minorities. For Italians, non-Italians Europeans could well constitute a "visible minority" as well.

This is a vexed issue for any "cosmopolitan" city article on the wiki. Ideas are welcome and calm is encouraged. Can we agree on a decent presentation here? Franamax (talk) 20:23, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

  • I'm working on significantly changing the section. (I took an earlier whack at editing it, but the table ended up three sections down from where it should have been - no clue how that happened!) It would more properly be "National groups," and it generally seems to me the section needs major pruning. Townlake (talk) 00:36, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Looks much better now. I agree with your reduction to the top 12 groups, so it doesn't dominate the entire article. However our IP friend seems determined to keep adding the rest back. Franamax (talk) 20:04, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
      • Thank you, and that's what I was thinking. 10-12 seems about right. Thoughts from other editors? Townlake (talk) 20:18, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

It excuses to me but because it cancels to me all from the table i want some to make 21 nations at least does not cancel thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.35.236.172 (talk) 20:35, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

please d'ont cancel the table of it i make at least 21 nationals thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.36.2.29 (talk) 16:53, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Ok i have made some less in order not to increase the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.36.2.29 (talk) 17:11, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

I might take off Turkey and US, since their numbers are significantly below UK. If we can end the warring there, fine by me. The main point we need to consider (besides overwhelming the article) is what exact useful information we are giving our readers. When we are talking about national groups whose membership comprises less than 0.1% of the city population, why put it in the overview article? A daughter article Demographics of Milan would be more suitable.
Looking at the ISTAT data some more, I wonder whether aggregate figures might not be more useful anyway. 36,000 people come from Central/South America, as many as from Europe - that to me is truly interesting. Possibly another table can live beside the Country table and fill up that yucky whitespace?
Oh yes, we might as well make it accurate and fill in the largest national group, the Filipinos. Rather amusing that, I'll fix it now. :) Franamax (talk) 22:24, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

if it wants i wrtite which thing in more on the national group —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.35.249.72 (talk) 17:05, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Today i begin to write which thing on the national group goes well? because there is too much space above. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.35.255.62 (talk) 10:09, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

ok then now i have ended to write the national groups. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.35.232.126 (talk) 19:18, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

How them it seems all the job? it is understood all? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.35.229.157 (talk) 12:23, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Sorry i have still added others things that it happens to Milan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.36.11.6 (talk) 16:42, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

  • It looks like almost everything I deleted before in an attempt to improve the copy of this section has been re-added. I'm kind of at a loss on what to do next. Townlake (talk) 19:53, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
Sigh. With respect to the well-meaning IP editor, pruning shears are indicated. Some general numbers on what percent of the city population is foreign-born or identifies as foreign nationality are appropriate for the text portion. And just a little introductio to the tables, which pretty much say it all. Franamax (talk) 23:04, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Migration[edit]

noo!! whay you canc everythink??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.36.5.255 (talk) 13:29, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Hello IP editor, can you consider signing up for an account so we can communicate with you properly? You use a different IP address with every connection, so it's impossible to leave you messages.
We appreciate your efforts, but to be quite plain, and I'm sorry to say this: your English grammar is very bad. Your well-meaning attempts just result in a bit of a mess within the article, which we have to remove to keep a professional presentation. I really don't want to keep removing your edits, but perhaps it would be better if you would propose your text here on the talk page, and give reasons why you think it should be there. If we all agree, then one of us more proficient in the English language can make the actual edit. I don't want to stop you from contributing, but we're getting nowhere right now. Can you just say here what you want to include, and why you feel it is important? Thanks! Franamax (talk) 22:25, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

It excuses to me but there is much space cannot make something for all that space? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.36.4.164 (talk) 10:15, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, we could do a better job of filling out the blank spaces that result from having three tables in such a small section. However, we shouldn't be doing that by just repeating what's already in the tables. If you have specific ideas for useful information we can add, please propose them here. Franamax (talk) 18:12, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

migration[edit]

Hello!! it goes them well if i add three countries on the table with the flags without he removes to me all?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.35.251.87 (talk) 20:35, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Name[edit]

The following sentence is a bit unfortunate "in the local Western Lombard dialect, the city's name is Milán, similar to the Spanish one". The sentence makes it sound as if the local name is derived from Spanish, which of course isn't the case. Is there even any reason to mention the Spanish name of the city? I've removed it from the sentence to avoid misunderstandings.JdeJ (talk) 08:32, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree, it's unnecessary and irrelevant. Besides, the only thing that makes it more similar to Spanish than to, say, English, is the accent mark, which is sort of ridiculous to begin with. LjL (talk) 15:49, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

immigration[edit]

I have other countries goes well?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.36.6.72 (talk) 20:56, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

New weather box[edit]

I updated the weather box with new data from the World Weather Information Service.. It should now be up to date with last year's temperatures, and I also added two new rows: "Daily mean" and "Avg. precipitation days"! 93.33.198.6 (talk) 23:48, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

The data from the World Weather Information Service refers to the 30 years period 1961-1990, it doesn't include information on last year (or the last 20 years) temperature and precipitation levels.131.215.195.193 (talk) 20:28, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

MILAN,ITALY —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.119.193.227 (talk) 15:19, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Climate section errors[edit]

The climate section shows some wiki code.--IoanC (talk) 08:32, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Duchy[edit]

Milan became duchy after won over Barbarosa, and again in 14 century. How? -- Bojan  Talk  11:27, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Climate again[edit]

The article states optimistically: “Milan experiences a Humid subtropical climate...” That’s a laugh. Sounds like someone’s promoting Milan. It’s contradicted by the Italian Wikpidia which says, “According to the Köppen classification, Milan has a temperate climate typical of the middle latitudes (Cfa),” which sounds more reasonable. If no one else changes it I’ll do it myself, but I’m not very good at doing footnotes. The idea tht Milan has a subtropical climate is also contradicted by the map accompanying the Wikipedia article "Subtropics". Campolongo (talk) 19:32, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

This isn't "promotion" but fact and, In my opinion, a major flaw of the Koeppen system. The Koeppen climate classification "Cfa" zone is called "Humid Subtropical" (have a look here). As silly as it sounds, this is the same climatic zone as places like Washington, D.C., New York City and Buenos Aires, as well as nearby Bologna and Venice, so it's not technically just true subtropical locales like New Orleans or Hong Kong. The warmest month averages above 22°, thus making it Cfa and not Cfb Oceanic (such as Paris or London). Precipitation is too uniform for Csa Mediterranean (such as Rome or Genoa). Of course, each place within the zone has its own specific nuances. In addition, other systems like Trewartha may have a different classification- I will look into that and add it in if different. Koppenlady (talk) 17:19, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
Just a thought, if you wish to broaden the scope to source other systems besides Koppen, this Bioclimatic study would classify the climate in Milan as "TEMPERATE OCEANIC (SUBMEDITERRANEAN)" with a "UPPER MESOTEMPERATE LOW SUBHUMID" sub-group. We could reference this in addition to Koppen, since it seems to be more accurate. Koppenlady (talk) 22:30, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
My mistake. The map actually shows Milan as "Temperate Continental", even though it is close to the Oceanic line.Koppenlady (talk) 19:15, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Milan and the future[edit]

This and many other sections have been written by people who are subliterate. If you're not capable of writing grammatical prose why contribute? This is meant to be an encyclopedia after all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Campolongo (talkcontribs) 07:09, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Good idea and even many good sources to enrich the city better. Maybe some Italian words enbedded as friendly Italian speaking but in a English way for this too.--5.152.217.237 (talk) 15:51, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Milan and Black Death[edit]

Why was Milan spared by the Black Death? Mazarin07 (talk) 21:46, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately it wasn't; the worst occurrence was around 1630 and most Italians know this because it is described in Alessandro Manzoni's "I Promessi Sposi" (the Bethrothed") which is usually on the syllabus in Italian schools. Mb 3r7864 (talk) 00:37, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Mazarin meant the 1348 insurgence (yes, he did call it Black Death, that applies only to 1348, as for what I've always known, personally), when, yes, Milan and Lombardy where effectively spared from the raging pandemics, the only areas in Europe, along with Poland. I do not know about there, but I've been taught at my Medieval History courses at La Sapienza University, Rome, that the Milanese managed to create cordoni sanitari. In the 14th century, yes. As for the 1630 epidemic, you're obviously right.
I think the 1348 impunity from the plague, if backed with a good and reliable English-language source, should make it into the article. --80.116.166.93 (talk) 17:30, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Boring rankings[edit]

Please, stop adding those boring lists from magazines, institutes and whatever-works that flourish all along the article. They are supposed to be updated every year. Who is going to keep an eye on that kind of "data"? Are they so relevant? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.226.194.184 (talk) 19:17, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Milan - 19th century[edit]

The first line begins 'Napoleon conquered Britain in 1696...' - surely some mistake? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.39.118.155 (talk) 22:34, 9 January 2011 (UTC) Sorry, but isn't the phrase 'Napoleon conquered Britain' rather controversial? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.39.118.155 (talk) 22:43, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Maybe Napoleon’s conquering of Britain explains another oddity: that "Milan's economy is gay". Cause and effect it might be? 78.145.78.143 (talk) 14:53, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, they always said that the Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.39.112.150 (talk) 22:46, 10 January 2011 (UTC)


Whatever Napoleon conquered in 1796 it was neither Britain nor Italy. Venice and others remained until after the Treaty of Leoben in 1797. So without doing an inordinate amount of research I will make this simply an edit to change "conquered" to "invaded". 74.177.58.91 (talk) 14:40, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Changes[edit]

Hello! I just wanted to say that I believe that this article has been improving over time, both on a visual and informational level. However, there were some bits that either I had previously written, or which were in the text, that I thought needed updating, neutralising and editing. For instance:

  • Whilst Milan's cultural heritage is undeniably rich, I realised from my time on Wikipedia that this claim would be promotional, as it is vague and not strictly encyclopaedic. However, it is ancient, as many of Milan's cultural roots go back numerous centuries.
  • Also, I changed international and cosmopolitan, as, just like the above, it is slightly ambiguous (what makes Milan more or less cosmopolitan than other cities?)
  • Some information, such as the tourist stats, were outdated, so I updated them.

After a long break from Wikipedia, I have realised that several such phrases are not the best sort of linguistic terms to be used on Wikipedia, and that other, more factual and neutral ones, should be used in place.

Is there any way in which anyone thinks this article can be improved? --Theologiae (talk) 20:08, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

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I am not sure were to put this, but the "painting" that is supposed to be a depiction of 1400's Milan, seems highly unlikely to me to be one. Milano is flat, there is not hills/small mountains, and the architecture, casteles walls and lay out is all wrong, further the crest on the gate seems to be an Austrian or German one, at a time were I belive Milano was still a city state. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.245.206.4 (talk) 15:52, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Milan as a capital city[edit]

I've noticed that Milan is introduced as THE capital city of both the Western Roman Empire and the Kingdom of Lombardy–Venetia.

To be accurate, in both these circumstances Milan was not THE capital city, but A capital city.

As for the Western Roman Empire, Milan shared the role with Trier (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrarchy).

As for the Kingdom of Lombardy–Venetia, Milan shared the role with Venice (see http://www.dircost.unito.it/altriDocumenti/docs/18500000_progettoLombardoveneto.pdf or http://books.google.it/books?id=M7cLAAAAYAAJ&pg=PR6&lpg=PR6&dq=Venezia+capitale+Regno+Lombardo+Veneto&source=bl&ots=UGlJ33Erkn&sig=cJ5IuKCj31oMQJ2A0-w407ghfVs&hl=it&ei=RBCXTtzBJsfU4QTC2tCZBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CF8Q6AEwCQ), although the viceroy formally resided in Milan and in Monza.

I have to admit that these observations are not very important - but Milan is currently the Italian capital of the communication world, i.e. a city very prone to promote its image, while IMHO Wikipedia provides less communication than information.

Thanks for your patience and cooperation :-)

Roberto.peretta (talk) 16:29, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Parks in Milan[edit]

This statement "Despite the fact that Milan has a very small amount of green space in comparison to other cities of the same size" is really questionable because it's about the perceived green space but according to a survey of Legambiente (http://www.legambiente.it/contenuti/articoli/ecosistema-urbano-xviii-edizione-0) the urban area of Milan is the 2nd in Italy for total green areas so we can't say that has a very small amount of green space in comparison to other cities (What other cities are we considering?). However the tourist's view is not encyclopedic or we should say that Milan Cathedral is regarded as one of the most beautiful in the world, that Milan is considered by tourists a rainy and foggy city and so on.--Lunar Eclipse90 (talk) 14:31, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

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Founded by?[edit]

The founding of Milan is credited to one people in the introduction and two others in the Etymology section. Which is it? 64.134.127.180 (talk) 15:45, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Protest against wikipedia moderators for continuous deletion of Pirelli Tower pictures[edit]

As you all can see, any kind of picture of the Pirelli Tower, real symbol of our beloved city of Milan, is continuously deleted by some eager moderator. This situation is clearly absurd and unsupportable. The last deletion was perpetrated against a simple hand drawing, subdimmetd by the author. The Italian legislation on copyrighted images does not contain any prohibition on hand drawings. But when the moderators (they don't even read legislations) can not operate this way, they always start to say that the picture is copyed from another website, even if often the same author put the same picture on more than one website. Since this situation clearly represents a very big damage to the fruition and the encyclopedic puropose of this page, I suggest to gather and protest against a shortsighted and incompetent management. For now, I've put a Met-Life building image as a protest sign, in addition I would like to invite all of you to support the request to undelete the picture here: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:UNDEL .

--Conte di Cavour (talk) 11:57, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Weatherbox[edit]

I've recently completely rewritten the climate section, but I noticed that the data in the weatherbox is outdated as it refers to data collected between 1961 and 1990; can someone knowledgeable update the weatherbox with up to date data? --ItemirusMessage me! 10:49, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

just a popularity contest as one of the source -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_131[edit]

just a popularity contest as one of the source -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_131

Waveclaira (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 05:47, 19 September 2012 (UTC) 

GA Review[edit]

Toolbox

See WP:DEADREF
for dead URLs

This review is transcluded from Talk:Milan/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Dana boomer (talk · contribs) 00:17, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Hi everyone! I'll be reviewing this article for GA status and will have some initial comments up shortly. Dana boomer (talk) 00:17, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

I usually use a template to do a full review, but there are several things that jump out at me as needing to be addressed before a full review can commence. Due to this, I am going to post some initial comments here, and once they have been addressed, I will review the article in full. Initial thoughts:

  • Work on referencing is needed. Examples:
    • A fact tag in the Etymology section and three in Language and literature.
    • City government section needs references, especially the first paragraph
    • Geography section needs references
    • First paragraph of Economy section needs references
    • Tourism section needs additional references to cover uncited statistics, opinions, etc.
    • Sports section needs additional references for statistics, etc.
    • Seven dead links that should be fixed or replaced, see [2], most (but not all) already marked.
  • There are several sources that I find myself questioning the reliability/usage of:
    • What makes ref #8 (Frogdesign) a reliable source?
    • Ref #21 (See the Versum de Mediolano civitate.) - Don't reference to other WP articles!!!
    • Ref #23 (Ibid., p. 38.) - Don't use ibid or similar; it's too easy to mix up sources if the reference being referred to gets lost.
    • What makes ref #30 ( Graham J. Morris.) a reliable source?
    • What makes ref #32, 33, 54, 56 (Storiadimilano.it.) a reliable source?
    • What makes Ref #55, 64, 86, 87 (AboutMilan) a reliable source?
    • What makes ref #61, 62, 63, 81 (CityLife) a reliable source?
    • What makes Google Maps (ref #96) a reliable source on religion in Milan?
  • I find it amazing that there are fourteen paragraphs of information on Education, but only one very brief paragraph on Healthcare. Attention should be paid to the weighting of the various sections.
  • Text should not be sandwiched between images, as it is in the City government and Architecture sections.
  • Quite a bit of really pro-Milan language - lots of "famous for", "important for", and variations on that theme. All of these need to be carefully referenced and checked to make sure they're NPOV.
  • This article is currently at over 11,300 words, which is well beyond the 6,000-10,000 word maximum recommended by WP:SIZE. I would suggest considering whether there is information which could be cut or moved to daughter articles.

Due to the referencing problems alone, I am strongly tempted to simply fail the GA nomination for this article. However, it is possible that this work could be done within the normal time frame of GAN, and so I am willing the give the nominator (and others) a shot at it. Please let me know if you have any questions, Dana boomer (talk) 00:53, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Due to the complete lack of response to this review, I am failing this article's nomination for GA status. I would suggest that future nominators address the above concerns before renominating the article. Dana boomer (talk) 18:24, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
Hi Dana! Thanks for your interest. I think there are very few people taking care of Italy-related articles, so do not be so surprised about the lack of answers to your talk. Well, when I began to work on this article, it was in a very sorry state. After some years of continuous improving, if it is now downgraded, it sounds kind of ironic to me. I don't want to say that your remarks are not appropriate - they are all absolutely right - but some categories of articles (especially relating to non-English speaking countries' local authorities) are really godfrosaken. So, except a fistful of willings, there is not enough people to work properly on Italian cities and regions. In addition, the absurd total deletion policy of pictures of Italian modern buildings (eg. the iconic Pirelli Tower), carried on by interpreting in a very restrictive, excessive and obtuse way the Italian law on the freedom of panorama (in a totally different way from how it is applied in the Italian wiki itself) is another big issue that causes extensive damage to this and other similar articles. Therefore, any further progress, to which I will certainly contribute, will be always pretty slow.

Now, getting down to the questions:

  • What do you exactly mean with "Text should not be sandwiched between images"?
  • Can you help us in dealing with the picture deletion policy?

Conte di Cavour (talk) 13:42, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi Conte - when text is placed between two images (in other words, an image on the right and an image on the left of a block of text), it is considered to be "sandwiched" between the images. This is discouraged by the MOS. As far as the image deletion, I have very little experience in image copyright policy and absolutely none regarding Italian copyright law. And, frankly, I don't really have any interest in learning for the sole purpose in entering an argument already populated with editors. Dana boomer (talk) 23:11, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
Hi Dana, in the last months I tried to do my best to improve the article according to your advice. Give me some feedbacks when possible please. I would like to point out that there are very few good pictures of Milan on Commons, and a lot have been recently deleted because of copyright disputes. So it is particularly difficult to illustrate Milan's modern architecture and to replace the awful Milan collage.--Conte di Cavour (talk) 00:26, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Correction[edit]

"Today, there is also a McDonald's fast-food restaurant in the Galleria Vittorio Emanuele II" This restaurant has recently closed. 93.36.121.187 (talk) 09:25, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Re:Request for Feedback[edit]

I just received a request for feedback on the changes that have been made since my GA review last year. While it looks like some good work has been done, there are still many things that I mentioned in my review that have not been addressed. The same dead links, citation needed tags, extensive paragraphs of text completely lacking references, unreliable sources, text sandwiched between images, etc. are still present. What image is at the top of the article does not matter with regard to GA status. If you're truly interested in GA status, forget about the images and work on the referencing - that is where the biggest issues lie. Dana boomer (talk) 00:00, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your kind reply. I know that there is still a lot of work to do. But could you be more specific please? Regarding the sources, I removed a lot of dead links and unreliable sources and I added dozens of new references in 1,2,3,4,5,6, 7.1, 7.3 and 8 (some of them, completely rewritten). I still have to start editing Cusine, Literature, Religion, Music, Sports and Trasnports. Which paragraphs do you consider to be particularly lacking of sources, in addition to these, and which ones are ok? Just say the number please, it's very important for me to know what is to be most edited. In relation to the pictures: while having removed the most extensive examples of it from the article, I noticed that a little "sandwiching" is featured in a lot of GA articles, e.g. London. When big pictures are used (NB: the onnly good ones available), I think it is unavoidable, otherwise a big portion of space would be left completely empty, thus negatively affecting the graphics of the paragraph. Am I wrong? --Conte di Cavour (talk) 13:22, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
I see that you have done quite a bit of work on the article, which is awesome! You have done an especially good job at cutting the word count, making the article well within the guideline for maximum length. It would be great to see more people interested in working on some of the large city articles. For specific areas where I see additional referencing is needed: several paragraphs in the history section are completely unreferenced. In the Cityscape section, there are several unreferenced paragraphs in the Architecture subsection and the Parks and gardens subsection has zero references. Besides the subsections in Culture that you referenced above, that you haven't started work on yet, the first two sections are still under-referenced. In general, when wording like "renowned", "major international hub", "often regarded" (the question being, by who?), "worthy of note", etc. is present, there really needs to be a reference. These are examples of language used in many places throughout the article, which, as I said in my review, can make the article look POV unless very careful and reliable referencing is used. Storiadimilano, CityLife and AboutMilan are still used as references, despite being most likely unreliable. There are still a number of dead links, some of which are tagged and some of which aren't (I'd link to the Toolserver report of dead links, but it's not working properly at the moment). I'm not sure what you mean about portions of space being left empty if you take out images that are sandwiching text? In, for example, the Museums and art galleries subsection, there are four images, two on each side, making almost the entire subsection consist of sandwiched text. If you took out or moved two images, there would be no sandwiching, and no empty space. I understand that it can be very hard to choose which pictures to keep and which ones to discard, but you can always link to the galleries on Commons, as you already have in the External links section. Dana boomer (talk) 19:57, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
Ok, thanks a lot! --Conte di Cavour (talk) 20:07, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
storiadimilano, it seems to me, is a first class source of information about the history of the city. It will not be 100% fee of errors, but neither will be the following recommendations which follow. The 12-ish volumes published by Treccani under the same title, accessible by anyone prepared to take a train journey to the British Library or to an an equivalent library are probably the best. And the guida rossa (about £12 in paperback including postage) is a sine qua non. Anybody (not me) prepared to go back into the history of the article and find the sources I cited for my paragraph or so on the city’s renaissance architecture, since removed, will be able to discern whether my idea of what constitutes a reliable source is sensible. Ian Spackman (talk) 10:20, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Important material missing[edit]

I was considering renaming this article for Good Article status after the recent improvements but I noticed that it is still missing some important material:

Just my two cents --Itemirus (talk) 23:44, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

monster high[edit]

monster high is a monster school يfor ييييييgirls well mabey ghouls . with draculaura daughter of dracular and frankie stein dauhter of franki stein cleohttp://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Milan&action=submit# de nile as denile — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.30.174.29 (talk) 17:44, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Demographics controversy[edit]

Recently, someone put new figures for the metropolitan area, claiming an astonishing 11 million (the Lombardy region has a total population of just 10 million). Regrettably, the reference associated with the claim does not contain any information that could support it (it contains a pdf about the population of the commune). In absence of a valuable source, I would proceed to revert the figure to the previous vlaue of 7.4 million (OECD). --Conte di Cavour (talk) 11:00, 14 June 2014 (UTC)