Talk:Mordvins

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Archives

Archive 1 (Aug 2007–March 2009)

Ref. 5, (Klima, László, 1996)[edit]

I noticed that the first and last names of the author of the book "The Linguistic Affinity of the Volgaic Finno-Ugrians and Their Ethnogenesis." have been incorrectly identified. In fact László is his first name, and Klima is his last name. I supposes this affects also references 6,9,10,11 and 13, where it should read Klima instead of László or Laslo but I'm not sure so I didn't change them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.32.5.125 (talk) 17:13, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Mordvinians are doomed Soviet nationality[edit]

I suggest to split existing article to 5 separate articles as existing text is a mixture of terms and history facts corresponding to different ethnic groups. Mordvin is not a self-designation for none of 5 mentioned ethnic groups. They are not a group or unity whose members identify with each other. They do not have common heritage, common ancestry, or common language. Mordvin language never existed. Eastern neighbors of mentioned ethnic groups recognize them as separate ethnic groups. Article stub for separate article Moksha (people) is here. --Jarmanj Turtash (talk) 12:28, 25 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The separate article could be made without changing the main one too much. The term Mordvins defines a certain group of ethnicities, it is widely used term, and the ethnicities are related. GreyHood ^Talk 15:13, 6 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No common name for Mordvins and Mordvin language[edit]

Mordvin language, member of the Finno-Ugric group of the Uralic language family, spoken in Mordvinia and neighbouring areas. The third largest Uralic language in number of speakers, Mordvin ranks after Hungarian and Finnish. It has two major dialects: Erzya, spoken in the eastern portion of Mordvinia and the surrounding territory, and Moksha, spoken in the west. Both dialects are currently written and have official status, and their speakers have been known to identify themselves as separate ethnic groups. Indeed, they lack a common name for their language; Mordvin is an exonym, or name used primarily by outsiders Britannica.--Numulunj pilgae 11:27, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

If the definition of a language involves the existence of a literature, then Erzya has a two-hundred year old literary tradition commencing with the publication of a Catechism in 1806, the Gospel in 1821 and the first grammar in 1838-39 (Gabelentz). The Moksha literary tradition is slightly younger, beginning no later than 1838 with a grammar by Ornatov. To this date there has been no literature written in a hypothetical Mordvinic language, even the staunch proponent of a single Mordvin language, Nikolai Butylov, has never published an article in this proposed language. As the Moksha poet-play wright Pudin has stated "There is not a single young mother who has spoken to her babe in Mordvin, she speaks to that babe in Moksha or Erzya".

If the definition of an ethnic group has anything to do with a specific language and a specific culture, then the differences between Erzyas and Mokshas might be seen as cultural, as well. Unfortunately, scholarship in Erzya and Moksha studies has been concentrated into the hands of people with political agendas or ones lacking internal-perspectives, and descriptive interests. This might be seen to apply to the Erzya Mokshin and his two non-Erzya speaking daughters, by some.

The problem with external coercion by people unaware of the situation is that descriptive work is hardly ever supported. If the Mokshas are left alone because the Erzya have be coerced into assimilation, the Mokshas will miss them. If the Mokshas dissappear, the same is definitely true. Not being able to distinguish between algebra and trigonometry might just indicate a lack of knowledge in the "upper maths". The Erzyas and Mokshas are closely related, as might be expected due to mere proximity, but each group thrives on the knowledge of their own entities and the existence of a close sibling. Most recently, the Minister of Culture, Tultaev stated in a speech before the Finnish Diet (Eduskunta: Fall 2010) that three Mordvin languages are spoken, namely, Moksha, Erzya and Shoksha. Certainly, these three groups can live in harmony, with the Bible translated into Moksha and Erzya but not Shoksha. None of them have a navy or state. (Botuzhaleny-sodamo (talk) 12:19, 5 May 2011 (UTC))[reply]

File:MrdvnImg1.jpg Nominated for Deletion[edit]

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External links modified[edit]

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External links modified (February 2018)[edit]

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Ethnicity with no Common language and no common ancestry[edit]

It was difficult to prove negative. But now you can see the proofs: no common language, no common ancestry, created in 1928. The timeline is provided. Unblocked vandal is systematically deleteing the proofs and rolls back to the outdated version based on sources of 19th c or Soviet 1960s sources. What is going on? They doesn't like proofs on artificially created Soviet ethnicity or Jewish heritage? Minorsky (1959) explained Arab sources referred to Mokshas as Burtas. Burtas (Brutakhi) were reported by Carpini to be Jews in 13th c. Prof. Mokshin (2012) confirms deep Jewish roots, Hebrew names and placenames in both Moksha and Erzya. Old Moksha names like Mosha, Mordukai or Yuda higly likely resemble Hebrew ones, aren't they? What is going on, guys? Are you turning a deaf ear to the facts just deleting them without reading? Are you supporting the vandal? Come on, prove negative before reverting. May be Mosha is in fact Misha, Mordukai is Ivan. Provide your sources. Is it en.wiki?----Numulunj pilgae (talk) 11:13, 20 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Soviet Ethnicity[edit]

I believe Vaultralph is right removing sources re Judaism and relation to Baltic Finns in Mordvins. Being an artificially created Mordvin nation was supposed to be 100% atheists which can be proved by Soviet religios studies. They of course were not true because Erzyas and Mokshas had nothing in common with this nation. ^[1] During the Soviet reigh Mordvins were considered a single nation with common ancestry and a single language as well as a Mordvinic branch of Finno-Ugrian people. Only the recent studies regard Erzyas and Mokshas as Finnic peoples.^[2] In spite of the fact that ethnic Moksha Subbotniks were executed by Nazis in Ukraine during WW2 as Jews. And Subbotniks as well as ethnic Moksha Judaizers migrated to Israel already in 20th c. Jewish Heritage must be explained in Mokshas and Erzyas articles respectively. But I have to provide thorough explanation of the Mordens origin, a collection of Uralic-speaking ethnic groups forming an alliance starting from ca 5 c AD till 1230. The draft will be in my sanbox until is ready.

P.S.:Seems Vaultralph's idea was not to remove mentions of Baltic Finnic peoples or Judaism re Mordvins because I had removed them. He just reverts Russian DNA and recent Oxford Uralic studies because he personally just didn't like them. The bot is still not assigned to stop him.----Numulunj pilgae (talk) 06:37, 22 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References[edit]

^ Isabelle T. Keindler (1 January 1985). "A doomed Soviet nationality ?". Cahiers du monde russe et soviétique. 26 (1). EHESS: 43–62. doi:10.3406/cmr.1985.2030. Retrieved 22 October 2010.
^ Piispanen, Peter S. Statistical Dating of Finno-Mordvinic Languages through Comparative Linguistics and Sound Laws: Fenno-Ugrica Suecana Nova Series. 15 (2016). P. 1-18

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Mapping Moksha Genetic Y-chromosome DNA Haplogroup.png

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 20:37, 10 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussions at the nomination pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 20:52, 10 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Kremlebots are deleting images and references here one by one[edit]

Usually they always use the same tactics. First deleting images and lines/references, maybe once a month, then placing templates about the lack of sources/references and change/delete the article. What do they want? To roll back the article to Stalin's version of history. They don't like DNA studies the most. You don't believe in Kremlin bots? Read this about investigations of British ISD and CASM [1] They are easy to be traced by they deeds. The next image about difference between Mokshan and Erzyan languages as per glottochronological analyses is also nominated for deletion. I'll have to upload it again if I'm not be banned again. It's better using a bot against the bots, isn't it? Or you prefer Stalin's version, dear admins? The same problem with the long time ago approved article Gelons and Mordvins. It had just disappeared. I restored it with the more correct name and this is the correspondence re this vandalism issue from my talk page:

Gelonians and Mordvins moved to draftspace

An article you recently created, Gelonians and Mordvins, is not suitable as written to remain published. It needs more citations from reliable, independent sources. (?) Information that can't be referenced should be removed (verifiability is of central importance on Wikipedia). I've moved your draft to draftspace (with a prefix of "Draft:" before the article title) where you can incubate the article with minimal disruption. When you feel the article meets Wikipedia's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page. Onel5969 TT me 12:38, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

A well-known professor's monograph kept in President Yeltsin's Library. What do you mean by "verifiability"? To exhumate president Yeltsin and check his fingerprints, or special approval of acting US or Russia presidents, or both? --Numulunj pilgae (talk) 16:22, 15 November 2022 (UTC) (talk) 05:33, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

P.S.: The Stalin's, or to be precise Catherine II (the Great)'s version is about Russian state and culture greatness. Non-Russian majority in Russia are peoples/ethnicities who never had their own cultures, literatures, histories, even those who existed before AD, until Russians came and gave them all. Their joining the Russian state was always their good will and they all are happy now and of course prefer Russian language to their own 'village' speaks.--Numulunj pilgae.

Calling other editors "kremlebots" is considered a personal attack, also casting aspersions. You are also not assuming good faith. Please discuss with the editors on why they deleted something. Mellk (talk) 20:24, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Please check the activity of the editors I called so. They are violating the rules removing approved content without any discussions, and with no any reason. If you find a reason, for instance, why should a reference must have been deleted and changed to template "no reference", or why one of the DNA analyses map of the two deleted leaving no sense in the article, then I'm ready to apologize namely to those kind editors if they might feel offended. --Numulunj pilgae (talk) 15:43, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Please write on their talk page or ping them in the article talk page to ask them. What rules are they violating specifically? Mellk (talk) 18:58, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if the article does contain a very large amount of information that's not supported by any reliable sources, it's entirely appropriate to delete it or tag it as unsourced. Finstergeist (talk) 20:02, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Muromian-map.png

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:39, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Article structure[edit]

Something is fishy with article content.

I deleted the section "Origin of the term" which said nothing about "origin of the term" but a huge cut-an-paste from book.
Section "Erzya-Moksha Autonomy" somehow popped to the top, where it is clearly misplaced.

I suspect this resulted from edits of Numulunj pilgae in 2022, but I have no interest in this subject, so please someone else take a look into page history. - Altenmann >talk 08:17, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Isabelle T. Keindler (1 January 1985). "A doomed Soviet nationality ?". Cahiers du monde russe et soviétique. 26 (1). EHESS: 43–62. doi:10.3406/cmr.1985.2030. Retrieved 22 October 2010.

[2] Piispanen, Peter S. Statistical Dating of Finno-Mordvinic Languages through Comparative Linguistics and Sound Laws: Fenno-Ugrica Suecana Nova Series. 15 (2016). P. 1-18

[1]

[2]