Talk:Nishonoseki stable (1911–2013)

Headline text[edit]

Requested move 6 January 2015[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. The main page where it is now with a hatnote to the 2014 version seems to address the DAB needs without needing a separate DAB page. If the new 2014 stable becomes more prominent this move request could be revisited. 2014 is a very recent date, and as BD2412 observed, the original stable lasted for 80 years. EdJohnston (talk) 22:46, 23 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Nishonoseki stable → Nishonoseki stable (1935) – The article's current title is ambiguous, as there are two stables of sumo wrestlers with this name - the original, now defunct stable founded in 1935, and a separate stable, previously known as Matsugane stable, that was renamed Nishonoseki stable in 2014. The move was previously carried out by User:FourTildes but was reverted by User:BD2412 who described it as controversial and that there was "no evidence that the original topic is not primary for the term." It should not be controversial; we need only look at a similar case, Tagonoura stable, where the original, defunct stable is at Tagonoura stable (2000), the renamed stable is at Tagonoura stable (2013) and Tagonoura stable is now a dab page. I believe we should do the same thing in this case. It is likely that the active stable, which is the home of the top divison wrestler Shōhōzan Yūya, will be most searched for now and in the future, not the defunct one. Although it was a prestigious stable many decades ago, the original Nishonoseki was in decline for a long time, and now that it is defunct should certainly not be regarded as the primary topic. --Relisted. — Amakuru (talk) 21:37, 15 January 2015 (UTC) Pawnkingthree (talk) 20:20, 6 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:TWODABS, a disambiguation page is not needed if there are only two topics, and one can be considered primary. It is important to remember that a disambiguation page is merely a navigational tool. If navigation can be accomplished in a hatnote, then there is no need to set up a separate page to perform this function. In this case, the Nishonoseki stable established in 1935 and lasting for nearly eighty years thereafter appears to be far more notable than the one established just last year. bd2412 T 20:37, 6 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have no argument with using one article as the primary and no DAB article, but the current 2014 stable should be the primary. The defunct stable has no active wrestlers that moved anywhere else, and the current Nishoseki is head of a group of stables called an ichimon, which is named after it. When most people who know a bit about sumo go searching for Nishonoseki stable they will likely be looking for the current one, and if they don't they can use the hatnote to find the old one. FourTildes (talk) 11:23, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. The claimed parallel with Tagonoura stable is tenuous; In that case the decision so far is that there is no primary meaning despite Tagonoura stable (2000) existing for only two years, and having little prominence. If the current stable is not primary in that case how much less likely is Nishonoseki stable (2014) to be primary in this one. At the very least, no case has been made for the move, and it seems unlikely that one can be. There is also an issue with the proposed disambiguator (1935) in that this article also covers the stable that existed from the 18th century, perhaps not an unsurmountable problem but still something to resolve. Andrewa (talk) 16:53, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It appears you meant to link to Tagonoura stable (2013) with your reference to it only existing for two years. In fact is by far the more prominent of the two Tagonouras as it is the home of ozeki Kisenosato, one of the biggest stars in sumo today. If we must have a primary then it should clearly be the new stable, and the same is true with Nishonoseki - as I mentioned before, the new one contains the top division wrestler Shohozan, and as FourTildes mentioned it is also high profile because it the figurehead of one of the six ichimon or stable groups.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 02:53, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

My mistake, but no, the link is correct, the mistake is that my comment should read only twelve years. With that correction the logic stands. No change of vote. Andrewa (talk) 13:23, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.