Talk:Palestinian Christians

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Naming[edit]

What is the purpose of this page? Is it supposed to be about Palestinian Christians? If so, rename it to Palestinian Christians. But the comment about being "raised in North America" -- are you talking about yourself personally, or what? Plenty of Palestinian Christians are still in Palestine. -- Simon J Kissane

Yes You are right! This is the first time I have ever done anything like this, and I do not know how to fix this entry...

I tried twice (look at revisions): It should have read to the effect of a Canadian/Christian/Palestinian/Arab viewoint, one unique in its character, compared to a more traditional Muslim/Palestinian/Arab point of view. The differences can be quite remarkable. No offence is meant. I hope this clarifies why, mainly I do not know how to edit this...

Joseph E. Saad

Joseph: Is your problem technical (you can't work out how to use Wikipedia), or is it finding words for what you want to say ? If its the first, I can probably try helping you. If it is the second, I can also try, but it will probably be a lot harder. -- Simon J Kissane


Yes, mostly at the beginning I had a little hard time getting some parts (technical), but I am learning. I like the way you make the pages look better, more professional.

Also it was hard to describe the point of view I was addressing. Just to make sure that there is a view, not normally heard, You have made it better,

Joseph

See also : Palestine

Does Arafat's wife count as a "Palestinian leader"? Would it be better to write something like "prominent Palestinians"? -- zero 13:21, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC)

== Question == 71.142.68.32 02:58, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

You might want to talk about Palestinian Christians in Israel too. I have heard they number 125,000. My question is that I have heard almost all the Christians and Muslims were expelled in 1948 from West Jerusalem (or was it Israel as a whole), and that only Jews can be Israeli citizens. So my quetsion is, how can there be Christians in Israeli territory? Thank you. -Rakovsky

I tried to address this point as well as others brought up in the talk through three recent edits.

I also removed this section, "In September 2005, some houses in the Christian village of Taybeh were burned by an angry mob from a neighboring village who were protesting a love affair between a woman from their clan, a Muslim, and a Taybeh man. [6][7]"

I did this after thoroughly reviewing the links to the articles provided which painted a much more complex picture of a struggle between the secular Palestinian Authority judiciary and legislative system and the tendency of some segments of Muslim society to implement their own versions of Sharia law. The BBC report referenced did not conclude whether the woman was actually killed or committed suicide as claimed by her family. It is not clear that if the situation involved a Muslim man the reaction of the mob would have been any different. I think that if the author wants to include an example of anti-Christian actions by Muslims, there should be a better and clearer example available.

I would like to continue working on this article. I should mention that my interest in this subject stems from the fact that I am a Palestinian Christian, married to a Palestinian Muslim and both of us hold Israeli citizenship. The only problem we - and the four other couples we know who are similarly "mixed" - have experienced so far is that we had to get married elsewhere, because none of us wanted to have religious ceremonies and the Israeli government refuses to provide its citizens with the option of getting married in a civil ceremony at home. In contrast, both of our families and the Palestinian society at large have been very supportive.Tiamut 22:19, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

How to Add Info?[edit]

Hi, I am a Lutheran pastor working in Jerusalem with Bishop Dr. Munib A. Younan of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Jerusalem and Jordan. There are three Palestinian heads of churches here, the article mentions two, Michael Sabah of the Latin Patriarchy and Bishop Riah of the Episcopal Diocese. Just wanted to add Bishop Younan and our Church, the ELCJ. Can someone do that for me? Thanks, Pastor Julie Rowe

No problem. - Mustafaa 01:10, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)


Suggestion for this entry[edit]

This is my suggestion for this entry. As the article currently stands it has little to do with the realities of Palestinian society. A number of sources point to Israeli occupation of Jerusalem, Gaza and the West Bank as the primary reason for emigration. This is not even alluded to. What sources have been used for this entry?

....Palestinian Christians are Palestinians who are members of a number of different Christian communities. Historically they have made up some 10% of the world's Palestinian population. The region called Palestine is referred to as the Holy Land by Christians, and major Christian holy places like Bethlehem and Nazareth are in Palestine.

Many Palestinian Christians became refugees during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. It is often argued this community was hit particularly hard economically due to their traditional involvement in commerce. They were like other Palestinian refugees forced into neighbouring countries like Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt.

Palestinian Christians have played a prominent role in Palestinian society on the political, cultural and economical level. Examples of Palestinians with a Christian background include Hanan Ashrawi, Edward Said, George Habash, and Raymonda Tawil, mother of Yassir Arafat's wife Suha. There are also current and past high ranking officials of the PLO and the Palestinian Authority of Christian descent.

There is a long history of Christian migration from West Bank cities like Ramallah, Beit Jala and Bethlehem. Migrants have mainly left for Latin and North America. Major Palestinian communities exist in Honduras, Brazil, Chile and the United States, in particular in the metro Detroit area. Some commentators suggest Christian emigrants are more successful in being accepted in Western countries than Palestinians with a Muslim background. It should however be noted that they have traditionally had a higher level of formal education. A minority view holds that the increasing influence of Islamism in Palestinian politics and society is perceived as threatening to Palestinian Christians. This view is however strongly condemned by the PLO and Palestinian Christians in Palestine and outside. Palestinian Christians have played a leading role in the PLO throughout its existence. The PLO has also emphasized its secular aims.

The community has over the last decade witnessed a public debate on alleged mismanagement and condescending attitude towards Arab faithful by the Greek-speaking and largely Greek-born leadership of the Jerusalem Orthodox Church.

The majority of Palestinian Christians belong to the Greek-rite Orthodox Church of Jerusalem, one of the 16 churches of Eastern Orthodoxy. There are also Maronites, Melkites, Jacobites, Roman Catholics, Syrian Catholics, Copts and Protestants among them.

The Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem Michel Sabah is the leader of the Palestinian Roman Catholics. The Anglican Bishop of Jerusalem is Riah Abu Assal. The Bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Jerusalem and Jordan is Dr. Munib A. Younan.......

Is this your suggestion for how you think the article should look? If so, the statement "They were like other Palestinian refugees forced into neighbouring countries like Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt" is, at best, highly contested. I'm not sure why a more neutral "Like other Palestinians, they became refugees in neighbouring countries such as Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt" wouldn't be much better. As for why they're leaving now, here is one view: [1] Jayjg (talk) 17:08, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Oh, you might want to look at this as well: [2]. Jayjg (talk) 18:13, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You don't think it's just a little incongruous to be quoting an Israeli and an American anti-Muslim campaigner, rather than a Palestinian Christian, on why Palestinian Christians are leaving? The stated views of the Palestinian Christians themselves are more relevant than the POVs of their enemies, and those views are (and always have been) notable for their strong Palestinian nationalism and their condemnation of Israel. But ot be more specific, here's what some Palestinian Christians say: [3] [4] PDF- Mustafaa 19:46, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Well, I didn't quote either of them, and the Israeli quotes a whole list of other sources, and the "American anti-Muslim campaigner" is a Palestinian former Muslim. As always, I think NPOV covers a variety of (ideally attributed) views, but I'm still not sure if the text above is one that is being recommended. Jayjg (talk) 20:12, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I was speaking of Robert Spencer, not the dubious Walid Shoebat. NPOV means we have to mention such views; it doesn't mean we have to pretend they're of equal significance, or omit information on who and how many people hold them. - Mustafaa 20:43, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Ah. Spencer quotes Walid Shoebat, doesn't he? If we do have information on exactly how many people hold various views, we should certainly mention it. Jayjg (talk) 21:11, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Jayjg, What is interesting about this article is that it contradicts itself. It mentions a number of prominent Palestinian Christians (Said, Ashrawi, Habash and Tawil). These Palestinians are without exception nationalists who do not subscribe to the idea of a conflict between Christians and Muslims in the Palestinian context, quite the contrary. Edward Said even wrote the book 'Covering Islam' dealing with what he sees as biased reporting of Islam in western media. I believe the following link is more representative of a Palestinian perspective than what has been linked in your response [5] It remains a fact that Palestinian Christians have held positions in the PLO and Palestinian Authority, in Palestinian political parties, unions, educational establishments in numbers that are much greater than what their percentage of the Palestinian population by itself would imply. Tiller1

Indeed, the disproportionate involvement of Christians in Palestinian nationalism is a well-known fact, alluded to by every history book of the conflict I've ever read. - Mustafaa 00:11, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure what the issue is. There seem to be two points here; one is that Palestinian Christians have historically been disproportionately involved in Palestinian nationalist movements. The other that at least some have made persistent allegations of Muslim oppression, particularly in recent years. Why is this a contradiction? Jayjg (talk) 02:30, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I believe the discussion here is the article as a whole. It needs to be changed as it is of poor quality. 'at least some' does not tell us much to be honest, neither does 'persistency'. There is a need for international sources to back these allegations: Amnesty, HRW, the UN etc. The contradiction is the following: No claims of persecution have been offered by any well known Palestinian Christians (as I have stated earlier the most well known are in the article: Said, Ashrawi etc). If the allegations about 'muslim persecution' were correct these prominent Christian Palestinians would have made public statements to this effect. I have also posted a link above that expresses the majority view from a Palestinian perspective. So I would like to have this article changed ASAP. The fact that someone posted this article initially does not make it right. It is also worrying that no timeline is offered in terms of emigration. An article on Palestinian Christians should mention emigration to Latin America, in particular the communities in Brazil, Chile and Honduras. In Chile they even started their own football club: Palestino. Please look at the following article. I believe this article also goes some way in proving just urgent this entry in wikipedia needs changing (the Palestinian community in Chile is largely Christian): [6]
Well, I still can't figure out which sections you want to change and exactly how. The claims of persecution of Christians are published in reputable sources, and apparently American courts have accepted religious persecution of Palestinian Christians as fact. I'm all for balance, but not for removing this view entirely. Jayjg (talk) 17:25, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
"at least some have made persistent allegations of Muslim oppression"? Your former link quotes not a single Palestinian Christian making such an allegation, restricting itself almost entirely to Israeli reports; the latter quotes a recent convert from Islam to ultra-Zionism. - Mustafaa 07:46, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, my language wasn't clear. I meant that at least some people have made those allegations, not necessarily Palestinian Christians. Here's at least one Palestinian Christian who attributes increased emigration to both "a result of the occupation and the growth of extremism"[7] Here's a CNEWA report that lists "Selected accounts of Christians expressing feelings of intimidation/persecution due to rise in Muslim extremism" as being an issue: [8] Here's a BBC report that says "The rise of Islamic militancy is also a factor, though one that is hotly debated." [9] Regarding the relationship of Islam and Christianity in the P.A., though not 100% on this topic, here are some interesting comments by a Palestinian Christian regarding the proposed Palestinian Constitution:[10] Regarding "ultra-Zionism", it's not a faith I've heard of before; I had thought Shoebat had himself become a Palestinian Christian ;-) Jayjg (talk) 17:15, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Jayjg, Your links all attest to Israeli occupation as the primary cause. Together all these links make a strong case for this entry to be deleted and to be included under the general entry Palestinians.

We do not have any sources on these judgements by two American courts, I find it odd that people are granted asylum when they are fleeing an entity not recognized as a 'state' by the American government. This seems to contradict the UN Convention relating to the status of refugees from 1951, although it appears the US is not a signatory. I again notice there are no international sources being used like Amnesty, HRW, UN etc.

The links list a number of causes, occupation being an important one. Here are more examples of articles outlining other causes: "Palestinian Christians being terrorized in Bethlehem" [11] "Islamic Treatment of Palestinian Christians" [12] But if its international sources you want, would this be a start? "Some Palestinian Christians have experienced intimidation and harassment by radical Islamic groups and PNA officials."[13] [14] On the one hand Muslim intimidation is clearly not the only reason Palestinian Christians are leaving; on the other hand, it doesn't seem reasonable to ignore it as one of the reasons. Jayjg (talk) 18:37, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
All the sources point to Israel as the reason why people emigrate. I believe we have enough articles now to reach a conclusion. A distinction should be made between what 'some' people allege, and what can be proved in terms of legal measures, systematic discrimination and particular cases etc. There are no references to the latter, quite the contrary Palestinian Christians seem to do very well. The data on emigration and their numbers seem very uncertain. So I still think the article needs a serious re-write and/or be re-written to be included under the general entry for Palestinians.
As there is disagreement on this article (whether it should be here, and if so on its contents) I would like for it to be labelled accordingly? Thanks. Tiller1 23:17, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
All the articles point to the current conditions as a reason people emigrate, and list a number of reasons. I'll add a POV warning to the article. Jayjg (talk) 14:55, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
If I may, please, I originally started the article. The main reason we left in 1948 and 1967 was the war and conquest of our land and livelihood. My whole family was/is involved in tourism, (many aspects of it), and of course there has been precious little of that recently.
I have had opportunities to ask why my folks left, why the family could not stay? There was no way. In 1948 our home in West Jerusalem became part of the 'green line', after returning from Lebanon in 1949 until 1967 we settled in the 'French Hill' area, and after that conflict the family business was closed by the Israelis and we left my family refusing to sign the necessary occupation papers. No business, no money, no way we could stay (I was 4 1/2, my siblings were 2 and 11 months). We were able to come to Canada, with the assistance of church groups as we were Christian. Same with others that went to California, Europe, others went to Jordan, and yet others to various Arab countries.
It is a false myth to assume that there is any REAL friction between Muslims and Christian Arabs. ALL WE WANT IS FREEDOM FROM OCCUPATION!
My Godfather recently passed away, I only knew him when I was a baby and in 1984-1985 when I spent some time in Palestine. He had worked his whole life in the Catholic church. His widow is selling the home in Jerusalem, why? Because of the Apartheid wall, and her inability to see her remaining family.
Thus this article should stay, and explain our own Christian Diaspora within the larger context of the Palestinian Diaspora. Many Palestinian Christians are simply not able to remain anymore, precisley because of the occupation and lack of any resolution to a conflict that we are slowly losing anyway. Many keep telling me anyway, do not get your hopes up, if a Palestinian state is made, it will end up being an Islamic State, and I do not buy that. We, Palestinians (and especially the Jerusalemites) were/are, traditionally, the most liberal, educated, and most accepting of other cultures, due to interaction with the West throughout history.
JMHO,Joseph 03:43, May 3, 2005 (UTC)


Maybe you'd be interested in improving the article on Arab Christians as well.Yuber 00:18, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
Well I had a quick look, and I think it could be improved, I will but can't now. I will post thoughts, suggestions, and examples on the relevant talk pages first. Then we can work in changes. Sound good? Joseph 00:40, May 4, 2005 (UTC)

Some changes in context[edit]

I stumbled upon this entry while actually doing research for another one. Being from Palestine, I felt I should correct a lot of contextual gaps.

The Palestinian Christians are a group of Palestinians who follow Christianity. They make up 6% population, according to Bernard Sabella.

There should be some better sources other than that one article.

Most Palestinian Christians see themselves as Arab Christians, although some, in a similar way to the Lebanese Maronites, reject this label and claim to be descended from people who were present before the coming of the Arabs.

These two concepts are not mutually exclusive. Those who consider themselves Arab now claim so as belonging to the Arabic-speaking world, even if their ancestry is not beduin Arab (which it mostly isn't).

This is reflected in the large number of prominent Palestinians that are Christian, including Hanan Ashrawi, Edward Said, George Habash, and Raymonda Tawil, mother of Yassir Arafat's wife Suha.

Raymonda Tawil was famous long before her daughter married Arafat, she should not be listed here solely as his mother-in-law

Some explain the difference between Christians' and Muslims' rate of emigration not by personal preference but by the idea that Christian emigrants are usually more successful in being accepted in historically Christian Western countries than Muslim ones; others suggest that the increasing influence of Islamism in Palestinian politics and society is perceived as threatening to Palestinian Christians. A third reason given is the alleged mismanagement and condescending attitude towards Arab faithful by the Greek-speaking and largely Greek-born leadership of the Jerusalem Orthodox Church.

What does "the difference between Christians' and Muslims' rate of emigration" mean in this context? It wasn't referred to earlier in the text in order for it to be explained here. Define first before explaining it. The third reason I deleted, because although it is a point of major friction between local Palestinians and the Greek church, it is by no means a factor for emigration.

There has been a substantial amount of anti-Christian incidents carried out in areas governed by the Palestinian Authority.

"A substantial amount" needs to be substantiated.

Many claim that this represents a pattern of deliberate mistreatment by the PA;

This is highly doubtful unless can be verified by reliable sources - that it is a deliberate pattern - since there are quite a few high-profile officials in the PA (not those mentioned in this article).

According to some Christian sources, Palestinian Islamists in the West bank are using violence and threats of terror to scare Christians out of Palestinian controlled area. This is discussed more fully in the article on Persecution of Christians.

Again, this needs to be sourced before being reinserted - In reality, even Hamas has some Christians on its candidates' list for the upcoming parliamentary elections. Ramallite (talk) 16:02, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Partisan links[edit]

From WP:V "In general, sources of dubious reliability are sources with a poor reputation for fact-checking, or with no fact-checking facilities or editorial oversight." Many of the links recently added fall under this category, since they are not researched or verifiable but exist solely to propagate a "f*** the Palestinians" concept. Also, an obscure radio talk show host's personal opinions are not encyclopedic material. We do not go on the Israel article and insert some malicious comment made by an Islamic imam in London. Also, the founders of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, some of the more radical wings of the PLO, are Palestinian Christians. Wikipedia is not meant to be another standbyus.com outlet or a "f*** the Palestinians" forum. For that, we have enough hate-mongering sites around the internet. Ramallite (talk) 13:18, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

In that case do a quick Google search of "Palestinian Christians treatment", see what you get. It is not like I pick and choose. Seems to me like someone is trying to hide reality... --Shamir1 22:32, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Possibly some of these links could be put in if the article had a section as such of "Allegations of mistreatment" maybe? JoshuaZ 18:16, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
There are already 5 external links that discuss the treatment of Palestnian Christians which I think is relatively too much for an article this short. Another problem with the links that Shamir1 is adding are unreliable and very biased, why would we feature and advertise web sites like that if we are building a neutral and disinterested encyclopedia? Wikipedia is not Fox News, period. -Inahet 19:19, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Inserted comment[edit]

This comment:

The number of Christian Palestinians worldwide is much higher than 10%. About 10 years ago, Christians constituted about 15-20% of the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) population.

was inserted improperly in the references section, and is unsubstantiated. Rather than just delete it in my reversion, I thought I'd put it here, in case anyone wants to take it and make it a legit addition. Akradecki 03:12, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

The Numbers[edit]

Reliable estimates of the number of Arab Christians, which in any case, just as the number of all Arabs, especially Muslim Arabs, depends on the definition of "Arab" used, vary. Today Christians only make up 9.2% of the population of the Near East. In Lebanon they now number about 39% of the population, in Syria they make up about 10 to 15%, in the Palestinian territories before the creation of Israel estimates range as high as 40%, but due to mass emigration the contemporary figure is 3.8%, and in Israel Arab Christians constitute 2.1% (or roughly 10% of the Israeli Arab population). In Egypt, they constitute about 6% of the population. Most North and South American and Australian Arabs (about two-thirds) are Arab Christians, particularly from Syria, the Palestinian territories, and Lebanon.

- (1998) Christian Communities in the Middle East. Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-829388-7.

- https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.128.77.116 (talk) 21:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC).

Thats a lie that they made up anywhere close to that in the Mandate, given how the Mandate Palestine page says that in mandate Palestine, there were "1,061,270 Muslims, 553,600 Jews, 135,550 Christians and 14,100 people of other groups" What you might mean to say is that "Fifty to sixty thousand Palestinian Christians, comprising 35 percent of all Christians in pre1948 mandatory Palestine, were among the refugees'"Tallicfan20 (talk) 07:51, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

help me with edits[edit]

help me with formatting christian palestinian edits

hello rjwilmsi, I am tioeliecer, I had info. to add to article, but because I access through cybercafe, I hadn´t enough time to edit my contributions. Help me with this: A Gaza Baptist Church Seized: link: http://www.comeandsee.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=781

Palestine: Palestinian gunmen burn Qalqiliya YMCA http://www.comeandsee.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=768

Palestine: Bible Society library bombed in Gaza : link:http://www.comeandsee.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=796 And on a reported dead link: change this: 17^ Five churches bombed and attacked AP via Yahoo! News 16 September 2006 (Link dead as of 15 January 2007) for this http://www.comeandsee.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=769

You can add these: http://www.religioustolerance.org/ata01.htm http://healtheland.wordpress.com/2007/02/11/palestinian-christians-being-persecuted-versus-real-christian-persecution/

My personal background is: I`m evangelical, no zionist, Venezuelan.

Clear info needed on religious tension[edit]

I read this article because I was looking for a clear overview on the claims that Christians are persecuted by Islamic extremists in Palestine. There were a couple of issues in particular that I thought would have been interesting to read about -

  • The position of Christian political figures now that secular pan-Arabism is increasingly being replaced by political Islam as the force to which people look for a solution to the occupation.
  • A comprehensive list of attacks on Christian Arabs in Israel and the Occupied Territories - by any group, Muslim or Jewish.
  • The nature of Christian Palestinian Nationalism, especially when compared to the Palestinian Nationalism espoused by Secular and Muslim Palestinian public figures.

I hope my message doesn't lead to more uncomfortable discussions on this page - I understand that the impact of the Israeli occupation on the standard of living of Palestinians of any creed is impossible to ignore, but I would like to hear about other factors as well. Rupa zero (talk) 00:38, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


I am not a reliable source, and i am trying to find a reliable source for my follwoing info. but I am Palestinian, an di am Christian, and I don't even remember anyone prosecuting me for that other than the Israelis. I have a lot of myslims friends, and they treat me the same way they treat their other muslims friends. --Michael1408 20:02, 26 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael1408 (talkcontribs)

Christian Broadcasting Network[edit]

According to the Christian Broadcasting Network, feeling threatened or pressured to conform to the agenda of fundamentalist Islamic elements among Palestinians has been cited as a reason for emigration from territories controlled by the Palestinian Authority.[11] The Palestinian Authority administration, which was designed as a democratic government and includes Christians at many levels, has also been marked by weakness and corruption, which allowed some anti-Christian activities to go unpunished.[citation needed]


Why is the US based Christian Broadcasting Network cited. If christians were prosecuted i would believe that you'll find tons of articles written by real Palestinian christians saying so. That is not the case. I am a Paletsinian christian and i was never prosecuted, who lived there until recently, no one cares what religion I follow. --Michael1408 20:16, 26 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael1408 (talkcontribs)

CBN (Christian Broadcasting Network) is Pat Robertson's Christian-Zionist television ministry! Robertson is no friend to Palestinian Christians. He has stated numerous times that Israel must extend from the Mediterranean to the Tigress River and that Jews are Chosen and Arabs are the illegitimate seed from the lesser Rahab. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.109.235.61 (talk) 15:39, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Israeli military[edit]

Even though many US Evangelicals and others are very pro-Israel, there is the delicate problem of the unfair treatment of Palestinian Christians by the Israeli military. During the Orthodox Easter celebrations, Palestinian Christians were denied their right to worship freely in Jerusalem; they were not allowed to arrive to the Orthodox Patriarchate where celebrations normally take place. [15] ADM (talk) 09:51, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Citation problem[edit]

In the article, the "After Saturday comes Sunday" phrase is translated to "after the fundamentalists finish the Jews, they'll deal with the Christians.", using this[16] as the source. Problem is, this quote, as the article explains, is an indirect interpretation. The article says "sometimes interpreted as", hence the mention of "fundamentalists" when the Arabic phrase doesn't have that word in the sentence. I've removed the "fundamentalists" word in the slogan, without compromising verifiability, in my opinion. Eik Corell (talk) 18:39, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Last edits[edit]

I do not agree with the last edits and do not appreciate them at all; why did you delete them? even though they were sourced from many different websites, including Christianity today which is a very well known and objective website?

why did you delete the origin of the Christians?

I can smell a political bias in these un-explained edits, especially because you deleted sourced information, and did not give one single reason for that!--82.213.38.2 (talk) 07:53, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Then why do you keep deleting the sourced information about Ameer Makhoul? why do you add just of side, which is consider it to be very biased and promotes one point of view of the issue and delete the other side, which is sourced for no reason or explanation?

I start its a shame to use your power as an admin to shut up others and promote your own views in this respected site! wikipedia is an objective site, and does not and should not be a tool to promote any bias!

I ask you to revert all the last edits.

Thanks!--82.213.38.2 (talk) 07:53, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Who is a Palestinian Christian?[edit]

Many of the people listed on this page, while Christian, have not proclaimed themselves to be Christian with an online verifiable source. It seems to be a bit subjective. Hence, the inclusion of Elinor Joseph who was born to Christian parents (which is the very same wording for many of the sources for the people listed here).

Is this sufficient? If not, let's begin to source each person listed and without proof of self-declaration of being Christian, we should remove them. Soosim (talk) 16:40, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

there is NO proof that Elinor Joseph is from a Palestinian decent, the article says that she is an Arab christian, not a Palestinian christian, so she could be an Arab from a Lebanese or Syrian decent. moreover, there is nothing notable about her, and she did nothing outstanding to be added to such a list... joining an occupation military does not make anyone notable--213.6.7.107 (talk) 19:13, 13 February 2011 (UTC) she is not a writes or an author or a actor or a film maker or a politician or a clergy or anything even close to that. she is a regular person--213.6.7.107 (talk) 19:13, 13 February 2011 (UTC) Hence, we question your motivation behind this!--213.6.7.107 (talk) 19:14, 13 February 2011 (UTC)


why do you insist on adding her, while on the other hand there are thousands of other notable and famous Christians Palestinians who should be added to the list?--213.6.7.107 (talk) 19:17, 13 February 2011 (UTC)--213.6.7.107 (talk) 19:17, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Elinor Joseph is just an ordinary militant of the IOF, not a leader, a captain or even a general! she did not do anything outstanding! never won a prize! she did not contribute anything to her people or to humanity! therefore, she does not meet even the minimum requirements to be notable!--213.6.17.166 (talk) 16:46, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

I reverted your edits, 213... and I'm quite certain in being right in doing that. The person's notability is not a matter of military rank or headshots, it's a simple matter of WP:N and this isn't even about creating an article about her, just a mention. You, on the other hand, are being uncivil, and I suggest you refrain from calling other users vandals unless their edits are done in bad faith. Don't lose your temper, it's just bits and bytes like everything else in this fabulous world we call the Internet. Zakhalesh (talk) 17:01, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

and I'm quite certain in being right in doing that! the list contains well known people who contributed to their people and to humanity, as there is nothing notable adding someone who joined a military! if so, lets add the first palestinian worked at Coca Cola, first Palestinian studies at Oxford, first Palestinian joined a sports club, first Palestinian bought a car! this is none sense!--213.6.17.166 (talk) 17:39, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Doesn't quite work like that. As I said, your opinions on who's notable and who's not does not matter. Zakhalesh (talk) 17:49, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

i would say the same exact thing to you!--213.6.17.166 (talk) 18:21, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

IPS[edit]

Why is an Inter Press Service article being removed repeatedly ? IPS is fine as a source. The ext links need cleaning up in general and this source would better used as an inline citation but I haven't seen a valid reason cited for the removal of the IPS article. Sean.hoyland - talk 16:59, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Suha Arafat[edit]

Suha Arafat is NOT Christian. She converted to Islam around her marriage to Yasser Arafat. There are no sources indicating she has converted back or renounced Islam. Removed her name from Political Power. Ecthelion 8 (talk) 19:45, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Source : http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35240-2004Nov8.html Ecthelion 8 (talk) 19:49, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Palestinian Christians, or Christians in Palestine?[edit]

It's a little unclear what is meant by a Palestinian Christian in this article. Is Palestinian intended to have an ethnic, linguistic, or geographical connotation? Much of the article seems to imply an ethnic and/or linguistic intent, but then the list of Notable Palestinian Christians includes Greeks, Armenians, etc. who happen to live in (or in some cases just near) Palestine (including Israel). They may speak Arabic, but it is clearly a second language. This contrast between the text of the article and the list needs to be resolved (either by expanding the article to cover non-Arabic Christians in Palestine, or by deleting the Greeks, Armenians, etc. from the list). MayerG (talk) 03:25, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

The history section starts with "The earliest Christian communities in Palestine were of Jewish descent. Those were joined in the first and second centuries by Greeks.[13]"

I cannot see inside the book cited and don't have acces to it. Can whoever posted it repost the relevant quotes here?

This seems like a massive oversimplication. Though many early Christians were Jewish, there were non-Jews amon them as well, and its not clear that Jewish was an ethnic identity at this time. [17]

I will keep looking more sources discussing this issue, but it seems that characterizing this group in ethnic or racial terms is going to be something of a challenge. Tiamuttalk 19:48, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Strange, I thought the first page was viewable. Anyway you could use this link to start off. My understanding is that Christianity in Palestine was considered a Jewish sect in its beginnings so it was unlikely that gentiles joined it until not before Bar Kokhva's revolt when "jewish christians" started distancing themselves from other Jews to avoid persecution. This is my own OR though, so if you have better sourced info I would not dare argue against them.--Rafy talk 20:39, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
Only the first two sentences are viewable in that link, and I can't determine what the source means by them in relation to this topic. I found a good source here. Chapter 7 as a whole should be read. Again, I think the text we have is probably ncorrect or at th very least, a massive oversimplication. I hve never researched this subject before though, so I'd like to do more reading before diving nto edit. Will present useful sources as they arise. In the meantime, I think our first two sentences in the history section houlde removed until we can be sure we are getting it right. Tiamuttalk 17:23, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
A good source can be found in two books by Stemberger and McGonigle. I wish that you rewrite the paragraph instead of removing it--Rafy talk 11:01, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

geographical area of Palestine[edit]

Is this verbiage necessary? Or if someone is nervous that without this pleonastic phrasing (all toponyms refer to a geographical area) someone might confuse 'Palestine' with the West Bank, simply writing 'historic Palestine' would clarify any equivocaton. Whatever, 'geographical area of Palestine' is really cleft-thumbed English here.Nishidani (talk) 13:31, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Muslim abuse of Palestinian Christians[edit]

This Wikipedia article is distorted by Orwellian magnitude. Nearly all Internet articles about Christian exodus from Palestine identify Muslim abuse of Christians as the main reason. The abuse includes intimidation, beatings, land theft, firebombing of churches and other Christian institutions, denial of employment, economic boycotts, torture, kidnapping, forced marriage, sexual harassment, and extortion. Palestinian Christians face severe repressions when they complain about the abuse, so they prefer not to talk about it. Khaled Abu Toameh is a Muslim journalist, and yet he confirms the Muslim abuse of Palestinian Christians.[1] On the other hand, this Wikipedia article completely ignores the Muslim abuse of Christians. The article says that "The vast majority of Palestinian Christians blame the exodus on Israel."[2] The reference points to Bernard Sabella's article. In fact, Sabella does not claim that Israel is the main reason for the exodus. He says: "But why do Christians leave at a higher rate than the rest of the population? The answer is not simple as it involves interrelated factors and their mutual effects on one another..." Sabella does not mention the Muslim abuse of Palestinian Christians because if he did, he would have to flee Bethlehem for his life. Sabella fears Muslims repressions so much that he does not even mention dhimmitude in a historical chapter about Muslim-Christian relations. One of the sources cited in this Wikipedia article is a Muslim propaganda outfit called Palestinian Centre for Research and Cultural Dialogue. Since Arafat took over administration of the Palestinian territories from Israel, the Christian population has dropped from 15 percent to 2 percent. If Palestinian Christians were fleeing Israeli oppression, why did they leave after the Israelis left? It makes no sense. The only way Israel has fed the exodus of Christians from the Middle East is by withdrawing from territories in Judea, Samaria, Gaza, southern Lebanon and elsewhere. When Israel administered those areas, Christian Arabs lived in safety and security. The truth is the Christian population in Israel has more than quadrupled since 1948 because Israel guarantees religious freedom to everyone.Quinacrine (talk) 22:24, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

I reverted your edits ... the only WP:RS among the articles you added is the Wall Street Journal article. You may add a summary of what it says alongside what Sabella says. hesays the 1948 war accounts for thr majority of the Christian exodus. we should rephrase accordingly in our article and add spmething from the WSJ too. But your edits were overkill. Tiamuttalk 18:15, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
I reverted your edit. You have totally ignored all my sources and the overwhelming evidence that Muslims abuse Christians. Sabella is not a reliable source, and he does not blame Israel. You do not expect someone living in North Korea to criticize North Korean government. For the same reason you cannot expect Sabella to criticize Muslims. I left Sabella as a gesture of compromise, but you have no intention to compromise.Quinacrine (talk) 01:30, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
I have reverted your edit again. After re-reading the sources, its clear not one of them is a reliable source. You can take this issue to WP:RSN to confirm ifyou like. I encourage you to do so before readding this material again. Tiamuttalk 18:21, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
I agree. It seems that any information that criticizes Palestinian Muslims or defends Israel, including primary source material by actual Palestinian Christians alleging abuse, is immediately deleted. I hope we see more tolerance of alternative viewpoints on this page. 76.105.6.149 (talk) 09:07, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

References[edit]

  1. ^ "The Beleaguered Christians in Bethlehem". Gatestone Institute. 2008-5-12. Retrieved 2012-02-07. 
  2. ^ Sabella, Bernard (February 12, 2003). "Palstinian Christians: Challenges and hopes". Al-Bushra Palestinian Christians. 

Sources to add[edit]

Utterly false[edit]

What do you mean by Muslim pressure in the beginning? You somehow imply that Christian Palestenians aren't minding Israeli occupation and intolerance to all of the Palestenians. Check their religious leaders wither it's the Orthodox or the Catholics. The fact is what you are saying is utterly false and only backed by suspecious bias sources. Majority of Christian Palestenians live in the 1948 area because it's where their religious holy land is. The fact is that there aren't any Muslim pressure the only pressure and intolerance is coming from the Israelis. Like any indigious occupied people they will hate their occupiers. That's totally wrong and should be corrected. However, Israeli tolerance to Christian Palestenians is higher than that of their Muslim nationals only because of Israel's public image in the west. But they are still under persecution like Muslim Palestenians. And if you think that they don't resist, they are resisting with Fath back when Fath used to resist under Yasser Arafat, and they also resist with the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.240.76.148 (talk) 20:48, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Sabella[edit]

The Sabella article does not support the assertion in this article that the "vast majority" of Palestinian Christians left during the Nakba. The source says, "Fifty to sixty thousand Palestinian Christians, comprising 35 percent of all Christians in pre1948 mandatory Palestine, were among the refugees." Emigration has been happening since the 19th century (this is mentioned in the source) and continues to the present day (mentioned in the source) but figures are not listed for what percentage of the diaspora is from 1948 and the descendants of those refugees.

Therefore the article, in its present wording, is original research. Chicago Style (without pants) (talk) 04:02, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Christy Anastas[edit]

Why do we have so much on due weight in one paragraph? This lady's family and her whole home town disagree with her. The inhabitance of Betheleham, like all other Christians in Palestine have stated that Israel was the problem not them. In fact, less than two years ago she was on "60 Miniutes" stating how Israel was the problem as well. I don't see the point of having undue weight and pointless info so I have gone and removed it. AcidSnow (talk) 00:00, 23 July 2014 (UTC)