Talk:Perseus

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Naming of this page[edit]

As I have said on my talk page, there are two major meanings that could go here -- the mythological character and the constellation. In general, when one name is derived from the other (as in this case, the constellation from the mythological character), it is our policy to put the original name on the article. →Raul654 20:31, Jul 22, 2004 (UTC)

Yet, the disambiguation page was accepted and used by many. Create an ambiguity when disambiguation existed is useless. Breaking all the links (articles, Talk pages, watchlists and so on) is destructive and is a waste of time for everybody. I can't do it myself, but please reconsider a revert. You're imposing a lot of job to everybody here. (since nothing has obviously been done with the links and the interwikis. At least, that move should have been previoulsly discussed with other users. That is called democracy.Robin des Bois ♘ 02:31, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Hi Robin. The way it is now is better. But, this raises the issue, should the presentation of the article be based on convenience or excellence? If you think about it I think you will agree it should be excellence. Wikipedia has plenty of time and people. What I usually do when I get hung up on an article or issue is take a break from it. Things look different down the road and it saves you a temper tantrum in which you quit or get banned from Wikipedia. And, just because your view didn't prevail doesn't mean this is not a democratic process. Best wishes.Dave 13:19, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

By the way, 'Περσέως' (Perseos) is not a name but the genitive form of the name. Furthermore 'Περσέας' (Perseas) is just a demoted demotic greek version in use only from the year 1980 and on. The -eus ending defines noble origin. The -eas (and in some cases -ias) ending was an attempt of the democratic greek governments to bring down royalist sentiment the years after the end of the colonels junta. Accordingly words like Basileus (King) became basilias and so on and so on... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.89.129.162 (talk) 06:11, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Format[edit]

Hi arbani. I can see that your intent was to move the picture to the right. However your change put the picture all by itself! It looked awful. So I experimented a little and got the text to fill in. I think this is what you had in mind. If not, bring it up again. Best wishes. Thanks.Dave 13:26, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

sorry to inform people that the Greek-Roman gods love Ethiopia. Ethiopia=Aethiopia!?! Scholars USED to say such bias races things of that nature, BUT the more we as a whole research the more we find out that Black Africans had a place in Greco-Roman myths and lifestyles. moshun11 moultrie11@hotmail.com

Notes[edit]

"It is the sole surviving line from Aeschylus' lost play." Sorry if I'm being obtuse - but what is the sole surviving line from the play? This comment seems to be standing all on its own and doesn't seem to refer to anything... - Adaru 13:56, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

"Like a wild boar he entered the cave" is the line. Is it better now?

This is the best Greek mythological character page I have seen so far on Wikipedia. Good job whoever did this, it has better information than my textbook. Thanks!

Historical Perseus[edit]

Is all the speculation about historical Perseus based on Kerenyi or what? A quick flip through OCD and a couple of my books doesn't reveal any suggestion of a plausible historical connection. If it's a single author's theory, then that theory needs to be more clearly demarcated, so it doesn't look like a scholarly consensus. Stan 22:05, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

There is no speculation of this kind in Kerenyi, The heroes of the Greeks. --Wetman 05:29, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Grammar Mistakes[edit]

Will somebody plese go through and edit all the grammar mistakes, please? I especially took notice of lack of capitalization after a period. like this. and it is annoying.

Horses?[edit]

"The Medusa was horselike in archaic representations[4], the terrible filly of a mare— Demeter, the Mother herself— who was in her mare nature when Poseidon assumed stallion form and covered her. The issue of her foaling were the gorgon sisters."

This story needs a source if it's going to be here--it doesn't appear on the pages for the Medusa or for the Gorgons, and the only related information Wikipedia has (or that I know of) is that Persephone was conceived when Demeter was in the form of a horse. I can't think of having read anthing like this about the Medusa anywhere nor can I find it online. PoetrixViridis 23:19, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

The little number 4 in the text above is blue because it would link an inquiring reader to a footnote, in this case to one reading "Kerenyi 1959:48". This means Karl Kerenyi's 1959 publication, page 48. Under References that reader would see the title, The Heroes of the Greeks, one of the most familiar books on Greek myth. I've added the passage from Pausanias to the note. If it's the Poseidon-as-stallion:Demeter-as-mare that is causing resistance here, I recommend the standard Kerenyi, The Gods of the Greeks, especially the section "Demeter, and Poseidon's stallion-marriage". We should certainly add the multiple equine connections to Gorgon or Medusa, a Wikipedian oversight. --Wetman 03:09, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Corrections about the fight for Andromeda[edit]

I have corrected a glaring error in the fight for Andromeda. Someone had evidently entered the name of Agnor as the person who Perseus fought for his future wife, Andromeda in Aethiopia. Using Ovid's [[Metamorphoses]http://www.tkline.freeserve.co.uk/Metamorph5.htm#_Toc64106308] one finds that the uncle of Andromeda is called Phineus, not Agnor. With this change, one can visit the site listed, for further insight into this particular event in the story of Perseus.

Rmalmeida 10:37, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


Perseus and Egypt[edit]

Perhaps, Perseus originally was an admiral of Egyptian Navy.

Consequently,

Perseus born in Chemmis (a ancient Egyptian city near Panopolis) (see Herodotus Histories). He was, originally, an admiral of Egyptian Navy.

He defeated Gorgons, an pirate people ( ~ Careans) of South Asia Minor or Cyprus (e.g. Golgi, an ancient Cypriot city) and killed its queen Medusa. So, he became famous.

Later, he undertook (by Egyptian nationalists) to assassinate Zannanza, an Hittites prince, son of Suppiluliuma I.

He should give Ankhesenamen ( = Andromeda) to Ay (= Phineus) but, indead, he drive Andromeda and his fleet to Argos of Greece.

--IonnKorr 14:35, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

"Some" versions[edit]

"...note: some versions feature Perseus trying to use the head of Medusa to turn the monster to stone, but it did not work because the monster lacked eyes and couldn't see the head, so he slew it with his sword, instead.." What version would this be? Please reference this and return it to the text. Xenia Warrior Princess doesn't count.--Wetman 19:15, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Gorgon's picture[edit]

The picture adds significantly to the article. it is of high resolution and it should remain. All interested users please leave your comments here. Thanks. Dr.K. 02:50, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

You took the photo, so your opinion on it is less than useful. To the contrary, it is not particularly high resolution, it is framed poorly, poorly lit, has poor contrast, and the central figure that we're supposed to be looking at is all but impossible to see thanks to your poor photography skills. I've removed it, and, you, as the person who took the picture, have no right to put it back against objections, as that's a clear violation of Wikipedia policies against vanity, conflict of interest, self-promotion and so forth. DreamGuy 21:16, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
I cannot have an intelligent conversation with a person who uses adjectives like crappy and unsubstantiated allegations such as wanting my photo to be used out of vanity etc. But hopefully other users will not stand for a single bad mannered user to dictate their taste to them and in the process deprive them from an excellent example of an original gorgon picture from early Greek antiquity. Currently as it stands you are in the minority. Another user (Wetman) obviously does not agree with you. Does he also do it out of vanity? And how many people do you need to tell you before you let them enjoy the picture? Because your personal opinion is that you don't like it you cannot possibly impose your opinion on Wkipedia. Talking about vanity! As far as poor photography skills at least I tried to help Wikipedia by taking the picture. Obviously I was not counting on self righteous, revert at any cost, destructive editors, with low resolution computer screens , on a mission to impose their taste on everyone else. Dr.K. 22:18, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
As far as this nonsense about poor contrast this is exactly as it appears in real life at the Corfu museum. If you visited the museum in person like I did you would know this exact contrast and lighting conditions prevail at the museum. It has nothing to do with poor photography skills. In fact an almost identical unfree picture that was used in the past looked exactly the same. Ask Carnildo about it. We had long conversations about unfree images together. Dr.K. 23:05, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Finally this image is used in the French, Italian and Hebrew Wikipedias [[1]]. I don't think I uploaded it there also! Dr.K. 23:29, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
I will not revert any further out of respect for process. I will refer this to comments from users and possibly arbitration, as I have better things to do than edit warring with deletionists without a cause. Dr.K. 18:08, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

For the record[edit]

I am being accused that I try to put the image of the Gorgon pediment to promote myself and out of ego. Nothing could be further from the truth. I simply replaced many unfree images with GFDL ones after long conversations with Jkelly and Carnildo and donated them to Wikipedia in order to assist the project. Here is just a sample of some of my correspondence with Jkelly about the donated pictures: User_talk:Tasoskessaris#Image:KerkyraDimarheio.jpg_listed_for_deletion. Dr.K. 20:02, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Vote?[edit]

For interested users please vote here to keep or not the Gorgon pediment picture from the Corfu Museum. See dicussion above. Dr.K. 20:02, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

  • I'd rather not see the image here; we already have several pictures showing Perseus depicted in art with the gorgon, and they are generally of higher quality (both the picture, and the art pictured) than this one. This one shows the gorgon before its head is removed, but while that may be of value in Gorgon, I don't see how it's really important here. Mangojuicetalk 17:42, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
  • I think that the image is fine, but this article does indeed already have a lot of illustration. Jkelly 23:07, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
The image is at Gorgon anyway, so it's still available to the reader; but what would induce Mangojuice and User:Jkelly, who have never edited this article, to find the article, have an opinion here, and vote on it? --Wetman 20:35, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
This debate ended in June. At the risk of re-igniting this unfortunate discussion I will reply to this; I requested these third party opinions and they accepted to offer their input. These two administrators were involved in other image related cases with me and I value their expertise. Dr.K. 21:03, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I missed the whole scuffle above! --Wetman 02:20, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, it happens even as I thought this dog was sleeping! Let's put it back to bed. Take care. Dr.K. 02:30, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

"Hegemony"[edit]

The introduction to this article reads: ...first of the mythic heroes of Greek mythology whose exploits helped establish the hegemony of Zeus and the Twelve Olympians in the mainland of Greece.

Uh, how? If that's a reference to the Titanomachia or Gigantomachia, it's simply untrue. If it's suppose to mean something in relation to rise of Olympian religion, then it needs to be clarified. I'll remove it until it's otherwise improved. 76.180.148.27 02:22, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Ceto/Cetus[edit]

Are Ceto and Cetus really the same monster? Ceto is a maternal creature and is not described as evil, only her brood is, and only the more monstrous members. She represents a primal force of nature, while Cetus is a ravening brute sent by Poseidon to ravage Greece out of vengeance. They appear to be completely different entities. Also, Ceto is never slain by anyone like Cetus is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.160.254.4 (talk) 02:13, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Kraken?[edit]

Kraken is the name of a gargantuan sea monster in Norse myth, not Greek. The sea monster in this myth is Cetus.68.203.14.51 (talk) 19:13, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
In certain earlier Greek legends, Cetus also represented the gates of the underworld, just like the Kraken so the myth is not so wrong at al,because Cetus was a creature of Hades and Kraken a creature of Loki,both of this gods of the underworld. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Levisjani (talkcontribs) 20:43, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Bad references[edit]

Many of the items in the reflist under section references are not references, but instead footnotes. Section References are for external sources supporting and verifying the article. F.ex.

Perseos and Perseas (Greek: Περσέως, Περσέας are not used in English.

is just a footnote that doesn't verify. Instead of a <ref> a more specific <ref group="note"> should be used.

^ Hesiod, Theogony 277

is an acceptable reference. However:

^ Catasterismi

is not. The article Catasterismi contains NIL-NADA about Andromeda neither Perseus. It is a See also item. By the way, Wikipedia cannot be used to reference Wikipedia per policy. Real references shall be verifying references like is the custom in academic sources. The current references section is more like a bunch of notes of this and that. ... said: Rursus (mbork³) 21:18, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I fixed the "notes" problem. Remaining trouble is that quite a few references are in the format:
^ 12.16.1
which in the text refers to Pausanias. It would be desirable if the references be more like in the format:
^ Pausanias 12.16.1
Todo... ... said: Rursus (mbork³) 21:30, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Athena, or Minerva, and Medusa[edit]

According to the Gutenberg edition (trans Riley) Ovid doesn't mention "Athena" at all, only "Minerva", but the quote marks in the article are misplaced. Perseus's account reads: "The sovereign of the sea is said to have deflowered her [sc. Medusa] in the Temple of Minerva. The daughter of Jove turned away, and covered her chaste eyes with her shield. And that this might not be unpunished, she changed the hair of [Medusa] into hideous snakes...that she may alarm her surprised foes with terror." That's probably too much for here, and too much edited, but the article needs to be sharpened to identify what's a quote and what's not.

In an attempt to clarify, the Greek / Roman equivalent "Athena" / "Minerva" added. New selection from the quote added, closing quote marks at the end to show "what's a quote and what's not". --Old Moonraker (talk) 12:40, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

hi —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.88.249.134 (talk) 19:10, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Random Comments[edit]

In order of appearance, and leaving aside lots of comments: Danae was not the eponymous ancestor of the Dannans. Her own ancestor Danaus was.

Good. "the archetype of all the Danaans." with ftnote "Kerenyi 1959:45; see also Danaus, the eponymous ancestor."

Medusa is portrayed as a centaur in exactly one (1) archaic vase. Otherwise she is a Gorgon as Gorgons are usually portrayed (with all their variations).

Changed to "at least one archaic representation". The horse nature of Medusa is brought in because of the context of gifts of horses.
Why is such a connection required, I wonder? Horses are a typical aristocratic gift--and they were for the bride price of a woman named Hippodameia, which seems apropos enough. But when the ancient sources specify, they say that Perseus just came up with the idea of the Gorgon's head...well, off the top of his head, seemingly as a boasting equivalent of "ask for whatever you want--I'd even give you a billion dollars."

Medusa was never, to my knowledge, ID'd as the daughter of Demeter & Poseidon. The offspring of stallion-Poseidon and mare-Demeter was the awesomely magical horse Areion.

On another occasion. The equine brother of Medusa is Chrysaor.--Wetman (talk) 00:53, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
Source? Greek myth is complicated, and none of us can know every variant, but this sounds off to me. Certainly in the early sources I can check at hand, there is no indication Chrysaor is anything but a man/giant (his brother Pegasus is a different matter--but his horse nature surely comes from Poseidon Hippios, not his maternal line), though there is an older rather speculative line of thinking that supposes he might originally have been a boar. His name implies human form (the wielder of the golden blade), as does his marriage to the Oceanid Callirrhoe and his fathering of Geryoneus.

"and for a long time Perseus wandered aimlessly, without hope of ever finding the Gorgons or of being able to accomplish his mission." This is romantic embroidery that doesn't have much to do with ancient sources.

Fair enough. Deleted.

"the gods Hermes, Athena, and Hades came to his rescue." Can't think of a source in which Hades does anything. His helmet, which is referred to just below, is involved, but Apollodorus, to take one example, says the nymphs gave it to Perseus, along with the kibisis and the winged sandals (compare the end of this paragraph, where this information is conveyed in the quote from Kerenyi). And I don't think any Greek sources say that the shield from just below was Athena's.

Good. The spring-nymphs it is.

"After he was done with the Graeae sisters he threw the tooth and the eye into a lake." Apollodorus says he gave the eye & tooth back.

Good, Credited Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheke 2. 37-39.

The Perseidae were the descendants of Perseus & Andromeda through all their children, not just Perses. Not even sure Perses can be included, since he is left in Ethiopia and the Persians are said to come from his branch of the family, and Perseidae in the technical sense refers to the Greek lineage near Argos.

Good. Clarified, with ftnote listing all the children.

"consort of Danae" in the usual version, Perseus puts Dictys on the throne, but Dictys isn't married to or otherwise romantically linked to Danae. Perseus normally takes Danae with him when he leaves to go back to Argos.

More than happy to be corrected on the above, but would like to see sources. There are more oddities, but I'm out of time! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.234.136.19 (talk) 00:07, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Good. Made corrections as I've noted in each instance above and gave references.--Wetman (talk) 00:53, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

I am pretty sure that Perseus is son of Posiedon NOT Zeus. So why is he listed otherwise? —Preceding unsigned comment added by EricTurner (talkcontribs) 21:24, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Changes to Overcoming the Gorgon[edit]

I just edited a fair chunk of the article, in the section Overcoming the Gorgon. I was fairly unfamiliar with the subject of Perseus, and found the section quite frustrating to read. I've stated some of the edits here and my justification for them, in the hopes that others would consider them before reverting. My changes have been applied to Wetman's commit on the 5th April 2010.

"large and prosperous banquet... " The fact that it's a banquet, and is large suggests that you must be prosperous to hold it. Omitted prosperous.

"wherein each guest would expected to bring him a horse..." Not clearly worded. Can be interpreted as "the guest should bring a horse, so that the guest can woo Hippodamia".

"The Medusa was horse-like in at least one..." Could not see the value in keeping this passage. The article is not about Medusa. Knowing about Medusa's horse-like form is unnecessary to understanding how Perseus came to kill her. Consider placing this in Medusa's page, possibly? When removing the sentence regarding Medusa's horse-like form, the accompanying reference regarding Poseidon and Demeter becomes pointless. Removed the reference as well.

"deflowered by Neptune... " Felt the language was a bit on the childish side. Replaced "deflowered by" with "lay with". Regarding the use of the names "Neptune" and "Minerva", there are no uses of Roman names in the rest of the article. Why use them here? It's very odd to be reading an article on what you believe to be Greek myth, and suddenly you are confronted with names of Roman gods. It just serves to confuse those new to the subject (of Roman and Greek myths). Removed the usage of the Roman names in the main text for consistency's sake, but left the note stating Ovid's use of the Roman names in case it's significant.

"For such a heroic quest..." As a person not that familiar with the Perseus legend the next two paragraphs were so confusing I felt it needed a rewrite. Without a good book on Greek mythology to hand, I had to navigate to other parts of the Web to get a better idea of what the original author was trying to describe. I got the impression there were two conflicting outlines of the myth (maybe more), but it wasn't clear where one account ended and another began. I'm afraid I don't have copies of Aeschylus, Nonnus, or the Pseudo-Apollodorus, so I pieced together what I could, and stripped away text I couldn't make sense of. I have included references to the sites I read so others could see where I got the information from, but I recognise that these sources may not be credible. Nevertheless I felt that they did provide some clarification which matched with the Wikipedia article; namely that Perseus visited the Graeae to find the location of the orchard that the Hesperides tended, not the reverse (the Hesperides told Perseus the location of the Graeae sisters). If a credible source (Nonnus?) differs, it may be worth pointing this out in a note, or a separate section dedicated to outlining differences in accounts. Including it in the main passage confounds readers unfamiliar with the legend of Perseus.

I'm not an expert on Greek mythology by any means, so I realise I may have got things horribly wrong with these edits. -- Discboy 00:28, 7 April 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Discboy (talkcontribs)


In Popular Culture[edit]

Is the popular culture section been discussed? Because if anything, Perseus's page would lend itself to brief discussion of how Perseus is represented in modern culture - movies, tv, popular fiction, etc. --RossF18 (talk) 23:26, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

MTV's puff for Clash of the Titans babbles in passing, "Perseus, a Greek god whose family is slaughtered and who then forms an army to defeat the world-conquering ambitions of Hades." Well, no, no, no, and no. Confusing that "Perseus" with the actual Greek myth won't aid the Wikipedia reader.--Wetman (talk) 11:44, 2 April 2010 (UTC)


The oracle fulfilled[edit]

The fifth paragraph reads:

In a third tradition, Acrisius had been driven into exile by his brother, Proetus. Perseus turned the brother into stone with the Gorgon's head and restored Acrisius to the throne. Having killed Acrisius, Perseus, who was next in line for the throne, gave the kingdom to Megapenthes ("great mourning") son of Proetus and took over Megapenthes' kingdom of Tiryns.

As you can read, in the second sentence Perseus kills Proetus and returns the throne to Acrisius. The next sentence starts as if Perseus had killed Acrisius, so when and how did that happened? Asinthior (talk) 16:14, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

I was just about to ask the same question, but checking the references I see it comes from Pausanias (the paragraph before the one linked to). It seems it was another quoit accident:
Afterwards Acrisius, learning that Perseus himself was not only alive but accomplishing great achievements, retired to Larisa on the Peneus. And Perseus, wishing at all costs to see the father of his mother and to greet him with fair words and deeds, visited him at Larisa. Being in the prime of life and proud of his inventing the quoit, he gave displays before all, and Acrisius, as luck would have it, stepped unnoticed into the path of the quoit. (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0160%3Abook%3D2%3Achapter%3D16%3Asection%3D2)
I've got to go out now, but I'll edit the main text later. Wardog (talk) 09:41, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Variant and kingdom[edit]

1. The article says "He had just invented the quoit and was making a public display of them when Acrisius, who happened to be visiting, stepped into the trajectory of the quoit and was killed: thus the oracle was fulfilled. This is an unusual variant on the story of such a prophecy, as Acrisius' actions did not, in this variant, cause his death."

Who wrote this variant?

2. The article on the Kings of Argos says "Perseus, who never reigns at Argos, trades the kingdom of Argos for that of Tiryns (which had been ruled over by Megapenthes) and establishes the city and kingdom of Mycenae."

The article on Perseus talks about Perseus being a King of Micenae. Was he also the King of Tiryns? If he wasn't the King of Argos, why is he listed in the article on the Kings of Argos?

ICE77 (talk) 06:33, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Graves[edit]

Graves' inane speculations need to be presented as speculations, and not as authoritative facts. Because they're surely not. 192.91.147.34 (talk) 03:13, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 27 May 2012[edit]

Canadian artist Shary Boyle created a sculpture of Perseus slaying Medusa in 2008 entitled To Colonize the Moon. http://www.sharyboyle.com/sculpture-A.htm It is a response to the Foggini Bronze Collection and is one of two new porcelain works commissioned by the Art Gallery of Ontario for their permanent collection.

The sculptures respond to the Greek myths The Rape of Proserpine and Perseus Slaying Medusa, as encountered in Foggini’s 17th century Italian bronzes from the AGO’s historical collection. This special project was instigated as one of a series of contemporary interventions, marking the AGO’s grand opening after Frank Gehry’s redesign.

http://www.sharyboyle.com/pictures/sculpture/C-WebMay09.jpg http://www.sharyboyle.com/pictures/sculpture/A-WebMay09.jpg http://www.sharyboyle.com/pictures/sculpture/D-WebMay09.jpg

Elladawn (talk) 16:26, 27 May 2012 (UTC) Ella Dawn

Unless covered by independent Reliable Sources (RS), this would not meet Wikipedia:External links guidelines, specifically Wikipedia:Spam. If you can cite such coverage, please reactivate the request. Dru of Id (talk) 17:33, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Thesatirus vs perseus[edit]

This mayn't be the all true undercover story but also beheaded madusa because she appeared not rude just unchaste. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.244.89.98 (talk) 16:39, 4 December 2013 (UTC)