Talk:The Falcon, Chester

A fact from The Falcon, Chester appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 28 July 2009 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that when the public house The Falcon (pictured) was a town house owned by Sir Richard Grosvenor in 1643, it was the first building to enclose its portion of the Chester Rows?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2009/July.

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Title[edit]

The creator of this article questioned the title change from "The Falcon, Chester" to its current title "The Falcon (public house)", the following discussion is from my talk page and was moved here to encourage others to participate in the discussion about the title.--RadioFan (talk) 21:32, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure your move is a good idea. There are plenty of public houses called The Falcon (or variations), and when any of the others become articles there will be a disambig problem. With the original title there can be no problem because there is only one The Falcon in Chester. Peter I. Vardy (talk) 16:13, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

But will they meet notability guidelines? How many have received awards? How many are listed buildings? If it becomes a problem in the future, this article can always be retitled but there isn't any need for "Chester" in the title for now.--RadioFan (talk) 16:22, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've no idea - have you? They may have; they may not. Why cause a potential problem when this is unnecessary? I still see no point in changing the title unless it had some sort of intrinsic problem. Did it? Or is this just change for the sake of change? (If it ain't broke ......!) Perhaps I have missed something in the MoS. Peter I. Vardy (talk) 19:25, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia naming conventions tell us to be precise when necessary and to "avoid over-precision". There are no other articles about pubs with that name so qualifying it with the town isn't necessary. Convention also guides us to "use the most easily recognized name". Far more English readers world wide will recognize what the article is about based on The Falcon (public house) than The Falcon, Chester which could be misread as a person's name by some readers. --RadioFan (talk) 19:31, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Its notability is zero to do with its being a public house (who's interested in public houses?) and all to do with its being a very important historical building. Adding "public house" demeans its notability. (I could just about cope with "(inn)" - and it's sometimes called The Falcon Inn, but "public house" .....) Peter I. Vardy (talk) 19:51, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Or even better, how about "historical building"? That might work the best!!!!! Peter I. Vardy (talk) 19:52, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Its identified in the introductory sentence as a public house so thats what I used. Identifying it as a public house in no way demeans it. It is what it is. I think it should stay as it is.--RadioFan (talk) 19:54, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Its current use is as a public house, but it hasn't always been a public house and it may well not be a public house in the future. This article is about a building with the name "The Falcon", which pro tem happens to be a pub.

I don't see the point of this move, as it will simply cause problems in the future. "The Falcon" is a reasonably common pub name, and quite a few of them are Grade II listed, one in Denham, for instance. If I was to write an article on that building what would the article be called, and what impact would that have on the naming of this article? I find it difficult to believe that anyone would mistake "The Falcon, Chester" as a person's name in any case.

I think it would be absurd to have an article called "The Falcon (public house), Denham" and another called "The Falcon (public house), Chester". What else is there in Denham, Chester, or elsewhere called "The Falcon"? Nothing. I believe strongly that this article should be restored to its original name. --Malleus Fatuorum 21:56, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Very well, if there are other notable public houses which are likely notable, then the old name makes sense. I've tagged the old title for deletion. It may be moved back by anyone once the deletion is complete.--RadioFan (talk) 01:46, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I've moved the page back to its original title for a couple of reasons. 1) There is no consensus for the move and 2) there are other notable The Falcons (this one didn't take long to find; it's not an uncommon name and I'd put money on there being other notable The Falcon's out there). To whoever moved this page, I'd recommend that in future before moving a page that was a) recently created by a very active user and b) one that doesn't use an obviously wrong title (eg: The Falcon is an awesome pub) the person who created the article should be consulted about why they think the current title is correct. They may not be right, but it's not that much effort to ask questions first and shoot later. Hopefully this issue can be put to rest now. Nev1 (talk) 02:03, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Architectural discussion/criticism[edit]

Strange that there isn't any architectural discussion/criticism of this building. Personally, I think the enclosing of the row degraded the beauty of the building. Do architects not have any opinions on this? I would have thought that it would have been universal that what got done was the beginning of a blight on the street. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.129.156.88 (talk) 17:18, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. I'm not aware of any architectural discussion/criticism. It could be argued that aesthetically the building is now more "beautiful" than it was with a row running through it. It is now as it is; and it is considered to be worthy of the highest designation by English Heritage. Architects' opinions now about something that happened over 300 years ago are probably irrelevant. Peter I. Vardy (talk) 18:23, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

More to the point: in 1643 when your life and the life of your family was in danger, and you had to find a place of safety for them, would you bother about what people might find "beautiful" three–four centuries later? Peter I. Vardy (talk) 19:29, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

EH Compton - File-The Falcon inn, Chester (watercolor, before 1916).jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 10:05, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]