Talk:Voiced palato-alveolar sibilant

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
WikiProject Linguistics / Phonetics   
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Linguistics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Linguistics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's quality scale.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by the Phonetics Task Force.
 

To me, this recording sounds too much palatalized. 85.221.134.193 17:03, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I second that. Perhaps I'll record my own pronunciation upon getting a decent microphone. --Zx-man 16:40, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

"In English the sound is labialized, [ʒʷ], although few transcriptions bother with this level of detail." Labialised? I don't labialise mine. This might be a (Australian) dialect thing, but I doubt it. Questioned. 150.203.2.85 06:57, 12 October 2006 (UTC)Willjsteed150.203.2.85 06:57, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

My introductory phonetics book says that all postalveolar consonants and [ɹ] are always rounded in English, same goes for French. My guess is that for [ʒ] this is not as noticeable because the consonant is quite rare in English, especially word-initially. --Chlämens (talk) 22:28, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Russian/Polish[edit]

If you are going to delete the note about Russian (which seeks to clarify a common misunderstanding), you might as well delete the "Note" subsection header as well. But I think it is a net loss of information. --Ziusudra 17:26, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I took that out but you're right. It is a common misunderstanding. I'll put it back in. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 21:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Asia[edit]

Asia: This is not a good example to use for a voiced postalveolar fricative in English as many English people pronounce this word with a voiceless postalveolar fricative! Eroica 16:32, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

German[edit]

This sound also exists in German, but only in words of recent French origin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.233.238.4 (talk) 21:40, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

English[edit]

Does this sound ever occur initially in English? If so, it might be good to include that as one of the examples.99.247.176.46 (talk) 02:18, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

It depends on speaker. Some speakers always have the affricate in word-initial position. — Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi] 03:11, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
It does in the word Genre [ˈʒɑnrə]. --Moop ſtick | (Talk) 04:07, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
Is it worth noting that there really isn't a letter in the alphabet that would typically represent this sound. Its sound is pretty sporadic in words like vision, treasure, fissure, garage, genre, mirage, measure, seizure, luxurious, Beijing. --Moop ſtick | (Talk) 04:07, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Russian[edit]

Even though the Russian letter <Ж> sounds like a Voiced retroflex fricative, in many dialects in major cities (especially in Moscow, St. Petersburg, etc.) it is a Voiced postalveolar fricative. Here are the features of a Voiced postalveolar fricative:

  • Its manner of articulation is fricative, vvhich means it is produced by constricting air flovv through a narrovv channel at the place of articulation, causing turbulence.
  • Its place of articulation is postalveolar vvhich means it is articulated vvith the tip of the tongue betvveen the alveolar ridge and the palate, but closer to the alveolar ridge than for alveolo-palatal consonants.
  • Its phonation type is voiced, vvhich means the vocal cords are vibrating during the articulation.
  • It is an oral consonant, vvhich means air is allovved to escape through the mouth.
  • It is a central consonant, vvhich means it is produced by allovving the airstream to flovv over the middle of the tongue, rather than the sides.
  • The airstream mechanism is pulmonic egressive, vvhich means it is articulated by pushing air out of the lungs and through the vocal tract, rather than from the glottis or the mouth.
This includes many features in the letter Ж. So, vvhy is the Russian letter Ж classified ONLY in the phonology category of a Voiced retroflex fricative and not also in the category of a Voiced postalveolar fricative? There is a vvebsite that allovvs native speakers from their native countries to pronounce words (letters in this case) in fluent Russian, and here is "Zhe" (transliterised as either <žɛ>/<ʒɛ>, or in the case of a Voiced retroflex fricative: <ʐɛ>):
| Forvo Ж
Here is another vvebsite, shovving all the Russian letters pronounce by Russian natives: http://listen2russian.com/lesson01/a/

Please, If it is possible to consider BOTH VVIDELY KNOVVN DIALECTS OF RUSSIAN (Both vvhich are considered official to the USSR [Soviet Union] novv knovvn as the Russian Federation.) Thank you. :D

序名三「Jyonasan」 TalkStalk 01:03, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
People generally transcribe it as if it's palatoalveolar. I suspect the retroflexion is not well understood, though it is widely attested. If you find a source that talks about dialectal variation in Russian postalveolar fricatives between retroflex and palatoalveolar pronunciations, that's welcome here and at Russian phonology. I'm skeptical, though; all the sound files you've provided sound fairly retroflex to my ears. — Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi] 01:06, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Wrong sound sample[edit]

The sound sample is wrong! This is NOT a ʒ! This sound is from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Karmosin he makes several mistakes! --87.78.196.93 (talk) 10:50, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Sounds fine to me. — Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi] 15:11, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
It sounds fine. Please note that IPA symbols are not ment to represent exact sounds, the variation in sounds is virtually infinite so it's not possible or useful to create a symbol for each precise sound. IPA simply gives enough symbols to write down any language, but the precise sounds represented by them may differ from language to language.--90.179.235.249 (talk) 01:37, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
Incorrect, the sound sample is not within your "infinite" possibilities to pronounce ʒ; The sample is more palatalized, which can be represented by a different IPA symbol (ʑ or ʒʲ (that article and this one could use a switch of sound samples)). It is indeed the wrong sound. A similar problem is with the word examples that have been used for English. Many speakers pronounce words like "Asia" and "vision" (and even "leisure") with the palatalized sound. Something like "Genre" would be ideal.NotDomo (talk) 16:31, 16 May 2012 (UTC)