Template talk:Bullying

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Related Topics[edit]

Most articles listed under 'related topics' were incredibly loosely related. They were things that can be present in bullying but aren't directly related.

Can people please not add articles that they can't site as directly, notably and significantly related to bullying, and that deserve a mention.(unsigned)


That is completely untrue. Bullying is often treated as a mysterious social phenomina that somehow appeared one day from outerspace. But if you delve deeper into the underlying psychology you will discover that the mechanics of bullying are very well explained by various psychological phenomena, some of which were understood back in Freud's day. --Penbat (talk) 18:53, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
I understand your point, but one such article was 'profanity' which although it can pop up in some bullying cases, it's not interrelated in any way. Another case was psychopathy; while it may be present in some cases, not al bullies are psychopaths and not all psychopaths are bullies, i'm not doubting that there is an overlap, but there is no direct, notable relationship. It may be worth nothing somewhere in the main bullying article that some bullying is a result of psychopathy and to mention in the main psychopathy article that some psychopaths turn to bullying. However, the relationship is not close enough to warrant a mention on the template
188.223.62.45 (talk) 18:55, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
Profanity is really covered by verbal abuse and it doesnt bother me particularly if it is taken out. But the point is that profanity on its own doesnt in itself constitute bullying, but it is if it is used in conjunction with other bullying elements. Similar with rudeness, rudeness on its own is not bullying but it may typically be part of a package of bullying elements.
Regarding psychopaths, nobody is saying that all psychopaths are bullies and vice versa but there is plenty of authoritative literature, such as "Snakes in Suits" demonstrating that there is quite a strong link between the two. I suspect you have preconceived ideas of what a psychopath is - like a Hollywood axe murderer maybe, but the definition of a psychopath is broader than you probably realise. Often the chief bully (like a gang leader) may be psychopathic but there may be an army of non-psychopathic bullies who may do his dirty work for him. --Penbat (talk) 19:13, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
I understand that not all psychopaths are like the ones in films. I would appreciate it if you didn't treat me as if i was ignorant. I've removed 'profanity' seeing as there's no dispute there but as for the 'related' articles, i'll make a list of them, explaining my opinion of each one individually.
  • Blame shifting redirects to 'blame', which is a fairly universal thing and not specific enough to bullying
  • Complex post-traumatic stress disorder can occur from bullying, so i think fair enough to this one, but i think it should be mentioned/discussed in the main article rather than added as a footnote
  • Emotional Blackmail should be in the 'elements' section, rather that 'related articles'.
  • Envy is not an essential part of bullying and is far too non-specific to be in the template
  • Narcissism is again, non-essential and non-specific
  • Personal Boundaries are a part of day-to-day life, they don't crop up in bullying situations any more or less than in most normal situations
  • Personality Disorders CAN be present in a bully, but as i said earlier about psychopathy, a mental condition that can increase the chance of someone being a bully slightly doesn't qualify. People with certain kinds of autism of schizophrenia may also have increased chances of becoming a bully but aren't mentioned, as such nor should be personality disorders
  • Psychological Projection, as with before, is more suited to the 'elements' section of the template
  • Psychological Trauma, i would put with CP-TSD in the sense that it's better off discussed in the article
  • Psychopathy isn't worth rehashing, i've been over it before
  • Rankism would fall under both the 'mention/discuss in the main article' and the 'add to the elements' sections
  • Scapegoating is like i said for envy and narcissism and, it's non essential to bullying and far too common outside of bullying situations
  • Self-Esteem, be it too much or too little of it can effect bullying, but it's like 'blame', it's present in most every social situations so would be like adding 'speech' or 'intellect'
  • Sycophany is not an article that to me has any relevance whatsoever. Although, i don't know everything so if you can point out a connection i'd be happy to listen
  • Victim Blaming is one i would classify as 'mention/discuss in the main article'
  • Victim Playing seems to describe a situation where someone is pretending to be bullied and therefore isn't notable
  • Victimization to me, means exactly the same as bullying, but that's just my opinion
So there are my opinions, if you have counter-arguments i'm more than happy to hear them188.223.62.45 (talk) 21:03, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
Jesus give me a break. I have already spent a significant amount of time answering your earlier points. I can easily justify the inclusion of the articles as they are but i would effectively have to write a long essay just for your benefit to explain it to you.--Penbat (talk) 21:12, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
Give you a break? Look, i'm trying to be respectful here, i'm not harassing you, i'm just being as clear as possible188.223.62.45 (talk) 21:16, 7 May 2010 (UTC)


What you probably fail to understand is that bullying is just a subset of abuse and that the psychological phenomina that apply to abuse also apply to bullying. Psychological projection is a key psychological phenomina that often motivates someone to bully (or abuse) and typically claim that they themselves are the victim and the victim is the culprit. This in turn ties up very well with the concept of blame-shifting, victim playing and scapegoating. Psychological projection is also strongly associated with personality disorders, narcissism and psychopathy. Another motivation for bullying is narcissistic envy, think for examples of serious cases of school bullying where for example a schoolgirl killed herself because she was seriously bullied for being "too pretty". Also it is common for unusually academically bright children to get bullied as they are branded the "school swot" for example. I have run a support group for bullied victims for the last 6 years and these themes are frequently brought up. It is well documented that the psychological damage from abuse or bullying often is loss of self-esteem, complex post-traumatic stress disorder and psychological trauma. Rankism is relevant because bullying often involves somebody abusing their position of authority and exploiting somebody's vulnerability. Sycophancy relates to others that support (and suck up to) the bully and bully on his behalf as frequently bullying is vicarious - the chief bully (maybe the one with a personality disorder) typically employs a team of sycophants who do his dirty work for him. Without this the chief bully on his own would not be very effective. Emotional blackmail is a form of intimidation associated with psychological manipulation and bullying. Victimisation is an important concept in bullying just as much as abuse. Personal boundaries is an important concept because bullies like to continually chip away at the victim's personal boundaries so they may become helpless victims - this in turn ties in with narcissism, victimisation, self-esteem and assertiveness etc.--Penbat (talk) 13:25, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

On the topic of 'rankism', i never said it should be deleted, but rather moved to the 'elements' section. 'Blame Shifting' redirects to 'Blame', which isn't directly related at all.
As for the others, i never said that they were totally unlinked but rather not linked enough to be in the 'related articles' section. They should rather be mentioned/discussed in the main article —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.223.62.45 (talk) 14:04, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Tyler Clementi[edit]

How notable does it get? Why does one editor keep removing this? Fiddle Faddle (talk) 09:36, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Repeated removal of Tyler Clementi from this template[edit]

One editor User:PM800, keeps removing this item from the template. That removal s done repeatedly and without consensus. Such repeated actions make it very difficult to assume good faith. I and others have attempted discussions with this editor, to no avail. I am now issuing vandal warnings, having warned the editor that this would happen, each time the removal is made, and am reverting the removal as vandalism.

This suicide is significant. Heck, it reached Barak Obama's mouth! It was caused by bullying. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 11:46, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Note: if User:PM800 removes Tyler Clementi again from this template, let me know and I will block them for disruption. Fences&Windows 01:38, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Seung-Hui Cho[edit]

There is no evidence that Cho was ever a victim of bullying while at Virginia Tech. His rampage was due to a severe mental disorder, which went untreated during his time at Tech. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dnclark (talkcontribs) 19:41, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

deleted - also no mention of bullying in article--Penbat (talk) 20:13, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
If anything he appears to be the bully, I will delete it again, --MarsRover (talk) 22:34, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Inclusion of WIkipedia policies (etc)[edit]

Is it valid to include links to Wikipedia's own policies with regard to bullying (etc) in this template? I would like to suggest it be done on the basis that people's interest in that area may well be aroused by reading any article on the core topics addressed here. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 11:05, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Im not sure, ive put a link to it at the start of bullying anyway, that may be enough. Incidentally, as you know, it is Wiki advice not an official Wiki policy.--Penbat (talk) 12:46, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
That was what my (etc) meant, though I concede it was ambiguous :) Fiddle Faddle (talk) 16:14, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

This reversion[edit]

RfC: Template links[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
There is a consensus against restoring the links referred to below. There isn't really anything else to summarise from this RfC, except that a few editors think the template is too big. Callanecc (talkcontribslogs) 13:07, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Should we restore the links that were removed from the template back in April? (before and after) Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 02:08, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

No. Resolute 02:27, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
No: I agree that there was enough consensus without the now blocked user. Technical 13 (talk) 02:58, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
When I talked to User:Penbat about this, this is what he said about this matter: "I'm quite pissed off that quite a lot of stuff has been removed from the template and ideally i would want it returned to its original state (before Fladriff got involved) and certainly no more taken out. It only got raised as an issue when Fladriff & sock-puppet Star767 piled in. Anyway these days i have WikiBurnout and am trying to do as little as possible on Wiki. I don't have the stomach to get involved in Template talk:Bullying." I hope this understands why he does not wish to get involved. Consensus can, has and always will change. With all due respect, I think I see a bit of a weak consensus and there was little participation from some administrators and other users for consensus.
But I seriously think we still need a new consensus about this matter, and that is the reason I framed and filed the RFC. There is absolutely no hurry. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 03:34, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
Neutral - Even if there was consensus, it can still change and I would mostly support Penbat's opinion about this matter. Ideally, any edits made by users in violation of WP:BAN (i.e. Star767/Farrajak) should be reverted. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 07:14, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
I am content to discuss this again to determine a new consensus, even if the discussion is laborious. I agree with some and disagreed with other parts of the blocked user's position. Because I am in this position I must stat Neutral to the question asked above. What I support is consensus, even if it goes against my views. I am unconcerned about the fact of the blocked editor's being blocked. IN geenral the rushing to revert a blocked editor's edits can work against any consensus that obtained prior to the block. If there is a "rush to revert" I would like to see any prior consensus examined in each case. Fiddle Faddle 09:31, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
Comment-- It would be helpful to me and other editors who may join this RfC if we could have before and after diffs and/or a list of the links that the RfC presenter would like replaced, so it is clear what we are making a judgement about. Thanks-- KeithbobTalk 14:19, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
I've added that to my statement. I hope this helps understand the situation somewhat. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 01:02, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
Thank LS, is this really the right link?-- KeithbobTalk 02:03, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
Link corrected. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 15:47, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

COMMENT -I just glanced at Fladrifs diffs in the history section. There are many deletions and I'm not sure this RfC is going to work in its current set up because its so undefined and covers so much ground but...... From what I've seen...... all of the listings Fladrif deleted could be placed back in the template except these IMO this is a legitimate deletion as I think the Related Topics section goes to far afield of the central theme of the template.-- KeithbobTalk 02:11, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Reply I see where you are coming from. However I would include scapegoating. The major issue is to define the RFC. I feel we might proceed in the following manner. [Named as main proposal for the discussion that follows]
  1. Ignore Fladrif's edits completely. His blocking is a distraction
  2. Determine one by one whether each group has any inappropriate entries
  3. Where there are editors who consider that a group has inappropriate entries, reach consensus over the 'final' content of that group
In this manner, tiresome as it will most assuredly prove, we will achieve a consensus that, at a point in time, the template is 'correct', though we must recognise that it will change over time after that point.
There is a valid alternative: To declare by consensus that this RFC is impossible to resolve, and to let the template take ts chances n the hurly burly of day to day editing. [named as alternate proposal for the discussion that follows] Fiddle Faddle 17:38, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
Given Timtrent's statements, I concur with the above proposals and ideas on how we should proceed. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 14:43, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
Since here is no rush we can take whatever time we need to determine the route forward. I've inserted topic names into my statements above that we may discuss them more clearly, and set up a potential discussion below: Fiddle Faddle 08:38, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Discussion on the path to follow[edit]

My belief is that we should discuss whether to follow the discussion paths labelled above. The two paths are main proposal and alternate proposal. I am setting up two subheadings so we may offer views, views which I hope will lead to a consensus, below: Fiddle Faddle 08:38, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

main proposal[edit]

Please enter your thoughts about the main proposal including the usual support/oppose/neutral in this section

  • Neutral While the concept of such a discussion is good, such things tend to wither on the vine of lack of enthusiasm. I'm happy to contribute to it if this is the route we choose, but I don't intend to commit to the entire process. Since I believe that others are like me I suspect that, while this appears to be the correct route to full consensus, it will fail. Fiddle Faddle 08:41, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Neutral - I concur with Timtrent, but I also support Penbat's views on the template. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 13:43, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

alternate proposal[edit]

Please enter your thoughts about the alternate proposal including the usual support/oppose/neutral in this section

  • Cautious support on the basis that we are likely, in my view, to achieve the same result as the full discussion route. Uncontroversial edits will be made and will remain made. Controversial ones will work on the Bold, Revert, Discuss principle anyway. In terms of the streamlining of effort to achieve a similar result I prefer this option. Fiddle Faddle 08:44, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

"related" is vague[edit]

I may be speaking out of turn here but for my two cents the problem is the word "related." Perhaps finding some more specific but still appropriate descriptors would help? Like personality/psychological aspects. It might also make sense to treat each entry individually rather than as a group. So maybe do a thumbs up/down on each one then decide how to fit them in. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saltybone (talkcontribs) 01:35, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Ridiculously long and off-topic[edit]

The RFC is a mess, and the template is too long and ridiculously off-topic. This is the version I support. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:22, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

  • Even SandyGeorgia's version is too long. Try to cut it down to under 2000 bytes to reduce the impact on users with non-Western, non-fast internet connections. These types of templates are a major factor in reducing the accessibility and usability of the project: they make the article harder to open as they can massively bloat article size and load time, they are often of limited relevance, and they're redundant to categories. Risker (talk) 19:49, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.


Comment from Penbat[edit]

Ive been seriously reluctant to get involved in this discussion but it seems to have gone on for an eternity. To pick on these diffs which seem to be contentious, all articles are relevant to bullying in some way. In some cases references to bullying are actually made in the article. In others the connection is quite apparent if you Google relevant reliable sources its just that the Wikipedia articles need some work to develop the connections. To briefly run through each article:

  • Abuse - bullying is self evidently a form of abuse, it is a social construct. Abuse in particular forms or contexts is deemed bullying.
  • Anger - article mentions bullying "The symptoms of aggressive anger are: Bullying, such as threatening people directly, persecuting, pushing or shoving, using power to oppress, shouting, driving someone off the road, playing on people's weaknesses."
  • Anxiety - chuck this out I think somebody else might have inserted this
  • Control freak - there is no mention of bullying currently in control freak but it is quite self evident that a control freaks mode of operation is often bullying. There are plenty of Google links connecting the two:[1][2][3]
  • Just-world hypothesis - this article has a section on bullying: Just_world_hypothesis#Bullying
  • Narcissism - The workplace bullying article includes a section on narcissism and bullying - see Workplace_bullying#Personality_disorders. The bullying article includes "While some bullies are arrogant and narcissistic....". Plenty of google links on the connection [4][5][6]
  • Personal boundaries - bullying is not explicitly mentioned in this article but it easily could be. Bullying is self evidently the bully expanding their own personal boundaries and violating the personal boundaries of the victim. This idea is mentioned in the article in terms of narcissism
  • Psychopathy The workplace bullying article includes a section on psychopathy and bullying - see Workplace_bullying#Personality_disorders. Also plenty of relevant google links: [7][8][9]
  • Psychological projection - bullying does get a mention in the article "Alternatively, a bully may project his/her own feelings of vulnerability onto their victim...." and there is plenty on Google connecting the two: [10][11][12] Projection is the key psychological mechanism behind bullying.
  • Scapegoating - is clearly a closely related concept to bullying
  • Self-esteem - the self-esteem dynamics of the bully and the target are very pertinent.

--Penbat (talk) 16:02, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

The issue I have always had is that this is being treated as a list. It is not, it is a navigational template. It should not list every little thing that has some small tie in to the article subject. IMNSHO, a navbox should be limited to where the reader is most likely to want to go next, and that is the most closely related topics. In this case, the "Types" field. The addition of all these tangental links detracts from the template's function as a navigational aid. Even now there remain completely irrelevant links ("moving the goalposts") and numerous links that add very little navigational value. Most all of this is better served in a list article detailing potential effects of bullying. Resolute 16:12, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
They're not so tangential, for example psychological projection is fundamental to properly understanding the underlying psychology of bullying. To take your example, moving the goalposts is quite often referenced in the literature as a common bullying tactic and gets covered here: moving_the_goalposts#Bullying --Penbat (talk) 16:25, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
that section in Moving the Goalposts basically says "this can be an example of bullying because it is". Putting that poor writing aside, it does not change the point that bullying has only a very small relationship with the concept as a whole. It could certainly be included in a list article that can discuss it in context, but in this template, it is simply clutter that distracts from the articles that carry a strong and obvious relationship to the topic. Resolute 00:02, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
No it says more than that. Anyway that isn't the point. As Ive tried to explain, the coverage of bullying on Wikipedia is quite poor. There are tons of sources you can find from Google that could help amplify the relationships between bullying and related concepts but the work remains to be done. Carrying on with your "Moving the goalposts" example: [13][14] --Penbat (talk) 07:39, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
sigh... Unfortunately, this all revolves around a fundamental difference of opinion regarding the purpose of a navbox. Arguing the existence of some sort of relationship between topics is not going to convince me that every article that fits a broad category of possibilities is appropriate. In a list article, yes. In a navbox, no. C'est la vie though. We'll see how everything shakes out when others have had a chance to participate. Resolute 13:06, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
I agree with Resolute. Less is more, and even this version has too many for my taste, plus, they're poorly done--"yelling" MAYBE has a vague relation to some kinds of bullying (but so does gravity), but it redirects to Shout (sound)--now tell me how "shout" relates to bullying. Next thing you know Tears for Fears is to be added to the infobox Template:Psychological manipulation (a template with a similar set of problems: Trojan horse (business) is legal, not psychological manipulation). Drmies (talk) 18:20, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

A suggested general rule for inclusion in the template...[edit]

Here is one way in which I might subdivide some of these various topics which have been considered here:

  1. Those topics which clearly have a large, marked and significant overlap with the topic of bullying, and therefor probably ought to be included in the bullying template.
  2. Those topics which are perhaps somewhat ambiguous, with some significant overlap, and some significant non-overlap.
  3. Those topics for which most would probably agree there is not enough overlap to warrant their inclusion in the bullying template.

Here is a second way that these topics are also being evaluated:

A. Those topics for which the linking target articles include helpful and relevant supporting article section(s) which act to tie in the given target article in a helpful way.
B. Those topics for which the linking target articles have little or no related material, specifically tying in the target article with the subject of bullying.

Obviously, any topics that qualify for both Item 1., and item A. above should be in the template. Topics that qualify for item 3. above should not.

I would propose that it also makes sense that any items that qualify for item B., should be kept out of the template, at least until the proposed target article could be improved enough to bring such articles up to the A. category.

This leaves only category #2. above as still unresolved. Considering the fact that these templates are supposed to serve as brief navigational aides and not as lengthy lists, I would propose that we generally adopt a policy here that in cases of ambiguity and non-consensus, we should generally try to steer the template more towards the exclusion of such links, rather than towards their inclusion.

Scott P. (talk) 00:47, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't have any objections to this proposal. Since the RFC is going to go nowhere fast without a couple more users joining in, I asked others around to gain their perspective. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 23:26, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
I basically agree, however it would help to simply lay out which links are to be removed and which are questionable.Saltybone (talk) 06:54, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
I was asked to be one of these "others around" and comment. Some preliminary thoughts: 1) I agree that bullying in general is not as well-coverd on WP as it could be (perhaps because there is so much bullying ON WP?) 2) A navbox should be helpful to allow people to easily find related articles on a topic. 3) Just because some articles are not currently all that great is not grounds for exclusion from a navbox if the TOPIC is relevant- it's an argument to improve the articles! 4) The navbox isn't a random link farm; however, it should be as comprehensive as necessary. So, my inclination is to lean toward more, not less, and I don't think the existing navbox is too big. What would help here is a better summation of the 5-6 SPECIFIC articles that appear to be in contention for addition or removal. Montanabw(talk) 23:38, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
Lets leave the internal Wikipedia political rhetoric out of this, shall we? At any rate, my contention is virtually the entire "Elements" section. Some have obvious links and belong. Most have tenuous links, and while they would be useful to mention in a list article, the majority have so little direct relevance that the only thing we accomplish here is to clutter this template and to clutter those articles with a poorly applied Bullying template. Articles like Shout (sound) don't discuss bullying in any context whatsoever - and that is not a fault of the article. The topic of "bullying" simply isn't relevant to the concept. Teasing, school pranks, sarcasm, rudeness, moving the goalposts, gossip... "Bystanders" is just a duplicate link to the bullying article itself. Defined in context within the bullying article or related? Certainly. Placed in this template? Low value clutter. Resolute 14:26, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
I think that is precisely the point, though: what is relevant to bullying? The Elements section is very much key to the whole concept (though if someone wanted to move it loser in the template navbox, I wouldn't object.) The linked articles don't have to say "this is a form of bullying" to be counted, particularly if looking at forms that bullying might take. Now, I agree that duplications or articles that are pretty much circular need to be trimmed, and maybe shouting is a bit of a stretch, but clearly, teasing, taunting, school pranks, practical joking ... all of these things ARE used as tools by bullies. May I suggest collapsible subsections as I did when I created Template:Horse_equipment, which pretty much was stuck with being huge - I it modeled on Template:Scouting, which would be unwieldy otherwise. If you did this style, those who don't care all that much about minutae can just uncollapse the subsections they want. Montanabw(talk) 23:38, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
Indeed. However, I'm still quite pissed off that there was disruption going on between Penbat, Fladrif and Star767 during the events of March-April 2013 and a lot of the stuff here was removed. This only became an issue when Fladrif (a chronically disruptive user who not only had issues with Penbat, but also myself and many other users and was blocked from editing Wikipedia because of his actions) and Star767 (a banned user of Zeraeph) became involved back in March. And that sparked this whole discussion above and the RFC as well. I had no interest in getting involved in the discussion other than asking others around at first right up until after Fladrif was blocked and I saw what happened at WT:BASC (Fladrif was being disruptive there as well). I find his conduct a major distraction. Anyway, I do agree that we should remove duplicate articles or articles that are pretty much circular. As for the collapsible subsections, I can live with that. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 00:23, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
  • On the basis that reaching any conclusion and consensus on this is unlikely, why not use the current version of the template (however it stands now) as the datum, and see who shouts when an addition or removal is made, using that to reach future consensus? My life is not long enough to spend much more time in this area, and I doubt anyone else's is either. Note, also, that articles and the template need to be kept in step.
And let's ignore Fladrif. I managed to keep him/her civil and on task, and we had productive discussions. Some I won, some I lost. Fiddle Faddle 00:30, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
I was only giving some background information on some events as well, but I did not want to personally participate in the discussions right up until May or so. At this point, I think we still need a new broader consensus from more users on those issues. So far, from the discussions I have seen, there were a couple of limited consensus between some users, but we do not need to maintain ownership of articles or templates. Perhaps it's time to ask other WikiProject members to get involved... Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 04:10, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
It's always a good time to involve others. So far very few folk seem to care enough either way, so a larger group of folk giving the template some thought would be excellent. But attracting people has been tried before. Perhaps it needs a radically different approach and to be nominated for deletion? I suggest it with all seriousness, but can't find a valid rationale. Fiddle Faddle 08:41, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
I think a radically different approach is acceptable at least. At this point, very few people seem to care about this, but we need a larger group of people to attain consensus. Unless someone objects, I am going to nominate the template for deletion in the next couple of days per Tim's suggestions. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 08:46, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
I'm unwatching-- please ping me when you nominate it for deletion. It is patently absurd that we are exposing our readers and our browsers to a template this gynormous. This discussion has been going on for almost a month, and even halfway moves to get it down to something reasonable are opposed. Delete-- pls ping me. Unwatch. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:37, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
  • My first question here is, who decides what relevance to the topic of bullying each of these has? Do we try to recruit an expert on the subject? Do we have a straw poll? Who contributes to the straw poll? Do we have a mini-RfC for each? Where is the line drawn? I'm not saying that I object, I just want to make sure that it is clear how this will be handled to decide. Technical 13 (talk) 15:18, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I imagine we rely on consensus. There is a certain irony about that with this topic. Fiddle Faddle 18:30, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
  • And yet someone has jumped the gun and stripped the template down nearly half... So, let's start discussing this and make all proposed edits to the sandbox version (Template:Bullying/sandbox) instead of the live template itself until we can find some relatively reasonable middle ground about what should go and what should say. Technical 13 (talk) 01:41, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Despite taking an interest in this template, including setting off the RFC, I've missed this discussion. Template:Ping:Sjones23, I dispute your background statement "And that sparked this whole discussion above and the RFC as well." I was not influenced by banned users to highlight the problems and to call for discussion across the different problematic templates, and in fact I think your summary of the RFC was non-neutral and brought in topics that that the RFC was not about. Anyone who suggests I am a banned user or am acting for a banned user should substantiate the allegations or drop them. I've asked you before what you think my actions have to do with the banned users you mention and have not had a response. If you're annoyed that a lot of material has been removed from the templates, then clearly you're against consensus, looking at the RFC. I think it's unhelpful that, in the RFC and other discussions about these templates, you've spent so much effort talking about the non-issue of long-banned editors in preference to the matter at hand.

@Technical 13:, the discussion that led to the RFC quoted policy that the templates need to follow. We seemed to have consensus there that at least some of the templates were overreaching and need to be cut down. When we have policy and consensus to cut down, and some editors are still opposing cutting down, then I can understand SandyGeorgia's frustration expressed above. As for whether an article is relevant to the template topic, I don't think we need an expert. If the article itself mentions the topic, in way that hasn't obviously been shoe-horned or coat-racked in, then it's likely relevant. That criterion itself fails a lot of links that were included in this template when the concerns were raised. MartinPoulter (talk) 16:31, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

And part of the result of missing the discussion is that I've missed that there was an RFC on this page in addition to the RFC on Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Psychology about this template, so my references to "the RFC" don't match up with what other contributors are referring to. Not sure why there had to be another RFC: on the surface, it looks like forum-shopping. MartinPoulter (talk) 19:22, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
I don't really think it was forum shopping. But I think there was actually a weak consensus on this issue among Psychology members among some editors and this discussion was going on for too long. That's why I decided to take an RFC here, but in the end it's just a total mess. My summary was clearly trying to be neutral. The above discussion back in April contained, in my view, a very weak consensus, but after all, there is consensus against restoring the links referred to below. We can always change consensus at a much later time, but in the meantime, I think that everyone should let this template and the other templates pertaining to psychology take their chances in due course. Until then, let's all move on to something that's actually important. The end. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 03:16, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
I don't know what "let this template and the other templates [...] take their chances in due course" means. I would just like this template, and the other templates where I've identified similar problems, to respect policy and the (weak) consensus of two successive RFCs (plus the consensus of past discussion before the RFCs). I'd like discussion towards this end not to be persistently derailed by reference to the long-banned users. It's ironic that you say this is not important when you've spent so much time and effort on it, and you've described yourself as "quite pissed off". MartinPoulter (talk) 18:21, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
I think you do know what it means, you know. The hurly burly of Wikipedia means that aspects which do not meet policy will, now or later, be made compliant by someone, maybe by you. I don't care about long banned users, not about yet to be banned users, nor about unbanned users. I do care about policy, compliance, and so much else besides. I do not care about harking back to the Cold War and debating the shape of the conference table over this. Life is too short. I may or may not be outa here. I may come back if I have gone. I may not. Fiddle Faddle 19:20, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Links to keep or delete[edit]

Since the RFC has been closed, I would like to make a proposal here on which links to keep or leave out. If someone objects, I am going to start a proposal for the categories that were removed back in April. Comments or objections before I proceed? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 20:23, 7 December 2013 (UTC)