Template talk:Punctuation marks

Math characters

Do simple math characters count as punctuation? I guess not in general, or every math character would. But in things like "−6 degrees", "±12 dB", do the minus and plus-or-minus count as punctuation? Should it just remain a type of dash? Do things like degree marks count ("32°")? - Omegatron 19:34, Apr 5, 2004 (UTC)

I consider them more of an elaborate notation than punctuation. - Woodrow 19:37, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

How about Interpunct? Bullet? I think minus should still be shown, since it is a type of dash and they get confusing, even if other similar math or notation things should not. - Omegatron 21:29, Apr 5, 2004 (UTC)

Non-standard marks

I think we should remove punctuation marks that are nonstandard to English, such as the interrobang. And maybe limit the examples of quotation marks to the English ones, at least to simplify the template.--Sonjaaa 22:11, Nov 26, 2004 (UTC)

I concur. – Quadell ^{(talk) (help)} 00:18, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)

I also concur. The odd characters are now listed below in "Uncommon typography" —Down10 ^TACO 07:43, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

now Validating

Looks like I wasn't wrong about unnecessary quote around number in HTML. But we're using XHTML here, duh. Well anyway, it now validates as valid XHTML 1.0 [1]

BTW, does anyone know how-to remove the spaces at the top of each page? or is that something that the developer will have to fix?

mediawiki reprocesses everything anyway so quotes or no quotes round the numbers in the wiki markup makes no difference to the output xhtml. Plugwash 17:43, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

Strange interwiki

Hi,

There's a strange interwiki in the template. I have no idea why it's there, but now I've put it in <noinclude></noinclude> to give it just a little meaning.

--Morten Barklund 17:13, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Bolding

I don't think the punctuation marks should be bolded, because it screws up their display by turning the smaller font into just a blurry, blocky mess for some characters, especially the paragraph mark and @ sign. Night Gyr 01:24, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree; it does make it muddy. MeekMark 14:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that I made everything bigger to try to reduce this problem. —Gordon P. Hemsley→✉ 04:43, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

So, five years later, I WP:boldly (in a different sense) removed the bolding. Bolding the punctuation marks does not make them stand out much more, and they shouldn’t really have to stand out anyway. Plus it simplifies things. Vadmium (talk) 07:11, 11 August 2011 (UTC).

Better indeed. Now for the next five years, are the brackets ( ) a typographic way of doing? If not, we could do without (except for maybe for spaces and multiple symbols). See you in 2016. -DePiep (talk) 09:07, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I think in most case the brackets are probably not necessary. Vadmium (talk) 10:42, 11 August 2011 (UTC).

That is fast! But, if it is an established typographer's habit, they should stay. btw, I tried to smaller the infobox, using CSS <div> and <span> but did not succeed (Windows IE problems). Let me know if you want more on that. -DePiep (talk) 12:25, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

title and style on Interword separation

How about a span for the spaces, to allow title= with a description? Like this:

( <span title="Non-breaking space (HTML entity &amp;nbsp;)"> </span> ) ( <span title="en space (HTML entity &amp;ensp;)">  ) ( <span title="em space (HTML entity &amp;emsp;">  )

which looks like this (hover over the spaces for a tooltip):

(   ) (   ) (   )

And maybe even a border around them (one possible style shown):

( <span class="updatedmarker" title="Non-breaking space (HTML entity &amp;nbsp;)">&nbsp;</span> ) ( <span class="updatedmarker" title="en space (HTML entity &amp;ensp;)">&ensp;</span> ) ( <span class="updatedmarker" title="em space (HTML entity &amp;emsp;">&emsp;</span> )

Renders as:

(   ) (   ) (   ) MeekMark 22:10, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

• Yup, I refuse to consider the second solution :) As to the first one, I don't have a strong opinion, but... it is inconsistent with all the rest. Why do you think we need a tooltip on the spaces and not on the other characters? In particular why not on dashes? (Oh, and BTW the &nbsp; is not meant to represent a &nbsp; but a normal space; of course I couldn't have used a normal space in the HTML code) —Gennaro Prota^•Talk 21:11, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
• No problem; the decoration does kinda get in the way. The main reason for the tool tip was for those that wondered, "Hey, I wonder what the differences are in those spaces?" and also for screen reader programs. But your point why not the rest is valid too; so unless someone else besides me sees some value, I'll leave well enough alone. MeekMark 22:10, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

• Well, don't give up so early :) I hadn't considered screen readers, and you raise a good point. I'm not an expert in this field, so I ask you: is there any way other than tooltips to make screen readers "decipher" the spaces with their correct name? I'm not against the tooltip if it increases the infobox accessibility. I just would like an alternative to avoid inconsistencies with the other rows. Otherwise I lean towards the tooltip, as the accessibility benefit greatly outweighs the inconsistency issue, IMHO. —Gennaro Prota^•Talk 11:11, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Percent symbol

Does anyone else think that the % symbol should be added under general typography? Max naylor 20:58, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Hmm... good question. Actually, there are also the "Per mille sign" (‰) and the "Per ten thousand sign" (‱), which are in the Unicode general punctuation range (see http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2000.pdf). If there are no significant objections in a few days I'll add them. —Gennaro Prota^•Talk 21:27, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

the umlaut

I added the diaresis, but now I'm not sure I ought to have; should it only be in Template:diacritical marks instead? As perhaps should any other "combining mark" (as designated by Unicode? --moof 00:51, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I suspect both dieresis and guillemets were discussed before and intentionally excluded, but I was not here when discussion took place. Let's see what others have to say. —Gennaro Prota^•Talk 01:15, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Just to clarify why I think so: the whole box seems deliberately English-oriented, and guillemets are rarely used in English (the article about quotation marks seems also to strongly state they are "foreign language" symbols); as to the dieresis I guess, as you suppose too, it belongs to {{diacritical marks}}. —Gennaro Prota^•Talk 01:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Support deletion of umlaut/diaeresis. It's a diacritical mark, and it is already in the Template:diacritical marks where it belongs. (For now, I just changed spelling diaresis -> diaeresis.) – Adhemar 08:41, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed on deletion. It's a diacritical mark, and not in the same topic of punctuation or typography. —Down10 ^TACO 07:43, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Octothorp

octothorp ( #)

My contributionLudvikus 14:43, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Reference:

    octothorp \ak-te-thorp, -to-\ noun [octo- + thorp, of unknown origin; fr. the eight
    points on its circumference] (1971): the symbol #
    
    (C) 1996 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated

I've reverted that change. Octothorp is a too-obscure alternative name, not widely accepted. Dicklyon 16:16, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Interpunct

Interpunct was shown under punctuation but, as my son Ted just pointed out, the page for interpunct clearly states this is used for interword separation and so it should sit with Spaces in the existing "interword separation" section. Ted is just 10 years old.

Reference mark

The link to Reference mark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reference_mark) is diverting to Japanese typographic symbols. Is there any logic to this?

It seems to me like a Japanese Asterisk. So yes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.79.105.66 (talk) 03:58, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Too big

The template list is too long, especially on some stub typography articles. Could we possibly add a [show] [hide] function? --Spebi 08:53, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Symbol in template?

Many symbol pages have the symbol in question displayed in different ways... what about having them all included in the template.. example User talk:Yzmo/punctest That would make it look better Yzmo ^talk 15:27, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

the same sign

apostrophe ( ->’<- ' )
quotation marks ( ‘ ->’<-, “ ” )

are the same, what's what. Chandlertalk 01:57, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Trimming the Fat

This list is indeed getting too long. To help, I removed some poor examples: "Dele" & "Emoticons".

The dele symbol isn't even used in typography, it's a manual mark for proofreading, and is almost always handwritten. So it shouldn't be in this list, but instead in Template:Proofreading marks.

Emoticons technically uses type as an expression, but since they doesn't function as punctuation (in any formal sense) nor as a singular type symbols, they doesn't belong here. The example ("☻") is a really tiny "smiley face" (though it looked just like a big black dot on my screen, at that size), but it's not a proper instance of a type symbol. Please let this list serve as an index to typography in regular usage, lest you feel that every dingbat that has been added to Unicode should be added to this template. [insert frowny face here] —Down10 ^TACO 06:01, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Typeface for blown-up symbols

.

.

With the current template, the various symbols are shown in what I consider to be not the best archetypical shapes; for example, the full stop comes out as a square. I propose to have the blown-up symbols rendered in the Times font family, so that it is more like a circle. Objections?  --Lambiam 10:11, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I have made the change.  --Lambiam 13:11, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Squid Apostrophe?

The individually-linked words don't seem to go anywhere relevant, and I couldn't find any valid meaning for the two combined. Raines (talk) 08:25, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

"Splutter marks"

These are a pair of marks used in DC comics and elsewhere to indicate gasps, coughs, etc. They resemble skinny right and left arrows that have been separated into their component lines. I have been unable to find any reference to them anywhere, so "splutter marks" is my own name for them. Does anyone know what they are called? I reckon they must count as punctuation marks in use, but, as I mention, I can find not reference to them at all.

November1925 (talk) 12:39, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Possibly here?

Western Signs and Ideograms

There are several books out these days on signs and symbols used in Comic Books. The above happens to be online.

KA-BOOM! A Dictionary of Comic Book Words, Symbols & Onomatopoeia

The above title is sold through Amazon.com and elsewhere.

The splutters usually represent sweat (hot or cold) or strong emotion. A similar symbol replaces the teardrop shapes with straight lines (either easier to draw or focusing on the emotional affect rather than physical manifestations -- they're remarkably flexible) which can surround either characters or words.

Lee-Anne (talk) 00:09, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Width

This box seems to have become unreasonably wide. Compare the old version here with the current version here. Any chance someone who understands the formatting intricacies could put it back to a more reasonable and space-efficient width? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.142.110.189 (talk) 03:48, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Since there haven't been any comments I have done what seems best to me. I think that making the box a reasonable width to fit down the right-hand side of articles is more important than including some of the alternative descriptions, so I have removed them. I also let the currency symbols wrap. If you can find a better way of doing this then please do! 86.161.40.200 (talk) 19:49, 29 April 2009 (UTC).

Images for non-standard punctuation

On many browsers, the non-standard characters do not show at all. For the Therefore sign, no image or character is visible. Perhaps we should use an image file at the top of the box in those cases?--Knulclunk (talk) 12:28, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

{{SpecialChars}} is also an option. Therefore displays fine on my vanilla Mac. What OS/browser are you running? --Cybercobra (talk) 16:18, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Ditto Mark and Ibid.

The ditto mark (〃 [U+3003]) is actually pretty common in some circles--at least much more than the interrobang, and percontation point--and serves a unique purpose. Any objection to my adding it to the "General Typography" section?24.190.34.219 (talk) 01:04, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Size

This is massive, it takes up so much space just for punctuation links. Can we have each section as a drop down?- _J.Logan`^t: 09:16, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Typeface for the large example

Please read the thread above at #Typeface for blown-up symbols, before commenting.

I'll repeat the question I asked at Ezekiel63745's talkpage: I do agree with [the thread above] that Exclamation mark [for example] looks a bit odd with a square dot. Which mark were you looking at, and thinking it needed to be "squarer"? Thanks. -- Quiddity (talk) 01:03, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 24.245.20.235, 21 May 2011

In the alphabetical listing of currency signs, the new Indian rupee sign should be under "R"

24.245.20.235 (talk) 02:23, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Y Done --Cybercobra (talk) 11:25, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Unpaiktable, 10 June 2011

on the right hand side column of the characters, the names should be the other way around for vertical/broken bar and pipe. The symbols next to them are in the opposite order. it should be pipe, vertical/broken bar rather than the other way around.

Unpaiktable (talk) 15:37, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Done Thanks - Happysailor ^(Talk) 18:59, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 2007

There was a request to add a collapsible show/hide function. Is this possible to do? USchick (talk) 17:33, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Please take a look at {{Punctuation marks/testcases}}, I have put something in the {{Punctuation marks/sandbox}}. Even this is an ugly one, because it disturbs the graphic area. Also, later on we should improve the width-changing effect. For sure, since it is a regular infobox, it's basic state should be open (showing). -DePiep (talk) 17:55, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

yes, it definitely disrupts the graphic area. Thanks for trying. USchick (talk) 04:16, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Glad you have the same sensibility. I am not even a typographer. I also tried to put it in the lower list (the sub-table beginning with "Punctuation"), but it did not work. -DePiep (talk) 12:28, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 217.92.20.187, 25 August 2011

Tooltip on Japanese yen must be "Japanese yen", not just "¥".

217.92.20.187 (talk) 15:56, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

The tooltip is the wikilink to the page: ¥. If we change that to Japanese yen, we'd create a redirect. In general, that is undesired in templates (should consider a label then). Also, the symbol is for Japanese yen (JPY) and Chinese yuan, so to be correct we'd have to have both of them in the tooltip.

In general, this template is about the (punctuation) sign, not it's meaning. I suggest no change. -DePiep (talk) 16:09, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Done, hopefully satisfying all concerns. — Bility (talk) 18:02, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

No, it should have stayed to the symbol. Not the symbol's meanings. Is what the template is about. -DePiep (talk) 00:17, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Please revert. -DePiep (talk) 00:19, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand the problem. All the currency symbols have English words in the tooltips, why should ¥ be different? How is having ¥ in the tooltip at all helpful, since a reader is already seeing it as the link? The link still goes to the ¥ article, so I just don't understand this opposition. — Bility (talk) 00:29, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

All those characters are in a section called "Currency", so the names of the currencies should be expected in the tooltips, in my opinion. — Bility (talk) 00:34, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)This template is about punctuation. Apparently that includes currency symbols -- all right. Whatever the currency symbol means, the link should be to the symbol(-page). End of explanation. I have not checked, but the "$" punctuation symbol should link to the page $. From that page, a reader can go ahead and look for the meaning and usage of that punctuation symbol. btw, did I mention that here it is just a punctuation symbol? -DePiep (talk) 00:41, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Jee, I reverted the span-trick changing the tooltip. If it is not by wikilink (redirect at least), then it is not worth editing. No trick needed. -DePiep (talk) 00:46, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

What you are saying doesn't make sense to me (especially about where the link should go, since it never changed), but you reverted and I don't really mind, so whatever. Cheers, — Bility (talk) 01:11, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

In Unicode, the symbol is called U+00A5 ¥ yen sign (HTML: ¥ ¥). It is the name of the sign, not hte meaning. same for (e.g.) U+00024 $ dollar sign (HTML: $). It does not say or link to: "US dollar sign". It's just the name of the sign itself, not it's meaning. But clearly I cannot explain this any better. -DePiep (talk) 01:34, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

The main problem with this suggestion is that it's also the currency sign for the Renminbi. --Cybercobra (talk) 04:19, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

The double meaning is described correctly in the intro of the ¥ article. imo there is no problem. Just as one wound expect in the £ to note multiple uses. Another route would be to create a redirect page Japanese yen and Chinese yuan, but we do not use redirects in templates regularly. In general, "¥"is a corerct article name (page name) here. Nothing different from A. But now I leave this, promised, maybe I am boring people already. -DePiep (talk) 12:07, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

If I might clarify: My comment was regarding the IP user's original suggestion. --Cybercobra (talk) 02:22, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 9 January 2012

The founding date for the Nu Iota chapter of Phi Beta Sigma is 1980. It was the 1st Greek Organization on the campus of UNCP. 166.137.15.138 (talk) 06:00, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Think you're on the wrong page, friend. — Bility (talk) 16:50, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

<includeonly>

Please, give a link where the absence of <includeonly> makes troubles. In any case, do not make bulk rollbacks (restore <includeonly> if it is needed). Incnis Mrsi (talk) 20:48, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I reverted your whole edit because the version produced the wrong outcome. Your es was not inviting to spend time on details. -DePiep (talk) 23:05, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

"Wrong outcome" are two words which mean nothing. Report perceivable problems, not just revert one's work because it is not perfect. May be you will gain some respect this way, even if reverting will precede a discussion. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 08:53, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

You did not read both my sentences, did you? -DePiep (talk) 10:46, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Proposal in the sandbox

I have prepared a proposal in the {{punctuation marks/sandbox}}. Please take a look at {{punctuation marks/testcases}} (new sandbox version is lefthand side) to check for any strange effects (Windows IE?).

Major change: the new box with the three variants now is a complete subtemplate box to make it more manageable. Also changed: some effects with the big symbol. Any comments? -DePiep (talk) 17:26, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Y Done Moved into live. -DePiep (talk) 08:52, 17 February 2012 (UTC)