Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of National Treasures of Japan (shrines)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Dabomb87 16:03, 2 February 2010 [1].

List of National Treasures of Japan (shrines)[edit]

Nominator(s): bamse (talk) 11:32, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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This list of National Treasure shrine structures is modeled after the featured paintings‎ and sculptures lists. As a novelty there are extensive architectural notes explaining technical terms. I tried to implement comments from previous featured national treasure list candidacies. bamse (talk) 11:32, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • there is one dead link
    Fixed.
  • should there be the little box at the top of the article saying that the article contains Japanese characters?
    Don't know if it is required but I put it there just in case.
  • all images have alt text, which is great
    agreed :-)
  • the references seem all to be in the correct format
  • Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (numbers), there should be a non-breaking space -   between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 60cm, use 60 cm, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 60 cm.
    Fixed two occurences (in a footnote). Hope those are all.

I'll keep it in my watch-list. Mephiston999 (talk) 12:44, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the comments. I addressed all of them. bamse (talk) 16:42, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]


More comments
  • The red link I think should go.
  • The term Shinto should be used with care, because the existence of Shinto and the meaning of the term itself before the Meiji era are hotly disputed subjects. Many do not believe Shinto as an organized religion existed before the modern era, and think the word itself in the past meant something like "religion". The situation is described here. The term many prefer for Shinto before the modern era is "local religious beliefs". I would therefore replace the first sentence with "The practice of marking sacred areas began in Japan as early as the Yayoi period (from about 500 BC to 300 AD) originating from primal religious beliefs".
  • The illustration has numbers but no legend. Would it be possible to add one?

Urashima Tarō (talk) 04:54, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments. I created Ōsaki Hachiman-gū, so the read link is gone; changed the first sentence as you suggested and added a legend to the image caption.bamse (talk) 12:53, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support I am satisfied with Bamse's alterations made after I made some suggestions, and I think this is an excellent article. I was invited to comment, but since I am also one of the article's editors and I often collaborate with Bamse, I don't know if I can or should vote for the article's promotion to Featured List. If I can, I vote Support Urashima Tarō (talk) 23:42, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 09:55, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments (another staggering list, well done!)
  • The list is huge, the lead is correspondingly large, but isn't there a main article where a lot of this could be discussed? Just a thought.
    Not sure what you mean. There are Shinto, Shinto shrine and Shinto architecture which discuss these issues. The lead is however focused on the national treasure shrines. To make sense of the list, I think it is essential to have some historical background. That's why I wrote a somewhat extended intro.
  • You link "shrines" to "Shinto shrines" - I'd use the full title in this case.
    I am reluctant to do this because of the issue mentioned by Urashimataro above: the usage of the term "Shinto" for these early times is hotly debated. The Shinto shrine article discusses also old shrines, which might or might not be referred to as Shinto shrines.
  • " taisha-zukuri[ex 1], shinmei-zukuri[ex 2] and sumiyoshi-zukuri[ex 3][3][5]" - comma should go before [ex 1] and there should be a full stop between zukuri and [ex 3].
    Fixed.
  • "and, indeed, today's " don't see a need for ", indeed,"
    Removed.
  • "stones[nb 2]," nb after comma please. Plenty of these in the table, please check.
    Fixed, also those in the table. Hope I caught all of them.
  • "This list presents 37" then "In fact the number of structures presented is more than 37" reads a little odd to me.
    Indeed, there was "national treasure" missing. Now it reads: "This list presents 37 entries of national treasure shrine structures..."
  • Have you linked "oratory" anywhere?
    Linked now.
  • Shrines map covers the right-hand side of the right-hand table in my my browser (IE7).
    After 100 attempts my IE shows proper formatting. Hope yours does as well.
  • What significance does bold have in the table?
    No meaning and therefore removed.
  • There's a separate symbol for x (which I can't remember how to find)...
    Replaced x with ×. Done.
  • Minor point but would prefer to see "Images" rather than "Pictures" as a heading.
    Done.
  • "with richly colored " richly - POV.
    Removed two occurences of "richly" in the table.
  • Consistency in use of full stops in the architecture notes please.
    Added full stops to make it consistent.
  • Same for general notes (compare 10 with 11)
    Done.
  • Ref 53 has a typo.
    Fixed.
  • Ref 48 could use a space before the (.
    Fixed.
  • Do refs 81 and 82 really have identical titles?
    No. Fixed.

The Rambling Man (talk) 09:22, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the feedback. I started to fix some of it. Will continue later today.bamse (talk) 10:08, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Addressed all of the issues above. bamse (talk) 22:28, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Second image etc, bright blue rectangle - what's that about?
    The picture shows three national treasures: the fence (Tōzai Sukibei), the gate (karamon) and the building in the back. The blue rectangle is indicating which of the three is meant here. Unfortunately there is no better viewpoint to get a decent picture of the building in the back. The gate and fence could be isolated in a picture. I used the same picture in order to show how the structures are located relative to each other (the fence is surrounding the building and there is the gate in the fence).
    The blue rectangles need explanation, in my opinion. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:55, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Added: If the image shows more than one structure, the respective structure is indicated by a blue rectangle. to "Images" in the "Usage" section. bamse (talk) 22:42, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I think this is a well-written and well sourced list. Ruslik_Zero 20:26, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Comments Support by Nev1 (talk · contribs)
  • " Over time the temporary structures evolved into permanent structures that were dedicated to the gods": slightly repetitious with "structures", could do with a little change.
  • I'm not sure what the following means: "The honden is 2×2". Are we talking 2 by 2 metres (6 ft 7 in × 6 ft 7 in)? This applies to notes two, three, and four, and the remarks in the main table.
  • This is explained in the "Usage" section under "Remarks": "m×n" denotes the length (m) and width (n) of the structure, each measured in ken. So a 2×2 structure is one which has three pillars on each side: one at each corner and one in-between these two.
  • Sorry I missed that. I would suggest though that for the notes it be made clearer, as they come before the usage section Nev1 (talk) 23:47, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Forked finials act as ornamentation" sounds a little bit clumsy, how about something like "They are decorated with forked finials"?
  • Changed as suggested.
  • "date to before 552 AD": surely "date from before 552 AD"? I'm genuinely not sure about which to use or whether one is incorrect, but I've seen "date from before xyz" more often than "date to before xyz".
    Changed: "to"->"from".
  • Dates suffixed by BC or AD need a non-breaking space in between. It means that if there's a line break on some screens, you won't get a BC/AD marooned on its own.
    Done.
  • " The concept of temples as a place of assembly was applied to shrines": I know what this is trying to say, but at the moment it sounds like shrines were made into temples. How about something along the lines of "Borrowing the idea from temples, shrines became places of assembly"?
    To me it does not sound as if shrines were made into temples since specifically: "concept...as a place of assembly" is mentioned.
    Ok, I'll leave this. I think the meaning is clear, although it could perhaps be better phrased. It's a minor issue though. Nev1 (talk) 23:47, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • " At the end of the Heian period two-storied gates and grand colonnades, replacing torii and fences, were copied on a large scale from temple architecture": in this case does large scale mean making the gates and colonnades bigger (in which case the phrasing is fine), or that they were widely copied?
  • "gongen-zukuri was introduced as a method of building shrines": the article linked indicates that gongen-zukuri is an architectural style, or a different kind of plan, rather than a new method of construction, which surely relates to what kind of materials were used and how they were put together?
    Indeed. Replaced "method"->"new plan'.
  • "The main hall was joined with the oratory via a connecting structure known as ai-no-ma as is also found in the hachiman-zukuri style": is the second "as" meant to be "and"?
    Reworded. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 18:30, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • It might be worth considering moving the last paragraph of the lead to the start, so the reader knows immediately about shrines as National Treasures and then goes on to read more about shrines in general, but this is not a deal breaker and I'm happy to leave this to the author's discretion.
    Moved it.
  • Similar to my comment on the paintings list, it would be useful to know what National Treasure status does for a shrine; for example in the UK scheduled monuments are protected from unauthorised change.
    Added: As such they are eligible for government grants for repairs, maintenance and the installation of fire-prevention facilities and other disaster prevention systems. Owners are required to announce any changes to the National Treasures such as damage or loss and need to obtain a permit for transfer of ownership or intended repairs. and a reference.
  • Might it be useful to have the tables in the statistics section sortable? The layout out for the first might make it impractical.
    The second table is small enough to be sorted by the reader (It is currently sorted by age.) Removing the rowspans in the first table, I could make it sortable. Unless you think it is essential, I'd prefer the present version.
    I made the small table sortable.bamse (talk) 08:54, 28 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    It's not at all essential to make the first sortable, and as you say it's short enough for the reader to be able to "sort" it mentally. Nev1 (talk) 23:47, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There's a good explanation of the origin of shrines, the history is good although could do with a little copyediting, and the lead image is useful to get an idea of a typical layout, which can be difficult to explain well in prose. It's interesting to see that the shrines are more spread out than the paintings (presumably because you don't get shrine collectors) but from the discussion in the last FLC I presume there's little that could be said about the distribution without venturing into WP:OR. Otherwise, the descriptions seem detailed enough, and the main table looks good. I can't think of anything else to add. A nice article. Nev1 (talk) 18:01, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Replied to all of your comments, which were not done by Truthkeeper88 already. Please let me know if you require any further changes. (I cannot see any system in the geographic distribution, so I don't dare to discuss it.) bamse (talk) 22:36, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies for taking so long, I've now switched to support. Well done for producing a fine list. Nev1 (talk) 23:47, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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