Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 December 31

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

December 31

Russian help: Department of Aviation

What is the Russian text for "Department of Aviation" seen here? http://www.avia.by/ While this is an agency of Belarus AFAIK the website uses Russian, not Belorussian.

Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 01:09, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Are you simply looking for "Департамент по авиации" (Departamnt po Aviatsii) or the translation of the whole page? Be aware, the use of "po" here is not standard Russian, although the text is Russian, not Byelorussian. μηδείς (talk) 01:44, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

I was only looking for the "Департамент по авиации". Thank you! WhisperToMe (talk) 08:29, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

That's perfectly standard Russian. Many committees, commissions, departments, ministries, etc. have names that are constructed in this way, with по + dative indicating the body's sphere of competence. --Amble (talk) 02:10, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Oh? I was assuming it was the genitive, not the dative. In any case, the OP has the Cyrillic and Latin and can let us know if he wants more. μηδείς (talk) 02:17, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

In Belarus Belarusian is rather a political and propagandist symbol of independence and "non-Russianness" than an actual mean of official communication, so nobody concerns about using it. Imagine if Austria made Austro-Bavarian a state language, everybody would still use Hochdeutsch.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 05:31, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

It reminds me of how Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia don't make French an official language as a way of showing their independence, but in reality the governments and the business/elite use the French language especially in certain sectors (business, science, and technology) WhisperToMe (talk) 08:30, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

But French and Arabic are not relative in any sense, while Standard Russian and Belarusian are akin to Hochdeutch and German dialects. The main difference that Germany and Austria were lucky not having communist national policy "divide and rule", otherwise we'd now have Bavaria, Thuringia, Saxonia and many other republics.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 10:31, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Note that the full name of the department, as given on that page, is "Департамент по авиации Министерства транспорта и коммуникаций Республики Беларусь" (Aviation Department of the Ministry of Trasnport and Communication of the Republic of Belarus). -- Vmenkov (talk) 19:24, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Thank you WhisperToMe (talk) 04:45, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

term of address

Can "monitor" be used as a term of address in English, as in Chinese, to refer to the student who helps the teacher to take charge of a class? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.202.187.153 (talk) 01:56, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Broadly speaking, no. doktorb _words^deeds 02:17, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

It wouldn't be a term of address, it would simply be a job or a task in that circumstance. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:18, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

The OP should give an example. It would be perfectly understood if someone said, "Monitor, can I have the hall pass for the lavatory?" μηδείς (talk) 02:19, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Now that I think of it, Proctor might be the better term. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:34, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Well, if you can address the teacher as "teacher", you can address the monitor as "monitor", or proctor as "proctor". In my schooling we had proctors, who were teachers, for standardized testing, and we had monitors, who were often non-teachers, for the hallway or when the teacher had to step out from class momentarily. They could all be addressed by title if you didn't know their last name. μηδείς (talk) 03:10, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

True. Probably a good improvement over, "Hey! You!" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:21, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but it would almost never happen. In Chinese such terms of address are routine, while in English they would sound decidedly odd unless special circumstances encouraged them. — kwami (talk) 04:44, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree they are not routine in English, if you know the person's name. But saying, "Excuse me, teacher" to a teacher whose name you don't know (or proctor, or monitor) is perfectly normal. Or it was 40 years ago. μηδείς (talk) 04:54, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Even "sir" or "ma'am" would do. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:49, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

40-and-a-bit years ago I would not have dared to address an unknown teacher (or most known ones) as anything other than "Sir". The female equivalent would have been "Miss", but that option didn't apply at my school (we had "masters", not "teachers"). AndrewWTaylor (talk) 13:00, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

30-and-a-bit years ago when I was in school in Texas it was considered quite low-class (and mostly associated with Chicanos) to address a teacher as "Miss" without a last name. Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:14, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

That's why "ma'am" is better. It's a sign of respect. If they would rather be called something else, they will let you know. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:19, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

It depends a lot where you are. In some places, young women can be offended at being called ma'am because to them it suggests matronliness. In the South and Texas, though, girls as young as 14 get called ma'am in stores. Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:02, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

They might be a little annoyed, but I would consider that "ma'am" is safer than "miss", at least in the north. Still better than "hey you", though. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:17, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Actually, just raising your hand might be the best approach. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:36, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

What happens after she notices and acknowledges you? How do you address her? Or would you just start out "What's 2 + 2?"? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 17:53, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Most likely she would come over and say, "Yes?" and you would tell her why you flagged her down. No need to try to invent a title. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:17, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

In historically English-speaking countries (UK, US but not Singapore) there is no such job as 'class monitor' (班长). Matt's talk 02:36, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Depends how far back you go. The Monitorial System and its variants found favour not just in Britain but also its Empire. Thus, there may well be places where the terminology remains in current use. BrainyBabe (talk) 12:53, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

the usage of "fresh"

I know we can say "He was fresh from college." ,but I wonder if the following sentences are acceptable:He was fresh from his dreams(meaning "He just woke from his dreams.");The cicada was fresh from its slough(meaning "The cicada has just cast off its slough."). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.202.187.153 (talk) 04:10, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

I'd have a hard time understanding what you meant. I would probably think you meant "refreshed". — kwami (talk) 04:19, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

"Fresh" implies "new".[1] I don't know that it works so well in reference to awakening. It might work for the cicada. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:25, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but I think the connotation would be different than just a freshly-cast skin: It would imply that the cicada was renewed. — kwami (talk) 04:43, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

• It's a bit poetic, but perfectly understandable. I would only use it in fiction or poetry, not in speech of formal writing. It would mean someone had "just done" something. μηδείς (talk) 04:57, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

  Agreed. I wouldn't use it, but I would certainly have no issue understanding it. Mingmingla (talk) 05:25, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Major supermarket chains in my country seem to have redefined fresh to mean recently thawed. The word is be becoming quite flexible. HiLo48 (talk) 07:13, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, the word is certainly becoming more flexible, though it traditionally has a more restricted usage here in the UK, where the OP's sentences would probably be understood, but regarded as American English. If the OP is writing for a British readership, then these usages of fresh are best avoided. Dbfirs 08:52, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree. Words like 'freshman' and the related 'sophomore' are completely incomprehensible to Brits. I still have no idea what a 'sophomore' is, and don't tell me, because if I really was interested, I could just look it up. We just say 'first year', 'second year', etc. A 'fresh man' would sound like something George Orwell would be very happy to be with, while 'sophomore' sounds more like someone who would be singing in an opera or something. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 10:26, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

"Completely incomprehensible" is a bit strong. The prevalence of US culture in the UK means that the terms are quite widely understood, but are seen as almost the quintessential examples of Americanisms that would never be used by Brits. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:11, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

The OED says that "freshman" is now "chiefly N. Amer.", but it was used in British English for hundreds of years, and was still current when I was one at Cambridge in 1972. Nowadays the non-gender-specific "fresher" is more common, and Freshers' Week is a feature of British universities, though perhaps the word has been re-imported from the US. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 12:45, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

(ec)The term "freshman" goes back to 1590,[2] so it likely has British origins. One sense of "fresh" is "pure", which implies that a freshman is "innocent" or naïve in the ways of the world (or at least of the university). The term "sophomore" is traceable to the 1680s.[3] It is usually taken to mean "wise fool", but it really means someone who "knows just enough to be dangerous". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:48, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

In American high schools, sophomore year is the year you learn to stop spelling it sophmore. Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:51, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

A false friend anecdote: I was once briefly confused when I was visiting an Italian client who asked me if I wanted "a fresh drink". He was mentally translating from fresco, and meant a cold drink, as in Coca Cola or similar. (He also told me that Italians never use al fresco in the way it's used in English). AndrewWTaylor (talk) 12:55, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

The EO entry I cited earlier indicates that "fresh" amounts to convergency from two different sources of somewhat different meaning. Fresco is used for both "fresh" and "cool" in Spanish, and if you think about it, in English we use those terms as near-synonyms: fresh air vs. cool air, e.g. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:28, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Back to the original Q, "He was fresh from his dreams..." does sound like it means "refreshed", while "Fresh from his dreams..." (without the "He was") doesn't. StuRat (talk) 14:39, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't think that's what he means. He's comparing it with "fresh from college", i.e. "newly graduated", not "refreshed". Maybe the OP could comment or help clarify this further. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:43, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

I realize that he doesn't mean "refreshed", but was agreeing with the previous post that "He was fresh from his dreams" does rather give that impression. StuRat (talk) 14:49, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

It could be read either way. "Fresh from..." whatever could mean "Having just left..." one status and moved into another. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:55, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Bugs, until you said "newly graduated" I saw it as meaning they had just arrived here from the college. They may have been attending, teaching at, visiting, graduated or some other thing. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 17:17, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

It's a bit context-sensitive, isn't it? "She was fresh from a cold shower", might very conceivably mean either "refreshed" or "recently". "Fresh" has another meaning in the UK as well; per Chambers (though not Wiktionary) "said of behaviour: offensively informal; cheeky", as in "don't you get fresh with me, young man". English. Dontcha just love it? Happy New Year, chaps, by the way. Tonywalton ^Talk 01:06, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes. As noted in my first link, near the top of this section, that's yet another convergence. It comes from a German word whose meaning is "cheeky, insolent". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:57, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

American English pronunciation of 2 vowels

I hear this person pronounce the word "neural". Let us focus on his pronunciation of the 1st syllable in the word "neural." Whereas most dictionaries claims it should be pronounced ˈnu̇r-əl (as the vowel in "full"), I hear him say the vowel in the 1st syllable of "neural" as the vowels in "word". I have heard many people do the same for the vowel in the first syllable of "neuroscience". Any comments or explanations will be appreciated.--98.88.149.159 (talk) 15:28, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

It's extremely common in American English for /ʊr/ (the vowel of foot plus r) to become /ɝ/ (the vowel of nurse), especially after palatal and palatoalveolar consonants. This includes /j/ (the y sound), even though in the case of neural/neuro- the /j/ disappears in most American accents. Another familiar example is surely becoming homophonous with Shirley; it's also common in Europe, urine, pure, cure, mature, mural etc. Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:20, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

"Rural", "bureau", "during", too.

Fantastic. Thanks a bunch.--98.88.149.159 (talk) 18:20, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

I'll agree with Angr's comments, but in my dialect the vowel is /ɔr/ and neural rhymes with rural and during, all of which rhyme with for and horse. μηδείς (talk) 20:34, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

(Slightly off-topic, but related) In the UK, of course, we usually retain the /j/, but I notice that most pronunciation guides seem to indicate three syllables for neural in RP (/ˈnjʊərəl/). I've always pronounced it /ˈnjuːrəl/. Am I mispronouncing the word? Do RP speakers really use three syllables these days? Dbfirs 22:22, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

See "centering diphthong"... -- AnonMoos (talk) 13:51, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. So it's not meant to be three syllables, just a centring of the first vowel? Dbfirs 21:03, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

No, there are two syllables, /ʊə/ is one vowel. Imagine the word neure and add the suffix -al, you'll then get bisyllabic neural.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 23:23, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

The /ʊə/ transcription of long u is typical of British sources. American sources tend to use /uw/. μηδείς (talk) 03:50, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Perhaps my pronunciation is more like /ˈnjuwrəl/. I see now why the /ʊə/ appears. I can't imagine the word "neure" other than as an old spelling of "never" Do you pronounce it /nœʁ/? Dbfirs 09:23, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Angr -- as was discussed here about a month or two ago, it's extremely common in American English for the development of earlier ʊr / uːr and the development of earlier ɜːr to approach each other in vowel quality, but I'm not sure that a straight-up full unconditional merger between the sounds is actually all that common. "Shirley"/"surely" is not necessarily all that great an example, because [ʃ] often induces some lip-rounding. Probably a better question to ask is whether "pure" and "purr" really rhyme exactly (or would be pronounced identically if the [j] semivowel were removed from "pure"). For me, the answer is no... AnonMoos (talk) 14:01, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

For me, the merger is complete, provided I make it at all, which I don't necessarily. I'm least likely to do the /ʊr/ → /ɝ/ change with monosyllables like cure and pure, but during is a perfect rhyme of stirring, and mural is a perfect rhyme of referral. Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:00, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Where I come from (the American Midwest), neural and bureau are pronounced "nyural" and "byureau", while rural and during don't have that "y" sound thrown in there. In fact, trying to say "ryural" or "dyuring" would be very difficult to do. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:00, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Baseball bugs -- the main American English change is a drop of the "y" sound when the combination of a "coronal" (or middle of the mouth) consonant + a "y" sound is found within the same syllable. A "y" sound was dropped after "r" long ago even in British English, but after the other consonants [t, d, θ, ð, s, z, l, n] British English retains a "y" (IPA [j]) which has dropped in American. The "y"-dropping doesn't apply in cases such as "menu", however, where the [nj] cluster isn't obligatorily part of a single syllable. If you pronounce "new" as [nuː] but "neural" as [njʊrəl], then the existence of the "y" sound in the latter word is probably a secondary phenomenon. AnonMoos (talk) 01:17, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Most of us are probably aware we have the article (section, actually)Yod-dropping, but for any reader who isn't, there's the link.--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 01:29, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

I have always said "dyuring" (approaching "juring"), never "doo-ring". It's not hard at all, Bugs. No harder than "dew ring" (pron. dyoo, of course) or "jew ring". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 11:15, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

It's common in Australia to pronounce it like "dyuring" or "juring". It's certainly not a difficult pronunciation, and this kind of 'j' sound (not the same as the IPA's /j/ which sounds like a 'y') is even represented phonetically as /dʒ/, and is present in the word jury (even in US pronunciation). I can't think of any English dialect that would pronounce rural as "ryural"(?)--Jeffro77 (talk) 11:58, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

That's a mistaken assertion, there's no /j/ in the American pronunciation of jury any more than there's a /j/ in John. μηδείς (talk) 19:22, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Jeffro said the sound is "not the same as the IPA's /j/ which sounds like a 'y'". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:26, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Where I come from, the "dur" part of "during" rhymes with burr, cur, fir, fur, her, purr, sir and were. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:39, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

I'll accept that pending clarification, Jack, but Jeffro seems to equate dyuring and juring with during and to analogize that with jury, even the American pronunciation. Whatever he meant to or did say, almost all Americans drop the pre-vocalic yod in jury. μηδείς (talk) 19:43, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

How can you tell? If I try to put a yod there, it doesn't sound any different. Well, maybe very slightly, but I'd never notice it. --Trovatore (talk) 20:05, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

You might try saying /dʒa/ and /dʒja/ where the difference is quite obvious, and it becomes clear that most Americans do not say /dʒjuw/, but say /dʒuw/. It also helps if you are used to attending to palatalization in languages like Russian where it is much more salient. μηδείς (talk) 20:19, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

OK, everyone needs to realize that there is no single "American" answer to these questions. For instance, I (an American) have yod-dropping in tube but not in news (to be explicit, I say "toob" and "nyooz"), and I flip-flop on during. --Trovatore (talk) 19:58, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

"Bitcoin" vs. "bitcoin" in this sentence

Vis-à-vis the FAQ at the Bitcoin talk page, is the following correct?

... enable businesses to accept bitcoin payments online ...

Should it be the following? Why/why not?

... enable businesses to accept Bitcoin payments online ...

Context.

--Mortense (talk) 17:26, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Is bitcoin considered a proper noun? For example, you wouldn't probably say "Dollars" instead of "dollars" unless you were using it in a title. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:40, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, according to the referenced FAQ. It is different from dollar (for whatever reason). Suppose it is a proper noun, which of the two sentences are correct? "payment" smells like actual bitcoins being talked about. However, is "Bitcoin payments" an isolated entitiy? (I am not sure I use the right terminlogy here). --Mortense (talk) 00:54, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Trademarks which start out as pseudowords

Is there a term for trademarks that start out essentially as pseudowords, i. e., words that are pronounceable (ideally, across many different languages) but are intentionally designed to be unique and not suggestive of any particular meaning? I'm thinking of the names of typical start-ups and Internet-based companies, where names that are unique but easy to pronounce and remember are in high demand, not only because of trademark distinctiveness but especially to ensure cheap availability of domain names. I remember seeing a whole list poking fun of these "engineered" names by mixing them with the names of African rivers because the trademarks, too, tend to sound vaguely "African" due to their simple phonotactics, straightforward spelling (from a non-English non-vowel-shift point of view) and heavy reliance on vowels such as a, o and u. It's a bit like the lexicon-creating part of conlanging, with auxlang-like phonotactics but artlang-like exoticness and unrecognisability ... --Florian Blaschke (talk) 19:03, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Do you have some examples? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:39, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't know of a specific term for such trade names, but they certainly long predate the Internet—see, for example, Eastman Kodak#Name. Deor (talk) 22:28, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Brand#Types of brand names just calls it a neologism but new and improved, bigger and better than ever. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:30, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

I've found the list again: auslisten.de. Here's a comment (in German) explaining the association quite nicely. The Wall Street Journal has a different take on odd start-up names. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:21, 2 January 2014 (UTC)