Talk:Evolution: Difference between revisions
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The capability of evolution through selection to produce biological processes and networks optimized for a particular environment has greatly interested mathematicians, scientists and engineers. There has been some recent success in implementing these ideas for artificial uses, including [[genetic algorithm]]s, which can find the solution to a multi-dimensional problem more quickly than standard software produced by human intelligent designers, and the use of evolutionary [[fitness landscape]]s to optimize the design of a system<ref>For optimizing the design of a large interferometer array using an evolutionary fitness landscape, see {{cite journal|url=http://ukads.nottingham.ac.uk/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?bibcode=2003SPIE.4838..119B&db_key=AST|title=Interferometric "fitness" and the large optical array|first=David|last=Buscher|coauthors=Haniff|date=2003|journal=Proceedings of the SPIE|volume=4838|pages=110-125|accessdate=2007-03-17}}</ref> Evolutionary optimization techniques are particularly useful in situations in which it is easy to determine the quality of a single solution, but hard to go through all possible solutions one by one. |
The capability of evolution through selection to produce biological processes and networks optimized for a particular environment has greatly interested mathematicians, scientists and engineers. There has been some recent success in implementing these ideas for artificial uses, including [[genetic algorithm]]s, which can find the solution to a multi-dimensional problem more quickly than standard software produced by human intelligent designers, and the use of evolutionary [[fitness landscape]]s to optimize the design of a system<ref>For optimizing the design of a large interferometer array using an evolutionary fitness landscape, see {{cite journal|url=http://ukads.nottingham.ac.uk/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?bibcode=2003SPIE.4838..119B&db_key=AST|title=Interferometric "fitness" and the large optical array|first=David|last=Buscher|coauthors=Haniff|date=2003|journal=Proceedings of the SPIE|volume=4838|pages=110-125|accessdate=2007-03-17}}</ref> Evolutionary optimization techniques are particularly useful in situations in which it is easy to determine the quality of a single solution, but hard to go through all possible solutions one by one. |
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== Happy Birthday [[Clarence Darrow]] == |
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A bit of an off-topic note... today is [[Clarence Darrow|Clarence Darrow's]] birthday. He was the defending attorney at the [[Scopes Monkey Trial]]. The script of the play and film [[Inherit the Wind]] uses actual trial transcripts in the courtroom scenes, oftentimes using the exact words that were spoken by [[Clarence Darrow|Darrow]] and [[William Jennings Bryan|Bryan]] (although the play and film both take some creative liberties as well). [[Spencer Tracy]] pulled off a remarkable portrayal of Darrow in the first version of the film. Clarence Darrow was a true intellectual whose courtroom arguments in defense of Scopes were powerful and sound. This is a fascinating chapter of American History and I encourage you to have a look at it if you're interested. Thanks, [[User:TxMCJ|TxMCJ]] 17:55, 18 April 2007 (UTC) |
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:Guys, for future notice stuff like this and the "Moment of silence for Kurt Vonnegut" and the like would probably be better-placed at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Evolutionary biology]]. This talk page is solely for discussing the [[Evolution]] article, not for notifications of any kind that might be of interest to evolution-involved editors. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 18:56, 18 April 2007 (UTC) |
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::No problem -- thanks for the advice. Will crosspost and keep this kind of thing off this page in the future. Although a mention of the Scopes trial (or at least a link to it) might fit in the article somewhere (although admittedly that wasn't my point in posting this...) Thanks, [[User:TxMCJ|TxMCJ]] 19:13, 18 April 2007 (UTC) |
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:::Perhaps under "social effect", if we decide to expand our coverage of creationism (which I'd been considering, to address things like [[intelligent design]]). Probably not, though, since isolated incidents like the Scopes trial aren't very enlightening outside of their historical context, and providing the context alone will probably take up a lot of space. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 19:18, 18 April 2007 (UTC) |
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::Speaking of monkeys, maybe chimps is a bit off topic, but [http://www.livescience.com/animalworld/070417_chimps_evolve.html Chimps More Evolved Than Humans] struck me as interesting, describing the effect of genetic drift in small populations. .. [[User:Dave souza|dave souza]], [[User talk:Dave souza|talk]] 20:03, 18 April 2007 (UTC) |
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::I think there is also a hypothesis or some evidence that all living chimps are descended from a Founder effect of resistance to a HIV-like virus as I recollect reading. [[User:GetAgrippa|GetAgrippa]] 01:15, 19 April 2007 (UTC) |
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:::Erm. Well, from that crappy summary, I garner that it's not talking about drift but about positive selection. I can't find the actual paper on the PNAS website - anyone got a link? [[User:Graft|Graft]] | [[User_talk:Graft|talk]] 21:26, 19 April 2007 (UTC) |
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::::I couldn't find the PNAS article either, but did find other related articles. It must be an early release for online PNAS subscribers only. Weird?[[User:GetAgrippa|GetAgrippa]] 00:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC) |
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== [[Charles Darwin]] made FA today == |
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Just in case you skip the main page and head right over to fight the Evolution-Creation wars. I'm watching the article, just to see what creative vandalism is employed. Not much interesting so far. [[User:Orangemarlin|Orangemarlin]] 00:42, 19 April 2007 (UTC) |
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:OOOOOoooops. Just noticed the warning in the previous conversation. Sorry. [[User:Orangemarlin|Orangemarlin]] 00:42, 19 April 2007 (UTC) |
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::That's OK, this is at least much more directly relevant to the [[Evolution]] article, considering the immense importance of the [[Charles Darwin]] article to this one. We should expect some more activity around this article in the near future, as a side-effect of the greatly increased activity at that article; with that in mind, it may be sensible to un-semiprotect this article, for the same reason that FAs are unprotected when they appear on the main page: we'll get a lot of new users here who may be lured into becoming future Wikipedia editors if given a chance to experiment a little. I think the long-term benefits of that outweigh any short-term vandalism concerns. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 05:26, 19 April 2007 (UTC) |
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== Article milestones == |
== Article milestones == |
Revision as of 00:35, 27 April 2007
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Evolution article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Keeping things simple RE: (Pattern/Process, and Theory/Fact.)
I realize immediately upon posting this new section, that this could erupt into the "least simple" debate one could imagine... and that's sort of my point. I suggest that we try to view all of the above discussions as indicative of the distinction that is made across many sciences, the distinction between pattern and process. You observe a pattern. You discover or propose the process. The process describes the pattern you observed. Note that this is not "hypothesis testing" -- you still have to design experiments to test the validity of the process you propose (which of course is why Evolution is science and ID is not.) I think keeping a distinction between pattern and process is the simplest way to organize one's thoughts within any science.
Pattern: Life is diverse. Process: Speciation (which of course has several sub-processes)
Pattern: Taxa are naturally ordered hierarchically. Process: Shared ancestry/common descent (has sub-processes)
Pattern: Taxa show ranges that are either continuous or disjunct. Process: Historical relationships between lineages and land areas.
Pattern: Variation exists in every species. Process: Mendelian genetics
Pattern: Homology. Process: Phylogeny
Pattern: Allele frequencies in a population. Process: selection, gene flow, drift
Pattern: Fossil record shows forms that no longer exist. Process: Evolution over time, and extinction
et cetera. Note that this "pattern/process" distinction is not some clever tool I am coming up with on the spot to help solve our problems. It's really the way that almost all sciences are structured.
OK, now: you might want to make the logical leap and say that pattern is fact, process is theory. Makes sense at first, however, that is not really the best distinction to make, as even the processes above are now regarded as "facts" in the same way that any other "fact" outside of formal logic or geometry becomes accepted as "fact". I know the FAQ covers this and that most of us understand the distinction, yet it seems like we spend a lot of time dwelling on it, and I'm not sure why.
My second point on this, therefore, is please let us not bog our readers down (and our discussions down) with too much cud-chewing on theory and fact, and "what gets categorized as theory, what as fact". All the article needs to state is the following concise points: 1.) Theory and hypothesis are not synonyms (in science); 2.) Evolution is a theory (a body of ideas and processes that accurately describe data), much like Number Theory or Atomic Theory -- and thus it is not a concept that is somehow "still on the table awaiting proof"; 3.) The core conclusions of Evolutionary Biology are also facts (selection, change over time, shared ancestry, old Earth) by the same definition that any other falsifiable hypothesis that matches the data perfectly every time, eventually becomes accepted as fact. End of that story. Need not elaborate. Move on to the article.
I argue for a simplification of all of the above, mainly because most people are not going to have the patience (and maybe not the cerebral constitution either) to join us in our deep contemplations of theory and fact. I know the distinction is made in the FAQ, but I also think our own discussions on this page could be simplified and cleaned up a bit by not referring to "fact" and "theory" as much, as if a quality article requires us to somehow categorize the information for our readers (it doesn't). Thanks, TxMCJ
"See also"
Guys, I have to admit I liked it better when we had a short "see also" section rather than trying to cover every conceivable aspect of the topic in stubs inserted in the main body. I know it's a pain to keep reverting people who well-meaningly insert long lists of links to relevant topics, but hopefully, placing a comment in capital letters in the wikitext will stave off some of the flood. For instance, it would be far preferable to have a link to evolutionary biology rather than devote an entire section of the article to unsupported speculation of what the scope of different subfields is and how they are related to each other. Samsara (talk • contribs) 09:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
- We already have links to Evolutionary biology at both the top and bottom of the article, through the use of templates. A "see also" link would thus be entirely redundant. The reason we have (and clearly should have; no one except you has ever in the history of the article agreed on the point that a discussion of the scientific field studying evolution is out-of-place in the evolution article!!) a section on evolutionary biology is because it's immensely important and relevant (much more so than the "social effect" section!), not because we're looking for an excuse to provide yet another link to it.
- If you think the section has "unsupported speculation", then add references and note any dubious unreferenced information; improve the section, don't continuously mass-delete it in flagrant disregard for consensus and the entire editorial process. -Silence 14:09, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
- Dude, don't lecture me on policy. Just because I'm the first to criticise the inclusion of that section doesn't discredit my point. The article is about evolution, not the study of it. Separate article, please. And just to return the favour, please remember WP:OWN. Thanks. Samsara (talk • contribs) 20:01, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, this article is about evolution, but clearly the study of evolution is relevant to an article on evolution! I see no problem with shortening the current section (and, indeed, I already proposed doing exactly that above), but deleting it altogether is even more absurd than deleting, say, the "social effect" section (which this article also isn't "about", since it's about evolution, not the social impact of evolutionary biology).
- And, um? I'm not "lecturing you on policy"; I didn't even cite any policies above. I simply disagreed with your point, and explained why. I didn't say that the fact that you're the first to criticize the inclusion "discredits your point"; I merely pointed out, correctly, that you should wait for some degree of consensus (or at least a little discussion!) before rushing to (repeatedly) mass-delete a major section of a high-profile article. I didn't say that you're wrong because no one else has done what you did before; that would obviously be absurd, and Wikipedia relies on people doing things that no one's done before. Rather, I pointed out that all past editors have seemed to support the section, and therefore you should discuss the issue rather than immediately assuming that one editor (yourself) is necessarily correct, while everyone else who's worked on the section as been wrong.
- There is no "favor" to return, as I didn't quote any policy at you, although WP:OWN would be much more appropriately ascribed to you than to me, as I haven't claimed that my own personal opinion outweighs editorial consensus; hell, I didn't even revert your last change, because I wanted to give you time to make your case—though I'll do so now!
- Your comment suggests that you didn't read my comment, and that your time would be better-spent reviewing Wikipedia's WP:CIVIL policy than mass-deleting other editors' work without any discussion. Even I didn't do that, and my recent reorganization efforts on this article have been much more severe than yours—plus I discussed all major changes here first. Please reconsider this antagonizing and bullying of other editors; Wikipedia relies on discussion, not revert-wars. -Silence 21:54, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
- Samsara, I really appreciate your blunt honesty, especially with regards to Creationist POV sneaking into articles. I wish you were around a few days ago for some of the crap happening here and in the Intelligent Design article. However, although I agree that shortening the natural selection part is useful, I'd hate to waste the good writing, and since natural selection is a critical part of the evolutionary process (if not the only part of the process), isn't cutting out as much as you wish defeating the clarity and the science of the article? I really hate seeing two pro-Evolution editors arguing so strongly, when the creationist POV is sneaking into so many articles. Orangemarlin 00:47, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
- This dialogue illustrates my suggestion for a "constitution" to develop this article is a good idea. The constitution would be a plan and rules to implement the plan. It is bad enough to deal with vandals and creationist-I.D. distractions without conscientious editors arguing. If all could agree on a constitution then everyone can argue the details as the article develops. At least the article would finally have structure. The plan aspect of a constitution is moving along, however the rules for implementation and development needs more than standard Wikipedia rules. Even if this article develops to FA quality and excellence in science standard it will still morph into crap within a few months because there is no structure and framework for an excellent article. The standard of "good" and "bad" article (and whatever that means)will always drive change. GetAgrippa 13:46, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
- Which is a good thing. This article will always need to adapt, and most of those adaptations, in the long run, are for the best: just looking at the quality of this article even when it was first accepted as an FA is embarrassing, compared to our current expectations. The same will probably eventually hold true for an article of high quality today, for various reasons. The only "constitution" we should rely on are the policies and goals of Wikipedia, applied to the topic of evolution. If we need much more than that, we're deviating too far from Wikipedia as a whole. The cause of the above dispute was simple: Samsara has some personal grievance with the Evolution editors and with Wikipedia as a whole, so he decided to stir up some trouble by making an overly "extreme" edit without discussing the matter first. We don't need a constitution to resolve one editor's personal problems, especially if that editor is more interested in whining than in discussing practical solutions. Let's just get back to actually improving the article. -Silence 02:09, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
- This dialogue illustrates my suggestion for a "constitution" to develop this article is a good idea. The constitution would be a plan and rules to implement the plan. It is bad enough to deal with vandals and creationist-I.D. distractions without conscientious editors arguing. If all could agree on a constitution then everyone can argue the details as the article develops. At least the article would finally have structure. The plan aspect of a constitution is moving along, however the rules for implementation and development needs more than standard Wikipedia rules. Even if this article develops to FA quality and excellence in science standard it will still morph into crap within a few months because there is no structure and framework for an excellent article. The standard of "good" and "bad" article (and whatever that means)will always drive change. GetAgrippa 13:46, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
- Samsara, I really appreciate your blunt honesty, especially with regards to Creationist POV sneaking into articles. I wish you were around a few days ago for some of the crap happening here and in the Intelligent Design article. However, although I agree that shortening the natural selection part is useful, I'd hate to waste the good writing, and since natural selection is a critical part of the evolutionary process (if not the only part of the process), isn't cutting out as much as you wish defeating the clarity and the science of the article? I really hate seeing two pro-Evolution editors arguing so strongly, when the creationist POV is sneaking into so many articles. Orangemarlin 00:47, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
- I disagree. I have noted many academics leave Wikipedia in frustration. Many believe the mechanics of Wikipedia is failing as in the Wikipedia:Wikipedia is failing essay. Wikipedia has absolutely no credibility with academics or the public in general. I personally like the idea, but I have to agree that it doesn't seem to be working. I personally hope that Wikipedia evolves a new and better way. GetAgrippa 11:48, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
- Which comment are you replying to with this comment? The indention implies you're replying to Samsara. And what does this have to do with our discussion above? This Talk page is for discussing Evolution, not for implementing new general Wikipedia-wide policies. -Silence 14:10, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Unexplained deletion
Actually explained at great length |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
I noticed the large section below was deleted a few edits back with "spelling" as the explanation. Seems like obvious vandalism but I thought I'd put it here instead of reverting since it looks like you guys are in the process of overhauling the article. Aelffin 13:08, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
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Modern research
Academic disciplines
Scholars in a number of academic disciplines continue to document examples of evolution, contributing to a deeper understanding of its underlying mechanisms. Every subdiscipline within biology both informs and is informed by knowledge of the details of evolution, such as in ecological genetics, human evolution, molecular evolution, and phylogenetics. Areas of mathematics (such as bioinformatics), physics, chemistry, and other fields all make important contributions to current understanding of evolutionary mechanisms. Even disciplines as far removed as geology and sociology play a part, since the process of biological evolution has coincided in time and space with the development of both the Earth and human civilization.
Evolutionary biology is a subdiscipline of biology concerned with the origin and descent of species, as well as their changes over time. It was originally an interdisciplinary field including scientists from many traditional taxonomically-oriented disciplines. For example, it generally includes scientists who may have a specialist training in particular organisms, such as mammalogy, ornithology, or herpetology, but who use those organisms to answer general questions in evolution. Evolutionary biology as an academic discipline in its own right emerged as a result of the modern evolutionary synthesis in the 1930s and 1940s. It was not until the 1970s and 1980s, however, that a significant number of universities had departments that specifically included the term evolutionary biology in their titles.
Evolutionary developmental biology (informally, evo-devo) is a field of biology that compares the developmental processes of different animals in an attempt to determine the ancestral relationship between organisms and how developmental processes evolved. The discovery of genes regulating development in model organisms allowed for comparisons to be made with genes and genetic networks of related organisms.
Physical anthropology emerged in the late 19th century as the study of human osteology, and the fossilized skeletal remains of other hominids. At that time, anthropologists debated whether their evidence supported Darwin's claims, because skeletal remains revealed temporal and spatial variation among hominids, but Darwin had not offered an explanation of the specific mechanisms that produce variation. With the recognition of Mendelian genetics and the rise of the modern synthesis, however, evolution became both the fundamental conceptual framework for, and the object of study of, physical anthropologists. In addition to studying skeletal remains, they began to study genetic variation among human populations (population genetics); thus, some physical anthropologists began calling themselves biological anthropologists.
The capability of evolution through selection to produce biological processes and networks optimized for a particular environment has greatly interested mathematicians, scientists and engineers. There has been some recent success in implementing these ideas for artificial uses, including genetic algorithms, which can find the solution to a multi-dimensional problem more quickly than standard software produced by human intelligent designers, and the use of evolutionary fitness landscapes to optimize the design of a system[1] Evolutionary optimization techniques are particularly useful in situations in which it is easy to determine the quality of a single solution, but hard to go through all possible solutions one by one.
Article milestones
Perhaps "Article milestones" at the top could contain a link or two to the prefered version(s) of longtime editors of this article that feel it has gotten worse or that there is something special to recommend that previous version. WAS 4.250 16:39, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- I don't think this article's ever been consistently high-quality enough for there to be much of a point in isolating a version for general quality. On the other hand, we might isolate versions that have high quality in specific areas (e.g., a certain layout, certain well-done sections, certain images, and other things that might have subsequently deteriorated), which we can use to improve the current section. Although I don't think the article, taken as a whole, has ever been a lot better than it is today (and if it is, that's only because the current article layout and contents are in a transitional period following a major restructuring and reprioritization), I do think there are many aspects of the article that were better at various times. -Silence 16:49, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Asexual to sexual
How did organisms go from asexual reproduction to sexual reproduction? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rhydd Meddwl (talk • contribs) 22:59, 23 April 2007 (UTC).
- You should know better than this, Rhydd Meddwl!;) Please add new comments to the end of the page! Now, this isn't a big problem at all: there are clear evolutionary advantages to sexual reproduction. For its origins, see here. garik 01:55, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
- In eukaryotes it's generally the other way around -- asexual lineages are well-rooted within sexual lineages, and tend to be less diverse TxMCJ 04:28, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
- What the...? This is a HUGE problem. Even the page you linked to says, first off, "The evolution of sex is a major puzzle in modern evolutionary biology." Graft | talk 17:58, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
- Well, OK, I did overstate that rather; you're quite right – I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote it. On the other hand, I'm not convinced that that first line doesn't overstate its case somewhat too. The difficulty of testing hypotheses makes research into the origin of sexual reproduction very hard, but it's certainly not a major puzzle in the sense that no one has any idea how it might have happened. And it's also not a problem at all for evolutionary biology, in the sense creationists sometimes claim (i.e. they can't see how sex could have originated, so it must have been through design etc.). But yes, there are of course also clear advantages to asexual reproduction. garik 23:49, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
- What the...? This is a HUGE problem. Even the page you linked to says, first off, "The evolution of sex is a major puzzle in modern evolutionary biology." Graft | talk 17:58, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Natural selection of rate of mutation?
A creationist, the other day, put the following to me: supposed declining health and lifespans (yes, from an analysis of the Bible) are due to the iterative passing on of mutations throughout the last 6,000 years (again Bible study). In other words, natural selection, rather than contributing the spread of advantageous mutations, has not succeeded in filtering out deleterious ones. Now, I don't buy this, for both factual and theoretical reasons. But it got me thinking: the force of natural selection, for it to work, has to be stronger than whatever forces of mutation (by whatever means). (*Speculation*: Which, from what I gather from thinking about it, means that there would be a naturally selected "ideal" rate of mutation (by means of DNA repair mechanisms etc.).) My question is: am I thinking about this wrongly, and if not, is there literature on this already? Jameshfisher 23:54, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
- Indeed there is, organisms have even evolved variable mutation rates. link and link TimVickers 00:05, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Credibility, and controversy
Evolution is a Theory but in this article it is discribed as fact, this needs to be rectified, also things such as Ireducible complexity (bacterial flagellum motor etc.) that provide hurdles for evolution theory should be included into the article... 124.181.46.194 01:17, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
- First, you are misunderstanding what the term theory means in science. Theory does not mean guess but rather a well-tested hypothesis with broad explanatory power. Evolution is a theory in the same way that gravity is. Second of all, the overwhelming scientific consensus is that evolution occured and that claims such as Behe's regarding the bacterial flagellum have no basis. As such , Wikipedia's undue weight clause of the neutrality policy comes into play. JoshuaZ 01:58, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
- You are a better man than I Joshua. This BS is getting really old, and I've been doing serious editing for only 4 or 5 months on these articles. I think I'm just reading to tell them to all screw off. Orangemarlin 02:19, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
- I start to wonder if people are being difficult on purpose, or if they do not know how to read, or just like to parrot nonsense some preacher spewed from the pulpit and repeat it in a brainless fashion without giving it any thought whatsoever. I agree with OM. This gets old. Very old. Please people, use your heads. Read. Think. It is the reason God gave you a brain; to use. --Filll 19:51, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
- I believe that it takes people that 'think' to not accept propositions put out by the main stream, establishment science. Most of our great discoveries were made by those who doubted the mainstream beliefs in science. 'Parroting' dogma without allowing questioning of any sort is certainly 'brainless'. 'Please, people' believe what you are told without question. 68.109.234.155 21:44, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
- And you believe I don't "think". My training has been, for at least 30 years, to examine everything with a critical eye. I've read and studied more biology than you could imagine, and if I thought at any point something didn't make sense, I would ask questions. Yes, great ideas come from question the status quo. That would be Darwin challenging the prevailing Christian viewpoint, or Gallileo challenging just about everything that was said. All the evidence, not just 99.9%, but all fit the theory of Evolution. Yes, I'm smart enough to know that maybe someday some piece of evidence will arise that will through the whole theory into doubt. Maybe we will find a fluffy bunny rabbit in Precambrian rocks. Orangemarlin 23:39, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Question posted on FAQ
Moved from Talk:Evolution/FAQ [4]
- I thought that the scientific community believes that life evolved from non-living materials. Was there not an experiment in the early 50s that did something like that? 68.109.234.155 14:53, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the question. In general Wikipedia article talk pages are intended for discussion of how to improve the article, rather than general discussion on the topic. You may have better luck with Wikipedia:Reference desk for these types of questions. Briefly, however, there is a distinction between abiogenesis (life from non-life) and evolution of living creatures. This distinction is important since there is different evidence for each. The former is (probably) a rare event, and fairly speculative, while the latter is well established. The specific experiment you're refering to is probably Miller/Urey. While perhaps many scientists do believe some form of abiogenesis, this is not a component of evolution. You may want to ask this question again at the reference desk for a more detailed response. --TeaDrinker 15:23, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
- I'd would suggest reading the abiogenesis article, since it describes in detail the theories of the formation of life, and, in fact, may answer your questions. Yes, most biologists believe life arose from non-living materials. Orangemarlin 18:03, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
- 'Most biologist believe life 'arose' from non-living material. Did not life evolve from non-living material. Do biologists believe it was a 'sudden appearance' situation? 68.109.234.155 21:46, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
- How you answer that question depends on your definition of life. If there was a slow increase in the complexity of self-replicating chemical systems, at what point in that process do you define the replicating entities as "living things"? To be honest, I don't think the question is answerable in any meaningful way. TimVickers 21:53, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
- This probably is not the best place to have this discussion, but I don't think anyone would mind. Biological evolution begins and continues with living things only. The start of life on earth was essentially a chemical and physical process--Evolution does not define nor include that process in its theories or inquiries. As I recall from my own education (which is about 30 years ago), my evolution courses did not include the study of abiogenesis. Where I first learned about it was in a Biochemistry course, which is the study of the chemistry of living organisms. I recall an interesting philosophical discussion. A virus is essentially a small packet of genetic information and a few chemicals, but it does everything a living thing does, including procreation. The virus might be the link between a soup of chemicals 4 billion years ago and living things. But I really think you should bring these points up elsewhere, specifically WP:Reference desk. Orangemarlin 22:00, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
- But species come from evolution correct. One specie through small steps becomes another one. I think 'living things' can be defined. Just as 'species' can be defined. I really do not see how if evolution can be applied to species it cannot be applied to 'living things' 68.109.234.155 22:03, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
- Do you mean, "Can we say that living things evolved from non-living things"? Not really, although I can imagine a hypothesis that came close to that, involving some generalised Darwinian process – but I can imagine many more that didn't. The point is this: biological evolution is about the evolution of biological things: i.e. living things once life has started. I think we know too little about where life comes from in the first place to say whether the term "evolution" would make much sense if applied to the the steps from non-life to life. garik 22:30, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
- And by the way, just for the sake of correctness: the singular of species is also species. garik 22:31, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
- Do you mean, "Can we say that living things evolved from non-living things"? Not really, although I can imagine a hypothesis that came close to that, involving some generalised Darwinian process – but I can imagine many more that didn't. The point is this: biological evolution is about the evolution of biological things: i.e. living things once life has started. I think we know too little about where life comes from in the first place to say whether the term "evolution" would make much sense if applied to the the steps from non-life to life. garik 22:30, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
- But species come from evolution correct. One specie through small steps becomes another one. I think 'living things' can be defined. Just as 'species' can be defined. I really do not see how if evolution can be applied to species it cannot be applied to 'living things' 68.109.234.155 22:03, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
- But if living things did not evolve from non-living things what other way would they have come about? Supernatural or alien intervention?
- Now here is another point. Why did not dinosaurs achieve human like intelligence? It seems to me evolution would have predicted that smarter creatures would outsurvive the others and eventually what would come about is a continuing increase in intelligence until extinction. 68.109.234.155 22:51, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
- I'd recommend you started by reading this article carefully, will be much easier for people to explain this to you once you understand what evolution is and what it does. Once you have finished doing that, ask your questions at the WP:Reference desk. TimVickers 23:29, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
- I agree. The anonymous user's questions are becoming pejorative in nature. Orangemarlin 23:31, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
- Well, confused at least. Please read what I said carefully: I never said that living things didn't come from non-living things. They almost certainly did. The question is whether "evolution" is an appropriate name for that process. Your second question can be answered quite quickly: you just don't need the kind of brainpower we've got to survive in most environments. Too much is a waste of energy, and the time it takes to nurture human children because of this is a real liability. But please read the article carefully. http://www.talkorigins.org is also good. garik 23:35, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
- ^ For optimizing the design of a large interferometer array using an evolutionary fitness landscape, see Buscher, David (2003). "Interferometric "fitness" and the large optical array". Proceedings of the SPIE. 4838: 110–125. Retrieved 2007-03-17.
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