Talk:Red flag (politics)

The Anthem

What anthem? --212.247.27.34 (talk) 01:40, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Other uses for the Red Flag

As is suggested below in the air force training exercise section, there are other uses and meanings for the Red Flag besides the universal socialist banner.

However, I don't think references to them belong here, and certainly not in the first line of the article. I think we should move them to the disambiguation page, and if they are large enough to span an article, write so.

An alternative can be creating a section labelled "Other uses of the Red Flag". --Gatonegro 12:50, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry I do not know yet how to correctly edit wikipedia but I would like to point out a fact that could perhaps be included in the article. As recently as 1931, a California statute defined display of a red flag as a statement of "opposition to organized government". see: Stromberg v. California As an official legal interpretation of the red flag this should be noted, although it would clearly contradict those eager to maintain the red flag as exclusively a symbol for the brute force correctly associated with Stalinism etc. --thenoticer 15:48, 25 March 2006

Does the red flag belong to Po (teletubby)? Crazy 29 12:51, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Red Flag and the British Labour Party

I know this is the wrong section but I am new to wikipedia editing so apologies. My query is why is there no mention of its first use stated as in 1831??? Was not the first time the red flag flown anywhere was in 1831 on Hirwaun Common during the Merthyr rising. Its a very overlooked historical event everywhere but Wales unfortunately. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.159.91.100 (talk) 02:31, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

"The red flag was the emblem of the British Labour Party from its inception to until the Labour Party Conference of 1986 when it was replaced by a red rose. The red rose has subsequently been adopted by a number of other socialist and social-democratic parties throught Europe."

I believe that the British Labour Party borrowed the rose symbol from continental Europe, rather than the other way around. The French Socialist Party, for example, adopted "the fist and the rose" as its emblem in 1969. Does anyone else have dates for other European socialist parties? Picapica 22:49, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

thumb|100pxThe fist with a rose symbol was adopted by the French Socialist Party in Septembre 1971 from what I gather. (Although it was indeed designed in 1969.) However the rose on its own seems to be a more common symbol among other European socialist parties (Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland) and could rightly be attributed to the Labour. — François 21:44, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The fist and rose was (to my recollection) has been broadly used in Europe, both for socialist organisations such as IUSY and also a number of individual socialist parties including those emerging from fascism in Spain and Portugal. I'd have thought that the British Labour Party's adoption of the rose was inspired by these european precedents. I first came across the logo/image in the late '70s. Is the inspiration of the red rose based on Labour's adoption in '86, or the earlier fist and rose? Which party/organisation started the fist and rose? --DaveLevy (talk) 16:39, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I have amended the article to reflect this discussion--Wickifrank (talk) 15:45, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

The song "The Red Flag" remains the anthem of the British Labour Party, should this be noted? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.121.151.174 (talk) 23:39, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I have so noted in the article--Wickifrank (talk) 15:45, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Red Flag air force training exercise

Red Flag is also an air force training exercise supposedly and apparently simulating each air force member's first ten "missions" or days of war. These first ten are by far the riskiest in anyone's term of war, whether they joined the war at the start or the end. Someone is practically invincible after these first ten days or "missions". While obviously no training can or should perfectly simulate this experience, Red Flag's realism brings it close to the real first ten days or "missions" and is even more difficult and intense than reality. (Difficult and intense in terms of skill, of course. In real combat, one still has to deal with the danger and loss of life.) "Death" replaces death, training failure replaces mission failure, and preparation ensures victory.FET 00:43, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

If you have referances to confirm what you say, prehaps you would like to start a page on this alternative use at Red Flag (Air force training exercise) or something similar. When you have constructed it you could add this line to the top of this Red flag page "Red flag is also an air force training exercise see Red Flag (Air force training exercise)"--JK the unwise 10:28, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

It would appear he has more than are used for this article to "confirm what (you) say." Any other topic category in wiki would get a banner demanding sources, so why not this one? Hmm?--Buckboard 05:47, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Red Flag usage in Russia

In the book The Russian Civil War (1) The Red Army (ISBN 1-85532-608-6) the author (Mikhail Khvostov) says that the Red Flag was traditionally flown from tall buildings in villages with a plague epidemic. He also suggests that because of this, in the Russian Civil War, White Russian armies steered clear of villages held by the Red Army as they saw the Red Flag and thoght the village was diseased.

Is this any good? Perhaps it could be included in the History section of the article (Russia bit),as a historic use of the Red Flag?

PJB 17:02, 26 February 2006 (UTC) (Talkin' to me?)

I'm having problems citing this. For some reason once I've referenced the above info and press SAVE the whole bottom half of the article dissapears! Its the first time I've done this and, even after going to WP:Cite I still cant get it right! Can anyone help! AAAAGGGGHHHH!!!

PJB 18:22, 26 February 2006 (UTC) (Talkin' to me?)

I have added the ref' for you using the {{NamedRef}}/{{NamedNote}} method. I'm not sure what the consensous meathod is as loads of articles use differnt ways.--JK the unwise 13:42, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Cheers

PJB 16:32, 27 February 2006 (UTC) (Talkin' to me?)

More info

This socialist website link mentions the 'Significance of the Red Flag'. Is it useful info to go in the article or as a link? PJB 21:59, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

It mentions early origins/useages PJB 22:01, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Bloodthirsty contradiction?

In the history section it's stated that the red flag came to symbolise a less bloodthirsty message beginning in the early 17th century, but the flag hadn't acquired that reputation until the 18th century, thanks to the Buccaneers (who had became especially sadistic by the time piracy was dying out in the early 18th century), and thanks to the Jacobins of 1792-1795. Before them, it was just a battle-flag. Any objections to removing the sentence?

Did the Paris Commune really use the red flag?

The Paris Commune article says of Lenin:

At his funeral, his body was wrapped in the remains of a red and white flag preserved from the Commune.

But the Red flag article says this:

The red flag subsequently became the banner of the Paris Commune in 1871, at which time it became firmly associated with socialism.

Who is correct? Was the flag of the Paris Commune entirely red? Or was it red and white?

(I posted this question at Talk:Paris Commune but no one volunteered an answer.) — Lawrence King ^(talk) 05:35, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

The red flag was *a* flag used by the Commune - before the time of the Commune it red flags had become a revolutionary tradition, due to their uses in 1789, 1830, 1848 (in the February and June revolutions), etc, by groups that leftists could trace a heritage from. So the sentence "The red flag subsequently became the banner of the Paris Commune in 1871, at which time it became firmly associated with socialism." is a bit misleading, because (a) the flag was already associated with the left by this time, and (b) the Commune doesn't slot neatly with one -ism: it was definately a leftist revolution, but there were many different groups working together in it including different branches of socialists, anarchists, the odd Marxist, etc. 86.160.226.192 (talk) 12:41, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Dates?

The photo of Jean Jaurès (or any photo of a historical event) needs a date. --Isaac R 19:50, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Metaphorical usage: "send up a red flag", "raise a red flag", etc.

What is the origin of the modern methaporical usage of "raising a red flag"? e.g. here, or here or here or here or here or here. The article mentions "In pre-civil war Russia the Red flag was used as a symbol of warning...". Did modern Americans (especially when it comes to résumés and tax returns) really inherit this usage from the Russians? Ewlyahoocom 19:44, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

The red flag was written by james connolly, the scots/irish socailist —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.97.204.35 (talk) 18:08, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

The earliest citation of "red flag" is dated 1777,[1] so I find all the explainations given in the article dubious. The original usage obviously didn't have anything to do with Russia, communism, Jacobins, or bullfighting.Kauffner (talk) 18:36, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

The red flag makes an appearance in Robinson Crusoe (1719) as a pirate flag. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.232.216.21 (talk) 00:33, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

The red flag is an old (16th-17th century) naval flag that signifies 'no quarter given', in other words 'take no prisoners'. As such, it is perhaps the most inflammatory of flags as, when raised, it means that any battle will be to the death. Hence it's use by pirates. This caused consternation during the Surrender of the German Fleet at Scapa Flow, as many of the German crews had embraced Communism and were flying red flags from their ships, until the above fact was pointed out to them. Legally, the British ships accepting the surrender could have opened fire on those flying red flags without any further provocation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.40.252.186 (talk) 08:54, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Manchester United

I very much doubt that the words to the manchester united version of the Red Flag are accurate, primarily because it does not scan - that being the prime concern of football chants.

Any editions? Tomkeene 16:28, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Piracy

I think this article needs to have a lot less about piracy. In the early modern period, the red flag was a flag of defiance used by both pirates and non-pirates. People at the time didn't link it to piracy, as the quote I put in from Chambers Cyclopedia shows. We shouldn't get carried away with the Hollywood notion of pirates as a people with a separate culture and traditions. The use of the red flag by Communists and other socialists is derived from its use by the Jacobins during the French Revolution -- there is no allusion to piracy. Kauffner (talk) 04:53, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

In 18th century France the Bucaneers were well known -- there were plays about them and a few popular books. The general public knew that the red flag was a flag of the Bucaneers, and they knew its meaning -- that "no quarter" would be granted to prisoners. This is why people were so outraged by its use at the Champs de Mars -- and probably why the Jacobins adopted it afterwards. After the prison massacres, the Paris Jacobins sent communiques to their affiliates across the country encouraging them to follow the example by "granting no quarter" to the enemies of the revolution. I'd add this information to the article, but one of the many activists would just delete it. No matter how interesting and pertinent it is -- it's just unacceptable to many people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.232.228.171 (talk) 10:08, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Motorsport

I have added in a section for motorsport, as the flag one of the official flags in use, which has been used across many forms of motorsport, and has a significant meaning to the race.Harvyk (talk) 09:24, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

In the opening paragraph, it says that the first citation for a red flag was in 1602, and then in the same paragraph it goes on to say the first citation was in 1777. Which is it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.231.211.103 (talk) 18:19, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

The actual citations are quotes in the footnotes. The 1602 citation is the sense of defiance in battle, i.e. the political usage. The 1777 citation is a red flag warning of flood. Kauffner (talk) 02:42, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

In Russian popular culture

I included one typical Russian joke about the Red flag, but did not include the second. Here it is:

"Vasily Ivanovich, I did not know that our Anka did not sleep with anyone yet" -- "Petka, why do you think so?" -- "I looked at our sheets in the morning and saw that it was red". -- Vasily Ivanovich: "What a whore! How many times I told her: Do not fuck on our Red Banner!". Biophys (talk) 06:21, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

This is stupid and does not belong in the article. Why don't we then insert silly jokes in every article, as we can find plenty for every topic? -YMB29 (talk) 15:41, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Humor is just as serious matter in wikipedia as pokemon and list of porn stars. This would be not stupid if there were citations from scholarly sources which talk about impact of red flag on Russian folklore. However in this case just citing a couple jokes is clear original research, especially with a commentary that it is "subject of numerous jokes". This is precisely why we don't insert jokes everywhere... but only where they are verifiably notable, e.g., in "Blonde stereotype". - Altenmann >t 16:14, 2 February 2010 (UTC)