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Report of biased article

I would like to report an extremely biased article - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution or Evolution. It is written from the perspective that it is the one and only truth, which is NOT neutral. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ork rule1 (talk • contribs) 15:41, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Alternative viewpoints do not always need to be presented... See WP:UNDUE. Blueboar (talk) 15:52, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification of WP:UNDUE for individual sources

I was talking with a new editor who had expressed concern about a film review being presented in an unbalanced way (the review was overwhelmingly positive, but in the Wikipedia article text the negative part of the review was given equal weighting with the positive parts). He didn't know the words for the problem he was describing, but seemed to be talking about "undue weight" given to the negative aspects. So I was about to point him to WP:UNDUE, which I for some reason remembered having something about how to give a balanced representation of the views of a particular source (as opposed to how the article, overall, should proportionally represent the views of all sources), but then noticed that nothing like this is here.

I'd like to add something to WP:UNDUE, along the lines of: When describing the views expressed in a particular source, discuss them in proportion to their prominence within that source. I don't know where this should be included, or how it should ultimately be written, but I think this is important. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 16:34, 3 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is something similar at WP:Coatrack#Fact picking. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:52, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good idea to include the statement in the article... ♪ ♫ Wifione ♫ ♪ _―Œ^{♣Łeave Ξ мessage♣} 11:14, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

She or it

I am party to a dispute on what Undue means [[1]]. I may have mis-understood Undue. The basics are that I bleive a soures to be being used in way that gives its views undue attention, based mainly on the fact that its a recomendation of a science blog based (if latter ceaveats are accepted) on non scientific reasons (and the person is n ot a scientist anyway). Hta the recomendatiuon is not in fact relevant to the articel, and thqats its a trivial mention anyway. The other side of the deabte says its not undue becasue I amalkking about the person who holds the view itslef. I am in fact mistaken?Slatersteven (talk) 19:02, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps you are mistaken. This is not a question about WP:NPOV, but about WP:RS. You cannot use blogs as WP:RS. The question of due or undue weight would come only after that. ♪ ♫ Wifione ♫ ♪ _―Œ^{♣Łeave Ξ мessage♣} 18:17, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I should explain. I have said on the talk page that this is undue as its diffilcult to see why her views are notable on a this blog. I am asking is that view mistaken and that any one who is published iin a newpaper (as a columnist) can be used as a source regardless of any qulification they may not hold (this is not just about this source I am using it as an example). To word it another way does the rule exclude Joe Blogs who writes a column for the Big newspaper of the world from being used as a source for opinions he is not actualy an expert on?Slatersteven (talk) 12:47, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Allow me to explain Slater's question in a more coherent manner. An article is about "X". A NYT review says "I like X". Slater makes the argument that the review shouldn't be listed in X's entry, because it gives undue weight to the NYTimes. But WP:UNDUE doesn't work that way -- it is the opinion about X itself (i.e. the fact that X is liked) that can be given undue weight, if for instance many other reviewers say "I don't like X", then presenting only positive opinions (regardless of their source) is an undue weight issue.

Undue weight is about the statements/view/opinions/whatever of the sources as they relate to the article subject, not about the sources themselves. A source can of course present reliability or notability issues, but by itself, not undue weight. Fell Gleaming^talk 15:26, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

PLease do not misrepresnt what I say. I have not said it gives undue weight to the NYT (and indead have made it clear its not the HYT I object to) but to the views of one columnist. Moreover the artciel is not about 'X', the artciel is about x and the commentator its not a review its about a problom) says I like 'Y' (and that is the limit of the 'review' a one line comment at the end of an in a four or five paragraph articel).Slatersteven (talk) 16:00, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Slatersteven: it would really help me out if you took a little more time writing your posts. the spelling and grammar errors make it difficult to understand what you're after, and this is not an easy topic to begin with.

That being said, UNDUE refers to representation of a theory or opinion on wikipedia. It does not refer to sources, but rather to how the statements that sources make should appear on the article. Ms. whateverhername made a statement, that statement was printed in the NYT, the NYT is a reliable source for many kinds of statements, all is good to that point. Now we have to ask "How much weight does that statement carry in the discussion about the topic"? A NYT op-ed piece would not carry much weight at all in terms of the science of global warming, but it might carry more weight in terms of the popularity of a blog. It's a question of how the opinion is being used and what its purpose is in the article. --Ludwigs2 18:15, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thats what I thought (more or less). As to the specific case its dfficult to tell what the statement is being used for. it seems to be used to demonstrate an endorsment of the blog, but its difficult to see why this view is significant to the blog.Slatersteven (talk) 11:07, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Some minor edits for clarity

Just tidyied the syntax a little. As far as I can tell, did not change the meaning Nucleophilic (talk) 16:25, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Serious NPOV/SYNTH problem with List of films considered the worst and best

I've started a talk page discussion here. If anyone here is well-versed in the NPOV policy, please participate if you can, because I think these articles' problems need to be hammered out, possibly with deletion. Nightscream (talk) 02:51, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

'equal validity' section

I've removed this section - [2] - since it seems to have been added to the policy with very little discussion. since it's a major shift in policy, it needs more investigation. my specific objections are as follows:

it is specifically geared towards pseudoscience, meaning this should really be in the wp:FRINGE guideline, not in policy.
It shifts the nature of NPOV, implying that editors can and should take a stand on issues above and beyond what is presented in reliable sources, which is a major departure from the principles of NPOV.
It encourages editorial synthesis, since it explicitly suggests that editors should go out of their way to present strongly disapproving opinions.

I'm not averse to the basic idea (particularly as part of the FRINGE guideline), but the phrasing here is poor, and as written tends to contradict some of wikipedia's core principles. at very best it needs a significant revision. --Ludwigs2 02:57, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The section you are removing is essentially a restatement and a clarification of WP:UNDUE. I don't see any problem with it. Blueboar (talk) 03:02, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It actually does not appear to do anything except 1), which can be remedied by some simply rewording. The section you remove advocates the OPPOSITE of 2 & 3, since it makes pretty clear that Wikipedia articles should reflect existing views in reliable sources, reflecting the predominant, mainstream, and majority viewpoints on a topic. I don't see where the removed section is in conflict with anything, at least in spirit. --Jayron32 05:12, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Right, I don't see any objection to the removed section except that it's redundant to the rest of the policy (which doesn't seem to be considered a reason for removing anything, since the editors of this policy seem to love redundancy).--Kotniski (talk) 06:14, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(e/c) If this were a simple restatement of UNDUE then I'd probably have no problem with it, but that would also make it entirely redundant (and thus removable anyway). However, it's not. This 'no equal validity' line of argument is intended to expand UNDUE. put roughly: UNDUE allows us to minimize or exclude fringe theories from mainstream articles, and to qualify fringe articles so that they do not give the appearance of having more prominence than they really have in scientific circles; this 'no equal validity' clause seeks to give editor the right to overrepresent and overstate mainstream positions in order to build arguments that refute fringe theories. The first is reasonable, the second is synthesis. Wikipedia is not here to take a position on these matters by promoting theories or by refuting theories.

honestly, the optimal solution in my view would be to shift this section over to wp:FRINGE (since it clearly is intended to be a clarification of UNDUE for fringe topics), and reword it somewhat so that it is not so blatantly permissive of synthesis. something along the lines of "Wikipedia may not itself be used to validate fringe views. Fringe views may be excluded from articles on scholarly topics where they are not a significant part of the mainstream literature, and where they are included may not be depicted as proven, true, valid, or accepted by the scholarly world beyond what independent sources say. Further, Wikipedia may not itself be used to invalidate fringe views. Wikipedia should describe any fringe view clearly, including critical perspectives and the view's relationship to established scholarship, but should avoid giving the appearance of attempting to debunk or disparage the topic." That should cover both ends of the spectrum sufficiently. --Ludwigs2 06:15, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm confused, how exactly does the text you deleted encourage your last two points? It seems to me that it explicitly prevents an editor from doing what you says it does. As an aside, a version of "giving equal validity" has been a part of the FAQ portion of NPOV since 2003; and it has been a part of NPOV for 17 months now. To me, that makes it seem like eliminating it would be the "major shift in policy"...Yobol (talk) 14:56, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is the way the argument is used (exclusively, as far as I can see). A typical example is that editors working on a fringe topic article (after removing overt advocacy and misrepresentation, as they should), will go on to remove more-or-less neutral material (claiming that it's advocacy) and to pad in SPOV sources (usually from skeptical books and journals) until the article or section becomes an extended criticism of the topic rather than a neutral description of it. Editors who object that this is not a neutral or fair depiction of the topic are countered with the 'Wikipedia does not give equal validity' line, occasionally even extended to a claim that wikipedia does not need to treat fringe topics fairly - playing off the word ambiguity between giving a fringe topic 'fair representation' on mainstream articles (which is nonsense that violates NPOV) and treating a fringe topic with 'intellectual fairness' (which is precisely what NPOV tries to promote).

it's usually evident that these kinds of editors are either unwilling or incapable of grokking the concept of 'intellectual fairness', at least with respect to these topics. if we're going to have policy on this issue, it should reinforce intellectual fairness as a theme, not give wikilawyers a tool to trash fringe articles in the name of science.

And yes, I know all about the NPOV FAQ thing. Let's not get into the that, because it's shoddy wikipolitics. The FAQ only existed in the first place as an effort to sneak some pseudoscience claims into policy through the back door, when there was no consensus for putting them in policy directly. one can't ethically use that speciousness to leverage new policy additions. --Ludwigs2 16:47, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If someone is misinterpreting policy, that is a problem with the editor misinterpreting it, not with the policy itself. Nothing in the text you deleted, as far as I can tell, encourages the behavior of placing too much weight against a fringe topic. Please point to what part of the text you deleted encourages synthesis or encourages taking "a stand above and beyond what is presented in reliable sources," because, frankly, I don't see it.

No idea about "wikipolitics", I only think it's odd to suggest that something that's been in the policy or FAQ of the policy for 7 years is somehow a "major shift in policy". Shrug. Yobol (talk) 17:00, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The FAQ was not, and was never intended to be, policy in its own right. FAQ are for answers frequently asked questions, not for introducing novel ideas. There was a bit of a kerfluffle over this a few months back when someone tried to promote the FAQ to policy status.

With respect to your question, however, let's take the disputed section line by line.

The Wikipedia neutrality policy does not state, or imply, that we must "give equal validity" to minority views [...] If that were the case, the result would be to legitimize and even promote such claims.
- What does this phrase mean? Wikipedia does not 'give validity to' or 'legitimize' anything; we're a tertiary source that describes, not a primary or secondary source that validates. Either this is a poorly phrased revision of UNDUE, where 'give equal validity' really means 'include beyond due prominence', or it specifically intended to imply that wikipedia can and should identify 'valid' theories and promote them over 'invalid' theories. it is usually interpreted in the second manner, and whether that is intentional or merely poor phrasing strikes me as irrelevant. If it's consistently being interpreted badly it should be removed.
Policy states that we must not take a stand on these issues as encyclopedia writers
- This is true, no argument.
but that does not stop us from describing the majority views as such; from fairly explaining the strong arguments against the pseudoscientific theory; from describing the strong moral repugnance that many people feel toward some morally repugnant views; and so forth.
- the 'but' here is used to create a loophole in the statement that we "should not take stands as editors". This phrase explicitly suggests that editors should seek out arguments designed to refute, disparage, or demonstrate 'moral repugnance' towards fringe topics, and that such expressions are protected by policy. In other words, if someone can find a reliable source that says (for instance) "UFOs are a mindlessly unscientific idea that is only believed by stupid people", they can argue for its inclusion in the UFO article on the grounds that it's a fair (if strong) expression of the scientific opinion against UFOs and of the moral repugnance some people feel towards that idea. And then they can include six or ten or twenty similar quotes (if they so desire) on the assertion that they are "describing the majority view as such".

There is a line between (1) including scholarly perspectives to prevent editors from legitimizing fringe theories unduly and (2) encouraging editors to actively debunk fringe theories; this phrasing blatantly erases that line. that's the problem with it. do you see what I mean? --Ludwigs2 18:33, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not going to belabor the point about the FAQ/policy. I still find it strange that you would argue there is a change in policy when something has been interpreted one way for 7 years (and has been policy for 17 months without any real opposition until now) - obviously you disagree, but that's really besides the point.

To your first point, to give undue prominence to fringe theories would be giving them a perception of legitimacy these theories don't have in the reliable sources. I see no problem with acknowledging this fact, and that fringe advocates use Wikipedia to try to gain legitimacy by promoting their pet theories here.

I do not agree with your interpretation of the "but" as a loophole. That sentence is basically a re-statement of UNDUE. It doesn't encourage people to do anything except report what's in the reliable sources, with due weight placed. You seem to be arguing against the behavior of other editors which are violating policy, not illustrating a problem in the policy. Unless I see more substantial consensus that it violates policy, I would support a return of that section to policy. Yobol (talk)

lol - well, I don't suppose you have to agree, but I suggest you give a better explanation than 'That sentence is basically a re-statement of UNDUE'. I mean, an elephant is basically a restatement of a mouse if you ignore all that stuff about size and trunks and ears; everything looks pretty much like everything else if you're willing to squint hard enough. I've given some thoroughly explained reasons why I think this section expands UNDUE in unpleasant ways. They might be good reasons or bad reasons (currently I think they're good, but I'm in discussion mode here so that could change), but those reasons are not going to go away simply because you choose to poo-poo them without discussion. --Ludwigs2 19:47, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't mean to "poo-poo" your reasons, just that I don't agree with them. I don't understand how you're interpreting the words you deleted as to what you say they mean. I am most certainly not in a 'discussion mode'; I tried to see where you're coming from, but don't get it, and don't plan on spending a lot of effort trying to when no one else who has commented seems to either. Yobol (talk) 20:06, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. However, if you really don't see a difference between what this says and what UNDUE says, then I hope you'll do me the grace of allowing me to remove something that you believe is redundant and I happen to dislike. no sense making me suffer something I find disagreeable if it adds nothing that's not said elsewhere. --Ludwigs2 21:44, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wasn't it going to be moved to WP:FRINGE? --Enric Naval (talk) 22:08, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you find it so disagreeable, I have no strenuous objections to its return to just being in the FAQ, though the shortcuts (WP:GEVAL, etc) should probably be redirected back to the FAQ as it was originally. Yobol (talk) 22:19, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Based on Ludwigs' edit summary, which referred to a change in April, I went back and looked at what the page said at the beginning of the month: [3]. There was a shorter, simpler version of the section then. Would that version reduce the aspects that Ludwigs dislikes, to a sufficient degree that restoring it would be a reasonable compromise? --Tryptofish (talk) 22:20, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@ Enric: I was under that impression as well, but somehow it ended up here in policy. probably an honest mistake; stuff like that happens sometimes.

@ Yobol: I don't mean to be pedantic here, but you can't honestly expect that we will retain a section over objections without some explicit reason to retain it. Either this section is - as you said above - indistinguishable from and redundant with UNDUE (in which case there's no reason to retain it at all, anywhere), or this section has a meaning and purpose distinct from UNDUE which makes it useful (in which case you should spell out what the meaning and purpose are so that we can compare it against my objections). This isn't interior decorating (or some such) where we might include material just for 'atmosphere'; this is policy, and policy sections should have a definitive use.

@ Tryptofish: That shorter section is really just a condensed version of what I don't like, so it's not really an improvement. My objection to this section is that the wording is designed to encourage/allow editorial synthesis for the purpose of debunking. Policy does state that we should not take a stand on issues as encyclopedia editors, and we should not allow loopholes (as is the intention of this section) that allow some editors to take stands on some issues. look at the alternate suggestion I gave above (my 06:15, 7 October post): notice how I carefully phrase it to avoid the implication that wikipedia editors can make any judgements on the validity of topics, because making assertions about the validity of a topic is always taking a stand on that topic. --Ludwigs2 07:11, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ludwigs2, how would you address the following situation without the section in question? A fringe topic gets some attention in the press (say someone claims that staring into the sun is a substitute for food, and a couple of followers die from malnutrition, having been blind the last few years of their lives). But practically nobody really takes it seriously, and so there is no discussion of the fringe claims in mainstream sources. Once the topic has been established as notable, it's almost impossible to avoid having an article on it. The only sources for details about the topic are the publications of proponents, who are making reckless and obviously false claims about science. These claims are obviously noteworthy, so there is no way we can avoid reporting that they have been made. There are no reliable sources saying explicitly that these claims are fringe, pseudoscience or even just false. There are scientific sources that clearly contradict the claims, but we cannot mention them 1. per WP:UNDUE, because the scientific facts have 0 weight in the RS coverage of the fringe belief, and 2. per WP:SYN because Wikipedia would be the first to juxtapose the fringe belief and the actual facts it contradicts. (I don't agree with these arguments, but this is how it is argued in practice, often by editors who don't follow the fringe belief. And it's hard to argue against that for a common-sense application of our rules.) As a result there is a clear danger that Wikipedia knowingly exacerbates a real-life problem by publishing a completely unbalanced account of a fringe theory in an environment in which readers are used to relatively neutral encyclopedic articles. Hans Adler 09:32, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I see that section as further clarifying policy, which of course is crucial. Sometimes to make policy clear you need to rephrase things in another way (with examples) to make sure everyone is on the same page as far as how to apply policy. Insomuch as you think the section breaks existing policy, I think you are very much incorrect; I do not strenuously object to it going back to the FAQ where it can further illustrate as to how current policy works (though I prefer it back to where it was before you removed it), but I would very much oppose removal of the section completely as it is important to make clear how to properly apply WP:UNDUE.Yobol (talk) 14:37, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hans: I'd have preferred a statement of the reasons for keeping the section rather than an example of how the section might be useful. examples are fluid, and subject to all sorts of rhetorical problems; statements are far less ambiguous. but I'll work with what you gave me. And incidentally, clarifications of policy for specific topics belong in guidelines, not in policy, so again, maybe we should move the section over to wp:FRINGE and discuss it there...

At any rate, the first thing I would do in this case (frankly) is stop to consider whether I was having an odd dream.

This seems like an unlikely scenario. A cult that advocates something as damaging as starting at the sun until you starve, yet only a couple of people have suffered severe physical harm over two years, and no police have gotten involved, and no newspapers or news media have investigated? I'll accept that you've chosen a 'hard case' for emphasis, but I will note the potential straw man argument implicit in choosing hyperbolic cases.

That aside, let's break it down to cases:

The topic is only discussed in self-published, pro-group sources. Topic in non-notable, and doesn't belong on wikipedia.
The topic is a recent focus of public attention, so journalistic sources exist but are not well-developed. Topic does not belong on wikipedia, per wp:NOTNEWS
The topic is commented on extensively, but only in journalistic sources. In cases like this, journalistic sources will usually do their own synthesis from scientific sources to counter the group's pseudoscientific claims (journalists are allowed engage in synthesis; wikipedia editors are not). The best we can say about science directly here is that the scientific community has not specifically addressed any of these claims.
- Incidentally, skeptical sources are excellent for this purpose - my issue with skepticism on wikipedia is that a lot of editors treat skeptical sources as though they were 'the voice of science' when in fact skeptics are journalists synthesizing scientific understanding on heir own, outside of the scientific community.
The topic is subject to some type of governmental action. FDA restrictions, investigations, court cases... These are useful primary sources for establishing particular risks or dangers inherent in the practice.

All of these cases can be handled effectively under policy without this particular section. The problem here (IMO) is that some editors are stuck in the belief that topics like this need to be 'scientifically' countered and disproven on wikipedia. They don't. Wikipedia editors are not journalists or scientists or police, and we have no mandate to protect people from their own misconceptions or from misconceptions fostered on them by others (per wp:NOTCENSORED). We are only writing an encyclopedia, and only aiming to give the best information on topics we can as it is presented in reliable sources. Even if these groups are causing harm to individuals in the meantime, it is beyond the scope of the project; we have to wait until reliable sources weigh in on the issue. wp:UNDUE prevents questionable science from getting front-page treatment on mainstream topic articles; UNDUE and various sections of wp:NOT (NOTADVOCATE, NOTOPINION, NOTGUIDE, NOTHOWTO, NOTCRYSTAL, NOTSPECULATION), not to mention FRINGE itself, keep questionable science from being overblown as fact on pages dedicated to it. what more do we need than that? --Ludwigs2 18:40, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

'equal validity' convenience break

I'm receptive to Ludwigs' desire to be careful not to introduce unintended consequences, and I also broadly agree with Yobol that it's a net positive to include some wording to elaborate on the concept. Here are ~~two~~ three possible versions that have been discussed above. Thoughts? --Tryptofish (talk) 17:51, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comparison of alternative versions of the section
Old version, pre-April 2010	Version from FAQ by Dave, April 2010
The neutrality policy does not state or imply that we must give equal validity to minority views. Doing so would legitimize and even promote such claims. Policy states that we must not take a stand on these issues as encyclopedia writers, but that does not stop us from describing the majority views as such or from fairly explaining the minority views, when they are noteworthy.	The Wikipedia neutrality policy does not state, or imply, that we must "give equal validity" to minority views such as pseudoscience, the claim that the Earth is flat, or the claim that the Apollo moon landings never occurred. If that were the case, the result would be to legitimize and even promote such claims. Policy states that we must not take a stand on these issues as encyclopedia writers; but that does not stop us from describing the majority views as such; from fairly explaining the strong arguments against the pseudoscientific theory; from describing the strong moral repugnance that many people feel toward some morally repugnant views; and so forth.
Wording proposed by Ludwigs2, above
Wikipedia may not itself be used to validate fringe views. Fringe views may be excluded from articles on scholarly topics where they are not a significant part of the mainstream literature, and where they are included may not be depicted as proven, true, valid, or accepted by the scholarly world beyond what independent sources say. Further, Wikipedia may not itself be used to invalidate fringe views. Wikipedia should describe any fringe view clearly, including critical perspectives and the view's relationship to established scholarship, but should avoid giving the appearance of attempting to debunk or disparage the topic.

This was a longstanding part of policy, incorporated here in the merge from the FAQ as part of the agreed merge of the two sections of the policy, after significant discussion, so I've restored it. Ludwigs2 may feel that we should give more leeway to pseudoscience, but this is a clear statement of an essential aspect of NPOV. The proposal by Ludwigs2 above restates and modifies aspects of policy already covered under weight: tiny minority views don't need to be included, and in articles about a minority view we show its relationship to the majority view. Avoiding giving the appearance of showing clear majority views debunking or disparaging the topic is a new piece of bending over backwards to be nice to fringe views, and would be open to wikilawyering. . . dave souza, talk 18:56, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- This was not part of policy until your edit, Dave - it was part of the FAQ. and the agreement was to merge most of the FAQ into FRINGE, not into NPOV. I'm reverting you again based on the reasons I gave above. when you're ready to present reasons why this section is necessary, please do so and we'll discuss re-inclusion. --Ludwigs2 19:20, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@trypto - I'd forgotten about that third option, which is certainly better than the current version. thanks for including it. --Ludwigs2 21:55, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why are we whispering? (just kidding) I assume the third option to which you refer is the pre-April one, right? If so, could that be a compromise upon which we could agree? --Tryptofish (talk) 22:01, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

'equal validity' warning

No consensus for change has yet been reached. Ludwigs2, your edit warring to try to enforce your change on the policy is disruptive. Gain consensus for the change first; do not attempt to make substantial changes to long standing policy without such consensus. Puppy has spoken. KillerChihuahua^?!?Advice 22:15, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV Mondragon Corporation

[[4]]

A lot of the prose in this article comes across as glowingly approving, with a lot of canned platitudes and essentially no acknowledgement of the potential negatives of the approach.I think this article is propaganda. just a copy and paste from the group web page,With out NPOV all or most of the links go back to a self published Websites and is against Wiki NPOV --Kimmy (talk) 13:42, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

First off, this should be posted on the article's talk page or (if you run into a wall there) at WP:NPOVN, not here. Second, when if do post it at WP:NPOVN, please read the instructions at the top; you need to provide specifics on why it is not neutral (i.e. specifically how does it violate WP:NPOV), rather than just saying "It's propaganda". Also keep in mind WP:BOLD. If you've got a problem with an article, just go ahead and fix it. You don't have to complain and get permission first. - Jrtayloriv (talk) 14:24, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I should have put this in a Question form - - - Self Published Websites Can they be used to build an Article ??

Like I stated above, most Citations come from their own Website and or Blogs - It is my understanding Blogs are not NPOV or RS ???I thought this page was to ask Questions about NPOV... Thank YOU ! ?--Kimmy (talk) 15:05, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:SPS and WP:PRIMARY. -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 15:34, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 186: / Line 186: @@
 <small>Why are we whispering? (just kidding)</small> I assume the third option to which you refer is the pre-April one, right? If so, could that be a compromise upon which we could agree? --[[User:Tryptofish|Tryptofish]] ([[User talk:Tryptofish|talk]]) 22:01, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
+==='equal validity' warning===
+No consensus for change has yet been reached. Ludwigs2, your edit warring to try to enforce your change on the policy is disruptive. Gain consensus for the change ''first''; do not attempt to make substantial changes to long standing policy without such consensus. Puppy has spoken. [[User:KillerChihuahua|KillerChihuahua]]<small><sup>[[User talk:KillerChihuahua|?!?]]</sup>[[User:Heimstern/Ignoring incivility|Advice]]</small> 22:15, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 == NPOV Mondragon Corporation ==