Talk:Cool (Gwen Stefani song)

This article was nominated for deletion on November 28 2005. The result of the discussion was speedy keep. An archived record of this discussion can be found here.

Former discussions Archive 1: July — November 2005 Archive 2: November 2005 Archive 3: November 2005 —

Unexplained partial revert by EE

Please EE, if you're going to revert other people's edits, please say so in the edit summary (per WP:RV) rather than writing things like "tidied".

1. Changing [[Gold single|Gold]] to [[Music recording sales certification|Gold]] is unwise. As I said on your talk page, it's not necessary for redirect links to be changed so that they point directly to wherever they're supposed to go; see Wikipedia:Redirect#Don.27t_fix_links_to_redirects_that_aren.27t_broken. This is especially important if, for example, sometime in the future gold single becomes its own article.

   This is not wise. Gold single was merged for a reason, therefore, I will revert this. —Eternal Equinox | talk 22:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

   ...except that if music recording sales certification is expanded and material is spun off into subarticles, then the "avoiding redirect" link won't be as useful because the information on gold singles might be on a completely different page. Also, it's not as if gold single leads to somewhere other than music recording sales certification at the moment (not all redirects are a bad thing). If somebody does edit it to lead somewhere else, they will correct all the links (including the one on this article). Extraordinary Machine 12:18, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

   How about an agreement? Seeing that I'm going to be monitoring this article for a long time to come, why don't I change it to the correct link for now? In the future, if "gold single" is recreated as an independent article, I will then direct it to point at the appropriate article. After all, because of the merge, "gold single" may not receive its own article again in the forseeable future. —Eternal Equinox | talk 21:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

   What is wrong with linking to gold single, especially as it makes more logical sense to do so? Extraordinary Machine 22:28, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

   But that's the thing — since it is currently not gold single, personally I don't see any logic. —Eternal Equinox | talk 22:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

   The logic is that gold single links to music recording sales certification, and (as the guidelines states above) redirects do not have to be bypassed if they point to the correct page and if they don't contain typos or grammatical errors. Extraordinary Machine 18:17, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

2. Again, wikilinks like critic aren't needed; see WP:CONTEXT.

   Yes, I had over wikilinked. —Eternal Equinox | talk 22:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

3. I remembered there was extensive discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music/Tables for charts where consensus arose that Billboard component charts aren't needed in most cases. The Hot 100 Airplay and Hot Digital Songs are component charts of the Hot 100, so I removed them. That's the same reason we don't need to know that the song reached the top ten on the Pop 100 Airplay; it's not a very notable chart. As for the Hot Dance Music/Club Play and Hot Dance Airplay, you're right that they are separate from each other, but whenever a song is referred to as a "number-one dance hit" it's in relation to the Hot Dance Music/Club Play, so that's the more notable one and it's unnecessary to have two.

   Okay, I can concur with the Hot Digital Songs format, but I'm unsure of the Hot 100 Airplay since it is certainly notable, and especially the Hot Dance Airplay since there is no affiliation between it and the club chart. Let's elaborate on this. —Eternal Equinox | talk 22:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

   I don't see how the Hot 100 Airplay is "certainly notable"; it's a component chart just like the rest, and previous consensus concluded that component charts shouldn't really be included except in special cases (e.g. if a song didn't chart on the Hot 100 but did on one or more of the components, which isn't the case here). I'll ask user:Ericorbit about the dance charts. Extraordinary Machine 12:18, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey kids :-) Here's my take on it... I don't think I'm going too far out on a limb by saying that a "#1 dance hit" generally refers to club play. The "hot dance airplay" chart is relatively new (I dont think too many people even know it exists) and it only is tabulated by about nine radio stations that specialize in rhythmic play (as opposed to hundreds of club DJs who compile the Club Play list). For a chart like "dance airplay" I would say that its inclusion in an article may be notable if, say, the track hit #1 or if it got no major play on any other format. If we're talking component charts, "Hot Dance Airplay" really is a component of Hot 100 Airplay, not Dance Club Play. Clear as mud now? -- eo 12:59, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Clear as mud :). My only remaining argument is the "Hot 100 Airplay", once again. I'm still not quite sure why this cannot be displayed on Wikipedia. One, the Canadian airplay chart is in the article, and nobody has made a great deal out of this, so why should we do this for the Hot 100 Airplay? While it may be a component chart of the official Hot 100, the U.S. does not have any other official airplay chart, so I think it would be fair enough to include this chart in the article. —Eternal Equinox | talk 21:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, eo. Well then the Canadian airplay chart should probably be removed as well, especially if it's unofficial. Lots of countries have airplay charts; if we included all of them then the charts tables would double in size. In fact, I think the Hot 100 Airplay should be the first of the airplay charts to go, since airplay statistics contribute to the main Hot 100 (as oppose to other countries where the official singles charts are based on sales only). Extraordinary Machine 22:28, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Except that the Canadian airplay chart certainly is official (here) and does not attribute to a Canadian Singles Chart position. What seems to be the issue with displaying the Hot 100 Airplay other than because a Hot 100 position is based on its points-system? I feel there is further reasoning, such as the length of an article. —Eternal Equinox | talk 22:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

1. I also reduced the wordiness. "Reached" may appear to sound less intelligent than "subsequently peaked within" and "did not enter" is shorted than "failed to peak within", but it's much clearer and retain's the meaning of what is being said without swamping it and becoming jarring. It's better to sound clear than "flowery".

   I see. —Eternal Equinox | talk 22:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

2. Closely related to this is repetition, particularly in the "Composition and inspiration" section. We read "Although their romantic relationship ended, Stefani's lyrics portray her attitude that it is "cool" that they still remain very good and close friends", "The lyrics of "Cool" describe a relationship that ended amicably" and "The lyrics suggest a progression through a turbulent time to a mutual understanding that takes their relationship to a level of respect", all of which are essentially saying the same thing in the same section. One of them had to go, otherwise it would again be jarring for the reader.

   Yes. —Eternal Equinox | talk 22:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

3. Overquoting. This is really only a problem with the quote from the PopMatters review, but it becomes apparent when one single quote is large enough that it has to be split into its own paragraph. I had to shorten it; again, it read jarringly and interrupted the flow of the text (I know one of the weaknesses of my writing is that I tend to quote excessively, and I know what a problem it can be). Extraordinary Machine 22:37, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

   I'm somewhat confused. —Eternal Equinox | talk 22:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

   I was referring the the PopMatters quote that had its own paragraph because it was so long (with the bit about the Fleetwood Mac/"Everywhere" comparison). You seemed to have shortened it again though, so never mind. Extraordinary Machine 12:18, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

   Yes, that one was far too long. —Eternal Equinox | talk 21:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I would like to point out that the Pop 100 Airplay's peak position should be mentioned in the article since there is no chart for it under the "Charts" section. —Eternal Equinox | talk 21:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I've explained above (#Excess detail) why I removed it originally, and the consensus established at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music/Tables for charts is that component charts are arbitrary in most cases (whether in the text or in the "Charts" section). Extraordinary Machine 22:28, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Please stop directing me to that wikiproject because I am no longer interested in its material; this was the opinion of a few editors and I had not been around at the time. Airplay are just as notable as singles chart, especially in nations such as Canada, Japan and South Korea, where they are looked at into further depth than the actual singles chart. I don't think there is anything wrong with displaying the actual peak position in the paragraph, if it, after all, cannot be in the article. —Eternal Equinox | talk 22:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Changed my mind. I removed the mention of the Pop 100 Airplay's peak position. —Eternal Equinox | talk 22:37, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, maybe the airplay charts for countries where the official sales and airplay charts are separate should be included, but since the U.S. Hot 100 is made up of the airplay and sales charts, I don't really see the point in including those component charts (except in special cases).They seem arbitrary. Extraordinary Machine 18:17, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I still think that the Hot 100 Airplay is notable because the U.S. does not have an official chart that is separate from Billboard. The sales charts, however, such as the Hot 100 Singles Sales is the equivalent, say, to the Canadian Singles Chart, but since the Hot 100 functions differently from the Canadian Singles Chart, I don't think this format is useful. Airplay, on the other hand, appears to establish some notability. —Eternal Equinox | talk 21:37, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I know I haven't really edited this article, but I'm gonna bud in here and give my opinion about the Hot 100 Airplay. I don't agree with it being removed from singles articles. I think it is the most imporant chart after the Billboard Hot 100. The argument that it is a compenent of the Hot 100 does not make sense to me. At the end of the day, ALL the singles charts are a component of the Hot 100 including the genre charts. I can understand if R&B Airplay or Pop Airplay are removed, but the Hot 100 Airplay should remain. Just because it is a component of the Hot 100 does not mean you can infer the Airplay position from the Hot 100 position. Many times airplay positions vary greatly from the Hot 100 positions. I also feel the same way about the Hot Digital Songs chart. These charts do not take up too much article space, and are the most imporant charts in the U.S. following the Hot 100, so I don't see any reason in removing them. As I stated, positions on all three charts may vary and in most cases usually do vary greatly (especially with the new calculation of the hot 100). Readers should be able to see how a song performed on radio AND in sales INDIVIDUALLY as they are both very important pieces of information; it is impossible to see this from just a Hot 100 position which can be any possible mixture of airplay/sales. How a song performed at radio and in sales nationally is significant, especially when songs reach number-one on these charts, but do not reach number-one on the Hot 100 chart. --Musicpvm 22:43, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I strongly agree with Musicpvm in regards to the importance of the Hot 100 Airplay. However, while the Hot Digital Songs chart is also essential when Billboard's statisticians calculate the Hot 100 position, I do not understand what makes its presence relevant. After all, it just furthers the sales components; the Hot 100 Singles Sales supplies a major basis in determining a Hot 100 ranking as well, although this chart is not as renowned as it had been at one point. I have an idea: we should pretend that a song such as Madonna's "Hung Up" reached number one on the Hot 100 Singles Sales and the Hot Digital Songs. The song peaked at the top position on both sales component charts, but does this warrant separate chart sections in its article? This would be critical for the singles that appear on both of the sales charts. However, while there is no indication within the article that "Cool" entered the Hot 100 Singles Sales, it most certainly did (this was to be expected since it topped the Canadian chart). Since both components are measured and heavily influence a Hot 100 position, should both be included in the article? It is likely that this situation would not be as difficult to overcome if the single only charted on one of the sales components. Any suggestions and/or thoughts on the matter? —Eternal Equinox | talk 23:24, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I see what you mean. These days though, I think it is pretty rare for a song to chart on both the Hot Digital Songs and Hot 100 Singles Sales (there are definite exceptions as you mentioned Madonna's "Hung Up"). For the most part, physical commercial singles are obsolete in the U.S., and the sales component for the majority of singles is solely based on the Hot Digital Songs. This was the reason the Digital Songs chart became a component of the Hot 100 chart in 2005, as the Hot 100 Airplay became almost identical to the Hot 100 (which at that time was only based on the Hot 100 Airplay and Hot 100 Singles Sales - which barely affected the chart due to falling commercial single sales and lack of physical single releases). I think the Hot 100 Singles Sales should definitely be mentioned for songs before the 2000s when commercial singles were popular and had a large effect on the Hot 100. With current singles, it should probably only be mentioned when a song is very successful on the chart ("Hung Up", the American Idol singles). I don't think most of the number-one singles this year even charted on the Hot 100 Singles Sales. I'm not even sure if "Cool" did as I see no mention of a physical single release in the U.S.; it seems it was only released digitally in the U.S. which is the usual case these days. --Musicpvm 23:44, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

"Cool" did chart on the Hot 100 Singles Sales, but at number seventy-something (I do not remember the precise position). You have an interesting theory, especially when taking into the consideration of the sales component charts and songs that place a very high ranking ("Hung Up" and such). Perhaps Extraordinary Machine should offer some input and his opinion before we arrive at a solution for the charts? In total, I do not believe that there should be more than twenty charts displayed in the section of the article. Thoughts? —Eternal Equinox | talk 23:53, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, in the case of "Cool" and other songs that chart so low, I think it's unnecessary to mention the Hot 100 Singles Sales. Such a low position on that particular chart is pretty meaningless. It is probably due to a limited vinyl release of the single and has no or very little effect on the actual Hot 100 position. Overall, i think the Hot 100 Singles Sales is a dying chart that has already been pretty much replaced by Hot Digital Songs. Sales on the Singles Sales chart are only notable in special circumstances such as American Idol singles. But yes, we should wait and see what EM says. I think 20-ish is a reasonable max. Even if the Airplay and Sales charts are included, for most singles this would mean 5 to 8 Billboard charts. In extreme cases, where songs have mass multi-genre appeal, such as We Belong Together, it may mean 10 Billboard charts. For the most part, this still leaves plenty of open spaces for international charts. --Musicpvm 00:18, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely. Let us wait for EM. —Eternal Equinox | talk 00:38, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

If there is a discrepancy between sales and airplay, it should be covered in the text and not in a chart; remember that the majority of people probably don't even know anything about the Billboard chart hierarchy. As I said above, there was extensive discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music/Tables for charts where consensus arose that Billboard component charts aren't needed in most cases. EE is right that "this was the opinion of a few editors", but so is pretty much every policy and guideline on Wikipedia; consensus can't just be dismissed. I must also stress the need to keep any irrelevancies and unneeded info out of articles (particularly pop music ones), or else what you end up getting is articles like Stupid Girls and this version of Hung Up: indiscriminate collections of info in which you can't see the forest for the trees. If somebody inserts component charts, then somebody else might think it's okay for ones in another country to be included, and that's when you start getting these unnecessarily huge chart sections that don't actually tell the reader that much. As another user once said, too much data is a great way of hiding information. Why use three or even two charts when one will do? Extraordinary Machine 19:07, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Music

I've just conducted a short musical session with a few of my friends, and after some investigation, we've come to realize that "Cool" is not actually composed in F major. From what I believe, it is actually composed in D major with F and C serving as the sharps. This error was likely miscalculated in that F sharp is the most-projected note in the song. Can anybody else verify this? —Eternal Equinox | talk 22:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to change F major to D major in the article for now. Since some of my friends have very good connections in Tokyo, I'm going to ask different musical experts and once I receive the proper information, the scale should be determined (or at least I would hope that it is). —Eternal Equinox | talk 00:34, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Does anybody know if there is a piano present in the music? —Eternal Equinox | talk 17:30, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I have added a musical section to the article. Suggestions or thoughts, anybody? —Eternal Equinox | talk 22:52, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest edits to two elements in the music section, but am hesitant to touch this specially highlighted article! (1) You've already established the key of the song in the music section, so I'm not sure what is meant by its "D-Major harmony." It isn't consistent to the use of the term "harmony" in my experience; it reads as if a layman is speaking about the key. (2) The Cello or the Violin being "appropriate for this style of music" because they are tuned in D is a bit of a misnomer - they aren't appropriate for New Wave, which is the real "style" of this song, and they obviously could play in any key, much as a guitar can. I would delete that sentence. I'm interested to hear from EE or others if they agree with these alterations to an already wonderful article! --Krisispm 03:03, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

If "Cool" was not new wave-produced, would the D major tuning differ from, let's say, classical music? 64.231.119.227 20:28, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

64.231.119.227 / Eternal Equinox

I've restored my edits that were surreptitiously removed by 64.231.119.227 (talk · contribs), which is in the IP range used by Eternal Equinox:

1. You again changed "Hot Dance Music/Club Play" to "Hot Dance Club Play". It's factually inaccurate to do that, because the chart didn't have that title back then. Just like we don't change every "Snoop Doggy Dogg" reference to "Snoop Dogg" or "Missy "Misdemeanor" Elliott" to "Missy Elliot".
2. "Elsewhere" and "global" shouldn't be capitalised, because they aren't proper nouns.
3. I removed the chart trajectory image again. At the discussions at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music/Tables for charts (which you already know about) after this article was promoted to featured states, consensus arose that they weren't needed.
4. user:Ericorbit said very few radio stations contribute to the Hot Dance Airplay chart, and that it is notable enough for inclusion if a song hit number one ("Cool" didn't) or if it got no major play on any other format ("Cool" topped the Hot Dance Music/Club Play chart). That's why I removed it.

EE, your behaviour on this article and your tendency to edit war is one of the reasons why an RFAr on you was opened (Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Eternal Equinox), so I strongly suggest you reconsider what you are doing. Extraordinary Machine 21:27, 15 July 2006 (UTC)