Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hallel Yaffa Ariel: Difference between revisions

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Hallel Yaffa Ariel

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Yes indeed a tragedy but doesn't worth an article. Per WP:NOTNEWS and WP:EVENT. If we had an article for every man who died in the violecne," Israeli Palestinian tragedy we would have to submit some 20 articles every year. Bolter21 (talk to me) 17:29, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Keep -This is internationally covered and condemned by Prime Minister of israel and US State department as terrorist attack. This is not covered by WP:NOTNEWS and WP:EVENT which is for things like streetcorner muggings and stabbings with no political motive that are not part of a continuing conflict and warfare and are not commented on by heads of state. Such arguments are continually used to try to delete every article on incidents of violence which is a terrorist attack or resembles one. If there are 1000 fatal terrorist attacks a day across all nations, there is no limit on the number of articles on such topics Bachcell (talk) 17:39, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

— Note to closing admin: Bachcell (talk • contribs) is the creator of the page that is the subject of this AfD.

- Comment The words of Prime Ministers and US state department does not make one event as significant. Netanyahu's words should not be taken seriously in Wikipedia. We don't have an article for every attack that occured in the last seven months, we actually have only 8 and three of them needs to be deleted. I"ll tell you a secret, there may not be a 1000 terrorist attacks everyday, but there are dozens, and some, have hundreds of casualties, such as mass executions of people or members of minorities in Iraq, some of which are in the context of an actual Genocide that is happening right now and yet, you don't hear about them. So we stick up to the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, this incident among others is not significant and has no major impact on the Israeli Palestinian conflict but just an incident that is very sad due to the fact a 13 year old girl was stabbed to death in her be which is something that makes it good for condamnations and news reports, but not for Wikipedia, as all of the articles about the attacks in the recent round of violecne," between Israel and the Palestinians are part of a series of articles regarding this wave of violence starting in September. There are murders much more horrible than this one, even not in the context of terrorism that doesn't recieve an article.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 18:30, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  - Bolter, your letting your bias show a bit with your comment. As to the matter at hand, while it is true we don't have an article for every terror attack, this attack was notably gruesome. It wasn't a random shooting or stabbing, it was an attack while the victim slept. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 18:39, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    - What bias and where exactly is the significance of this attack except for it being grusome? A few months ago we had a man being butchered with a butcher knife, in October we had a man ranning over four people, smashing them between his vehicle and a bus stop and then exiting the van and starting to chop an old man with his butcher's knife. Two weeks ago an man in his car was sprayed with bullets, his wife was critically injured and he left behind 10 children and possibly hundres of people who loved him as he was a popular figure and also friend of high officials in the Mossad and the Israeli Parliament and yet we he have no article for all three of those. Those three are all horrible "tragedies" but they are not more than that. Their impact is between very little to no impact at all. They didn't cause a significant chain of events, they didn't cause a national debate, they were already forgotten and we are two weeks after the death of Halel and still nothing really happened due to it, except for a controversial settlement expansion plan by the Israeli government, but apart from that, really nothing happend.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 18:52, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I object to the animus and POV exhibited by Nom. I trust that notability will be judged fairly according to WP:CRIME and WP:GNG, not according to what Nom appears to assert are special rules that unspecified parties apply to the Jewish State. I strongly doubt the judgment of an editor so enraged by an article that he has lost his customary ability to spell (or type): ("grusome," "ranning over", "hundres", "condamnations", "violecne," "occured", and even the victim's name.) I strongly urge editors operating under the influence of a hatred or animus so strong that they lose the ability to type, to refrain from editing until they can.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:09, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That is quite enough, WP:NPA is fairly clear, this is a topic covered by discretionary sanctions and if you make one more personal comment to any other editor I will seek sanctions against you. Read and internalize the opening of WP:NPA, most importantly Comment on content, not on the contributor.nableezy - 19:41, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

'he has lost his customary ability to spell (or type).' Keep your bad manners out of it. A 17 year old effortlessly bilingual in Hebrew and French, with an advanced knowledge of a third language and sufficient aware of the foibles of his occasional lapses in spelling to mock himself with comic irony by documenting the errors on his page, should be admired for his precocity rather than waspishly taken to task by the monolingual. He's a credit to Wikipedia.Nishidani (talk) 19:45, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Editors who wish to see the intemperate impression given here by Nom should read an earlier version of this page; which has been cleaned up. Nom's orthography is generally excellent.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:06, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Gregory, the last time I checked I was an Israeli Zionist of the center camp of Israeli politics (and if I had a babel userbox, I would label my English as level 3 out of 5). I just don't want to see an article for things I think are not significant enough for an article and because I see no one is generally doing anything I do it myself. There are three incidents from the current wave of violence that in my opinion should not have an article and no one much offered to delete them but when I see another incident I think shouldn't be here I don't sit and let it exist like the others. I think that the existence of such articles is quite misleading, as it takes small fractions of a conflict and make them significant over things that don't get an article and as far as I know Israeli media and politics, all the reactions to this incidents are emotional as this is an horrible attack but it didn't change anything on the ground or as Tricky said "have [a] wider implications for the conflict as a whole". The amount of people dying not in the context of terrorism is horrible: yesterday a baby died because his parents forgot him in a vehicle and a vehicle can reach up to 50 degrees Celsius in an Israeli summer. Today three people died in car accidents, but they don't get an article. A girl murdered in her bed is awful, but in making a Wikipedia article it is no different than "regular" deaths because it really has no significance in the conflict. You need to understand that events like that are not rare, and not in Israel. A few months ago there was an allegation that two Arabs raped a young Jewish woman with mental issues from a racial motive, but this didn't got an article, because this is just another. If the entire family was killed in the attack this would definitely have an article, as that is a rare thing in our conflict. In Iraq there are attacks with 50 people being killed that get no articles, because they are generally "just another", and generally in Iraq some 20 people die everyday on "good" days.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 21:49, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per my comment above. Basically, this wasn't your generic terror attack, it was a gruesome attack while the victim was sleeping and is clearly not covered by WP:NOTNEWS. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 18:45, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Terrorism-related deletion discussions. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 18:37, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 18:37, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Palestine-related deletion discussions. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 18:37, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note that article needs to me moved to something like Death of Hallel Yaffa Ariel, because it is about a murder/attack, and is not a bio.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:47, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Note on impact, although events are not required to have an ongoing impact to be notable, impact is, as Nom writes, an indication of notability. I will take a careful look at this stabbing attack, and begin the expansion of the article by looking at impact. Since my editing time is limited and this was a major incident that generated an enormous amount of coverage, I hope that other editors will join me in expanding and improving the article.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:22, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Delete or redirect to List of violent incidents in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, January–June 2016#30 June, where this is already covered. WP:NOTNEWS, WP:NOTMEMORIAL, WP:BIO1E. nableezy - 19:39, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Delete or redirect to List of violent incidents in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, January–June 2016. This incident alone, while obviously gruesome, doesn't match the notability of the other killings in this conflict that justify their own pages - things like the Murder of Eitam and Na'ama Henkin or Duma arson attack, for example, are individual tragedies but also have wider implications for the conflict as a whole. I can't see that this incident does. As has already been pointed out, if we made a page for every victim of this conflict, we would be creating dozens or hundreds each year. TrickyH (talk) 19:57, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 20:01, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, pr WP:NOTNEWS and WP:NOTMEMORIAL, Huldra (talk) 20:26, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. This incident is already covered on Wikipedia. See under List of violent incidents in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, January–June 2016, June 30. Articles of this kind should be written after at least 3 weeks or a month at least when further commentary demonstrates that they achieve long-term notability, as is normally done with parallel incidents where Palestinians are murdered (Beitunia killings, the event occurred on the 15 May and the article started 3 weeks later. The exception is of multiple murders or terror events that have immediate impact and, logically, a forseeable longterm impact involving trials etc. Otherwise, since people are killed every other day in the I/P area, we are creating an obituary tug-of-war between competing POV-victim image manufacturers.) Nishidani (talk) 20:32, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Israeli-Palestinian conflict (2015-present).GreyShark (dibra) 21:41, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, good sourcing, WP:NOTNEWS and WP:EVENT does not apply here as that covers crimes like muggings etc.. this is a political and above the normal standard crime. Also, we dont base deletion on article quality, the quality can be improved.BabbaQ (talk) 21:42, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Per WP:BIO1E, WP:EVENT and also WP:NOTNEWS. Darwinian Ape^talk 02:54, 14 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, as Huldra wrote, per WP:NOTNEWS and WP:NOTMEMORIAL. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 03:30, 14 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Google search (in quotes):

"Mohammed Abu Khdeir" → 118,000 = Wikipedia article

"Hallel Yaffa Ariel" → 163,000 = Discussion about deletion

This could sound like anarchy and challenge the foundation of the Arab-Israeli Conflict contingent, but some articles can exist outside of List of violent incidents in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, 2016.

No more Wikiwashing. Kamel Tebaast 04:50, 14 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Youd be better off picking a different article. The article on Abu Khdier, and its not a biography, exists because of its significance in a larger set of distinct events, events that if they were covered together would be too large of an article. So we have articles on 2014 kidnapping and murder of Israeli teenagers and the following Kidnapping and murder of Mohammed Abu Khdeir and the culminating 2014 Israel–Gaza conflict. Those other two articles exist because reliable sources talk about their so called enduring impact. That isnt the case here. This has not had, like any other number of violent acts in a long running conflict, any appreciable impact recorded by reliable sources. This is, and Im sorry if this is callous, somewhat routine, as the sheer length of List of violent incidents in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, January–June 2016 should readily demonstrate. nableezy - 07:07, 14 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The death of Abu Khadeir sparked a three month long unrest in Jerusalem, causing the death of some 80 people on both sides, starting what is called the Silent Intifada (which was recently renamed to a better name), and also one of the events leading to the worst battle in Gaza for the last century and also part of the events that can be related to the current phase of violance. The Abu Khadeir incident also caused a controversy about wether the homes of Jewish terrorists should be demolished like the homes of Arab terrorists. The death of Halel on the other hand caused pretty much nothing, just a horrible event.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 12:31, 14 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, your search data is wrong and I have no idea how did you come up with those numberes.

The search hallel yaffa ariel brought only 71,000 results. But when I search results since 31 June I only get 24 pages of links, which means 240 results. --Bolter21 (talk to me) 18:37, 14 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Delete or redirect to the list of violent incidents: WP:NOTNEWS. This is not a WP:BLP and would fail WP:BLP1E anyway. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 06:17, 14 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Bolter21, it appears your Google search was without quotations. Kamel Tebaast 20:02, 14 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Good, then my search is more percise. There's a difference between 163,000 results and 240.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 20:42, 14 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure what type of search you're doing. I just did another Google search on a different server:

"Mohammed Abu Khdeir" → 110,000

"Hallel Yaffa Ariel" → 154,000

Regardless, that is not the only indicator. However, to Khdeir's credit, many articles would have been written in Arabic that did not show up on these google searches. Kamel Tebaast 22:12, 14 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Listen, Ariel is one of the 20 most popular names in Israel, we have an MK named Ariel, we have an important settlement called Ariel, if you wrote "Hallel Yaffa Ariel" there's a good chance you"ve got thousands of "ariel". You are not searching for results since 31 June, you are searching for results as old as 15 years.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 09:40, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Not if you're searching with quotes. That restricts to what is in the quotes. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 13:47, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - per WP:GNG which trumps the IDONTLIKEIT,s of above.BabbaQ (talk) 17:09, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually, as a point of fact, each of the delete comments above that referenced NOTMEMORIAL or NOTNEWS in fact, as a policy based argument, trumps the ones that say, for example, notable or GNG, as those are guideline based arguments. Policy > Guideline, and also, FYI, WP:LIKE is the same thing as WP:IDONTLIKE. nableezy - 17:32, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- The article meets every single one of the points per WP:GNG except one, which is that a new article must not contradict WP:NOT. Per WP:NOT, Wikipedia is not a WP:NOTMEMORIAL site. It also teaches us that people who are known for one event (i.e. WP:BLP1E) should generally not have an article. Also we have WP:GEOSCOPE, which says that "Notable events usually have significant impact over a wide region, domain, or widespread societal group", but the murder of Hallel has not had any significant impact. Beyond that I didn't find other relevent policies and guidelines that can futher contribute to my point, so I'll move back to common sense. We have the articles List of terrorist incidents, June 2016 and we have the article List of violent incidents in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, January–June 2016 and this attack is listed there. Because the attack has no significant impact whatsoever, there is not much to write besides the incident it self, which is present in both lists. In addition, should the attack have any implication (except for it being relatively shocking, which is in the eyes of the beholder), the information will be in Israeli–Palestinian conflict (2015–present), the article that talks about the phase of violance in which this attack occurred. Since this attack has no significant impact, it can remain in the two lists where it is already present and lie there in peace.

The "motive" for my suggestion is not political. I am an Israeli citizen and I never really politically detested my country or the people. The reason is that as a member of this project, I must respect the nature of this project. So please, to anyone, stop saying that the removal of this article stems from WP:IDONTLIKEIT or WP:POV and, rather, actually address the arguments given.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 18:56, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

WP:BLUDGEON.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:27, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm glad you raised that essay. It reads:'Bludgeoning the process is where someone attempts to force their point of view by the sheer volume of comments, such as contradicting every viewpoint that is different from their own,' which is exactly what you do at the AfD pages when the many articles you create on terrorism are vetted there. Self-goal, in short.Nishidani (talk) 21:37, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No Gregory, simply, NO. There are some 16 individual comments here to the topic. I responded to the creator of the article to further explain my point, then to Sir Joseph who blamed me for a putative POV, then to you who blamed me for whatever. Then I replied to someone who said I was 'wikiwashing', who also brought wrong information to support his claim, and to this guy. So in general, I responded to 3 people who said I was not being policy-compliant and to another one who made a statement about WP:GNG, four people, 16 comments. Stop being so facile in charging that other editors are disruptive.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 21:49, 15 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Move content to list of Palestinian terror attacks, Israeli-Palestinian conflict 2015-present, or Silent Intifada... and redirect.--Monochrome_Monitor 02:57, 16 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, but move to Murder of Hallel Yaffa Ariel. Everybody knows, and its been proven the substantial media coverage, that the murder of one individual can have international serious ramifications. --brew crewer (yada, yada) 15:41, 17 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and move to Murder of Hallel Yaffa Ariel. As it was mentioned below there thousands of sources available, when searching for this event. Also the nature of the crime itself is dfferent from others based on how it was executed. Arthistorian1977 (talk) 19:14, 17 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Why is it different? A boy went into a house, and stabbed a teen girl to death, just as in this random sample from hundreds of similar unwikified incidents, e.g.this, this,this,this,this. These are WP:NOTNEWS , and the same applies. Oh, yes, there is a difference. The murderer was an Arab.Nishidani (talk) 20:08, 17 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It is different because it's an event that created a lot of waves around it, leading to other events and consequences. When a boy gets into a house and kills a teenage girl, this is tragic, but not notable. When a boy gets into a house, kills a girl, leading to politicians, ministers to create or change plans; for international community to talk about the event, it's a notable event. And it has nothing to do with him being an arab. Mohammed Abu Khdeir's murderers were Israelis. You don't argue the article is their basing on that fact. Arthistorian1977 (talk) 13:03, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The reason is WP:RS as per WP:GNG. Beware WP:BLUDGEON.E.M.Gregory (talk) 02:00, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Those are reliable sources, genius. As the fourth most prolific contributor to this page, you might want to have a look at that essay yourself. And since you like to cite it so often, in its spirit, please try to not get the last word in. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 02:47, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Keep and move to Murder of Hallel Yaffa Ariel - this event made many headlines and is still being mentioned on the news. Some have compared it to the Fogel family massacre. Claiming it is not notable while it made it to headlines around the world, and later more stories published [[1]], make it clear papers editors think it is notable.Kigelim (talk) 05:13, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 65: / Line 65: @@
 :::*The reason is [[WP:RS]] as per [[WP:GNG]].  Beware [[WP:BLUDGEON]].[[User:E.M.Gregory|E.M.Gregory]] ([[User talk:E.M.Gregory|talk]]) 02:00, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
 ::::*Those ''are'' reliable sources, genius. As the fourth most prolific contributor to this page, you might want to have a look at that essay yourself. And since you like to cite it so often, in its spirit, please try to not get the last word in. —&nbsp;[[User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]]&nbsp;<sup>[[User talk:Malik Shabazz|Talk]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|Stalk]]</sub> 02:47, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
+*'''Keep''' and '''move''' to [[Murder of Hallel Yaffa Ariel]] - this event made many headlines and is still being mentioned on the news. Some have compared it to the [[Fogel family massacre]]. Claiming it is not notable while it made it to headlines around the world, and later more stories published [[http://www.sfchronicle.com/news/world/article/Relatives-of-slain-Jewish-teenager-visit-8354184.php]], make it clear papers editors think it is notable.[[User:Kigelim|Kigelim]] ([[User talk:Kigelim|talk]]) 05:13, 18 July 2016 (UTC)