User talk:Philip J. Rayment

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/Discussion with Filll 1 (Archive)

/Discussion with Filll 2 (Archive)

/Discussion with Filll 3 (ongoing)

Welcome

Welcome to Wikipedia, and thanks for your contribution on Talk:List of closed Melbourne railway stations! It's good to have people here who are knowledgeable about Melbourne.

Was the station in Kororoit Creek Road itself, or just nearby? Also, have you had a look at some of the other blanks in the main list? Any assistance you could give would be much appreciated.

Ambivalenthysteria 06:40, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Status

Just to let you know that I am watching. :) With admiration, I must say. But I am keeping my signature on the edits and comments of Creationism and its Talk page for now to a minimum--just to let things cool off a bit. I saw you changed the label again to "One point of view." Bravo! I cannot believe the steadfastness of some certain individual in insisting that the Encyclopedia Britannica is creationist! I am curious what happens next! :) Here is some data that may prove useful as you make your next decisions. There were some late night exchanges on the bottoms of the Rednblu, FeloniousMonk, and Pjacobi Talk pages that you might like to know about. I suggest you don't bother spending too much time with those orations if they don't give you ideas in how to proceed. I'll be watching. And of course, anything we say on these talk pages can and will be used against us! :)) As if we had anything to hide. ---Rednblu 00:29, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

POV Edits to Talk:Creationism

I've reverted your POV comments to the previous version that RednBlu and myself had settled on. For the sake of other readers and a fair description of the issue, please keep POV comments out of the discussion outline for Talk:Creationism, you can make your points in the discussion itself at Talk:Creationism/What_is_wrong_with_the_lead_section--FeloniousMonk 03:40, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Trams

NB: My responses to Adam, shown here highlighted, were originally posted on his talk page([1]), but they have been deleted from there, and for completeness I have copied them into here

Adam, I've altered the captions in Trams in Melbourne (why did you alter the caption of the one that was already there?), but you might like to add in where they were taken. I think No. 3 (and possibly No. 2 also) is in Victoria Parade, but I'm not certain enough to say so.

Also, there is a problem with the photographs. Clicking on either of the first two shows an enlarged version of a different photograph. The third one works okay. I have no idea what the problem is here, so am unable to fix it.

On your opinions regarding Wikipedia, whilst I agree with you on anonymous people not making edits, I don't agree on most of the rest. But the thing that I disagree with most strongly is your bigoted (sorry for the strong word, but I feel that it's the appropriate word) view that wikipedia should adopt one particular worldview (humanism) to the exlusion of all others (e.g. Christian)!
Philip J. Rayment 00:51, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Philip, all three photos were taken in Victoria Pde, the top two at the stop outside the Eye and Ear Hospital and the third a bit further west outside St Vincent's. The photos all click through to the correct versions for me.

On Wikipedia's world-view, I did not mean to use "humanist" to suggest "anti-Christian." To most people it means simply "reflecting broadly humane values." While I would certainly oppose articles which overtly reflected a Christian ideology, I would also oppose those which reflected an anti-Christian ideology. But I do maintain that Wikipedia must take a rationalist and secular view. Thus I would oppose an article saying "God made the world in seven days," because that is a not a proposition which can be scientifically sustained. Adam 02:46, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

In response to your comments on my talk page:

• The problem with the tram pictures seems to be something to do with updating. For the first picture, I was still seeing the old picture that yours replaced. When I clicked through, I got your new picture. For the second picture, however, I saw your new picture and clicking through gave me the old one! It now seems to be working okay for me, but now I'll have to go back and change the captions! As they are (nearly) all at the same place, I won't include the location in the captions.
• I notice that Wikipedia doesn't handle pictures properly in its history. Showing the Tram page as it was before you uploaded the new pictures still gives the new pictures, but with the old captions. Thus your picture of an A class tram shows up in the section about W-class trams, saying that it is a W class! (See [2])
• Regarding "humanist", perhaps it was your use of the word in the same phrase as "secular" and "rationalist" that misled me. Your statement seemed to be very much one of excluding a Christian (for example) worldview. I wouldn't expect Wikipedia to state (as a matter of fact) that the world was created in seven days. But then neither would I expect it to state (as a matter of fact) that the universe was billions of years old and commenced from the "Big Bang", as they are also ideas deriving from particular worldviews (in this case, secular/secular humanist/agnostic/atheistic/etc. worldviews).
• By the way, just out of curiosity, why did you create my user page?

Philip J. Rayment 03:59, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I created a User page because I dislike red links, as do most other Wikipedians. Red links cry out for articles!

I think we do have a fundamental difference in opinions about the nature of knowledge, which is a problem, since we are both supposed to working for the name knowledge-based project. The statement "God made the world in seven days" is a statement of faith. Chistians who believe it do so based on scripture, which they consider to be a revelation of the word of God. The statement "The universe is billions of years old and was created at the Big Bang" is a statement of science, based on empirical observation interpreted through reason. It might prove to be a false statement, but if it is false that is because both our observation and our reasoning are imperfect, and the path to better knowledge lies through more observation and better reasoning. An encyclopaedia has to stand for one form of knowledge or the other, it cannot really encompass both, since they are in contradiction. My view is that Wikipedia should stand for knowledge based on science and not on revelation. Adam 08:36, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

<<The statement "The universe is billions of years old and was created at the Big Bang" is a statement of science, based on empirical observation interpreted through reason>>
Rather, the statement is an interpretation of empirical evidence made in the context of a particular worldview, a worldview that doesn't allow for a young, created universe. Creationists take the same evidence and interpret it differently, because they have a different worldview. Empirical science requires observation and repeatability, neither of which are possible for past events. So all such explanations about the past are of necessity interpretations of the evidence, and applying the label 'scientific' to them is therefore dubious at best. Philip J. Rayment 15:41, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

A simple request

Please stop your repeated characterizations of me as an "evolutionist", etc.. I have corrected you once on this already but I see you're still at it. One more time, you're misrepresenting me and my position- I'm a Rationalist and I'm asking that you stop.--FeloniousMonk 01:48, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I responded to your previous "correction" by pointing out that I was using the word to mean someone who believes in evolution. I believe that to be a correct use of the word, and I believe that you do believe in evolution. Could you therefore point out exactly how it is wrong? People can be labelled in many ways. I could be (correctly) labelled an Australian, a Christian, a protestant, an evangelical, a creationist, etc. Which one of those I would use depends on the circumstances. If the context is creation and evolution, then referring to you as an evolutionist seems entirely appropriate. When it comes to names, I generally do like to use the name that the person themself prefers (thus I like to be called Philip rather than Phil), but when it comes to descriptive terms, I would prefer to use the most appropriate term for the particular context. Please explain to me where my thinking is wrong on this. Philip J. Rayment 02:35, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Because it is invalid to say someone believes in a scientific theory, since by the definition of Popper, science is based on the elimination of belief. In the academic sphere, evolutionist is given for something who studies and works on evolution as a career, not to someone who agrees currently with its principles, which is generally taken as true by default.--Fangz 00:52, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

<<Because it is invalid to say someone believes in a scientific theory, since by the definition of Popper, science is based on the elimination of belief.>>
That surely depends on your use of the word "believe". According to Merriam-Webster Online, one of the meanings is "to accept as true, genuine, or real". With that definition, it is quite proper to say that someone believes in evolution.

<<In the academic sphere, evolutionist is given for something who studies and works on evolution as a career, not to someone who agrees currently with its principles, ...>>
Merriam-Webster Online does not give a definition for evolutionist, but for -ist, it offers the following among others:

• one that specializes in a (specified) art or science or skill.
• one that adheres to or advocates a (specified) doctrine or system or code of behavior

The first definition is consistent with what you are saying, but the second is consistent with my use of the word. So my use would appear to be legimate.
The Oxford dictionary, however, does give a definition, and one definition only, that being:

• a person who believes in the theories of evolution and natural selection.

This indicates that my use is accurate and yours is not!
But even if I accept your use, what word should I use instead to indicate someone that believes evolution to be true?
Philip J. Rayment 02:25, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

But not everyone who agrees with evolution at present believes in it!

Doctrine:

• A principle or body of principles presented for acceptance or belief, as by a religious, political, scientific, or philosophic group; dogma.
• A rule or principle of law, especially when established by precedent.
• A statement of official government policy, especially in foreign affairs and military strategy.

And so, if you do not believe in evolution, you cannot be an -ist.

Then there is the issue of acceptance. What do you mean by accept something to be true? In the general sphere of creationist, belief is taken as acceptance - without question. As in, I believe X, Y and Z are self-evident etc etc. By Popper, we never accept a theory as true. We accept there is no reason at present to believe it is false, and we accept that it is useful as a theory. We never accept something to be true, because we can never prove that to be so.

<<But even if I accept your use, what word should I use instead to indicate someone that believes evolution to be true?>>

Evolutionist. But not every scientific supporter of evolution is an evolution-ist.--Fangz 00:57, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

<<But not everyone who agrees with evolution at present believes in it!>>
Huh? To substitute other words for "believes", you are saying that "not everyone who agrees with evolution accepts it as true, genuine, or real"! Could you explain that to me?

<<By Popper, we never accept a theory as true. We accept there is no reason at present to believe it is false, and we accept that it is useful as a theory. We never accept something to be true, because we can never prove that to be so.>>
Now you are splitting hairs and playing with words. I accept that in science nothing can ever be proved, but you are taking that concept too far. Are you saying that you don't accept that it's true that you exist, that the world exists, that science exists, that we are both typing in English, etc. etc.? Would you stand up in a group of evolutionary biologists and state for all to hear that you don't accept that evolution is true (without clarifying what you mean by that sentence)? Even if you would do that, do you really think that those biologists would understand you to mean what you have just written above?
Philip J. Rayment 01:58, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

according to genesis

heya -- rednblue + i have been working on an "alternative" to the creation according to genesis page , and we're gonna bring it up for a vote when we're done -- i'd REALLY appreciate your help in making it shine if you would -- i just got tired of edit-warring with mr. everything-in-the-bible-is-a-hateful-conspiracy-and-horrible-evil-lie Cheesedreams. User:Rednblu/tempMinorityOpinionPage -- thanks! Ungtss 03:26, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

great work! any other substantive ideas to put in? Ungtss 15:03, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Flood geology

i don't know if it's on your watchlist, but i've started fleshing it out -- appreciate all the help i can get:). (naughty, naughty edit conflict!:) Ungtss 03:47, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

thanks

heya! appreciate your clearing up the true YEC take on things so much of the time -- like i say, i don't go to church, so i'm kinda out of the loop with these things:). i'll try to use the preview button more often ... i find for some reason i always get errors when i use it -- either it won't upload or somebody preempts me ... but i'll try and do better when things are quiet:). Ungtss 15:21, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

flood myths

hey ... we've got censorship problems on the flood myth page ... would appreciate your help in resolving them whenever you get the chance:). Ungtss 00:22, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Another time it is better never to revert text because you don't understand it. Revert vandalism and graffiti and pov assertions made in bad faith. Post doubtful text in the Talk page to be worked on. We'll edit it so that you do understand it. Thanks. --Wetman 15:32, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

heya!

hey bro -- i've been working on Creation biology -- care to take a look and make all the edits you feel are appropriate before i link it up to the creationism template and subject it to the usual vandalism? Ungtss 17:22, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

another one

care to work your magic on Creation geology? Ungtss 19:29, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

mediation

Hi, can you try to reason with user:138.130.194.229/user:220.244.224.8/user:138.130.195.166? He isn't doing himself any favours at the moment and might be more receptive to reasoning from someone who shares his POV rather from an evil atheist scientist. Tell him he can either start to be reasonable, or we'll have to escalate it further and go to the arbcom and have him banned. Nibbling away and being polite rather than being overly aggressive would ultimately bring better results for you. (Cheesedreams didn't realise this from the opposite angle and she ended up in trouble). He could be a good contributor to your creation wiki, mind. Dunc|☺ 21:40, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for drawing this to my attention. However, having reviewed the claims on Wikipedia:Requests for comment/138.130.194.229, I cannot support the accusations against him, as I have now stated there. Philip J. Rayment 11:14, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Alleged inconsistencies in the Bible

I modified the text to mention Genesis 5:4 (removing the "this is utterly false" comment, though I agree with that comment).

Lilith is sometimes presented as the mother of the "other woman" who is available for Seth to marry. I think the article on Lilith goes into more detail there. Mpolo 13:59, Mar 15, 2005 (UTC)

rfc's all around ...

i've got schroeder up for rfc in response to his frivolous rfc of me. i note he continues to abuse you on young earth creationism, as i know he's been doing for months. if you're interested, feel free to contribute to the RfC. Wikipedia:Requests for comment/JoshuaSchroeder Personally, i've boycotted the creationism pages due to the seemingly endless systemic bias, so as soon as his charade of a RfC is deleted, you'll have to battle him all by yourself -- but i figured i'd let you know, it's been a great pleasure working with you:). Ungtss 16:29, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Could you look at Young Earth Creationism again?

Hey, could you look at Young Earth Creationism again? One editor has basically declared an edit war against eny editor who wants to have the full creation story in the Young Earth Creationism article. As you know, I'm no YEC, but I fully support the article having a balanced viewpoint, and I don't think YEC makes any sense unless we include the full creation story. Samboy 18:51, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

(butting in). i fear the only way this nonsense will ever end is if a number of people of your intellectual persuasion (a viewpoint which is absolutely invaluable here -- you wonderful souls who hold to the goal of fairly representing beliefs with which you disagree) stand up to him and force him to stop. One on one edit wars will never succeed with him (or his previous iterations, Bensaccount and Cheesedreams). It's gonna take a consensus effort among evolutionists and creationists alike to fight off this nonsense. otherwise, these pages will ALWAYS be a pov campaign by the latest zealot to get off the boat:(. Ungtss 19:04, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Formal invitation

Mr. Rayment, you've been invited to become a member of FACTS. If you'd like to learn more, have a look around the society: User:FACTS. Hope to see you there:). Ungtss 23:18, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Please help with vandalism

Hi there. There are articles such as modern geocentrism, created kinds and Creationist cosmologies where an anon has made perfectly good edits and one Joshua Schroeder keeps on knocking them off. 138.130.201.204 09:17, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Sadly, i'm afraid it's never going to end with him. what we need are specific policies, and the enforcement of those policies, or pov warriors like schroeder will simply continue to vandalize and suppress ideas that scare him. toward that end, i would greatly appreciate your assistance, however, at Wikiproject:FACTS, in attempting to work around his nonsense (and the nonsense of those like him) in the hope of eventually achieving npov on the main pages. Ungtss 13:45, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I see that David Cannon is a sysop now, and he has contributed to some YEC articles. I'll have a look at that FACTS project. 138.130.201.204 04:31, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hey Phillip, I like your profile. I think it is amazing to see a creationist come out of Austrailia or even a Christian for that matter. No offense to Austrailians, but it is pretty secular over down under there.

Have you ever heard of Doug Stanton? He is an evangelist from Austrailia, who comes to Minnesota to preach. Sorry, to ask you questions here, but I didn't see an e-mail address. you can reply if you like at richardgaryson@yahoo.com

Beneficial Mutation and Natural Selection

If creationists believe in this stuff, then what is the difference b/w them and evolution? Also, how do you explain dinosaurs. Also, how do you know your religion is right and other people's is wrong. Do you think you are smarter than Asian buddists? Are you racist? Mike

If creationists believe in this stuff, then what is the difference b/w them and evolution?

You don't know? How is it that you seem to think that you know enough about the issue to be surprised that I believe it, yet don't know the answer to this? Perhaps you don't really know much about it at all? Perhaps you are simply bigoted.

But as you asked, I'll save you the bother of searching for the answer yourself, and point you to Genetics: no friend of evolution which will answer your question about beneficial mutations and natural selection.

Also, how do you explain dinosaurs.

What is there to explain? You haven't stated what the problem with dinosaurs is that I need to explain.

Also, how do you know your religion is right and other people's is wrong. Do you think you are smarter than Asian buddists?

I don't think I'm smarter than Asian Buddhists. People can be very intelligent but wrong. How do you know that your beliefs are right and mine are wrong?

Are you racist?

No, why would you think that? The Bible teaches that we are all descended from one original couple, that we are all children of God. That leaves little room for racism. Darwin, on the other hand, believed that the Australian Aborigines were less evolved than the white race. So are you racist?

Philip J. Rayment 06:25, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Are you saying all non-fundamentalists are racists if they believe in evolution? Wow... way to simplify the issues Phil. --202.164.195.56 09:32, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Not at all. That was your simplistic conclusion. Philip J. Rayment 17:05, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it was yours Phil. see below:

Darwin, on the other hand, believed that the Australian Aborigines were less evolved than the white race. So are you racist?

--202.164.195.56 03:49, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

On the contrary, it was you that originally asked if I was racist, apparently solely on the strength of me being a creationist. I replied in like manner by asking if you were a racist. If you think that it is simplistic for me to ask if you are a racist on the basis of you being an evolutionist, then surely it is simplistic for you you have asked me a similar question in the first place. Additionally, because evolution and racism have strong links, such as Darwin's views on the matter, I actually had more basis for asking the question than you did. — Philip J. Rayment 04:30, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Nice... Bit weird how you manage to contradict yourself in the space of one paragraph on one point. You complain about my simplicity, yet reaffirm your own. Congratulations, I am sure it's only days until you convert the masses.

I find it a little ironic that someone who believes in the bible word for word would lecture someone else about racial division. Plus I am quite certain that your christian bretheran have committed numerous atrocities such as slavery and slaughter in the name of Christianity. I wouldn't consider it fair game to generalise that all current Christians have such warped beliefs, yet you have no problem arguing that all evolutionists believe in racial profiling. You appear to have a massive chip on your shoulder Phillipe, do you think god would be proud of you spending hours a day on the internet fighting wikipedia edit crusades? You will spend eternity in purgatory you stubborn, blinkered, zealot.

--202.164.195.56 13:57, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Bit weird how you manage to contradict yourself in the space of one paragraph on one point. You complain about my simplicity, yet reaffirm your own.

How did I contradict myself? How did I supposedly reaffirm my own simplicity?

I find it a little ironic that someone who believes in the bible word for word would lecture someone else about racial division.

Due, no doubt, to your own blinkered views on what the Bible teaches. The Bible does not support racism and you have offered no argument that it does. Yet you somehow presume to suggest that I'm racist because I believe the Bible.

Plus I am quite certain that your christian bretheran have committed numerous atrocities such as slavery and slaughter in the name of Christianity.

Then you would be wrong. Sure, some people probably have done such things, but anybody could do such things and claim to be Christian. The real question is whether they are actually acting according to Biblical teaching. Such people who go against Biblical teaching could not rightly be described as my "christian bretheran (sic)".

I wouldn't consider it fair game to generalise that all current Christians have such warped beliefs,...

Yet that seems to be your presumption, in asking if I'm a racist simply because I believe the Bible.

...yet you have no problem arguing that all evolutionists believe in racial profiling.

I did no such thing. What I did is say that there is a strong link between evolution and racism. I did not say that all evolutionists are consistent with that and are racist. Please read what I write and don't put words into my mouth.

You appear to have a massive chip on your shoulder Phillipe, do you think god would be proud of you spending hours a day on the internet fighting wikipedia edit crusades?

You started this with an attack on me because of my beliefs. That suggests that it is you, not me, with a chip on the shoulder. I do not spend "hours a day on the internet fighting wikipedia edit crusades", so that question is invalid.

You will spend eternity in purgatory you stubborn, blinkered, zealot.

So now you resort to insults? The refuge of one with no argument.

Philip J. Rayment 15:46, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

How did I contradict myself? How did I supposedly reaffirm my own simplicity?

You concede that both our comments were simplistic:

If you think that it is simplistic for me to ask if you are a racist on the basis of you being an evolutionist, then surely it is simplistic for you you have asked me a similar question in the first place.

And yet you then go on to reinforce your previously simplistic assertion:

Additionally, because evolution and racism have strong links, such as Darwin's views on the matter, I actually had more basis for asking the question than you did.

Is that simplistic enough for you to understand?

there is a strong link between evolution and racism

You might be interested to know, that according to the theory of evolution, by definition, nothing in the world today can be more evolved than anything else. All living things you see today have evolved over the same period of time right back to single cell organisms.

Your assertion that those who believe in evolution believe "that the Australian Aborigines were less evolved than the white race" is by definition impossible. Evolutionists believe that while organisms may have evolved along different paths, it would be impossible for one current species to be more evolved than another. To clarify, I am not suggesting Aborigines and Asians are different species, but rather that your use of evolution-theory to suggest that one could be "more" evolved than the other is utterly incorrect.

Darwin may have had racist beliefs, but it is ridiculous of you to suggest that the current bank of information regarding evolution comes in its entirety from Darwin. Darwin was a preacher of evolution, he may have discovered it but he certainly did not invent it.

And Phil, if insults are the refuge of those with no argument, how would you classify placing snarky little (sic) comments next to incorrectly spelled words? It's not like you are translating historical documents here mate.

--202.164.195.56 15:29, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

You concede that both our comments were simplistic

The question was simplistic, but I wasn't being simplistic in asking it; I was copying your style in order to highlight to you how silly your question was.

And yet you then go on to reinforce your previously simplistic assertion:

No, I provided evidence in support of the presumption behind the question.

You might be interested to know, that according to the theory of evolution, by definition, nothing in the world today can be more evolved than anything else. All living things you see today have evolved over the same period of time right back to single cell organisms.

Please supply a source for that, because I don't believe it. I agree that (according to the theory) everything has been evolving for the same period of time, but it does not follow from that that nothing is more evolved than anything else. Are you seriously suggesting that humans are no more evolved than blue-green algae, which is supposedly virtually identical to what it was 3.8 billion years ago?

Your assertion that those who believe in evolution believe "that the Australian Aborigines were less evolved than the white race" is by definition impossible.

You're still not reading very carefully. I didn't not assert that "those who believe in evolution" believe that. I asserted that Darwin believed that. It therefore follows that followers of Darwin might believe that, but I did not assert that they do.

Evolutionists believe that while organisms may have evolved along different paths, it would be impossible for one current species to be more evolved than another.

See above re blue-green algae.

Darwin may have had racist beliefs, but it is ridiculous of you to suggest that the current bank of information regarding evolution comes in its entirety from Darwin.

Any more ridiculous than you asking if I'm a racist simply because I believe the Bible? But yes, suggesting that it all comes from Darwin would be incorrect, if I had done that. But neither was it only Darwin who linked evolution and racism.

And Phil, if insults are the refuge of those with no argument, how would you classify placing snarky little (sic) comments next to incorrectly spelled words? It's not like you are translating historical documents here mate.

The use of "(sic)" is not limited to translation of historical documents. It can be used whenever something is quoted to indicate that the mistake is in the original.

Darwin was a preacher of evolution, he may have discovered it but he certainly did not invent it.

That's begging the question, because you can't "discover" something that doesn't exist. But I agree that he didn't invent it; the idea was around before him. Here "merely" gave it some respectability and popularised it.

Philip J. Rayment 16:21, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Mernda/Meranda

my bad, just a typo, could of sworn i read it with as Meranda when i was looking it up else where. oh well i fixed all the links, and moved the Mernda station page so it should be all good now. another website u might not of come across for this stuff is [3], has the open/closing dates of lines/stations plus other important information on them. cheers mate --Dan027 15:14, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Coloured fonts in Melbourne railway articles

My mistake. I just ran across a station article with yellow, and maybe it's just my monitor, but it was hard to read. When I looked at the history, it looked like someone had just taken it upon themselves to add the color when they added the zone info, and the updates seemed pretty spread out chronologically (about one month), so I didn't think it was an assessed decision. Then I just started going down the line "fixing". I do think it's confusing with red & blue links, as well, but if the issue's been tackled already, I defer. ENeville 15:03, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Railway People Conspiring to Bring Down Wikipedia

Is it any coincidence that when Phillip P Raymond, LakeyBOY or Evan C get into an argument anywhere on wikipedia, that they all ineveitably run the opposing person down? I think there is something inherently wrong that you boys use your internet connections to win edit wars against people. Just because you all love trains and that, doesnt mean that you are pitted against the whole world. you sicken me.--202.164.195.56 09:35, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

LOL --Dan027 10:28, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Is it any coincidence that when Phillip P Raymond, ...

It's a pity that you can't even get my name correct.

... LakeyBOY or Evan C get into an argument anywhere on wikipedia, that they all ineveitably run the opposing person down?

Inevitably? You wouldn't be exaggerating a tad there, would you? And this coming from the person who threatened to have "you all" (presumably including me) banned from Wikipedia for not providing sources for an article I didn't write!

I think there is something inherently wrong that you boys use your internet connections to win edit wars against people.

Huh? What "internet connections"? What are you talking about?

Just because you all love trains and that, doesnt mean that you are pitted against the whole world. you sicken me.

And loving trains has nothing to do with this, just like being a creationist has nothing to do with it. But that's twice now you've raised irrelevancies as a basis for criticism.

Philip J. Rayment 17:37, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Alamein line

Thanks for correcting my non-professional use of the term 'branch line' in the article Alamein railway line, Melbourne ... I am out of Australia at the moment and away from any reference material, my addition was made from unreliable memory. As I recall in the early 70s the little shuttle service only operated on the weekends, perhaps only on Sunday (and perhaps it was always a single carriage, don't put any store in my 'two-carriage' recollection!). On the weekdays - as I recall - were the longer 'red rattlers' with the individual compartments, which had been phased out a little earlier on some other lines I think. I believe the only day the tickets could be bought from the guard (through a little window at the back of the carriage I think) was Sunday. The article doesn't quite read that way at the moment, but as (i) I don't have accces to reference material, & (ii) you seem more competent, I'd rather leave the fine-tuning up to you. Cheers. Stumps 20:27, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Shuttle services operated on weeknights and all day on Saturdays and Sundays. All except for Sundays were operated by 2-car (M-D) sets. For much of Saturdays, and perhaps early on weekday evenings, two sets operated the service. One of the two sets included a double-ended motor carriage, and on Sundays this double-ended motor operated by itself. I don't know when the guard sold tickets. It could have been on Sundays only, but some if not all of the M-D sets were walk-through, presumably to facilitate ticket sales on 2-car trains, which, as I have noted above, did not operate on Sundays. But perhaps this applied on the other shuttle services (Altona and Hurstbridge), not Alamein? Philip J. Rayment 14:18, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

far be it from a reply

hi phil. this is not a reply to our ongoing argument. I have some serious exams coming so my response to your quotes may be a while.

just wondering your opinion on:

1. why there are hot and cold areas on the earth?
2. why is there such inequity? Why has my life up to this point been so much easier than others?
3. what is the purpose of this, I really don't get it. I am a person who has been given every opportunity to pursue enrichment and intelligence, and yet I am a devout agnostic. For all my education, I cannot see why christianity is more "right" than islam or buddism or hinduism or anything.
4. To be honest, I dont think that you could tell me that you know your "god" (inverted commers meaning no offence)is any more enlightened than anyone elses.
5. I honestly dont think that any religious person could tell me the difference between their god and another's without referring to a religious text which relies on other people's accounts.

I would love a non-quote based reply phil. This is a completely non-provocative post Phil, or at least I mean it to be!

Mike--202.164.195.56 19:24, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Mike, because you want a "non-quote based reply" (by which I assume that you don't want me quoting your individual questions), I've numbered your points for easy reference.

And thanks for the non-provocative post. I'm happy to answer genuine questions. However, if you want to take either discussion much further, perhaps Wikipedia is not the place to do it. It might be better to contact me by e-mail (although you might have to be registered and logged in for that to work; I'm not sure).

1. I'm not sure what you are getting at with this one. Hot and cold areas are due to elevation and nearness to the equator. But perhaps you are asking why God would have created it that way? One answer could be for the sake of variety; it would be a less interesting planet if everywhere had the same temperature. But perhaps more relevant is, what benefit does a variety of temperatures provide? This is not an area I've studied much, but a range of temperatures powers winds and currents, which help provide a fresh climate and the like.
2. The Bible teaches us that this planet is not how God intended it to be. He created a perfect world (i.e. without defect), but due to man rejecting God (see The Fall of Man), the world has "run down" and is no longer the defect-free place it was meant to be. Therefore, we have death, suffering, and various inequalities, such as some people being rich and others poor, etc.
3. I'm not sure what you are getting at when you ask about the purpose of this; what is "this"? As for why Christianity is more "right", it would seem that you are of the (common) belief that religion is merely something in one's head; nothing more than a fact-free belief. However, Christianity (and some other religions) make truth claims, i.e. claims about things being factually true. Also, some of the truth claims that Christianity makes are mutually exclusive with truth claims made by other religions. For example, Christianity claims that God is a Triune being. Other religions claim that God is a single being. When you have two contradictory claims like this, you have two possibilities: either one claim is correct and the other incorrect, or both claims are incorrect. Clearly both claims cannot be true. If follows that if Christianity is correct about its claims, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. cannot be true. Of course that doesn't actually answer which one is true or whether any are true, but it does show that they cannot all be true.
   Another point of view (aka worldview, aka religion) is the humanistic/atheistic one (which agnosticism is similar to in practice, if not in principle). But again, atheism and Christianity make contradictory truth claims, so both cannot be true. One other point to consider is that the contradictory claims can, between them, be all-encompassing. For example, Christianity claims God exists and atheism claims that he doesn't exist. There are no other possibilities—one of the two must be true. So in many respects, the option I presented above of all worldviews being incorrect is not actually an option. One of the worldviews/religions must be correct (not necessarily in every point, of course, but in at least one of their key claims, such as about the existence of God.
   So, in theory at least, it is entirely logical and possible that Christianity is "more right" than other religions. All that remains is to test the claims of each and see which one is "more right".
4. God, by definition, is a unique being. So the question is not whether he is more enlightened than any other god (as there is no other god), but which (if any) claim of God is actually true.
5. You question presupposes something that is not necessarily true; that all religious text are merely people's accounts. Christians believe that the Bible is actually God's account; not man's. You also seem to presume that religious texts are all totally unable to be examined for accuracy and reliability. However, in the case of the Bible, a very large proportion of the text is history, and much of this history is verifiably true. Of course it is not possible to verify every bit of it, and ultimately it is believed by faith. But think of this: How did your learn things, say in school? You believed, by faith, things that you were taught by your teachers. Why did you believe them? There are a number of possible answers to that, but one would be because you were able to check out some of the things that they said, and they were correct on those things, so you considered them reliable and trustworthy. If you found that one of your teachers was telling you some things that weren't true, you'd probably be suspicious of everything he said. It is similar with the Bible; if you find it trustworthy on the things that you can check, it is reasonable to trust it on the things that you can't check.

Philip J. Rayment 04:15, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

thanks phil

Mike--202.164.195.56 30 October 2006

Jonathan Sarfati

It should probably be pointed out that the article now seen is not the article nominated: When the keeps started coming in, saying to fix the POV, I realised it probably wasn't going to go forward, and had a look at how it might be fixable. This involved moving some sections to the talk page, for revision and work, to balance out the article, as I couldn't see any other way to get it near-NPOV in the short term. As it stands now, I'd say it's... well, it's at or near NPOV, despite not being a very good article.

There is quite a lot of useful material in those sections, but the article was seriously unbalanced with them in. It may be you disagree with the choices of removal, and I'm not saying my actions were necessarily right, though I hope they were at least somewhat. Adam Cuerden ^talk 04:48, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm aware that you cut significant sections out of the article, and I had already seen the fuller version. That doesn't change my opinion one iota. Removing descriptions of Sarfati's views does not help the POV, which was already an anti-Sarfati('s views) POV. To repeat my comments in the AfD page, it is supposed to be an article about Sarfati, which includes describing his views, not an article giving "balance" to his views. Given that most scientists don't have sections with "criticisms", the very idea of trying to provide "balance" to his views (because you don't agree with them) is itself POV.

Can you provide specifics as to exactly what was wrong with the bits that you removed?

Philip J. Rayment 08:29, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

List of rail accidents

There is currently a discussion about whether we should set criteria for inlcusion of accients on the List of rail accidents page, and if so what the criteria should be.

The discussion is located at Talk:List of rail accidents/Criteria for inclusion, where your input would be most welcome. Thryduulf 00:35, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Noah's Ark

Wow I didnt realize I was such a "bad guy". I am sorry you feel that way Philip, but to be honest, Orangemarlin, myself and others do not want a nonneutral WP article either. It is a matter of POV whether a given article, or given statement in an article is neutral or not. This might have been frustrating for you. However, it is also incredibly frustrating for someone interested in NOT pushing a particular narrow religious view of some extremist groups to have articles and editors attacked as being atheists, satanic, stupid, ignorant, etc. If you want a debate by email, maybe I will drop a line on your page. However, the "physics changing" I was commenting on I realize might have been in error. Maybe not. I had thought that the rainbow was a covenant between God and Man to never Flood the earth again. Before the Flood, there were no rainbows and after, there were rainbows. What do you think causes rainbows? Rainbows are caused by the differing coefficients of refraction of different frequencies of light i.e. dispersion of light. Now to claim there was no dispersion before the Flood, and then dispersion after the Flood means that a huge number of things in physics were different before and after. Of course, there are many fantastic other things to swallow in the Flood account or other parts of Genesis, so this should not be a surprise. After some reading, I realize that at least in some interpretations, there had never been rain before the flood, since things were perfect. And only after the flood was there rain. I had never read this interpretation before, but I guess it might be one interpretation. This as well would entail a change in the laws of atmospheric physics. No evaporation of water? No water vapor? No clouds? No condensing of water vapor to form raindrops? And there was still all the same types of life before the Flood as After, more or less? Wow, that is an awful lot to imagine; in fact it is far more complicated than the change of dispersion (although the change of dispersion migth have many far-reaching consequences too). I have no problem with someone believing this. I have no problem reporting it. I think it is an interesting exercise to imagine what it means exactly and why it is unrealistic and what the consequences of believing in this are. However, to claim that this is something different than allegory or a religious myth or poetry or legend in a general secular worldside ENCYCLOPEDIA is asking a bit much. If you believe that it is NPOV to claim that the Flood story truely explains why there are rainbows, or why there is rain, then what do I say to:

• those from thousands of other religious traditions with other creation stories of their own, and other ancient stories purporting to explain where the rainbow comes from, or the rain. How do I explain ramming aggressively some right wing fundamentalist evangelical bible inerrancy Christian bible mythology down their throats as true history? How can I or should I allow it? What do I say to them? I believe it is irresponsible to allow that. I am sorry. I am not some mean ogre. I taught Noah's Ark in Sunday School class even to my students. Do I like Noah's Ark and the Flood? Yes I do. It is the myth I was taught and I am comfortable with it. It is a beautiful story and great poetry. Everyone in our culture should know it (and the reasons it is impossible scientifically) because it is part of the cultural fabric of AngloSaxon culture and many others. But it is not the only such legend that exists. It is only one legend of thousands, and just so happens to be the myth tradition of a lot of people who speak English and have access to the internet and use Wikipedia. Is that the reason it should be described as true? Would I be allowed to teach it as true history in a US public school under the Supreme Court rules? I doubt it. So why is it so awful to abide by the standards of the US Supreme court? I do not think they are pushing some agenda, as often as this charge is made.

• those who know the Ark and the Flood as myth, and expect an encyclopedia to be scientific in nature and about the verifiable and mainly about the dominant position of experts in that area? Do you think many meteorologists or geologists or physicists or biologists would accept an encyclopedia that claimed that REALLY TRUELY the Flood story explains where rain comes or where rainbows come from? Do you think that Encyclopedia Britannica does this? Do you think that World Book Encyclopedia does this? How serious do you think they would take Wikipedia then? Wikipedia is accused of being unreliable because anyone can edit it by Library Scientists and Academics. So what would people think if they came across articles claiming that
  • Noah's Ark is real in all biblical details
  • the Flood was real in all details
  • Rainbows are explained by the Flood
  • Rain is explained by the Flood
  • Fossils are explained by the Flood

How many major museums claim this? Ever seen any other major encyclopedias claim this? Why do you want or expect Wikipedia to claim this? How serious would Wikipedia be taken then?

• Did you ever consider that the reason you find yourself in a minority on creationist articles on Wikipedia is that maybe, your POV is a minority? Among your friends or in your church, it might not be. But in the world at large of educated computer users, it might be a minority POV. Ever consider that?--Filll 13:03, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Orangemarlin, myself and others do not want a nonneutral WP article either.

I believe you. As I have now posted on the Noah's Ark talk page, the problem is not that either of us wants to knowingly push our POV; the problem is that what you see as neutral we see as POV, and vice versa. But you have generally argued as though it is self-evident that your POV is neutral. But it is not self-evident, and you have not backed up your claims.

...it is also incredibly frustrating for someone interested in NOT pushing a particular narrow religious view of some extremist groups to have articles and editors attacked as being atheists, satanic, stupid, ignorant, etc.

It is also frustrating being referred to as part of a "narrow religious view of some extremist groups", when the creationist view is actually pretty widely held, not to mention the various other labels that have been used. And I have never referred to you as satanic or stupid, never referred to you as an atheist (although I may have said that your views are those of an atheist), and I don't recall claiming specifically that you are ignorant, despite the fact that you do appear to be ignorant of the creationist viewpoint.

I had thought that the rainbow was a covenant between God and Man to never Flood the earth again.

It is, but it does not follow that there was therefore a change in the laws of physics.

Ooohkay...But isnt one interpretation that there were no rainbows before the Flood, and then after there were rainbows? As a sign of the convenant?--Filll 06:17, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

After some reading, I realize that at least in some interpretations, there had never been rain before the flood, since things were perfect. And only after the flood was there rain. I had never read this interpretation before, but I guess it might be one interpretation.

I'm glad that you have reduced your ignorance!  :-). So you now have two explanations; one (the change in the laws of physics) that creationists do not use, and one (no rain before the Flood) that some creationists do use. By the way, the explanation about no rain is not "because things were perfect". You appear to be confusing this with something else. More reading needed. But there is yet another explanation, mentionedhere, that God simply used something that already existed (the rainbow) as a reminder of his promise.

That sounds decidedly reasonable and noncreationist. And poetic. It is the kind of answer I would give.--Filll 06:17, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

This as well would entail a change in the laws of atmospheric physics. No evaporation of water? No water vapor? No clouds? No condensing of water vapor to form raindrops?

We have never observed a change in the laws of physics, but we have observed climate change. Not as dramatic as going from no rain to rain, but such a climate change could conceivably occur without any changes in any laws of physics.

Well I guess so, but that would be a HUGE climate change and have huge implications for life on earth.--Filll 06:17, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

However, to claim that this is something different than allegory or a religious myth or poetry or legend in a general secular worldside ENCYCLOPEDIA is asking a bit much. If you believe that it is NPOV to claim that the Flood story truely explains why there are rainbows, or why there is rain, ...

Is it really asking too much to explain that this is what some people, including some scientists, do actually believe? Without having to put the POV that the belief is wrong?

An awfully small minority of scientists would claim it. I have no statistics yet, but it stretches the bounds of credulity.--Filll 06:17, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

To be continued... Philip J. Rayment 05:11, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

...Continued

what do I say to ... those from thousands of other religious traditions with other creation stories of their own, and other ancient stories purporting to explain where the rainbow comes from, or the rain.

It's a common anticreationist tactic to claim that there are lots of other religious creation stories that would each deserve their own space, but really, how many others are there that have the wide support that the Biblical creation account has? And to the extent that there are others, why not include an article about them as well?

How do I explain ramming aggressively some right wing fundamentalist evangelical bible inerrancy Christian bible mythology down their throats as true history?

Rather, how can you explain that question when that is not being proposed?

It is a beautiful story and great poetry.

It is not poetry (it does not conform to the style of Hebrew poetry) and it claims to be history.

So why is it so awful to abide by the standards of the US Supreme court?

Because I'm not a U.S. citizen? :-)

Why do you want or expect Wikipedia to claim this?

Why do you keep claiming that this is what I want, when I have repeatedly said the opposite?

Did you ever consider that the reason you find yourself in a minority on creationist articles on Wikipedia is that maybe, your POV is a minority? Among your friends or in your church, it might not be. But in the world at large of educated computer users, it might be a minority POV. Ever consider that?

Yes, I have considered that, and I think that your last point is correct. That is, my view is a minority of educated computer users, at least those editing Wikipedia. So what? Since when is that the standard for anything? Have you considered that approximately half (if I recall correctly) of Americans believe that God created man? Have you considered that most of the Muslim world agrees? Have you considered that only a small proportion of the entire world's population believes that man evolved from animals? (Australian aboriginal creation stories, for example, have aborigines created by various beings.) Or will you, like so many anticreationists, switch from claiming support of majority opinion to support of expert opinion, when confronted with such details?

Philip J. Rayment 09:57, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

So do you believe in:

I have interspersed my replies.

• A worldwide flood?

Yes

• Some huge volume of Water appearing and disappearing?

No, if you mean what I think you mean. Perhaps you could clarify.

• some startling lack of geologic flood evidence, with the correct uniform dates, all somehow gone?

How can a lack of evidence disappear???

• rescuing animals from all over the entire earth and returning them?

No

• an Ark of the prescribed dimensions?

Yes

• caring for the animals and feeding them?

Yes

• taking care of the fresh water and salt water creatures somehow?

Noah taking care of them? No.

• rainbows before and after the flood, but those after the flood are somehow endowed with a special meaning?

Yes

• no rain before the flood but rain after?

I used to believe in no rain before the flood, but I now believe that reference I pointed you to.

• intermarriage among siblings after to repopulate the earth?

I've never seen that suggested, and I don't see why it would be necessary.

• dinosaurs perishing in the flood?

Apart from the ones on the ark, yes.

• dinosaurs living with man?

Yes

• the fossils all being from the flood, and no evidence of evolution?

Most of the fossils being from the flood, not all of them. As I have said a number of times and you haven't cottoned on to yet, it is a matter of how you interpret the evidence.

• The olive tree after growing very fast so the dove could return with a branch?

How fast would be necessary? What presumptions are behind this question?

• the ark lasting for a few thousand years without decaying much?

I believe that, if it is above the snow line, its preservation is possible. Until/unless it is discovered, I keep an open mind on whether it has lasted.

• the version of the flood story in genesis being the correct one, and the others with their variations being just mistaken copies of the genesis version?

Yes.

and so on and so forth...--Filll 06:17, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Huh?

Philip J. Rayment 10:05, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

A discussion between Filll and me regarding my comments on my user page has been archived here.

Phillip: I am not a christian

But i believe christians, muslims, atheist what ever should have their views presented clearly.

what is happening here is a travesty. only saving grace is that the ID, evolution and other articles are SO biased it is very obvious. thats what got me here. i read the ID article and said 'wow thats all wrong' then tried to make some changes. anything and i mean anything that is anything less of condemning ID will not be included in the article.

this is a failed experiment.

what is this FA all about? is there anyway that pro-IDers can treated fairly here?

raspor 15:51, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

"FA" is "Featured Article". In order to be featured on the front page of Wikipedia, it must meet certain requirements, although I've never bothered about just what those requirements are.

Pro-ID people and creationists are outnumbered on Wikipedia, and Wikipedia's enforcement of its WP:NPOV rules is in the hands of people who are, in many cases, themselves biased and often unable to see their own bias, so until something drastic changes, I don't see any hope that we can be treated fairly. See here on my user page for my views and experience in this (although it talks about creationists, the same applies to ID because the anti-ID people lump ID in with creation).

Philip J. Rayment 23:17, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I dont think i ever seen such bias as i have seen in the wiki articles . it is truly phenomenal! raspor 00:23, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Have you considered creation wiki? [4] for creationists only.--Filll 00:28, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Are you addressing that to me or Raspor? And why? I am a some-times editor at CreationWiki, but that has nothing to do with the requirement for this wiki to be neutral, which it's not in these areas. Philip J. Rayment 11:56, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

P.S. With your lack of response, I was wondering if you'd seen my replies to your comments above, but I assume from your visit to this page that you have? Philip J. Rayment 11:56, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I have seen yes.--Filll 12:02, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

What is your definition of an atheist?

• Are Catholics Atheists?
• Muslims?
• Hindus?
• scientists?
• people who believe in natural selection?
• people who are not sure that there is a god?
• people who believe in evolution?--Filll 15:01, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

That seems an odd question, or perhaps I should say that those options seem odd options, but I'm guessing that you have some reason for suggesting them. My answer, however, is that an atheist is someone who believes that there is no god. Of course, that cannot be proved (as atheists keep reminding us, you can't test the supernatural, and you also can't prove a universal negative), so atheism is a faith position. If that answer doesn't satisfy you, perhaps you could explain why you included those options. Philip J. Rayment 01:07, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok fair enough. You live in australia which has a different culture. I do not believe someone who is an atheist is religious, at least in my definition of religious. Maybe in yours, but not mine. Now I have had people (creationists, fundamentalists, biblical literalists, biblical inerrancy people etc) tell me that all those groups on the list are atheists. It is a common weapon of creationists and fundamentalists to call people even from other sects or faiths, atheists, satan worshippers, evil, damned, cursed, infidels, blasphemers, etc etc.--Filll 02:04, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree that an atheist is not religious according to your definition, but an atheist IS religious according to at least one of the definitions found in dictionaries. And, as I have said on my user page, a definition that requires a belief in God is arbitrary and self-serving. Both Christianity and atheism (along with others beliefs) are (a) beliefs, and (b) worldviews. I have a worldview that presumes God. An atheist has a worldview that presumes no god. The claim of many atheists that their worldview is somehow superior simply because it presumes no god is self-serving nonsense, and the term "religion" is frequently used in this way, i.e. to make a qualitative distinction between atheistic and theistic worldviews.

I can understand, up to a point at least, Christians considering your options as evil, cursed, etc., but I can't see how they consider Catholicism and the other religions as atheistic, except for Hinduism, which doesn't recognise a god as such. And I can also understand some people simplistically assuming that everyone that doesn't accept the Biblical record (e.g. evolutionists) are atheists, despite the number of Christians that (compromisingly) accept evolution.

Philip J. Rayment 02:26, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I think that people use a variety of definitions for religion so that sometimes even cleaning a toilet can be a religion. They also use a variety of definitions for atheism to use it as a weapon against people they hate.--Filll 14:50, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

what def of atheist could be used as a weapon of hate? and how can 'cleaning a toilet' be considered a relgion?? raspor 15:02, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

The definition of religion as "believing in something with passion and engaging in it with passion" will make cleaning a toilet a religion. I have had creationists use this argument on me to prove that science is a religion. And I pointed out about plumbing and cleaning toilets, and they are agreed. Ok...--Filll 15:05, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Filll, I made a case for your use not being a useful one. Do you have nothing to say in reply to that?

...to use it as a weapon against people they hate.

It couldn't possibly be just people they disagree with, rather than "hate"?

Philip J. Rayment 01:20, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I thought I saw it, and replied. Most people do not hate. But the problem is, there are always extremists. And in the US, we have plenty of those. For example, consider [5].--Filll 01:50, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

You replied to the post, but you did not address that point, as far as I can see.

Yes, there are always extremists, but as you said, most don't hate, so perhaps it would have been better to write "...use it as a weapon against people [or even "philosophies"] they disagree with"? That way, you are being more accurate and avoiding inflaming situations.

Philip J. Rayment 02:14, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

is anyone in charge here?

they are butchering these articles. and even using false quotes and not citing. how does this work? is there anyone who can stop them? i dont understand this. raspor 13:16, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Editors are expected to work out their problems between themselves. There are sysops who can ban vandals, etc., but it has to be clear vandalism, or an agreement of a large majority of editors who vote on a particular issue. Given that the majority are pro-evolution, including many of the sysops, there is little that can be done to stop the systemic bias.

However, most editors do have some standards that they will adhere to, and clearly false quotes should not be a problem. The problem is selective use of quotes, where the quote is accurate but the bias is in judging the relevance of using a quote or not using a quote. You can put {{fact}} and {{verify source}} tags ( and ) on things that you believe need references or are wrong, and this should prompt them to provide a reference and support the quote, but if you overdo it, they will just accuse you of being difficult.

I planned on putting {{verify source}} tags on much of the 'Science of Noah's Ark' section added to the Noah's Ark article recently, because it is loaded with straw-man arguments and the like, if nobody else removed it first, but somebody did remove it, fortunately.

Philip J. Rayment 13:41, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

i put {fact} there and felon deleted it. so what can be done? its just bull crap??? raspor 13:45, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm, yes, so he did. I don't agree with FeloniousMonk's edit comment, but I guess that sometimes it is not clear exactly what you are looking for a reference to. Are you questioning that the Discovery Institute are at the centre of controversy, or that particular things listed are the cause of those controversies, or what? Philip J. Rayment 13:53, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

no the quote was false. it said the DI used the word 'heart' which it simply did not and the quote was not cited. i am actually amazed that such bias exists. it is scary raspor 14:21, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I was just trying (when I ran into an edit conflict with you) to add that I've just seen the discussion on the article's talk page. I also see that you have some support in Ec5618. Give it a day or so and see if they come to their senses and modify that lead paragraph.

And by the way, I agree with the thrust of your argument with Filll in that same section. His claims that accepting ID/creation means throwing out all the things that science has given us is unadulterated nonsense (are you reading this, Filll? :-) ). But lay off criticising him about the colons. As far as I'm concerned, his practice of alternately indenting and outdenting is not the norm, but there's no hard and fast rules on this, and it does at least help separate responses, which is the main aim.

Philip J. Rayment 14:26, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

phil can you show me the comments that you made about noahs ark and were moved. i really am stunned at how unethical the atheists are here. it really gives atheists a bad name raspor 14:28, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

This edit shows it being added (it was actually Orangemarlin's work, but he appeared to be having trouble doing so, so Filll added it instead). It was subsequently modified slightly (links and references for the other wooden ships, mainly), but this edit shows the substance of it. If you prefer to see the final version of it, here is where it got deleted. Philip J. Rayment 14:37, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes I am reading this. As far as I know, the colons are only supposed to let you distinguish between one reply and another. The reason scientists and others do not want to accept supernatural causes in science is that science would be damaged. As I said before, it is like having physics homework to do. It will take 20 steps to solve this problem. You know the answer from the back of the book. You can only get to step 3. So you give up, claim a miracle moved you from step 3 to step 20 to get the answer. And then expect to get full points when it is graded. And in fact, want to get a better grade than a student who works the problem fully and gets all 20 steps down. It is not that we are atheists (most arent probably). It is not that we are against religion. And that science of Noah's Ark section I did not write, but I did edit a bit. I think it is too long myself and needs to be tightened considerably, or else moved to a separate article. with a short summary paragraph in Noah's Ark with a link. But I am not sure how to do this. There needs to be far more material for a separate article I think. Stuff like no geologic record, stuff about the rainbow. Stuff about saltwater and fresh water fish. Stuff about caring for the animals. Stuff from the bible indicating how deep the flood waters supposedly were. And to make it balanced, creationist explanations for each of these. --Filll 15:01, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Filll, I've had a few occasions now to wonder if you are properly reading the things that you are replying to. Even though your use of colons is unorthodox (i.e. not the normal use on Wikipedia talk pages), I was actually defending you in that regard. Second, you point out that you did not write that Noah's Ark section. Good, I'm glad we agree, because that is what I said!

Your argument against accepting supernatural causes in science is ignoring a few factors. First, it dismisses out of hand the possibility that the supernatural is the cause of some events. Second, no creationist argues that we must invoke the supernatural as explanations of present-day repeatable observations. Apart from one-off miracles (which are not scientifically studyable anyway, being one-offs), we only argue that the supernatural can be (not must be) invoked for past events (actually, one-off events again) for which the supernatural is the best explanation. Again, given the theoretical possibility that there could be a supernatural cause in some cases, what, in principle, is wrong with that?

Your analogy of the physics homework presumes what it sets out to prove. That is, you have defined jumping from step 3 to the last step as being incorrect, so of course doing so is incorrect! But what if nobody knew whether there were more steps in between? How could anybody say that jumping to the last step was incorrect?

Philip J. Rayment 01:36, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I might use colons in a nonstandard way. Sorry. That does not mean I have not misread something however, so beware. It is quite possible there is a supernatural cause. If so, it is fine, it is just not part of science. Science cannot investigate it really, as even some of the creationists like Duange Gish acknowledge. Also, I am not alone in this. I have good company, like the National Academy of Sciences and the US Supreme Court. I am glad to be in their company and you can have Ken Ham and Kent Hovind. So science just does not include those things. I should also point out in case you do not know that:

• Science is not about what is true
• Science is not about what is real
• Science is not about what is correct
• Science does not prove things (proof is in mathematics and logic, but not science)
• Science does not have facts, except for data, and even they have error bars

Science seeks efficient explanations; that is, science tries to find the most parsimonious natural explanations which can be used to make predictions that match observations. In most cases, this has produced useful results. So we have come to trust it. That is all. Science is just a method for finding things out, or sometimes the name for things found out by science.--Filll 01:47, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I might use colons in a nonstandard way. Sorry. That does not mean I have not misread something however, so beware.

Again, you have misread! I was not saying that you have misread because you use colons in a non-standard way. I said that you had misread because you apparently didn't realise that that I was agreeing with you.

Your claim that science is not about what is true, real, and correct is weird. I understand that science does not "prove" things, it can only fail to disprove, but if science is not about learning real things about the real world, what on Earth is it for? Also, you claim that science is not about what is true, real, or correct, but then you use it to claim that historical claims are not true, not real, and not correct! To be more specific, you are claiming that science cannot test the supernatural (and, by implication, cannot test for consequences of supernatural actions, such as a global flood), but at the same time claiming that science has tested to see if those consequences have occurred, and has decreed that they didn't! That is self-contradictory.

Philip J. Rayment 02:03, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I think I knew you agreed, but maybe I am confused. It might seem weird, but that is the a true statement about science. Because when you get into quantum mechanics etc you realize science cannot tell you about what is true. It can only make predictions that youc an check. That is what it is for. If the supernatural leaves a natural trace, this can be tested. So if the flood left a trace, then we can test for it. But if the flood left no trace, magically, then we cannot test for it. So all we can say is, according to science, it did not happen. It is more in the realm of pseudoscience. We cannot say it happened or not really; all we can say is there is no scientific evidence for it. And I never meant to claim they DIDNT happen; just that it was not scientific to say that they did. And it is more about myth or pseudoscience than science.--Filll 02:51, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

So all we can say is, according to science, it did not happen.

No, what you say then is that science is unable to test for it. You do not say, "according to science, it did not happen". That sentence itself presupposes that science can determine that, which you've said said (correctly, in the example you gave), that it can't.

However, perhaps the relevant point in all this is that nobody that I know of says that "the flood left no trace, magically". The Bible doesn't say that it left no trace, and creationary scientists certainly don't say it. So if the claim is that it would have left a trace, then what you are saying is that it is scientifically testable. If it is scientifically testable, it is not pseudoscience. And you are going further. Having agreed that it is scientifically testable, you are then claiming that there is no evidence and therefore decreeing that it did not happen.

Of course, I have disputed the claim that there is no evidence.

Philip J. Rayment 13:10, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

If the flood left no trace: If you prefer to split hairs, then we can say it is unknowable using the methods of science or something to that effect. There is no scientific evidence for it. At the moment, you have not encountered someone of import who claims the flood left no trace. However, I suspect I could find such a person, now or in the past who claimed such a thing. And would probably claim that the lack of evidence is itself evidence of a miracle of God. Having no evidence at all PROVES God! This the beauty of being a creationist! You never lose any argument! And people are so stupid they will usually buy it! And you win, and you can be as proud as a peacock. Which they are, at least in the US. If it left evidence, and that evidence is the kind of evidence that we can look at using the tools of science, then we can see if that evidence is consistent with the understanding of science. Unfortunately, according to what we know in science at present, there is NO scientific evidence for a worldwide flood of that length and magnitude, and NO evidence for the rainbow story and NO evidence for the Ark story. And NO evidence for the Ark being that high up the mountain since the water was not that deep, supposedly. Ghosts are scientifically testable and ESP etc, but both are pseudoscience. Why? Because the true believers refuse to accept the failure of the tests. Same with the ark. And you can dispute the claim that there is no evidence all you want. It is not mainstream science, that is for sure. Of more than 99% of all professional scientists with professional level employment and credentials.--Filll 13:26, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

fill, define supernatural

raspor 15:05, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Outside the natural realm. Something like magic, or god, or ghosts, or witchcraft. Those are not from a dictionary, but just my off the cuff definition. There is a famous saying, any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic, so it is not completely free from temporal bias and other biases.--Filll 15:09, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

very bad defintion. if you cant define it then how can you say it should not be considered in science. are you saying 'prayer' is supernatural. how about telepathy. see you arent thinking clearly about this. raspor 16:05, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Telepathy has been tested and never been found to exist. So yes, telepathy is supernatural. Prayer has also been tested and not been found to be helpful, however I am less anxious to call prayer supernatural. Expecting a response from the supernatural might unscientific, but there is some suggestion that prayer helps with brain chemistry. So it is more complicated.--Filll 16:19, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

well define supernatural. how can you say its bad to have in science if you cant define it raspor 16:47, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Something that is not or cannot be scientifically determined to be part of the natural world is supernatural. Want me to get a dictionary?--Filll 16:57, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

see that says nothing. now you are saying supernatural = not natural. so now define natural. have you heard of operational definitions. thats what you need here raspor 17:12, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

You might be interested in my article on creationist Harry Rimmer.--Filll 16:57, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Here is a dictionary definition I more or less agree with: 1. Of or relating to existence outside the natural world. 2. Attributed to a power that seems to violate or go beyond natural forces. 3. Of or relating to a deity. 4. Of or relating to the immediate exercise of divine power; miraculous. 5. Of or relating to the miraculous.

I also like the definition from wikipedia of "unexplained". I would couple that with "unexplainable". If you have something that is unexplained and unexplainable, it has a supernatural cause.--Filll 17:18, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

DUH!!! we cant use a dictionary defintion for something we want to use scientifically. now try again. this time an 'operational defintion' if you really are a scientists you know exactly what i mean. what the heck do you do as a "" scientist "" ?? raspor 17:21, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I do stuff you would not like as a scientist probably since it has to do with the natural world. But that is irrelevant here. The relevant part is, I know what a scientist is and what they do. I gave you numerous operational definitions and you did not like them.--Filll 17:28, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

So how do YOU define the supernatural?--Filll 17:29, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

frankly you sound like a college freshman or sophomore. you cant even say what you do cuz you just prob have taken chem 101 and now think you are a 'scientist' you obviously dont know how to make proper scientific defs. i am not going to teach you. look it up or take a course. you keep bitching about the ** supernatural ** but cant define it. you are looking very silly raspor 17:33, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I might be very silly but I have good company, like the National Academy of Sciences and the US Supreme Court. I am glad to be in their company and you can have Ken Ham and Kent Hovind. Be my guest. You are not willing to offer a definition, which is fine. It speaks volumes. As for someone who seems like a freshman, you never capitalize words at the starts of your sentences, as is conventional. You use words like "defs" and "cuz". Hmm...--Filll 17:36, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

i writing short hand here i know 'because' and 'definition' if you cant see that you are ignorant. who is ham and hovind? i study science. real science. you constantly bitch about the supernatural then ones some asks to tell what it is and you are dumb. look dont bring that word up again till you can define it. you have no idea how to make a proper sci def. ok give me the formula for not rolling a seven 3 times in a row with dice. should be able to do that in 1 minute. give me your answer. or go back to being a lab assist and clean the petri dishes. and we should not be doing this on phils space. do it on your own space. raspor 17:48, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

So I am ignorant huh? I see. Well I think that the facts speak for themselves.--Filll 17:52, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

you are correct. they did! raspor 17:58, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

We will see if you continue to be smug. Good luck.--Filll 18:00, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

dave gave me a gold star. so there!!! raspor 18:08, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Creationist Challenge

I would like to challenge anyone to find me 5 creationist scientists that are currently prominent scientists. The requirements are:

• currently alive and actively working in science
• believes in biblical literalism and biblical inerrancy
• works in a part of science that overlaps with creationist claims, such as biology and in particular, evolutionary biology, molecular biology, genetics, etc. --Filll 17:24, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Before I try answering that challenge, let me get some clarification.

• What do you define as "prominent"? And for that matter, why is "prominent" a criterion?

Prominent would be a faculty member at a leading university, like ANU in Australia or Harvard in the US. Or someone comparable

• What do you define as "working in science"? Does that include, for example, writing papers, or teaching?

Teaching at a major university, not a community college. That is a university that is accredited and gives out PhDs for example. Definitely with peer-reviewed publications in major science journals

• Why do they have to believe in Biblical literalism? (Many creationary scientists deny that they are Biblical literalists, for example.) Or perhaps I should be asking what form of Biblical literalism, seeing as how the linked article does allow for a form of literalism that accepts that some parts of the Bible are not intended to be taken literally.

Someone who believes that the earth was created 6000 years ago, someone who believes the Great Flood happened exactly as in Genesis, and was worldwide and all the animals were put in the Ark. Someone who believes that speciation is not from evolution. Someone who believes all language differences come from the Tower of Babel. That sort of thing. They have to believe in biblical literalism because that is a good standard for creationist to try to differentiate from the huge group of people that believe in theistic evolution.

• Do you really want someone to name a creationist scientist who works in the field of evolutionary biology??? (Okay, I accept that they don't have to work in that area, so I suppose that question is not important.)

Philip J. Rayment 01:49, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

It is silly to have a mathematician or an engineer who never deals with evolution and has never confronted the evidence or taken a course give an opinion in this matter. I want to see someone (well 5 people) who has denied all of evolution's evidence and still is a successful scientist.--Filll 02:58, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm still not totally happy with your requirements, but I will give you an answer after I've explained my concerns, including a few that I hadn't mentioned before.

1. I felt that "prominent" was too vague, and left anybody I might suggest open to be rejected on the grounds that they are not sufficiently "prominent". In your clarification, you have again used such weasel words, by referring to "leading" universities. It's a bit better, I guess, but still a bit open.
2. You talk about people at universities, but what about people employed by scientific organisations as research scientists? You do say "Or someone comparable", which perhaps covers that, but again, it is very vague. I'm assuming that reputable research organisations are acceptable to you.
3. Your first requirement was that they be alive. I can understand that you don't want someone from 150 years ago, but surely there would be no problem with someone who died in the past five years, for example? (Note that all the people I list are alive, but this point has bearing on my next point.)
4. You wanted someone who "works", i.e. present tense, in science. But again, why not someone who used to work in science, but no longer does? Perhaps someone who recently retired, or etc. Also, if it must be someone who currently works in science, the requirement for them to be alive is redundant. So I'm assuming that someone who has met your requirements (all at the same time, e.g. they were creationists when they were working), even if they don't currently meet them, is okay.
5. None of the people I've listed have "denied all of evolution's evidence". As I've told you before, creationists and evolutionists have the same evidence. It's how you interpret that evidence that they differ on. So these scientists accept the evidence—or the data, if you prefer—but believe that the evidence better fits with a young-Earth creationist explanation.
6. I was going to ask what all this would prove, but you have answered that with your comment (paraphrased) about scientists "who reject evolution evidence and are still successful scientists".

Okay, having made those clarifications, on to the answer (and I've given six, for good measure):

• Dr. John Baumgardner has a PhD in geophysics and has developed a creationist model of plate tectonics, while working at Los Alamos National Laboratory. A New Scientist article 'spoke highly of [his] 3-D supercomputer model of plate tectonics'[6].
• Professor Maciej Giertych is head of the Genetics Department of the Polish Academy of Sciences at the Institute of Dendrology in Kornik, Poland.
• Dr. John Hartnett has a PhD in Physics and works at the University of Western Australia, with a rank of Associate Professor. He has been developing a creationist cosmology that is different to Russell Humphrey's cosmology (see next scientist).
• Dr. Russell Humphreys has a PhD in Physics and has developed a creationist cosmology. Until a few years ago he worked at the Sandia National Laboratories in New Mexico.
• Dr. Ian Macreadie is Principal Research Scientist at the Biomolecular Research Institute of Australia’s Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation.
• Dr. John Marcus has a PhD in biological chemistry, and who works as a research officer at the University of Queensland.

So, once you've checked out that I'm not making these up, will you acknowledge that it is quite possible to reject evolution yet still be a successful scientist?

Philip J. Rayment 13:58, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Ian Macreadie is in the Health Sciences and Nutrition department, not a biology department. His area of expertise is diet. KillerChihuahua^?!? 14:26, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Ian Macreadie works (or has worked) on viruses, including AIDS research. It is not true that "his area of expertise is diet" as though that is all he knows. He stands. Philip J. Rayment 01:48, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok very good. I do not necessarily accept all of those. But your claim is that those are all YEC? And interpret the extant data as supporting a Young Earth? --Filll 14:31, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes. The possible exception is John Marcus, but it is very rare for someone to believe that the world was created in six days millions or billions of years ago, and there is no indication in the chapter he wrote that he does believe that.

These all have to be examined in detail, but John Marcus, for example at a quick glance, appears to believe in natural selection but have a problem with chemical evolution/abiogenesis. He also believes in a 6 day creation. He does not necessarily believe in a Young Earth from what I can see. Well most scientists also have quite a problem with chemical evolution/abiogenesis; it is a mystery. And I think most scientists admit that. People of course will continue to attempt it in the laboratory, but it is not really part of evolution at all. Also, being a research officer is not really doing science; it is someone who has given up science to hand out money probably, but this has to be checked. The rest have to be examined carefully. When these lists of purported scientists have been skeptically examined in the past, holes have emerged. Such as scientists who sign petitions not understanding what they are. Vague petitions. Scientists who became slightly senile when retired and signed a petition. Scientists who are treated with contempt by their colleagues who only keep their job because they are tenured, but have long ago ceased to do real work. The claim is that Behe is respected by his colleagues, but his department has a big disclaimer on its web page about his work, and 20 of his colleagues in his department have all publicly denounced his work as trash. So...just pure atheist bias? or something else?--Filll 14:41, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

So what if John Marcus believes in natural selection? You already know that informed creationists believe in natural selection, which is an observed mechanism that evolutionists claim to be one of the main mechanisms of evolution; it is not evolution itself.

Your comments about abiogenesis not being a part of evolution are irrelevant as far as this challenge is concerned, but also misleading. See here, and to save reading the whole thing if you don't want to, search for "abiogenesis is not evolution".

The list of scientists surveyed by the ID people was misrepresented or mistaken as a list of supporters of ID, rather than what it really was, a list of people prepared to question the status quo, or something like that. However, it is unfair to use one example of a questionable list to throw doubt on all other lists. It is also a common urban myth propagated by anticreationists that most creationary scientists have bogus degrees. No doubt there are a few example (on both sides of the fence), but they are not the norm and it is unfair to judge such a list on the basis of a few bad apples.

I don't know much about Behe's situation, but there is the case of Dean H. Kenyon, who had co-authored a book about chemical evolution but when challenged with creationist arguments changed his views. He had life tenure at his university, so they couldn't sack him. So they banned him from teaching instead. Bias? Most certainly. For more on bias, you should find some info here.

Philip J. Rayment 01:48, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Baumgartner has a phd in mantle modeling and is working on ocean modeling. This is a far cry from evolutionary biology for sure. I would doubt that he ever studied biology past high school, and maybe not even before. He has a speculative model on how the flood could have happened; he has not published it in a standard journal or presented it at a standard conference. It is not clear that he is a YEC or believes in supernatural causes.--Filll 16:26, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Your requirements included "works in a part of science that overlaps with creationist claims". Biblical creationists claim that the world is around 6,000 years old and was ravaged by a flood about 4,500 years ago, and his work with plate tectonics certainly overlaps that, particularly given that his plate tectonics model works best as rapid plate tectonics during Noah's flood. Baumgardner met the requirements, so he stands, as do all the others so far.

Philip J. Rayment 01:48, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Update: an example of an anticreationist ducking and weaving

After waiting over a week (10 days) for Filll to respond to my answer to his challenge above, I asked him (below, under #Tower of babel) how his review of my list was going. This was his response:

I have my answer to the challenge thanks. And I never denied that one could have:

• scientists that are retired who became creationists after they retired
• scientists in nonbiological or nonpaleontological fields who could be creationists
• a very few scientists who are biologists or paleontologists who are professionally active and successful who are creationists

And I see where the answers come from. I have and had before I even asked, 4 websites with 4 lists already. I can cut and paste as well as you or anyone else. So I have my answer. Thanks.

Let's see how well this response fits with the original challenge:

• Filll said, I want to see someone (well 5 people) who has denied all of evolution's evidence and still is a successful scientist. Yet now he says, I never denied that one could have ... a very few scientists who are biologists or paleontologists who are professionally active and successful who are creationists. So first he wants evidence of just five, and now he says that he already knew of some!
• Filll asked for scientists that work in a part of science that overlaps with creationist claims. He did also mention biological areas as examples of this, but did not limit it to biologists. So I supplied scientists covering the fields of biology, cosmology, and geology. He has not disputed that they are in areas that overlap with creationist claims, but now tries to duck by claiming, "I never denied that one could have ... scientists in nonbiological or nonpaleontological fields who could be creationists.
• Filll also tries to muddy the waters with his claim that I never denied that one could have ... scientists that are retired who became creationists after they retired. Although I did include one or two retired scientists, I did not include any who became creationists after retiring, and I said that I would not do so. This response is a red herring.
• Filll tries to denigrate the answer to the challenge with the comments that I can cut and paste as well as you or anyone else. He asked for a list, and he got a list. But it was not with cutting and pasting. I personally selected the scientists that I gave by way of answer, and apart from a few phrases, I wrote the brief descriptions.
• Filll not only tried unsuccessfully to challange two of the scientists I listed, he also several times expressed doubt about my list, with, I do not necessarily accept all of those, These all have to be examined in detail, The rest have to be examined carefully, and When these lists of purported scientists have been skeptically examined in the past, holes have emerged. And on another page, as a prelude to posting this challenge, he wrote: ...can a scientist, alive today, personally believe in biblical literalism, biblical inerrancy, miracles etc and be a scientist in an area that is impacted by biblical teachings ...? I think it would be very hard to find five. And I would dispute most of the names on that list. Despite these repeated doubts and his assertion that he would dispute them, he is now unwilling or unable to dispute them.
• Filll now says I have my answer to the challenge thanks and So I have my answer, as though it was a simple question to which he wanted an answer. But it was more than that—it was a challenge. The challenge was met, and he seems unwilling to acknowledge that there are as many scientists who deny evolution and are successful scientists as he asked for.

Philip J. Rayment 14:44, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I have just decided for the moment to devote my energies in other directions, rather than this one. I thank you for your efforts. I learned something, and maybe you did too.--14:59, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

WP:ANI

I noticed your comment at WP:ANI#User:Raspor and took the liberty of suggesting that you're well placed to persuade raspor to follow policies and guidance. A lot of the problem seems to have arisen from him not reading or understanding advice, and it would be great if you could get him avoid disruption. .,.dave souza, talk 16:14, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, if anyone could possibly persuade Raspor to change his approach, it's probably me. The problem that I have been arguing and that you appear to have overlooked, however, is that he is being provoked by others who are opposing him. For example, one of his few article edits was reverted with the claim that he was a vandal. It clearly wasn't vandalism. Another example is when he pointed out a problem with the lead to the ID article. He was initially dismissed, then someone else (you?) pointed out that he had a point, and subsequently FeloniousMonk denied that Raspor had made a valid point at all! How on Earth am I supposed to convince someone to change their behaviour when others keep provoking him? Of course he is provoking them too, and it's become a vicious circle where each is provoking the other(s), but it should not be up to Raspor by himself to change.

It appears that Raspor appeared on the scene and appeared to others to be (a) a troll or similar, and (b) a creationist (which is probably worse, in their minds), so they reacted accordingly and not very nicely. He (over)reacted to that response, and the others reacted to his reaction, and so forth. His style certainly doesn't help matters, but the fault is not all on his side.

Philip J. Rayment 02:15, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Question

Do you believe in a young earth or an old earth?--Filll 04:02, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

An old Earth. Approximately 6000 years old. Philip J. Rayment 04:54, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Wow that old huh? gee.--Filll 04:59, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Request to disengage

I have requested that Raspor stop engaging in debates over Intelligent Design as they violate WP:NOT and do not help with the larger goal of encyclopedia-building. I would like to ask you to likewise disengage. If he is looking for a debate on ID, evolution, and creation science, he can find a web forum offwiki. If you have any questions, please let me know either via my talk page or e-mail. (Just ignore that big ol' Wikibreak banner--I clearly am.) -- Merope 02:37, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your kind words. I recognize that we may disagree on a number of issues, but your civility and patience have earned my respect. Please let me know if there's anything I can help you with in the future. Cheers. -- Merope 13:55, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Tower of babel and Different kinds of creationist

A discussion between Filll and me regarding these topics has been archived here.

My views

The discussion with Filll continues here, and is still in progress.

On reflection

On reflection I have decided that everything you have stated is correct. I apologize for disagreeing with anything you have ever said and I stand corrected. That is all I have to say.--Filll 20:57, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I think I detect sarcasm. If not, we'll have to send some experts to kidnap you and remove you from the cult of Creationism.  :) Orangemarlin 14:04, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

And I think I detect sarcasm in your comment. At least I hope that it was sarcasm that caused you to refer to creationism as a cult. ;-| Philip J. Rayment 01:50, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

But of course...

I understand that we may have some differences of opinion, but you have been completely courteous, respectful, and civil in all of your discussions with me. I hope that I may continue to be of assistance to you. Cheers. -- Merope 10:08, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Encouraging trolls and similar problems.

Phil, while you have made clearly good edits to trains related articles, I've noticed that you have a tendency on the creationism related matters to be less than useful. In particular, you have on multiple occasions encouraged trolls such as Raspor. It would be appreciated if you did not attempt to encourage/support such disruptive users in the future. JoshuaZ 19:39, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I have also made good edits to creation-related articles in the past, and the only reason that I "have a tendency ... to be less than useful" on them now is because of the overwhelming effort of fighting the anti-creationist POV that is rampant here and which is trying to impose its own bias on them (see my user page). If not for that, I would be quite useful, having a good knowledge of and many years experience with the debate.

You should also note that although I stood by Raspor as he was mercilessly attacked by the anti-ID brigade, I actually discouraged Raspor from attempting to contribute to those articles.

And please name those other alleged trolls that I have encouraged "on multiple occasions", or withdraw the accusation.

And what are the "similar problems" that the heading mentions?

Philip J. Rayment 22:05, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Maybe he means me? Am I a troll?--Filll 23:29, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Do you really think that JoshuaZ might consider you a troll? As for me, I don't know if you are a troll. The definition is vague and admitted to be difficult. It says early on that a troll is someone who deliberately and intentionally attempts to disrupt, and part of the problem is that it is difficult to determine intentions, but I don't believe that Raspor intended to disrupt, so by that definition I don't even believe that Raspor was a troll, let alone you. Philip J. Rayment 04:33, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Fill was not the concern- the two who came to mine were Raspor and Rednblu. I should possibly clarify two things: 1) in this context I am not using troll as a measure of what they intend but as merely a description of an unredeemably disruptive user 2) I didn't see you discourage Raspor from contributing to those articles and if you did that presumably makes your conduct not as problematci. JoshuaZ 17:51, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Goodness, you're digging back into the past there! So now you are calling an editor who is still here editing after three and a half years, a troll? And nobody on his talk pages has suggested that he is a troll. Calling him a troll has just reinforced my belief of a bias against editors who are not out to demonstrate how ID and creationism is wrong. Philip J. Rayment 11:05, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Discussion with Filll

Hello: Sorry to bother you. I was just following up on some of Filll's recent edits, in part out of interest in what he's been doing of late, and I noticed the ongoing "discussion with Filll" #1, 2 and 3 linked to above. While I found it very interesting, I should point out that Wikipedia discourages use of the User_talk pages for blog-like activity, and encourages users to utilize another host for this sort of thing. I think the info is in WP:NOT and a couple other places. Anyway, interesting conversation. ... Kenosis 11:17, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

As one tries to grapple with all sides of the creationism/evolution controversy, this sort of discussion throws into focus multiple areas in which each side has not made their points clear or is otherwise deficient. In this sense, it serves a valuable WP function, by illuminating both sides of this controversy with greater clarity, so more complete aspects of the controversy can be captured and rendered in articles.--Filll 13:27, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I've offered before to have this type of discussion by e-mail, and I tend to agree that it is borderline appropriate. On the other hand, it's not much different to a lot of off-topic comments on article talk pages, and if this conversation is inappropriate, what about posts about videos, which posts have nothing to do with the article content, but is just to have a laugh at ID and creationism? Hmmmm. A case of the pot calling the kettle black? Philip J. Rayment 11:16, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I will point out that some of those videos are valuable references that I have added to the appropriate articles. Some people prefer to watch videos or listen to podcasts than to read something. Is that a problem?--Filll 13:45, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I have no problem with people watching videos or podcasts; did I say anything to indicate that? No. What I said was that they had nothing to do with the article content, but were simply to have a laugh at ID and creationism. Apart from the one with Kenneth Miller (which I only watched the first two minutes of, but appears to be a serious video), how do any of the others contribute to the debate? What is encyclopedic about them? I'm quite sure that if someone added a link to a creationist parody of evolution, it would be removed very quickly as being irrelevant. Philip J. Rayment 01:54, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Here is a good video of a preacher giving some atheists whatfor: [7]--Filll 14:30, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, right. Do you think I'm that gullible? Philip J. Rayment 01:54, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Here is a good example of [8]--Filll 14:51, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

A good example of what? A good example of a group that is the exception to the rule? It's funny how this is about the only example of bigoted Christians I can recall ever being pointed to. Philip J. Rayment 01:54, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

This is just the tip of the iceberg, at least in the US. The US is brimming with bigoted Christians. I could find you many many websites and other evidence of blatant obnoxious behavior and beliefs. As I said before, to me they are not Christians. They are just hate-mongerors and bullies who are hiding behind the label of "Christian" to spew venom and hatred. And they engage in many of the beliefs I described above and many of the reprehensible beliefs. They truly are the "Christian" counterpart of the Taliban, Al Qaeda, etc. And before you tell me that Christians are not violent etc, these "Christians" are. Maybe not in Australia, but Australia is not the US.--Filll 04:14, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't really think that you are a good one to be criticising Christians for being bigoted, spewing venom, etc., with some of your venomous rants[9] [10].

You use Fred Phelps' group as an example of bigoted Christians, and at the same time claim that they are not really Christians! You are right—they are not really Christians (judging by the way they act), so why count them as examples of bigoted Christians? And from what I've seen, even Fred Phelps' group doesn't go as far as getting violent, at least in the manner of the Taliban and Al Qaeda.

I don't actually doubt that you could find me a few more examples if I asked, but that would not prove your ridiculous contention that America is "brimming" (filled to capacity) with them.

And remember, the discussion is really about the attitudes and actions of creationists and the like, but you would not be able to find any of this sort of bigotry and venom from the main creationist groups. That is, you are quoting examples from the fringe, not from mainstream creationism.

Philip J. Rayment 02:10, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

It depends on what you mean by "brimming" and "extremist". Do I think the average american is an extremist? No of course not. Do I think that there are maybe 1 or 2 percent that are sort of religious kooks? Yes I do. And are these religious extremist groups all violent? No but they do provide cover for small groups of religious extremists that are violent. The hate-filled rhetoric that becomes permitted in these contexts pushes the people at the extremes off the deep end. And I would place ALL kinds of these groups in the category of "not very Christian" if you ask me. However, if you ask them, they will claim the opposite. And this type of situation, at least in the US, includes a big dollop of creationism. NONE of these crazy extreme groups (or almost none) are not creationists. Do I think all creationists are like this? No I do not. But the statements about gays being evil and scientists being evil and minorities being evil and liberals being evil and evolution being evil and women's liberation being evil and jews being evil and catholics being evil and so on by the "Christian" religious extremists in the US give cover to the extremist groups. You have to remember, that in the US, the groups that want the death penalty are all Christians and mainly creationists, the groups that want the war in Iraq are all Christians and mainly creationists, the groups that want a bigger military are all Christians and mainly creationists, the groups that want to cut services to the poor and health care to the poor are all Christians and mainly creationists, the groups that favor removing pollution controls on industry are mainly Christians and creationists. It is a very nasty right wing thing in the US. Forget charity to the poor and a rich man is more likely to get to heaven than a camel through the eye of a needle; they ignore all that. It is about guns and money and hating those who are different in the US. Are there a lot here like that? Not a huge number, but enough to make things uncomfortable, and enough to exercise immense political pull. And I beg to differ; I have encountered these sorts of attitudes from people in "mainstream" evangelical groups.--Filll 02:33, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I think you do not get a clear picture of the US evangelicals in Australia. They are very different places and cultures.--Filll 02:36, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I will accept that there is some sort of correlation between so-called "right wing" issues and people who would believe in some form of creationism. And I'm glad that you've now clarified that "brimming" means one or two percent. Personally, I think that's is very misleading to use "brimming" to mean one or two percent. I suppose that on that basis you would agree that the scientific community is brimming with creationists!

It's hardly fair to paint all Christians with the brush of those who call themselves Christian, especially given that more mainstream Christian groups reject the claims of the extremists (as the Southern Baptist Convention has of Westboro Baptist Church).

You've included an awful lot of claims of problems in that list, and some of them are not as black and white as would seem. For example, you (apparently) think that it is wrong of the Christians to reject aid to the poor, but you are likely misreading and misunderstanding the situation. A new book has researched this and shown that the opposite is true. A reviewer wrote:

The further to the left you are - particularly to the secular left - the less likely you are to donate your time or money to charity. Imagine two demographically identical people, except that Joe goes to church regularly and rejects the idea that the government should redistribute wealth to lessen inequality, while Sam never goes to church and favors state-driven income redistribution. Brooks says the data indicate that not only is Joe Churchgoer nearly twice as likely as Sam Secularist to give money to charities in a given year, he will also give 100 times more money per year to charities (and 50 times more to non-religious ones).[11]

Note that "Joe" is opposed to government support of welfare, but this does not mean that he is uncharitable.

Please document where mainstream creationist groups (that's what I said, not evangelical groups) demonstrate the bigotry and venom that you claim.

(By the way, early tomorrow morning I will be going away for a holiday, and may not get to post again for over a week.)

Philip J. Rayment 05:21, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Here is something you might find interesting:[12] --Filll 05:03, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

In that case, you might find these interesting: [13] and [14]. Flemming gets it wrong in the opening scene when he says that "Christianity was wrong about the solar system". The Church was wrong about the solar system because it had adopted the secular views of Aristotle, but this was challenged by Christians (creationists, of course) within the church. So score one for the creationists, and zero for the secular view. And for Flemming. Philip J. Rayment 05:46, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Well you are free to believe that if you want (although I think you must be kidding). However, to my view, you are not even wrong.--Filll 05:53, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

What makes you think that I'm kidding? I believe it because it's true. And I don't follow your last sentence; is that what you meant to write? Philip J. Rayment 06:32, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I am NOT painting all Christians with the brush of those extremists. However, if you talk to those extremists, they would claim only THEY are Christians and all others are blasphemers and infidels and atheists etc (including you probably). That is what I am trying to tell you. And I would dearly love you to experience this for yourself. I would love you to talk to another creationist or another fundamentalist of a different kind who would let you have it with both barrels, spitting and cursing and damning you for your beliefs. Because at that point, you would start to get a good idea of what the terrain out there is like, and what it feels like to have someone with a superior attitude preaching at you from a religious position and claiming to be holier than thou. It is pretty unpleasant, and frankly that kind of attitude drives away more people from religion than anything. It is nuts. It is hair splitting over something that cannot be proven. And each group thinks they and only they are right. And is willing to engage in hate tactics towards others. I agree that Christians donate more voluntarily, probably. But I also am a bit concerned with the agendas concerning capital punishment and war and pollution. And the right wing groups HERE push the government to support Israel. Most of the foreign aid of the US goes to Israel, and often is used to attack the former residents of the land, the Palestinians. I did not say all groups demonstrate it. But enough do that it is a matter of serious concern.--Filll 05:53, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I've had experience with the sort of person you talk about, on an Internet discussion site a few years ago. There were several (American) Christians in the forum, and he was the only one like this. One person was supporting him, but as he grew more vitriolic, that person ended up rejecting the person concerned.

Part of your problem may be in the way you conduct yourself. None of the following tips are guaranteed to work in all cases, of course, but they are common problems which often tend to inflame discussions.

• Remain civil yourself. Name-calling is likely to anger the other person.
• Don't presume that because the person has opposing views, or is a Christian or a creationist, that they are stupid. So don't talk down to them.
• Don't argue that they are wrong by quoting or referring to others whom your opponent rejects. The different views of others is not an argument against the view that your opponent is arguing for.
• Don't argue that their view is wrong on the grounds that it doesn't fit with your view. I've seen many times, including on Wikipedia talk pages, where creationist views were portrayed as wrong simply because they contradict evolutionary views. Instead, argue how opposing views are internally inconsistent, contrary to their source (e.g. contradict the Bible), or contrary to evidence. On this last point, be careful to distinguish between the actual evidence and interpretations of the evidence. For example, rocks are (sometimes) dated by calculating an age based on measurements of isotopes according to a theory about how the two are related. That is, the dates themselves are not directly measurable. So quoting dates as actual evidence is not going to convince any young-Earth creationist, not because he rejects evidence, but because he rejects (some aspects of) the theory about how the two are related.
• Don't use straw-man arguments. This is another very common one (which you've used) and which I've written about on my user page. Be sufficiently aware of the view which you are arguing against.

Philip J. Rayment 06:32, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

• Well I do not think having an experience on the internet is quite the same, IMHO. But that is fine.
• You are free to believe all my experiences have been because I am a jerk.
• I do not think creationists or fundamentalists are stupid. I do think they are dangerous.
• It is impossible to know what will or will not be rejected by the other person. In person, I mainly just say nothing and let them have their say, unopposed. I am very reluctant to say anything.
• I will not acquiesce just to make them feel better on the internet, however.
• All creationists pick and choose what they believe out of the bible. It is impossible not to. So anyone who starts to use biblical literalist arguments I realize is in some very strange place intellectually, and probably is undereducated about their own faith.
• Nothing will convince a YEC. I do not want to even bother trying because there are an endless number of excuses that can be invented. For example, I recently read that the reason there are no human remains in the old rock strata along with other fossils is that volcanic magma intruded into those strata and vaporized all the human remains after the flood. Ok, if people want to believe this, then be my guest.
• HOWEVER, whatever people believe, they do not have the right to force their minority views on the majority. Should the Muslims in Australia be allowed to force you to pray in a mosque several times a day? Believe me, they are as sure they are right as you are. They are confronted with Christian symbols in Australia all the time, just as you see information about dinosaurs and evolution all the time.
• What the public thinks about scientific issues does not carry a lot of weight. If you had a sore throat, would you go to the plumber to have him look at it? If you wanted a weather forecast, would you go to your auto mechanic ?

--Filll 14:32, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Last post for a while...

You a jerk? Nooooo... Rather, I've seen the way that you argue, and at least some of those points apply to you. I'm not saying all of them do.

• I am fine with people thinking I am a jerk. That is how it goes. It is almost impossible to prevent.--Filll 15:22, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Do you think that creationists and fundamentalists are dangerous in an intellectual sense, or a physical sense. If the latter, you are still generalising from the exceptions, even if the exceptions are more numerous that I think they are.

• Both, actually.--Filll 15:22, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Saying nothing is a good idea. Asking questions is better. Once I asked a person a series of questions that took him around in a circle back to where he started, but contradicting himself. It showed up the inconsistency of his view without me having to tell him he was wrong.

• In person, it is not up to me to show them they are inconsistent. All it will do is make them angry and dangerous and threaten me. They scare me.--Filll 15:22, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

It's impossible to not pick and choose? Why is this? And what is intellectually strange about Biblical literalism (not the mainly-hypothetical extreme version that takes even metaphors literally)?

• You are free to believe it is possible to avoid picking and choosing. And not everyone agrees on what is metaphorical and allegorical.--Filll 15:22, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I find that evolutionists can invent endless excuses also. Like why creatures either did or did not evolve. Or why sex (gender) is an advantage and a disadvantage. And so on. It's a very slippery idea that can explain almost anything.

• Science does not claim to explain anything. And you have to distinguish between accepted scientific theories with data supporting them, and assorted conjectures, hypotheses etc. Even the accepted theories are only provisionally accepted and probably will eventually be discarded.--Filll 15:22, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

It's okay for the majority to force their views on the minority though is it? And it's okay for the minority to force their views on the majority if the minority are the self-appointed experts? I'm not sure that its all that relevant, but most of the opposition to Christianity, in Australia at least, comes from the atheist types, not the Muslims. For example, preschools might ban nativity scenes supposedly because it will offend those of other faiths, yet the Muslims say that they have no problem with them. It seems that it's only the atheist types who do.

• You are forced to believe evolution? How? You are not forced to study it in school here. I never studied it in school. Even if you are required to take it in school, I am sure you do not take more than a few minutes of classtime to discuss it, unless you want to be a biologist. It is true that evolution is everywhere in the dominant culture, depending on how you define it, just as Islam is everywhere in Saudi Arabia. Some claim that seeing a picture of a dinosaur offends them. Some claim that seeing pictures of DNA offend them. Some claim that hearing about primate relatives to man offends them. So, I do not know what to say in those cases. It is impossible to avoid offending people. I do not agree with the removal of creche scenes myself, or menorahs. I am more of the "live and let live" camp. And just as antismoking sentiments might be dominant in a certain society and offend some people, based on the the advice of a minority of specialists, society has decided to discourage smoking.--Filll 15:22, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

If I had a sore throat, I'd go to a doctor. And for a weather forecast, the TV station (just kidding). And for what the Bible teaches, a theologian or similar, not an atheist like Flemming or Dawkins. And for the history of the world, the God who was there and recorded for us what happened, not a scientist who wasn't there and is speculating about what happened after first of all ruling out that God could have been involved. Your point?

• For the history of the universe, I look for the evidence that God left us. Not a book written by men that has a wide range of problems when used as literal truth or a science text. And i have no problem with using that evidence for things that happened long ago, just as the police and legal system have no problem using evidence of a past crime.--Filll 15:22, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Now, who would you go to in each case?

• Very funny.--Filll 15:22, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Philip J. Rayment 14:55, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

If you want a bit of a taste of beliefs of a prominent American creationist

Take a look at Jack Chick and Chick Publications.--Filll 15:36, 2 February 2007 (UTC)