Talk:Panthera pardus tulliana

The Persian leopard and Anatolian leopard are not the same thing.

The article starts with "Panthera pardus tulliana is the Persian leopard or Anatolian leopard". I think this is inaccurate as the Persian leopard and Anatolian leopard are not synonyms for the same population. One is from the Iran region and the other from Anatolia, but both belong to the same subspecies as defined now. Perhaps something along the lines:

Panthera pardus tulliana is a leopard subspecies with a historical distribution in the Caucasus, Southern Russia, Iran, Turkmenistan, Afghanistan and Turkey. In the past several subspecies were described for leopards within this range, including Panthera pardus saxicolor in Iran (the Persian leopard), with Panthera pardus tulliana restricted to leopards in Turkey (the Anatolian leopard).

It's difficult to get the necessary precision without getting too wordy, so I think it best discussed here before making changes. The above makes the point, but the wording can certainly be improved upon. It took a while to get agreement on the phrasing for the former tiger subspecies. —  Jts1882 | talk  14:17, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Firstly I don't know if they are they same or not, but please don't put another Latin name in the text to confuse non-expert readers like me. Secondly as we know from DNA analysis that at least one Persian leopard lived in Turkey don't you think it is likely that Persian leopards are breeding with Anatolian leopards rather than being two separate populations? Chidgk1 (talk) 15:18, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

I suggest the following definition: .. is a leopard subspecies in the region encompassing Anatolia, the Caucasus and Iranian Plateau With this focus on ecosystems, we don't need to list the countries in the lede. What do you think? -- BhagyaMani (talk) 17:17, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Not entirely accurate, as populations in Southern Russia and southwestern Iran are excluded. Ddum5347 (talk) 17:26, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

I like the idea of ecoregions rather than countries. How about .. is a leopard subspecies in parts of Anatolia, the Caucasus, the Iranian Plateau, and some surrounding areas? Chidgk1 (talk) 17:35, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Re Anatolia : I think we don't even have to write .. parts of .., as this is apparently a recent i.e. 20th century phenomenon that the pop in Turkey declined to "parts of". Still in the 1950s-60s, more localities were known than today. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 18:16, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Either way, because of geography, Anatolia is synonymous with Turkey. Ddum5347 (talk) 22:41, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

You seem to be filled up with opinions, but little knowledge. And obviously did not even bother to read about Anatolia. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 06:26, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

What other countries are on Anatolia? Please, enlighten us. Ddum5347 (talk) 18:14, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Still too general. We need to either formally define all the regions it is native to or use countries. Ddum5347 (talk) 17:57, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Last time i looked, southern Russia and Dagestan were still part of the Caucasus. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 18:06, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Yeah but the Iranian plateau does not cover all of Iran. So that's an issue Ddum5347 (talk) 18:15, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Map does not quite match text

Maybe it needs amending? Please see my comment at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File_talk:Leopard-tulliana-range.png Chidgk1 (talk) 06:23, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Hey @Chidgk1: you may have seen the recent repeated additions re the cat images in Sarı et al. (2020). What do you think and know about these claims? -- BhagyaMani (talk) 07:09, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

No I had not seen that. Sorry I am just a layperson and don't have any more info or knowledge than what is in the study. I wish the govt here would fund more study - perhaps in conjunction with studying other wildlife - after all camera traps and DNA sequencing must be very cheap nowadays. And citizen science volunteers might be keen to get out into the countryside once we are free to move around again - maybe next year - so I guess only a few professional scientists would be needed. This could be tied in with reforestation efforts - maybe to figure out where best to try and make or preserve wildlife corridors as I think I cited. Chidgk1 (talk) 07:32, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Who wrote this article in the Turkish newspaper that has been ref'ed? And what is the content + arguments for the claim that the photos in Sari et al. (2020) do NOT show a leopard?? -- BhagyaMani (talk) 07:36, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Which newspaper and claim are you referring to please? Chidgk1 (talk) 07:41, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

See this http://www.tramem.org/memeliler/?fsx=2fsdl4@d&detay=904&sxc=&dfx=7699226089755&g=3 that has been added several times. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 07:47, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

I liked your shortening, and only revised to singular. When subspecies is meant, the singular is more appropriate; lets use the plural form in regards to *several individuals* of this subspecies. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 08:55, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Is tramem.org a reliable source?

Re above I had not seen that website before but it seems to be a forum for sharing and discussing photos of wild mammals, not a newspaper. I will ask on Turkish Wikipedia whether anyone thinks it is a reliable source or not and if I get an answer I will feedback here. Chidgk1 (talk) 08:22, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Super! I meanwhile removed the link to this website + revised the phrasing re the photo in Sari et al. (2020). -- BhagyaMani (talk) 08:38, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

I had a look at this link again and saw the responses by Mallon and Breitenmoser. But since this is a blog, I think it's not usable; see Wikipedia:Blogs as sources. -- BhagyaMani (talk) 09:01, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Subspecies changing

@LPFCW: what is your source for changing it to saxicolor? The most recent taxonomic analysis confirm it is tulliana. And why are you changing the order of the countries? It isn't important. Ddum5347 (talk) 00:27, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

@Ddum5347: My source is the genetic studies done by various researchers. For instance, please see:

• Miththapala, S.; Seidensticker, J.; O'Brien, S. J. (1996). "Phylogeographic Subspecies Recognition in Leopards (P. pardus): Molecular Genetic Variation". Conservation Biology. 10 (4): 1115–1132. doi:10.1046/j.1523-1739.1996.10041115.x."
• "Uphyrkina, O.; Johnson, E.W.; Quigley, H.; Miquelle, D.; Marker, L.; Bush, M.; O'Brien, S. J. (2001). "Phylogenetics, genome diversity and origin of modern leopard, Panthera pardus" (PDF). Molecular Ecology. 10 (11): 2617–2633. doi:10.1046/j.0962-1083.2001.01350.x. PMID 11883877. S2CID 304770.".
• Farhadina, M. S.; Farahmand, H.; Gavashelishvili, A.; Kaboli, M.; Karami, M.; Khalili, B.; Montazamy, Sh. (2015). "Molecular and craniological analysis of leopard, Panthera pardus (Carnivora: Felidae) in Iran: support for a monophyletic clade in western Asia". Biological Journal of the Linnean Society. 114 (4): 721–736. doi:10.1111/bij.12473.

And much of scientific papers in high ranking journals that all refer to the subspecies in this region as the Persian leopard.

Would you please let me know what is your source to change the entire page name under the name of the Anatolian L.? --LPFCW (talk) 00:43, 7 April 2021 (UTC)LPFCW