Talk:Anti-Ottoman revolts of 1565–1572

Not a Greek revolt

This was not a Greek revolt. Only because several Greek historians have falsified descriptions of real events does not mean that the whole world should be presented this nationalistic false narrative. Either the article's title should be change to "Anti-Ottoman" revolt of 1567-1572, or the article needs to be significantly trimmed down, with the events between Himara and Arta entirely removed, because most of the participants certainly cannot be described as Greek. Çerçok (talk) 18:11, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Why too much accusations without evidence... the mixed community of Himara played a tiny part in the movement, which spread in all of Greece: Mani, Galaxidi, Patras, Aegina. Mainstream bibliography is in agreement with the present title.Alexikoua (talk) 19:40, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

There is more than sufficient evidence. Anyway, since they are insignificant, please remove the parts about referring to the region from Himara to Preveza. The rest can remain. If you want to keep these non-Greek revolts in the article, the title has to change. Çerçok (talk) 22:35, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

I'll check the bibliography in order to limit the information to Greek involvement (Papagianis, Melisinos, Greeks from Corfu etc.).Alexikoua (talk) 22:51, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Take note of these excerpts from Xhufi 2017 referring to the events in Himara:

- Zorzi Marmori, Manol's brother, explains in a letter to the Venetian Senate that he participated in the battles as part of the army of the Albanians: nella prossima passata guerra nelle imprese della Zimara e di Sopoto con il carico che avevo dell'esercito di Albanesi, a qulle di Nivizza et Gardichi con il governator mio fratello et con l'Eccellentissimo Venier e quella di Margariti (p.845)

- According to Antonio Longo, Manolo Marmori was credited with the rising of the Albanians against the Turks: per buona causa della solevatione delli Albanesi contro Turchi (p.844).

- The assault on the Nivica castle was started by Manolo with a small number of Venetian mercenaries and a large number of Albanians: tolte alcune poche militie pagate di quelle di Soppoto e grosso numero d'Albanesi (p.846).

- The subsequent assault on Kardhiq is also described as an Albanian army, aided by the Venetian mercenaries of Sopot Castle: li Albanesi hebbero aiuto di quelli di Soppoto (p.848).

- Manolo Marmori himself describes the events as happening not in Greece, but in the Castle of Himara and other parts of Albania: castello della Cimerra et altri luoghi di Albania (p.851).

This was an Albanian anti-Ottoman rebellion, instigated and led by the Venetians. I don't think this can be part of an article titles "Greek revolt". Çerçok (talk) 06:52, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

If these are notable enough revolts related to the one in question they shouldn't be removed to fit the title, rather the title should be changed into something in line with what research discusses. Alltan (talk) 02:10, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Cercok: Can you provide the full quotes from the above? In letters written by Mormori as displayed in Venetian sources (given by Hatzopoulos, Setton and other 16th century specialist which are online and verifiable) he declares himself as being very proud Greek. Your sources above are offline so I can't wp:AGF for now.Alexikoua (talk) 21:26, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

One of the many online reference about Mormori: Setton, Kenneth Meyer (1991). Venice, Austria, and the Turks in the Seventeenth Century. American Philosophical Society. p. 108. ISBN 978-0-87169-192-7. "Mormori , who was apparently of Greek origin , frequently praises the Greeks , and mentions members of his own family in the struggle against the Turks". Mormoris played a minor part in those revolts and his activity was geographically restricted (though neutral sources do not name him Albanian), we had several leaders in this incident, from southern to western Greece.Alexikoua (talk) 21:35, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

@Alexikoua You are repeatedly unwilling to improve Wikipedia. First, the most politically charged source of nationalistic propaganda which you frequently cite here is offline (Epirus: 4000 years...). Should we remove all material from this source? Second, it is an unbelievable manipulation to transform Mormori , who was apparently of Greek origin , frequently praises the Greeks , and mentions members of his own family in the struggle against the Turks' into declares himself as being very proud Greek. Zorzi Marmori praises the Albanians and mentions his family members in the struggle against the Turks. Maybe it means he declares himself a proud Albanian? I do not think you believe that.

Third, most importantly for this article, Mormori's account that you mentioned does not refer to the 1567-1572 events: it was written in 1563. The quotes I brought are all in reference to the events in Himara, Sopot, Nivica and Kardhiq during the period in question. I have already given you the quotes, I don't know what else there is to verify in this case.

The title of the article should be changed to "Anti-Ottoman revolts of 1567-1572', and a few improvements can be made to the paragraphs. Çerçok (talk) 22:18, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Setton is online (the one that confirms that Mormoris declared himself a proud Greek) and Vranousis can also be verified from snippets through gbooks. Well, such comments the most politically charged source of nationalistic propaganda which you frequently cite here is offline are not productive. No, it is a collective work by top scholars on the field (Cabanes, Hammond, Kondis etc.) awarded by the French Academy and other high-quality educational institution (Athens Academy). We should be careful when posting such claims. You provided unverified and partial quotes that contradict existent bibliography. It is up to you to prove that everything involved as south as Preveza was purely Albanian, as you claim. So far the correspondent bibliography is against this claim. Alexikoua (talk) 01:05, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

We are discussing the revolts of 1567-1572 here, and I have provided all the necessary evidence to show that the Himara events were Albanian revolts in Venetian records, including as seen by the leaders themselves. You have failed to quote any relevant material to show that they were Greek revolts (the Marmori discussion belongs in the Marmori page). This article cannot stay in the current form. Çerçok (talk) 07:11, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Setting aside the fact that the region between Himara and Arta/Preveza has been a traditional area of Greek settlement for millennia, including the historical period in question, you are contradicting yourself. First you say that this wasn't a Greek revolt, then you say that "the rest can remain" as long as references to the territories coveted by Albanian irredentists are removed. Which is it? And you have yet to demonstrate that your sole Albanian author is a reliable source. •ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ• 19:21, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

I am speaking with sources, not personal opinions. Bring sources to contradict mine or accept the truth. Çerçok (talk) 21:14, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Is this your guy? Your distinguished Albanian “scholar” who claims that Greek foreign minister Nikos Dendias is actually an Albanian due to a vague similarity between his surname and a random Albanian word? I think we can safely disregard anything he has to say (or write) about anything, since it is patently obvious he is ****. Cite a reliable source or go away. •ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ• 21:31, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Stop wasting our time and present sources. Çerçok (talk) 22:20, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

This is really weird. We should use heavy precaution on dealing with what passes wp:N.Alexikoua (talk) 04:40, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

• @Alexikoua@ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ you are opposing the changes but in 4 days you have brought no evidence against them (besides one source that refers to different, earlier events). When I was asked to provide evidence for my initial comment, I did so. Please do the same, otherwise this is just a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Quote your sources and show how they contradict what I have written above. Çerçok (talk) 07:15, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Cercok: This was a Greek revolt, even the titles in the correspondent bibliography point that this is known as such. There is a mountain of evidence don't use wp:IDONTHEARTHAT.Alexikoua (talk) 03:29, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

So your only evidence is your repeated opinion, which is irrelevant. I will edit the article now based on sources, not opinions. Çerçok (talk) 06:35, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Discussions are based on the available bibliography. I will ask users to present sources to their claims, preferably comparable to prominent academics such as Xhufi. Alltan (talk) 16:17, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Edits such as this one [[1]] will be reported. The concept that Epirus consist de-facto non-Greek history even if there is a mountain of sources that supports the events is non-productive. Removing even events that occurred in Ioannina snd its surroundings with the excuse that the settlement was ... inhabited by non Greeks equals disruption.Alexikoua (talk) 00:18, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

@Çerçok, I will suggest you first add the proposed additions to the tp along with the quotes/references. If this was coordinated revolt by Greeks/Albanians/Vlachs/Slavs etc. then it should be stated as such in the article (if backed by sources). After that one can file a move request for the article into a more inclusive/properly descriptive title (for ex: Christian revolt of 1567-1572", or the like). You already have added quotes from one of the best specialists on the topic, Xhufi. You can start with him. The title changes to match the event, not vice-versa. Alltan (talk) 01:02, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

per wp:BRD all additions should be first discussed here and in case consensus is reached we can proceed to the addition. @Altan: we should be careful on the procedure and not simply proposing vogue additions of unverified material.Alexikoua (talk) 02:07, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

As I see even Muhaj Ardian cites the revolt in Northern Epirus (he uses the Greek form here) as incidents in Greek lands. Malcolm who follows a pro-Albanian approach on the events doesn't hesitate to name Mormoris primarily of Greek origin. As such we have concrete evidence that the events described here are parts of Greek revolts. Nevertheless various non-Greek individuals participated such as Venetians, Spaniards, and in some sporadic occasion Slavic and Albanian elements in various units, but claiming that everything north of Preveza is defacto non-Greek equals disruption. In simply words it completely un-historical.Alexikoua (talk) 02:11, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Even if Malcolm claimed Mormori (not Mormoris, stop falsifying) was 100% Greek, which he did not, that would not change the fact that it was not a Greek revolt. I am not saying that there was not a single Greek person who participated, but that the revolt in Himara, Sopot, Nivice, Kardhiq, etc. was certainly not Greek overall. As such it cannot be included in this article, under this title.

You have stalled for one whole week, during which you provided a false source and long pages of personal opinions. This article cannot be hostage to nationalistic boycotts to truth and verifiability.

ps: after decades of editing you should know to quote link to sources properly rather than throwing names around and twisting authors' words. Such stalling methods will not work. Çerçok (talk) 06:18, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Unfortunately there is a mountain of falsehoods in this article and I can only try to clean some of it. Çerçok (talk) 06:42, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

You need to present decent arguments and in fact you need to prove that in these operations Greeks do not participated. So far everything is against this extreme point and Greek involvement is well attested north of Preveza. We need to avoid wp:NPA, not helpful at all. Lots of Corfiot Greeks and locals participated in the operations in the Ionian coast. I don't know why you are so eager and can't see the correspondent bibliography. The fact that some non-Greeks participated (Venetians etc.) doesn't change the topic.Alexikoua (talk) 20:24, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

No, you have the burden to present evidence in favor of the Himara rebellion being Greek because it was you who put it in the article. Anyway, I have wasted enough time with you. You obviously are stalling, you have no evidence whatsoever. Çerçok (talk) 21:21, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Where is your evidence that the revolt in Himara, an overwhelmingly Greek region even today, was anything but Greek?  •ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ• 16:08, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

In front of your eyes, above. I am not wasting anymore time with you. Tell your opinions to each-other all you want, the verifiable truth remains clear. Çerçok (talk) 17:26, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Çerçok: Those 16th century events do not had a national character if you mean this you are correct. The uprising had no central authority as many other Balkan uprisings up to the 19th century in the Balkans. Nationalism came quite later, but in this case the ethnonym "Greek" is representative for those events and -most important- supported by the entirety in scholarship. I'm also afraid that expressions like "I'm wasting my time with you" are the definition of not assuming good faith. We shouldn't say that here since we are contributors to the project.Alexikoua (talk) 22:53, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

My eyes can see your citation of a single author who in no way constitutes a reliable source. And your translation of his work is even less reliable.  •ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ• 10:44, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

If you are referring to Xhufi, I would not worry much. Xhufi is one of the utmost authorities on Epirote studies, and we should strive to find sources comparable to his standards. @Çerçok, you so far do not appear to have presented sources for why revolts in Ioannina, Arta or Preveza should be removed. I can however agree to removing Himara, Sopot and Nivica. For the rest I'm afraid sourcing demonstrated so far makes their inclusion necessary. Alltan (talk) 21:36, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Nothing is going to get removed without consensus, which you do not have. Khirurg (talk) 21:40, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Indeed. However I will have to remind editors consensus does not need to be unanimous. Alltan (talk) 21:47, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

To the extent that there is anything resembling consensus, it is to *not* remove anything. Khirurg (talk) 21:54, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Removing the activities of Greeks in Himara although we have a tone of evidence is unacceptable. If some editors need to present a entirely non-Greek Himara that's not the place for nationalism.Alexikoua (talk) 21:58, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Actually, you were never able to address the points made by Çerçok. Instead you made multiple outrageous personal attacks against this user. If we are going to include content about Albanian rebellions in this article then the name will be changed. Ahmet Q. (talk) 22:15, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

There were no Albanian rebellions. No reliable sources to that effect were brought. Attempts to change the name are a waste of time. Khirurg (talk) 22:18, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Ahmet: Are you certain you are talking about this talkpage? Pretending that I launched NPA vios is quite disrupting. Can you became more specific please. Simply saying to a 3rd person to remove Himara since it's completely non-Greek no matter there is a mountain of bibliography equals nationalism. Alexikoua (talk) 22:54, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

"Xhufi is one of the utmost authorities on Epirote studies…"

Says who? Vizion Plus TV, of Xhufi: Dendias në të vërtetë është Dedja! Është arvanitas fame? ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ (talk) 16:25, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

As I see Xhufi is an active politician and well known for his extreme anti-Greek positions. His views have been heavily criticized by mainstream historiography. As such additions based on the specific author/politician should be accompanied with the necessary contribution.Alexikoua (talk) 02:40, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree. Such nationalist authors are a dime a dozen in the Balkans, especially in Albania which is a notorious hotbed of historical revisionism and irredentism. While they may provide a certain level of amusement, they should not take precedence over established academic sources of international significance. ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ (talk) 15:10, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

• I just added sourced content for related revolts in Ulqin, Shkoder, Lezhe, Dukagjin, Mat and Himare. It is not only Xhufi (RS anyway), but also Malcolm, Shabani, Muhaj... It was not a Greek revolt. The article title will be changed to "Anti-Ottoman Revolts". Verifiable truth. Çerçok (talk) 12:26, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Additions from unreliable source

This [2] isn't acceptable. Pellumb Xhufi has been criticized as "virulently anti-Greek" by scholars such as David Ramet [3]. His work has also been criticized by D. Kyriazis [4]. There is simply no room for such a source in a neutral encyclopedia. Even worse, in the edit I reverted, reliable sources were removed without any explanation (Kotzageorgis, Vranousis), as was the word "Greek" in multiple instances, again with no reason and explanation [5]. This needs to stop. Khirurg (talk) 02:30, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

As I see even publications by the "Albanian Institute for International studies" mentions his work as "ethnocentric and monoscopic". Well politicians always tend to exaggerate as Theodoros pointed, that's no news to me. We should use heavy precaution when internatinal scholarship doesn't hesitate to adopt such views towards him [[6]] Schmitt seems quite certain about. Alexikoua (talk) 02:48, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

He has also been criticized by at least two Albanian historians of "changing the meaning of words" [7] According to Mr. Klosi, the historian Xhufi has completely changed the words found in the original, where the inhabitants of Shkodra were distinguished from "Slavs and Albanians", a passage translated by Xhufi as "farmers and mountaineers". Rightfully so, the publicist Ardian Vehbiu used this as an example of the damage that the "nationalist pledge" brings to the historian., in other words, falsifying sources. This is a pretty serious charge. Khirurg (talk) 03:00, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Stop with these falsehoods. Neither one of them was a historian and you know it. Even if they were it would not matter: these are all RS secondary source citations of Venetian documents (+ a PhD dissertation). If you want a critique from a historian, here is a good one about a book which shamelessly falsified history. The time when such nationalistic lies could stay here is gone. Accept verifiable truth. Çerçok (talk) 08:29, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

"Accept verifiable truth" is not an argument. You have not addressed the criticisms of Xhufi by multiple scholars. He will be removed from the article, and in due time form elsewhere in the encyclopedia. As for Frasheri, his work is self-published, and not in a peer-reviewed publication. Khirurg (talk) 14:59, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

It has been weeks since I have presented the evidence, and absolutely nothing has come from you or anyone else against it. It is time to purge wikipedia from nationalistic falsehoods. Accept verifiable truth. Çerçok (talk) 15:49, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

By the way @Khirurg, you opened a discussion board on Xhufi, and nothing came out of it (for the 2nd time). Editing out citations from his book now is simply disruptive editing, and if you continue you will be adequately reported. Çerçok (talk) 15:56, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Cerkok, sorry but Xhufi should be treated with caution. While academic bias is allowed in sources, this is not true for Wikipedia as well. Xhufi unfortunately is characterized by nationalist tendencies in their work and our role as editors in Wikipedia is to be careful when citing such nationalist sources. In your edit summary you asked for the article to be renamed into "Anti-Ottoman Revolt of 1567–1572". I don't mind that. It is important that the Albanians who participated in the revolt, are represented in the title. However I do not agree with using Xhufi as a source. Seeing Xhufi replacing a more neutral source from the Oxford University Press, makes me feel really unease and express my serious concerns here. Xhufi may not be as nationalist as Arben Llalla and others but that doesn't make him any more objective and their work ideal for use in Wikipedia. I strongly oppose replacing Oxford source with the work of a nationalist historian whose work also was not only criticized by other authors, but I am seeing other editors as well expressing serious concerns about. I understand that, for you and perhaps Maleschreiber, from what i see in the RSN, Xhufi seems good, but remember that in Wikipedia, in politically sensitive historical topic areas, we are careful to prioritize reliable sources by non-questionable scholars. I recommend that unless you can provide stronger sources than just Xhufi, to proceed with the other sources such as Psimouli if you are ok with that. Since I haven't heard anything bad about her work so far and she appears to be a well-respected author who lacks nationalist tendencies. What do you think? --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 18:07, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

@SilentResident First of all, thank you for keeping an open mind and especially for engaging with my proposals. Every author should be treated with caution, including Xhufi of course. However, I have only added parts of his book that are also supported by archival sources, and I also brought evidence from Malcolm, Shabani and Muhaj. Nonetheless, I would gladly discuss how this content compares to Psimouli and the Oxford Press source and see if I missed something. Would you like to bring a citation from them which contradicts or expands on what I wrote? Çerçok (talk) 21:59, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

@SilentResident I removed one of the unreliable source?-s after adding Malcolm, who also cites the primary archival source in the same manner as Xhufi. I would rather not remove the other unreliable source?-s unilaterally , but please read Malcolm's pages 123-128 and 136-137. It is not a long read and you will see that every sentence of that paragraph is supported by Malcolm (who actually wrote it earlier). Çerçok (talk) 22:32, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Malcolm, Shabani and Muhaj would be even better! Citing any other scholars is fine by me and I don't see any problems with them. To clarify myself: the issue here for me isn't bias in sources, is about a very specific scholar being cited. Citing biased sources, is permitted in Wikipedia per WP:BIASED. Just it is the citing of nationalist scholars which is not. So feel fee to cite any scholars you may like, as long as Xhufi is replaced by them. The editors have to be careful with what historians they cite because this isn't the first time Wikipedia had to remove them. For example, in 2019, sources by Llalla (who is a much more obvious case of unreliable scholarship) had to be removed too. And many more in the Serbia and Turkey topic areas (with many being related to Kosovo). These topic areas in the WP:BALKANS are plagued by an ultranationalist fever and that's why it is required that editors are careful.--- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 23:39, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

I do not agree with your stance on Xhufi and I believe sources should be judged by content. For example, I have seen several cases of Vranoussis manipulating the primary material, however I would only remove content added from Vranoussis if I have evidence against that particular content, not against him personally. Anyway, since you regard Malcolm more reliable, I added Malcolm citation to the relevant sentences. Çerçok (talk) 01:10, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks again for engaging with the issue. If you agree, we can change the title to 'Anti-Ottoman Revolts of 1567-1572 now. Çerçok (talk) 01:10, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

If we do not have a content dispute, and the same information may be verified by other scholars, then the usual practice in Wikipedia is to use these other scholars rather than the unreliable one. The unreliable one has to go. Period. Yes feel free to initiate a move request. I see no problem with that. You have my support vote. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 01:35, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

CAT:REF Citation errors

Can someone look at this paragraph? [8] It causes at least 5 CAT:REF errors on the article. The CAT:REF error messages can be viewed at this revision, near the bottom: [9] if this helps. - ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 21:34, 31 August 2022 (UTC)