Talk:Siddha Yoga/Archive 5

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Mahasamadhi

The concept of Mahasamadhi (and Samadhi) is an integral part of Hinduism. It is also traditional to refer to a Guru (Swami) as having taken (attained) Mahasamadhi - as opposed to died. Samadhi and Mahasamadhi within Wiki provide the details behind the meaning of these terms. The latter,in particular, illustrates the significance of the word Mahasamadhi in contrast to the word death. The concept of Samadhi is an integral concept in Raja Yoga and is the final stage in Patanjali's eight limbs of Yoga. Also, if one visits the shrines of many saints in India - these place are referred to as the Samadhi shrines (not graves or deathbeds). A search of Wiki with the word "Mahasamadhi" will show many examples of the term as used in this context. Wikipost (talk) (contribs) 05:56, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I do not disagree with any of that. I feel that it's irrelevant in the context of this article and have listed my reasons below. Hopefully we can get some more opinions on this matter.TheRingess 05:59, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Third Opinion Requested (not necessary anymore)

There seems to exist a brief, minor disagreement, between myself and another user over the phrasing used to describe Muktananda's death. The disagreement is over whether or not we should use the phrase "takes mahasamdhi" versus "dies".

My contention is that it's recorded and verifiable that Muktananda died on October 2, 1982. And that the entry in the history section should read simply "1982 October 2 - Muktananda dies". It also has the added benefit of being simple and direct.

Another editor wishes to replace the phrase with "Muktananda takes mahasamdhi".

I contend that this phrase is not desirable for several reasons:

1. "Takes mahasamadhi" is not a common English phrase. For an average reader to understand what mahasamadhi means they are forced to go look it up in another article. Since this is not an article full of technical jargon, there's no real reason why they should be forced to go look anything up. So the phrase actually detracts slightly from the article.
2. If you look up mahasamdhi you find the following sentence: "The difference between physical death and mahasamadhi is that death is not conscious and mahasamadhi is." There are certain established, recognized procedures for ascertaining that a person has physically died. They are accepted worldwide (no heartbeat, no brainwave activity, no breath, etc.). I know of no universally accepted standards for determining that a person "consciously died". And even if there were, I know of no sources that would meet WP:RS that actually verify that Muktananda died consciously. I can only conclude that in this context, the phrase "takes mahasamdhi" represents a particular belief. Hence, the phrase is neither verifiable nor neutral. The best that might be said is "His students/follower/devotees believed that he took mahasamadhi". Which would be find, if it was used as additional material, not just the sole entry.

TheRingess 05:46, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and written a compromise that I hope is acceptable. I left in the phrase "Muktananda dies". It's clear, concise, to the point and easily understood by an average reader. I included "According to siddha yoga literature he took mahasamadhi". This makes it clear to an average reader that it represents a belief and not a statement of fact. It still links to mahasamdhi, so that an average reader can learn more.

I hope that this is acceptable.

TheRingess 06:41, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely - appreciate your input, time and effort !

Wikipost 06:50, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Glad we could come to a consensus. Thanks for being willing to listen. TheRingess 06:54, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Merging Shree Muktananda Ashram here

This is regarding the suggestion to merge the new Shree Muktananda Ashram article into the Siddha Yoga article.

My original intent in creating Shree Muktananda Ashram was actually as a support for a possible article on the Bhagawan Nityananda Temple. There is a whole Wikipedia category on Hindu temples in the U.S. and I think the Bhagawan Nityananda Temple at Shree Muktananda Ashram should be included, not just for the benefit of people in Siddha Yoga, but anyone looking for the opportunity to visit. There are plenty of Indians in the states now, some of whom must be devotees of Nityananda but not necessarily part of Siddha Yoga. The point is, that Shree Muktananda Ashram might have significance for some people outside of Siddha Yoga, so it should have its own article.

Shree Muktananda Ashram is not only significant for the Nityananda temple, but for its place in the history of Sullivan County, NY, and its community involvement there. These are separate from its significance for Siddha Yoga.

MahaDave 14:11, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I see your point. Let's leave the tags up for a couple of days, and if no one else objects, we'll take them down. TheRingess (talk) 15:51, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, sounds good. I know you want to see the Siddha Yoga article expanded and improved. I'll put some effort into other ideas for that.MahaDave 17:40, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

shaktipat intensives

A few days ago I added some text about the significance of Shaktipat Intensives in Siddha Yoga, namely that they are one of the most important distinguishing features of Siddha Yoga (which they are). Someone removed this piece of text. Maybe I'm too thin-skinned, but was there are particular reason for removing this passage? Ditto, where I added a passage to the page on Shaktipat, saying that Gurumayi is one of the gurus who purportedly have the power of shaktipat. This passge has also been removed. Once again, why? I didn't mind when people removed some external links I added to some pages, because I didn't fully understand the policy on external links, but in this case it was perfectly legitimate text that was deleted. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Neilrobertpaton (talk • contribs) 11:00, 11 March 2007 (UTC).

Hello Neil. Don't take the removal personally. I'm the one who removed the material for several reasons.

1. In my opinion, it represented original research or original material. It was not a statement of fact, but a conclusion (or synthesis of ideas) drawn from facts that the average reader might not have access to. You did not specify a source, please read Wikipedia's guidelines of attributability.
2. Your placement of the statement ruined the footnote for another sentence.
3. The information in this statement probably does not belong in the intro.

Perhaps, you could rewrite your material in a new section. Please read the attributability guidelines above. Did you mean that the intensive distinguishes Siddha Yoga from all other schools of yoga? Did you mean that it distinguishes SY from Christianity? Did you mean that the intensive distinguishes itself from all other practices in SY. I think that you should check the facts on how often intensives are held, my understanding from the SY website, is that currently there is 1 a year.

Don't draw the conclusion for the reader, present the facts, and let them draw what conclusions they will.

I cannot speak about the shaktipat page, I didn't remove that material. You can look through the page history to see who removed it, perhaps you might ask them directly.

BTW, welcome to Wikipedia. TheRingess (talk) 15:54, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

more on shaktipat intensives

Regarding the frequency of Shaktipat Intensives: they are definitely held more than once a year. Last year I went to two intensives myself, in June and October. They have always been held more frequently than one per annum. Not much point running a page like this one if you can't even find out the most basic facts. What a wank.