User talk:Onefortyone

This is my discussion page. Would you be so kind as to leave new messages at the bottom. Thanks. User:Onefortyone

• Archive 1

Laurens Johannes Griessel-Landau article under dispute

Thank you, User:AniMate, for your commentary on the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Laurens Johannes Griessel-Landau page. There you recommend to "merge the event into the article". I would agree, but the problem is that User:Lochdale is frequently deleting most of my edits concerning Elvis Presley. Some months ago, I tried to reinstate this version of the "male friendships" paragraph. But it was repeatedly removed by Lochdale. See [1], [2]. The same thing happened with the Griessel-Landau case, which once was part of the Elvis article. See [3]. I created the Laurens Johannes Griessel-Landau article in order to solve the problem by excluding the material from the Presley page. As you are not part of the edit war, may I ask you to include the following paragraph in the FBI files section of the Elvis Presley article, if you agree:

As Elvis was a very popular star, the FBI had files on him of more than 600 pages. According to Thomas Fensch, the texts from the FBI reports dating from 1959 to 1981 represent a "microcosm [of Presley's] behind-the-scenes life." For instance, the FBI was interested in death threats made against the singer, the likelihood of Elvis being the victim of blackmail and particularly a "major extortion attempt" while he was in the Army in Germany, complaints about his public performances, a paternity suit, the theft by larceny of an executive jet which he owned and the alleged fraud surrounding a 1955 Corvette which he owned, and similar things.

According to one of these accounts, Elvis was the victim of Laurens Johannes Griessel-Landau of Johannesburg, South Africa, who was hired by the singer in Bad Nauheim, Germany, as an alleged specialist in the field of dermatology, but had made homosexual passes at the singer and his friends. When on 24 December 1959 Presley decided to discontinue the skin treatments, Griessel-Landau endeavored to extort sums of money from the singer. According to the FBI files, Griessel-Landau "threatened to expose Presley by photographs and tape recordings which are alleged to present Presley in compromising situations." An investigation determined that Griessel-Landau was not a medical doctor. Finally, "By negotiation, Presley agreed to pay Griessel-Landau $200.00 for treatments received and also to furnish him with a $315.00 plane fare to London, England." After having "demanded an additional $250.00, which Presley paid" and a further "telephonic demand for 2,000 £ for the loss of his practice which he closed in Johannesburg", the blackmailer departed to England.

This is much shorter than the Griessel-Landau article and summarizes the main facts. However, it could well be that User:Lochdale will delete the whole paragraph from the Elvis article, as he frequently did in the past. See also this recent discussion. Onefortyone 19:47, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I'm not comfortable inserting that text into the article. Please don't be offended, but I still think you're giving undue weight to the allegations. While it is well sourced, the text isn't written in an encyclopedic fashion. If I can find a way to incorporate it, I will, though it will be much shorter than your proposed edit. You can probably tell from my contributions that I'm not a prolific contributor, but I will help if I can. The best advice I can give you is to follow the steps to dispute resolution and re-read the advice given to you be Nicholas Turnbull here [4]. AniMate 20:27, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I am not of the opinion that I'm "giving undue weight to the allegations", as I am only citing what the FBI files say. If you compare it with the Laurens Johannes Griessel-Landau article, it is only a very short summary of the main points to be found in the files (without "allegations"):

Laurens Johannes Griessel-Landau

Laurens Johannes Griessel-Landau was the name of a swindler and blackmailer who represented himself to be a medical doctor and skin specialist. At the end of November 1959 he was hired by Elvis Presley to make skin treatments, but in December 1959 he made homosexual passes at the singer and his friends. After Presley's decision to discontinue the treatments, Griessel-Landau claimed to be in the possession of compromising photographs and tape recordings and endeavored to extort money from the star. The case was dealt with strictly confidentially and referred to the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Details of the case according to the FBI files

According to one of the best documented FBI files on Elvis Presley, the popular singer was the victim of Laurens Johannes Griessel-Landau of Johannesburg, South Africa, who was hired on 27 November 1959 by Presley as an alleged doctor specialist in the field of dermatology in Bad Nauheim, Germany, when the star was in the military service. During his skin treatments, which involved Presley's shoulders and face and took place in the singer's quarters, the man had made several homosexual passes at Elvis and his friends. According to the FBI files, Griessel-Landau

is alleged to have admitted to Presley that he is bisexual. His first homosexual experiences took place early in his life in the orphanage in which he was brought up. On 24 December 1959 Presley decided to discontinue the skin treatments. At the time that he told Griessel-Landau of this decision he also thoroughly censured Griessel-Landau for embarrassing him ...

This drove Griessel-Landau into rage and he decided to extort sums of money from the singer or to ruin his career. The case was referred to the FBI. Elvis "was interviewed on 28 December 1959 concerning his complaint that he was the victim of blackmail..." According to the FBI files, Griessel-Landau "threatened to expose Presley by photographs and tape recordings which are alleged to present Presley in compromising situations." An investigation determined that Griessel Landau was not a medical doctor.

Confidential treatment

Presley didn't take the matter to court. According to the FBI files,

Information concerning the subject was furnished to this office by the Provost Marshal Division, Hqs., U.S. army, Europe, with the indication that they wished to avoid any publicity in this matter since they did not want to involve Elvis Presley nor put him in an unfavorable light since Presley had been a first-rate soldier and had caused the army no trouble during his term of service.

Final negotiation

Because things did not turn out the way he expected, Griessel-Landau endeavored to play the case down in letters he wrote on 27 and 28 December claiming that he sympathized with Elvis and that he had decided not to take action against the singer. The FBI files say that finally,

By negotiation, Presley agreed to pay Griessel-Landau $200.00 for treatments received and also to furnish him with a $315.00 plane fare to London, England. Griessel-Landau agreed to depart to England on 25 December 1959 at 19.30 hours from Frankfurt, Germany. [But] Griessel-Landau did not leave as agreed, rather returned and demanded an additional $250.00, which Presley paid. A day later Griessel-Landau made a telephonic demand for 2,000 £ for the loss of his practice which he closed in Johannesburg, South Africa prior to his departure for Bad Nauheim to treat Presley.

Then the blackmailer

departed Rhein-Main Air Field, Frankfurt, Germany at 16.00 hours, 6 January 1960 on Flight 491, British European Airway for London. ... He is alleged to be seeking entry into the United States. No contact between Presley and Griessel-Landau has been reported since 5 January.

Further reading

In his book The FBI Files on Elvis Presley (2001), Thomas Fensch reproduces actual texts from numerous FBI reports dating from 1959 to 1981, which represent a "microcosm [of Presley's] behind-the-scenes life." The author reprints, in the appendix, many original documents as full-page illustrations, showing exactly how the FBI handled such cases. Pages 30-34 deal with Presley being the victim of Griessel-Landau. Among the documents the author provides are copies of the original FBI files concerning the case and letters from Griessel-Landau to Elvis and one of his secretaries.

External link

• Federal Bureau of Investigation: Elvis Presley

I agree that the text you proposed is much shorter than the article I nominated for deletion. I still think what you proposed is too long. I'm sorry, but I can't support you on this. I'll take a look at the article, and I'll try to find a way to incorporate some of the information into it. AniMate 21:05, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

You may also take a look at other sections of the Elvis Presley article, for instance, the "Trivia", the "Elvis Lives?" sections, etc. which are full of fan stuff of the first degree.

Saying that article is a mess would be an understatement. It's full of fan "stuff," and I'll try to clean it up later tonight. As it is, I have too much to do right now, but I fully intend to work on this article. I can't even get through the intro without shuddering whenever I read "...rising from humble beginnings to extreme heights in popular music through charisma with a capital 'C.'" This is an encylcopedia, and even Elvis' biggest fans have to follow the stylistic guidelines. I'll work on it, but I have no intention of getting involved in an edit war. AniMate 21:56, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Don't forget that the most complete version of the article is this one. Interestingly, shortly after my recent contribution to the Elvis article, which reinstated several sections deleted by vandals (see [5]), User:Lochdale appeared on the scene removing the passages he frequently removes (see [6], [7], etc.). Significantly, he did not appear earlier in order to revert the vandalized page. Onefortyone 23:02, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Sigh. I've removed plenty of vandalized text. Have you ever considered that you are constantly getting into these disputes (with numerous people) because your sole obsession is the Presley article. God forbid you ever focused on something important. Lochdale 05:18, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

You are wrong. Lochdale. As your contribution history clearly shows you did not remove vandalized text on 19 October. It also shows that you are primarily removing my well-sourced edits from the article. There is not a single paragraph of some significance you have written. I have not yet seen you contributing a single quote from one of the major books on Elvis. On the other hand, I have contributed much material to several important sections of the article: Elvis's youth, his music, his movies, his relationships, his male friendships, his consumption of drugs, his death, his manager Colonel Tom Parker, the allegations of racism, the Elvis cult, the FBI files on the singer, etc. etc. You can only remove passages I have written. That's the difference between us two. Onefortyone 17:55, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I've never felt the need to overpopulate an article on an entertainer the way you have. Your entire Wiki life seems to be focused on Presley. The real difference between us is that you have a baseless agenda. Regardless, I am comfortable with my edits and will continue to make them. Lochdale 19:36, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Elvis

Hello,

An Arbitration case involving you has been opened: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Elvis. Please add any evidence you may wish the arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Elvis/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Elvis/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Thatcher131 02:40, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Question

Would you please answer the question at Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Elvis/Workshop#Question_to_Onefortyone. Fred Bauder 19:42, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Arbitration

Thanks for your note. As I pointed out in my note, my comment was based primarily on the matters identified by the arbitrator who wrote the decision, who had picked up on one issue in particular. I wasn't saying there weren't other issues that could also be mentioned in the decision. Newyorkbrad 21:48, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Elvis

This case is now closed and the results have been published at the link above.

• Lochdale (talk · contribs) is banned indefinitely from editing articles which concern Elvis Presley. All bans to be logged at Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Elvis#Log_of_blocks_and_bans.
• Onefortyone (talk · contribs) remains on probation with respect to editing articles which concern celebrities, see Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Onefortyone#Onefortyone_placed_on_Probation.

For the Arbitration committee. Cowman109^Talk 20:41, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Invitation

Want to actually join us? :) Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 22:20, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure if I am the right person for the LGBT studies project, as I am straight and not gay. However, I am historically interested in the closeted lives of several gay or bisexual Hollywood stars. Onefortyone 22:33, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

You do not have to be gay to be a member (I'm only half-way. :P ). We can and have welcomed straight members, so you're not alone. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 22:43, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the invitation. Perhaps it may be a good idea to join your project. I am frequently getting into trouble with some other users for calling some Hollywood stars bisexual or gay. Though my contributions are supported by many independent sources, these fans still think the stars were straight and endeavor to remove edits that say otherwise. Onefortyone 23:17, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

There can be an issue with that on Wikipedia. However, the amount of information you're putting in about James Dean is out of proportion to the rest of the article. Wouldn't it be best to have maybe two paragraphs explaining the allegations and gay iconity, rather than a page long exposition? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dev920 (talk • contribs) 23:23, 4 March 2007 (UTC).

Some days ago, we have rewritten some parts of the James Dean article. I hope it is O.K. now. Dean's bisexuality is an important topic, as it deeply influenced his Hollywood career and it is undisputed that he was, and still is, a gay icon. Other users may contribute additional material to the other sections. They are still unsourced. There is much to be done. Onefortyone 23:37, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

List of bisexual people

Your edits to List of bisexual people are appreciated, but please note that per Wikipedia's reliable sources policy, wiki sites can't be considered reliable sources, including Wikipedia itself. If a certain fact appears in more than one article/list, it's far better to copy/paste the references for that fact into both articles than to link to one article from another (as a source). Regarding James Dean's orientation, it is clearly controversial and as such I believe it fits better under the "Disputed" header in the list, as with any historical figure whose biographers are divided on the question (Eleanor Roosevelt, Alexander the Great etc.). Thanks. LeaHazel : talk : contribs 13:44, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your information. However, I do not think that James Dean's sexual orientation is still controversial, as most Dean biographies and several modern gender studies published by university presses extensively deal with his bisexuality and his long-time friend William Bast has now admitted that they had a homosexual relationship. Onefortyone 14:33, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Re your repeated insistence on prominently inserting the "Brando Unzipped" gossip about Brando having had an affair with Dean, I suggest you square this "information" with (1) the facts of Brando's life as chronicled in the wikipedia article on Brando, and (2) the documented eyewitness, first-person accounts of Dean's relationship to Brando, especially Dean's lasting awe of Brando and Brando's condescension toward Dean as reported by Kazan, Bast, and others, attitudes which don't remotely resemble those of a pair of ex-lovers. If you still feel this piece of "information" must be included just because it's been printed, I suggest you stick it somewhere at the end of the article under a new heading of "Unsubstantiated Gossip." I support your effort to keep the facts about Dean's bisexuality central, but citing books like "Brando Unzipped" only provides ammunition for those who would make Dean out to have been maligned by the gay lobby.KitMarlowe2 05:27, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I have now included the said passage in the sexuality section, saying "It has also been claimed..." I hope this is satisfactory to you. Onefortyone 15:05, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Better. However, I still think it's misinformation. I think Dean might have *wished* to have had a sexual involvement (involvement of any kind, for that matter) with Brando, but I think the probability of one actually having occurred is vanishingly miniscule. And a relationship like this would have almost certainly been hinted at or shared with Bast, who would certainly have mentioned it in his recent memoir. Dean went out of his way to clarify his relationship with Simmons to Bast because of the rumors and innuendos floating around. Dean would have been proud to call Brando his lover, let alone friend, or even nodding acquaintence, which even though Ella Logan apparently contrived to to get them together, Dean never, ever did...KitMarlowe2 22:57, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Blocked

Blocked: 24 hours for edit warring on Randolph Scott. Although you may not have violated the letter of the 3 revert rule, Edit warring is prohibited anyway, and you have something like 9 reverts in the past week. Thatcher131 02:42, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Banned

Under the terms of your Probation I am banning you from the articles Randolph Scott (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Elvis Presley (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and Nick Adams (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) for a period of two months. You may make suggestions on the talk pages. You have been edit warring at Randolph Scott. Your conduct on Elvis Presley and Nick Adams has been disruptive, for example this edit is almost a complete reversion across 14 good faith edits by other editors; similarly this edit is an almost complete reversion across 10 other edits. In the future, please use the dispute resolution process such as request for comment or third opinion rather than edit warring and reverting. Thatcher131 02:57, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I am in the process of responding to your message on my talk page. In the mean time, did Lochdale ever inadvertently expose his IP, such as editing while logged out and then logging in and signing? Thatcher131 23:51, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I have lifted your bans. Everyone you were edit warring with was a sockpuppet of Joey Joe Joe Junior Shabadoo (talk · contribs), except Monkeyzpop on Randolph Scott, who is not a sockpuppet. I'm certainly prepared to reinstate the ban at Randolph Scott if you and Monkeyzpop can't work out your disagreement on the talk page. And in general, reverting across multiple revisions to restore your preferred content is a bad thing to do, even if you suspect the other editor is up to no good. Edits should be discussed on the talk page, and there are many ways of getting attention to a content dispute, such as contacting the various biography and celebrity wikiprojects, RFC and third opinion. Reasonable people may differ on whether even well-sourced information belongs in an article, and that is a matter for discussion and consensus, not edit warring. Thatcher131 00:25, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Your continued editing patterns

Dear Onefortyone: Hello there. My attention has recently been drawn to your editing on articles such as Nick Adams (and the other articles listed above). You and I have conversed at great length in the past, and I have advised you very specifically that material such as unsupported inferences across multiple sources (that is, original research built out of multiple references) and material relating to individuals' private lives does not belong in Wikipedia biographies. I have given you this advice multiple times, and I feel I do not need to remind you of this, as I suspect you are, by now, perfectly aware of the matter after having been told many times by myself and other administrators. I admit that as a consequence I am rapidly losing patience with you. The Onefortyone Arbitration case specifically refers to your use of sources to support original research, and inclusion of material on celebrities you consider to be gay; and it also includes the remedy that you may be banned from articles in the event of disruption, as you will know from the recent banning and unbanning undertaken just prior to this message.

I am, as a consequence, telling you for the final time to cease behaviour of inserting tenuous information about Elvis Presley's sex life. This information does not belong on Wikipedia, and more importantly, original research disguised by a veneer of references is also not worthy of encyclopaedic inclusion. Furthermore, I cannot tolerate your periodical edit skirmishes with users, regardless of who those users are or whether they are sockpuppets. As a consequence, should you continue this behaviour, I am left with no other alternative than to implement the following ban as per the Arbcom ruling:

Should you continue the behaviour mentioned above from now on, either in my judgement or that of another administrator, you will be banned from all articles on the topic of, or relating to, Elvis Presley and his associates. This ban will persist for a period of one month; violation of this ban will lead to blocks from editing Wikipedia in increasing severity. Once the ban has expired, future continuation of this behaviour may lead to a further article editing ban and, should you continue, ultimately a community block from editing Wikipedia under "Users who exhaust the community's patience" in WP:BP.

I sincerely regret having to take such action, as I would have hoped it would not come to this. However, as it stands, you leave me with little option other than to do so. Please take this as an opportunity to contribute in a sensible manner to these articles, and consider this your final warning. Thank you very much. Yours sincerely, --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) 21:43, 4 May 2007 (UTC)