Wikipedia talk:WikiProject The Beatles

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Templates and John Cardinal

If anyone is interested User:John Cardinal has created some alternative templates on his userpage. Whilst I have no problem with current templates his seem logical and clear, and it may give the project a slightly different look to other similar subjects (whether this is good or bad, I have no opinion). LessHeard vanU 11:36, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I have looked at them, and they look great - very easy to read, and logical. andreasegde 16:10, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Not bad, but I'm not too keen on the Studio Albums section. I've tried an alteration but it didn't help much. There's too much white space for my liking. Perhaps a list seperated by middots would be better, with the removal/merger of the Past Masters section too? I just think that part of the template is too large. --kingboyk 16:23, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Anything that gets away from a pile up of centered text seems an improvement to me! Nice work John and thanks! ++Lar: t/c 16:39, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

kingboyk: There is a lot of white space in the studio albums part. One of my goals was to make vertical lists, and given many wikipedia users won't have large monitors, I tried to minimize the amount of horizontal text without making the navbox to tall. I have some ideas about what to do, but no good ones! :-) John Cardinal 05:07, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes you have, you fibber :) andreasegde 20:52, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

The life of, err... Brian

As Brian Epstein is almost ready for GA, it would be nice if editors would scan it and look for anything untoward, blatantly silly, or just gramatically hopeless. That dick with the girl's name 21:27, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Brian is now up for a GA, and if he doesn't get one, I will eat the hat of any concerned editor (with curry sauce and mushy peas, of course...) "Urgghh", say them blokes from "darn sarf" and across the pond... A person with very strange ideas about food 20:48, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Joe Orton

First I knew of this man, or of the great Gary Oldman, was when I watched Prick Up Your Ears a good few years ago now. I happened to be looking at the article just recently because I was trying to explain to someone from the USA who Kenneth Williams was! One thing leads to another, six degrees of separation and all that! This bloody wiki is addictive! Anyway - I tagged Orton's article and that of his rejected play.. I was surprised they weren't alreayd tagged tbh. -- Mal 20:46, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Mal, you should have used that as a quiz question! What a wasted opportunity :(

Seriously though, I've never heard of him, and the article doesn't scream out "Beatles" to me. I don't think he's within scope. I might be wrong - it has been known! --kingboyk 20:52, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Disgusted

I came back here to see when Brian Epstein would be granted a GA. It has not, because nobody could be bothered to to fix the little problems that were raised by the reviewer. This is disgusting, and confirms my belief that The Beatles project is nothing more than a bunch of loud-mouthed pedantic control freaks who can not be bothered to carry out the simplest of tasks, but prefer to write reams and reams of self-important drivel about their own opinions. You should all hang your heads in shame. andreasegde 18:26, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah! What he said! :P --Mal 22:30, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Backmasking

I'd appreciate it if someone who's knowledgeable about the Beatles could check my writing at Backmasking#Development of backmasking, as I've pulled the information together from various sources and want to be sure it's correct. Λυδαcιτγ 05:42, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

List of Beatles songs

Hey all,

I have done a review the the List of Beatles songs and List of Beatles songs by singer pages, to find there seems to be some missing songs and some that I don't think belong. I am no expert however, and I would appreciate members of this WikiProject checking the relevant talk pages to agree/disagree and then someone can make the change(s). I also have a list of which of the songs in these lists are from non-core releases, such as Anthology and Live at the BBC - should this information be added?

Cheers, Stu 10:07, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

A statement

As I am not a member of The Beatles' project, I see no reason to abide by its policy rules, as it does not represent Wikipedia as a whole, but insists on enforcing its own self-determined policy on contributors. I truly believe that this is dictatorial, and does not have anything to do with the true purpose of Wikipedia. The Beatles' project is a break-away group, and should be reminded of what Wikipedia really is. andreasegde 18:03, 22 April 2007 (UTC

I agree 100% with the above statement. Vera, Chuck & Dave 18:46, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

You're only saying that because, it would seem, you lost the argument. The difficulty I have is that I agree with you that the policy is wrong. Are there any active contributors to Beatles articles (as opposed to outside forces) who think "the Beatles" is correct? --kingboyk 18:52, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

We didn't lose the argument, because that would imply that we are being childish (which is not the case) but we are standing up for something that we believe to be right. As for losing arguments, we believe that the argument should not have arisen in the first place, and is a waste of valuable time. The Beatles' policy does not correspond to Wikipedia as a whole, and that is the central problem. This is not some individual project that can define by itself what Wikipedia should be. That is elitist and antagonistic. andreasegde 19:00, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I repeat, you didn't seem to hold that view when the policy was one agreed with you and when you were an active member. The policy was introduced 1) to encourage consistency, and 2) because people outside the project were insisting on "the Beatles". Now that the policy says the same as the MoS ("the Beatles"), we don't need it. As such, I've zapped it, and encourage folks to use whichever form they prefer, or to adide by the Wikipedia MoS, which ever they prefer. --kingboyk 19:06, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I never even knew about it! Nobody asked me if I agreed with it, because it was in place before I knew. I have talked too much about this, and I stand by my statement that I will ignore the policy, as I would much prefer to get articles to GA/FA. If anybody wishes to block me for that I would suggest an old English phrase: "Cutting off your nose to spite your face". andreasegde 19:13, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Style guidelines are generally considered just that, guidelines. Ignoring them is rarely a case for blocking, unless there's clear intent to be disruptive. I certainly won't be blocking anybody over it, which ever form they use. As you say, there's rather more important work to be done - work you do very well - like adding citations! --kingboyk 19:15, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

BTW, if we don't have any active members we may as well tag the project as {{historical}} or {{inactive}}. --kingboyk 18:54, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

You know this as well as I do, Kingboyk, because to waste so much time over an uppercase/lowercase 'T' is infinitely silly. The conversation should be about how many articles are GA or FA, and what can be done to improve that situation. (You and I can absolve ourselves from that, as you know). I see no real effort being made to improve articles (as much as I would dearly like to see them) but just a lot of talk about the The. andreasegde 19:05, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Of course it's silly, which is why I haven't contributed to the policy talk page since 6 June 2006!!!! --kingboyk 19:09, 22 April 2007 (UTC) (e/c)

I agree, and sympathise. andreasegde 19:14, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

The Beatles WikiProject does not have any active members as some who were contributing under that banner left when it became apparent that the Project was unable to sustain any policy. If those who did not agree with recent changes had agreed to abide by policy while finding arguments to counter the changes then there might still be a viable Project. Everything was done by both Wikipedia guidelines, and under the practices already established within the Project.LessHeard vanU 21:55, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, so I think everyone here agrees. Even if they don't, often the two can be used interchangably; let's move forward. Can we get this project going again, now that the dust has settled? (For completeness, I added an expert opinion to the Policy talk page.) … What about sorting out those lists I mentioned above? Stu 10:26, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I think somebody, or anybody at all, should "throw their hat in the ring" and start claiming how many GA articles they have seriously contributed to. Over the past few months (I know this sounds arrogant, but it's not meant to be) I have worked on getting, and reaching, a GA status for Freddie Lennon, Julia Lennon, Mimi Smith (now up for FA) Mal Evans, and Neil Aspinall. I previously took Paul McCartney (with lots of help from concerned editors, and which was a monster task) to GA, although it failed FA mostly because of its size. Brian Epstein is up for GA (and he will get it, without a doubt.)

This will sound totally over the top, but can anybody beat that? I sincerely hope that someone wants to, because that will make me very happy. The only reason we are here is to improve articles. I lay down the challenge... andreasegde 01:19, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I was asked to join the Beatles project after writing some suggestions on the talkpage. I commented that I wasn't in possession of any books other than "Shout!", and wasn't that familiar or keen on adding citations and stuff; that all I was good for was checking spelling and grammar, asking sensible questions, and doing administration stuff. I was told that that was what the Project needed, a backroom boy. So I devoted myself to that job, I got involved in the first Newsletter (and finished up doing more than a third single handed), I took part in discussions and more than once acted as peacemaker/go-between editors, I fostered (in the absence of the founding Project admins) the Project ethos and kept the bastard ship on course, I encouraged new editors (and found one or two along the way), got involved in some heated debates and used my growing experience of Wikipedia to mediate and find ways that editors could work together.

I know it sounds arrogant, but who else worked as hard on and dedicated themselves to the Project (allowing other people to do their stuff on individual articles)? Who else cared? The answer is obvious, because it has now been decided that the project doesn't need policies... but guidelines. LessHeard vanU 12:48, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Your contributions are and would be welcomed, of course.

We don't need policies for exactly this reason: we can't agree on them. Besides, a small WikiProject probably shouldn't be in the business of making policies anyway. I was probably wrong to even try it in the first place, but live and learn. Perhaps I should send it to WP:MFD? I'm quite sure the wider community would support deletion.

Now, can't we all try and get along, and focus on whatever we do best? (Me: bossing people about; you: doing useful admin and copyediting and other background work; Andrew: spreading the citations mantra; Lar: making the tea ;)) --kingboyk 13:07, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Eh? I don't even drink the stuff, much less make it. At least not since I was told I was putting the milk in at the wrong time. ++Lar: t/c 01:45, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Since members and former members are re-hashing their positions here, I will pipe in with something that has not been discussed in the latest attempt to get the project back on track. The issue for me, and perhaps a few others, was not about the/The. I said that repeatedly. My dissatisfaction was about process. A few editors who did not agree with the policy preference for "the" decided to change it without following any process. If that is allowed to happen, then IMO there is no project whether it's marked active or inactive. I heard Jimbo Wales on the radio yesterday and one of the things he stressed was that Wikipedia had processes for dealing with difficult/divisive situations. If this project has no policies—a well-intentioned decision, but decided by one person—then the value is reduced. There will still be value: it's a place to coordinate editing activities, and perhaps there are other useful reasons for the project to exist. Personally, I think there is a lot to be said for setting policies so that articles are consistent, and right or wrong, that's a hot-button for me. Maybe guidelines are enough, and so without policies, I could come back again when the atmosphere was more inclusive, positive and fun. Without process, though, there's no reason to come back. John Cardinal 00:32, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Rock. Hard place. I just want people to get along. The Wikipedia Manual of Style isn't policy, why should we have policy on the same issues? I was wrong to create the policy page in the first place, I've recognised it, and attempted to undo my mistake. If folks want to challenge my decision, they can revert and discuss. That's the process. That's how Wikipedia works. And, if somebody does revert me and it's challenged (which I will), we send the page to WP:MFD. Now, tell me, what more can I do than that?

Also, don't we have more important things to be working on, like writing featured articles? --kingboyk 00:49, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

IMO, getting some important articles to FA status does not require a project. There are a lot of FA articles and most don't belong to projects as far as I can tell. Getting an article to FA seems to require a dedicated editor, or maybe two, who care about an article enough to focus on it for a week or two to the exclusion of most everything else. In contrast, I think it does take a project to improve the quality of a large group of articles, such as the 250+ articles that are related to the Beatles. (Seen any song articles lately? Most of them are an f-ing mess with no citations and full of fancruft and errors.) Improving a lot of articles takes a coordinated effort by a group of editors. It takes communication, education, motivation, prioritization, some standards or guidelines... it requires a project. Participating editors will want to take part in decisions, know what has been decided, etc. That takes process. If I am off-track about all that, then I ask, what is the purpose of the project? (And that's a serious, actual question, not a rhetorical one.) John Cardinal 02:56, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Damned if I do, damned if I don't. All I know is that the project was achieving f*ck all and members were dropping like flies. If you think you can do a better job, take over.

Also, I repeat: the Wikipedia Manual of Style is not policy. It is a guideline. Why, then, should we have policy on style?

Policy is decided by consensus. We don't have consensus. The policy was changed from "The" without consensus AFAIC.

I'm not going to argue about this, you can all put up or shut up: if somebody else thinks they can do a better job with this issue, at bringing back members, and getting some decent articles written then please do take over. I do this work because nobody else does, not because I particularly want to. --kingboyk 11:02, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

<-- To answer your question, "what is the purpose of the project?":

• The project was originally formed in response to an AFD nomination for an obscure "lost" song from the Get Back sessions. The goals as envisaged at the time were to reduce cruft, clean up the articles about the group, and establish some guidelines about notability, article presentation and so on. This was at a time when WikiProjects still claimed "this article is part of..." rather than "this article in within the scope of...", and most of it never happened anyway. We managed to attract a lot of people signing up, and some good came of it, but the original goals were never really met.
• Over time, the role of WikiProjects, including this one, has changed. Article assessment has become a primary function, and the principle job we've done is assessing all 600 or so articles (although, as it happens, I did most of the assessing myself, over the course of a few days full time work). The other primary function has been to provide a central meeting point (and, to an extent, rightly or wrongly, a social venue) for people interested in working on Beatles-related articles.
• Beyond that, it's hard to say what the project has achieved; the hard answer is probably "not a lot", one reason why I wasn't unhappy at the alternative idea of abandoning it.
• As for what the purpose of the project is going forward, that's for you - the membership - to decide, within the confines of what the wider community consider to be an acceptable role for a WikiProject. I personally think the focus should be on improving Beatles-related articles to GA or FA standard. If I'm in a minority, and folks think the real purpose should be debating the vs The ad infinitum then so be it, but you'll be doing it without me and I daresay without a few others too.

--kingboyk 11:24, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the answer about the history and purpose of the project. I am not sure what elicited your "Damned if I do, damned if I don't" response above; I am not interested in debating the/The. I don't think I am helping in putting this project back together and so I will bow out. Please remember, though, that when people left in March, most did so in response to the lack of process for the overnight change, and not because the change was from "the" to "The". John Cardinal 12:04, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I meant by that, whatever approach I've tried ("hey folks, let's not worry about the/The", "no? then let's change it back to The Beatles", "OK, let's abandon it altogether") somebody is unhappy :)

Thanks for pointing out about the unhappiness around the process of the change. I wasn't around much at the time so didn't know that. --kingboyk 12:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Do we have enough members to carry on?

I've just trimmed the active participants list, and it looks like we still have a reasonable number of active editors. It's just that many of them don't show up round these pages, which is totally cool.

Do we have enough members to carry on, or should we discuss tagging the project as {{inactive}}? --kingboyk 16:50, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

If you have two people who are agreed to work together on a(n) (group of) article(s), then you have the basis of a Project. If those two or few do form a Project (or maintain) a Project then they are likely to find other people joining in. From those editors who put their name down you will likely get a couple who will stick with it and start really contributing. In the event that some of the originals go missing (or simply reduce their presence) then there is a pool which can alleviate the loss.

Folding the Project will not allow this to happen. Stick with it, it is the less of two evils. LessHeard vanU 19:00, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I suppose so. Andrew and I are currently working on Mimi Smith, that's a WikiProject right there by your rationale :) I can't promise to always be here and active on such things though, I have several KLF-related articles which are close to FAC standard and owe it to myself to get them finished and promoted. I also owe it to myself to try and earn some money!!! :( Erm... I digress... right, anyway, we have some basis for a project at least. Anyone else wish to comment? --kingboyk 19:07, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

From my perspective, this has been a pretty unsatisfactory experience. It happens that some of my very first edits on W'pedia were about the t issue (in early January). Although it was clear that the past discussions of the issue hadn't been uniformly civil, I nonetheless took a leap of faith and jumped in, hoping that calm, reasoned debate, unencumbered by ad hominem attacks and childish retorts, would ultimately prevail. And for a while it seemed that under LessHeard's capable guiding hand the process (yes, John Cardinal, the process) was taking us to a reasonable, reasoned, objectively supported position. Accordingly I spent many hours -- apparently alone, which troubled me, given all the heat some of my fellow lowercase supporters created -- implementing the policy and re-implementing the policy over and over in some cases. Note that I never once lowercased a t before the change in policy -- I followed the thing through, actually uppercasing some ts when that was the policy. And now it's come to this -- a whole lot of yelling and screaming and foot stomping and finally everyone's (predictably) sick of the issue and so apparently we're done talking about it -- there is no policy, which I suspect means that they will all eventually be Big T anyway because that's what the majority seem to want in any case, just as the majority (of English speakers) seem to want to eliminate the word "lie" (as in "recline") and replace it with "lay" -- doesn't make it right, but usage tends to prevail ultimately. I had hoped for better. Sucks. McTavidge 02:16, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

"Lay" always takes an object - you lay down the wrench. If a person is becoming horizontal, he, or she lies down. To complicate matters, the past tense of "lie" is also "lay" -- So "John lay himself down" in the past. But the past tense of "lay" is "laid" -- So "John laid down the wrench" when he was done fixing the sentence. [Dictionary] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Andreasegde (talk • contribs). [1]

We argued about it before the current batch of advocates arrived, and reached a decision not just on a majority but on a consensus based on argument that it was "The".

The whole point of having the policy was to bring consistency, and to avoid arguments. Then, when I was away, a few folks come and change it and we hemorrhage about half our active membership. Smart? I think not. --kingboyk 11:06, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Did you really think I was asking for a grammar lesson (lie versus lay)? I was making an observation about the (deplorable) state of the language, not wondering aloud which was right. McTavidge 15:40, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

That wasn't me wrote that. I'll check the page history and tag is at as unsigned. --kingboyk 15:43, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

The Project did not lose any members over changing big T to little t. The Project lost them (me included) when some big T proponents changed the policy back without the consultation, discussion, and examples/evidence that I had insisted that little t proponents provide before I made the decision to change policy. LessHeard vanU 12:59, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

the page's history doesn't bear that out. Nobody has edited that section since you, until I blanked the entire page. --kingboyk 13:05, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

You need to look at the talkpage as well as the Policy page. This is the history, supported by diffs;

Dec 06 Newsletter notification of discussion

Jan 07 Newsletter request for comments

LessHeard vanU amends policy following debate and requests for comment in Newsletters 009 and 010 dd 10.02.07 Diff

Feb 07 Newsletter announcement sent out 14.03.07

Vera, Chuck & Dave left 03:39 16.02.07 Diff (rejoined 10:09 instant Diff)

Andreasegde re-opens debate regarding t/T 16.03.07 Diff

Andreasegde unilaterally declares intention to change policy back to T. 17.03.07

Diff

John Cardinal comment on above 17.03.07

Diff

McTavidge comment 17.03.07

Diff

LessHeard vanU comment 17.03.07 Diff

LessHeard vanU left 17.03.07 Diff

Lukobe comment re policy change back to T 19.03.07 Diff

Lukobe left 19.03.07 Diff

John Cardinal left 20.03.07 Diff

Vera, Chuck & Dave left 30.03.07 Diff

Vera, Chuck & Dave return 23.04.07

Diff

Obviously Andreasegde didn't proceed to make big T policy, but I and others already left over the matter. I would also point out that the above is the bare bones, and I am only including that which establishes the timeframe. I re-iterate, nobody left because the capitalisation of The was changed to lowercase. People left when procedure was subsequently ignored. LessHeard vanU 20:38, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I see. I'm sorry to hear that. As stated above, I stopped following the debate on policy talk long ago, when it started going round in circles. It looks like Andrew made a fuss but didn't actually change the policy page. That's allowed.

Given all the kerfuffle, don't you think that removing the policy page is the best way to proceed? (Please comment at the MFD either way, btw). If you were me (the person who started the policy page and feels obliged to clean up the mess) what would you do? I have people I respect unable to reconcile their differences and it seemed and seems to me that the best solution is to zap the page that's caused the problems. --kingboyk 20:47, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I am not you... but if I had recourse to your buttons I would have kept lowercase policy and blocked all dissenters. I would then have tried to find an authority for capitalising the T, upon finding it changed policy again and blocked the other dissenters. Then I would WP:OWNed the Project. Anybody I really didn't like would be required to do the Newsletter. I trust this helps. LessHeard vanU 22:06, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes it does. Or, I could just click on this link and press a button: Special:Blockip/LessHeard_vanU :P --kingboyk 22:16, 26 April 2007 (UTC) (only joking!)

Oh, I thought the only reason you didn't comment at my RfA was cos the support was so huge you would have looked a right chump... LessHeard vanU 22:23, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/LessHeard vanU? Looks empty for now... when it's turning blue? --kingboyk 22:25, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

T'aint, yet. Editorship allows me the freedom to choose how I contribute, the responsibilities of Admin may restrain me. LessHeard vanU 22:38, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

You want deplorable? how's this: The Beatles. Double album by "the" Beatles! Vera, Chuck & Dave 16:07, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I hate to read about two great people (LessHeard vanU and Kingboyk) arguing about something that I am the cause of. Please don't do it guys, because it hurts (me personally, you, as well as many others). I fully accept that I disturbed the status quo, but I did it with the best of intentions. I never intended to hurt anyone at all, but merely wished to reflect the views of other people that disagreed with a policy that was purely exclusive to members of this project. I have read through the whole of the last year's edits on the policy page, and it made interesting reading. I suggest other users do the same, when you have some time to spare.

I actually agree with the small 't' when it relates to the individual Beatles. Lukobe, McTavidge and others are totally right about that, but not when it relates to the "product" or The Band as a whole.

I apologise for causing any bad feeling between anybody (and no, this is not a preamble to me saying I will stop working on this project, because I certainly will not) but I hate to read about great people arguing with each other. All I can say is that Mimi Smith is going through an FA process (and it's looking good so far) which is the biggest laugh/joke of all. Mimi gets the last laugh over all of us. She always hated John's music... :)

Hate me if you want, but I truly believe in working together in a friendly way, and I hope you do too. Peace and love.andreasegde 21:59, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

It's alright. We just had a little chuckle on my talk page. I'm certainly not taking things personally.

Damn, though, too much wikistress and meta business. I should be giving Mimi's article another check over and working on nearly-FA stuff like K Foundation! :( --kingboyk 22:07, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Hey, no problem! You are a great editor, and person. I like you, and forgive you your faults think you do great stuff for the project (along with others). Like Steve said, get over to FDM (that's Female Dominatrix/Masochism) and comment. LessHeard vanU 22:18, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

It's MFD actually, but FDM will do between friends! --kingboyk 22:19, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I am beginning to wonder about you two. "Female Dominatrix/Masochism"? "Do we have enough members to carry on?" It sounds like some kind of suburban wife-swap. Uhh-err, Missus, I need a cuppa tea. andreasegde 21:42, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

April newsletter - final call

If you have any stories for the April newsletter or can help with copyediting, please head to Wikipedia:WikiProject The Beatles/Outreach/Newsletter/Issue 012. Final call! Thanks. --kingboyk 17:00, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Behind the scenes

I am angry at discovering certain comments by an editor that falsely accuses me of saying "I won". That is absolute shite, and a classic case of misquoting my comment, and/or reading something into it that was not there. The editor concerned knows who he is, so I will not mention his name.

To put the record straight, I actually said, "...I will drink a pint to you, and salute you. We not only pulled a pint, we pulled it off. Have one on me... The thing about 'The thing' is over, at last. I'm so happy I could buy a round. Cheers, La." (meaning that there was an end to the whole mess, and I could get back to working on articles).The full message is here...

Is that all the concerned editor could find to incriminate me? Oh, how he must have searched... I despair. I seriously doubt that an apology will be forthcoming, but one can only live in hope. andreasegde 21:01, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

The editor in question can speak for himself, but I think it's worth noting that his post included a link to the actual comments so people could easily read the post in question and draw their own conclusions. For what it's worth, I interpreted it as he did, the "We pulled it off" part in particular. John Cardinal 21:53, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Water under the bridge. Please, let's draw a line under this and get back to work. (Don't reply to this unless you disagree, please). --kingboyk 22:25, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree. "Thanks Athens: you pulled it off…. So it was in Athens, which for a fortnight managed, at least temporarily, to distract the people of the world from their worries, possibly even their politics, their wars, their natural disasters." Thanks Athens: you pulled it off andreasegde 22:47, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

The reason we are here

The status board: I find a certain pleasure can be gained from this. Cynthia Lennon is next, and then Astrid Kirchherr. andreasegde 00:58, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Bass that should not be there

If you look at the photo of Sutcliffe and Harrison on the Stuart Sutcliffe page, you will see a left-handed Hofner bass by Sutcliffes's leg, on the left. How is that possible when Macca started playing bass after Sutcliffe left?? Something is amiss here, methinks...andreasegde 14:40, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

According to Lewisohn and other sources, Stu occasionally sat in with the group after Paul took over on bass. Paul's bass would have been strung left-handed and therefore useless for Stu; it stands to reason that when Stu sat in, he brought his own bass. Raymond Arritt 22:24, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Very strange. Bill Harry says that Stu left the group in December 1961 and he stayed in Hamburg. Harry then says that Stu played some further gigs with them when they returned, but he says that happened in "March 1961" [my emphasis]. Perhaps that's an error, and should be 1962. In any case, if Stuart sat in after McCartney started playing bass, that could explain the presence of the Hofner... John Cardinal 22:45, 6 May 2007 (UTC)