Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Poland

Welcome to the Poland-related notice board!

This talk page is automatically archived by Werdnabot. Any sections older than 14 days are automatically archived to Portal talk:Poland/Poland-related Wikipedia notice board/Archive 8. Sections without timestamps are not archived.

Please add new comments in new sections if you are addressing a new issue. Thanks in advance.

Userboxes

Please note we have 2 functioning userboxes:

{{User WikiProject Poland}}

This user is a member of the WikiProject Poland.

{{User WPMILHIST Polish military history task force}}

File:PB Poland CoA.png

This user is a member of the Polish military history task force of the Military history WikiProject.

Evil Poles

Time of Troubles - some POVs are more equal than other ones.Xx236 14:46, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, that's just a good example of article based on 1911 Britannica and 19th century Russian historians. I tagged it with 1911 pov; at some point it will be rewritten and updated. Quite a few Polish history articles are in similar condition, too...if you find something like this, tag it and move on.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  15:45, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, canvassing, how nice... <_< -- Grafikm ^(AutoGRAF) 17:47, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Please keep your bad faith comments to yourself. Thank you, -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  18:12, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Piotrus, people are tired of your lecturing. Honest. It does not earn you any points. Please do not respond with a new barrage. Thank you. --Irpen 19:55, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Your incivility and attempts to censor other users are what is not welcomed here. Please take my advice to Grafikm to yourself too and keep such mean-spirited comments off wiki: discuss articles, not editors, per WP:NPA.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  20:02, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I As you can see from above, almost knew it. :( Too bad... --Irpen 20:05, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I am glad this prompted me to read the corresponding chapters of the American historian George Vernadsky. I will sure expand the article. --Irpen 19:53, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Why the old Russian-American George Vernadsky? There is his younger follower Lev Gumilev.Xx236 09:04, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Bronisław Geremek

If someone could perhaps translate the pl.wiki section on his current troubles, I would appreciate it. Here's an opinion piece on it. Let me also say that I commend Poland's efforts in this area. No one who had links to the communist power structure has any business participating in politics today. Would that the rest of Europe had people like the Kaczyński brothers and Roman Giertych running it. Biruitorul 08:00, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Ummm... yes to the first part, no to the second one :) Think in terms of 'collateral damage' :D -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:32, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

"Polish Cathedral' style nominated for Deletion

The Page Polish Cathedral style has been nominated to be deleted. Please vote on this issue.

Added to Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Poland; please see other discussions there and vote on them too.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  16:29, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Warsaw Uprising FAR

Warsaw Uprising has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. LuciferMorgan 15:22, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Do we need 2 Warsaw stubs?

We have {{warsaw-geo-stub}} and {{warsaw-stub}}. I believe one is enough... -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  04:38, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Polish Football 1919-1939

Should anyone want to help me expand the article I've just started, I would be grateful http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Level_Football_Leagues_in_Interwar_Poland

greets Tymek 21:54, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

PL-UA cooperation proposal

Euro 2012

I propose all interested editors to join the authorities of our countries in this cooperative project. I hope there is a sufficient degree of interest and good will about at least this (yet) non-controversial topic if we can't do it all over WP. The Euro 2012 could be made a GA or, perhaps, an FA, and maintained such with our mutual attention and effort. Please help keeping this article cleaned up, help developing it and let's make sure the nationalism of any side can be kept in check while we work on this.

Football is one of the issues which strongly unite my country despite a host of issues that divide it. Let's hope that this topic can unite some Wikipedians divided over other articles.

Volunteers welcome? --Irpen 22:06, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Support. This is an important article, and getting it to a GA/FA status is needed. —dima/talk/ 00:25, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Great idea. Let me also suggest that we should work to improve other articles related to this one. Just to give one example, the infrastructure now being built to support Euro 2012 should be described. And here I have a request: having started the Autostrada A4 (Poland) article about what must be one of the most important motorways for the event in Poland, I would like to see an article about the Ukrainian motorway it will connect to, the M10. Would any of you have the necessary information to get that article going? We could also use articles about other roads connecting the major venues in Ukraine. Balcer 01:52, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Or (even more related) Olimpiysky National Sports Complex I once destubbed for DYK. That the final will be held there won't hopefully enrage my colleagues :). BTW, with some inline refs it can easily be GAed. All info is from the refs provided. Inlining them is all it would take (plus native speakers' copyediting). --Irpen 01:57, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Support, but as football is not one of my strong areas I am afraid I cannot help much. But I will see about the 'fringe' areas like infrastructure in Poland (particulary Silesia).-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  05:10, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Armia Krajowa or Polish Home Army?

See Talk:Armia Krajowa#Armia Krajowa or Polish Home Army? for ongoing discussion.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  00:56, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Polish communist PD template nomimated for deletion on Commons

See Commons:Commons:Deletion requests/Template:PD-Polish.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  16:52, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Snowballing RfA

I propose that next time, the campaign is run to snowball someone's RfAdm, the person behind it has decency to post such calls here rather than run it exclusively by email/IM/IRC or whatever, thus, at least, doing this campaign in the open.

--Irpen 01:38, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Alex Bakharev 02:16, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

The support of an admin for the inclusion of this message by Irpen disturbs me. I removed it twice because it is clearly aimed to start off another round of pointless conflict. After all, it amounts to an open accusation against everyone involved on this noticeboard that they might be a person without any decency. How pathetic and sad. And I still have no idea what this is about. Can anyone explain this to me? I beg you. What was the specific wrongdoing, and who might have been involved? Balcer 02:20, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Balcer, the "wrongdoing" is the behind the scenes canvassing to snowball an RfA. Who exactly was involved we cannot be sure precisely because this was not done in the open. And this is what really disturbs me. I mean, if one does such a thing, why not at least stand up to that? --Irpen 02:27, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

You are right, we must get to the bottom of this. Shall I post this on the Russian, Ukrainian, German and Brazilian noticeboard to speed up the investigation? This indecent bastard might well be lurking there. I am being sarcastic of course, just to expose the ridiculousness of this whole exercise.

Let me put this succintly: what is your evidence that the wrongdoing is somehow specifically connected to the Polish Noticeboard? If you have no evidence, then I strongly urge you to remove this whole thread. Balcer 02:31, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I and Irpen meant Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Errabee. Sorry for not been absolutely clear. I think the proposal to do negative campaigning openly (if doing at all) is reasonable, obviously it applies to the both sides Alex Bakharev 02:44, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

What sides? The RfA in question got 31 oppose votes. Are they predominantly from Poland? Balcer 02:49, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

No, not predominantly. But many votes came from Polish corner of en-wiki (coincidence), being from users not exactly known for following RfA pages, (another coincidence) and there is lack of the onwiki communication that would explain such "fluctuation". --Irpen 02:56, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

If you have a list of users you think acted in bad faith, report them to an appropriate page or take this up on their talk pages. Using this noticeboard paints all users interested in Poland with a black brush. Do you really see no problem with that? Balcer 03:01, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

The primary question here is not about the users who voted. It is about whoever chose to send out these messages aimed a opposing the RfA who acted... should I say "improperly"? I think it is acceptable to campaign for someone, yes. I think it is acceptable in exceptional cases to even campaign against someone, just do that openly. --Irpen 03:12, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with all you say above. I just think that bringing these concerns here is highly inappropriate. Look, it is almost obvious that the person who did this is one of the people who voted "oppose". So, the reasonable thing to do would be to contact those people specifically and make your statement. The highly unreasonable thing is to make this statement here, effectively besmirching and wasting the time of all the users participating on this page. Balcer 03:22, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Let's see. How many members of this noticeboard took part in the voting? I count three based on list of members on the first page, but I will go easy on you and include "known Poles", which gives us five. Four of which voted oppose, one voted support (interesting, 20% cabal inefficiency? Neeed to work on that ;p). And those 4 votes snowballed 12% of the oppose vote. Huge... And the proof is that those four (five?) users apparently don't vote in RfA often and yet somewhow did it this time, right? Let me congratulate you on this research, could you present the statistical analysis (breakdown) of those user's activity in Wikipedia namespace, showing that they indeed rarely vote in RfA AND also show that they are exception (i.e. all other users who vote in RfA vote there much more often)? Also, please present correlations between voters in this RfA and membership on other projects / wiki-organizations, since I would like to see - due weight, you know - if cabals of any other kind may be responsible for snowballing this RfA one way or another. Finally, I can think of quite a few pages, in article and project space, that might have received attention from four or more 'Poles'; let me know if you need a list of such deviant behaviour before it is submited to Cabal Investigation Team. That said, please keep such stuff to cabal namespace; this noticeboard is not a place for it. PS. Alex, I never expected you to support such a bad faith witch hunt allegiation. PS2. meta:Poles are evil. And who said this was not real :) PS3. WP:AGF... -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  05:29, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I can run such "investigation" you are proposing. This would take time but doable. But are you sincere or you want me merely to spend time on this, just like you often tell me to find the diffs that you know are there? Can we find a simpler way to figure this out? Are you saying you are not aware of any email/IM/IRC campaign in question? My goal here is actually expressed in the top message. You used to post "problem articles", as you called them, in a special field until Balcer removed it. All I request is that if such campaigns are still being run, this is done openly. I am not even requesting their not being run... --Irpen 05:45, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

P. S. As for your invoking WP:AGF, I remember Geogre excellently putting it somewhere that AGF seems to be the most oft-cited and misused and poorly remembered but generously sprinkled argument in any dispute. I wonder how long ago you read this policy yourself. Do that.\! AGF is about edits (in the main space.) And secondly, AGF does not say "Be a fool." --Irpen 06:28, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I am confused. For months - if not years - you have been doing your best accusing members of this board and others of "canvassing" (to use your favourite phrase) and informing one another of various issues via wiki pages. Now you are saying you are ok with it?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  06:08, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I am saying that doing it off-wiki is worse because it adds hypocrisy. The same improper campaign is then run behind the curtain of propriety. But let's just settle it since the question above is rather direct despite it is not clear from your post whether you noticed it. So, I repeat: Are you saying you are not aware of any email/IM/IRC campaign in question? --Irpen 06:15, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Since this is Poland-related Wikipedia notice board, and this has now become a direct one-on-one discussion between you and Piotrus, would you be kind enough to move it to one of your talk pages? Thanks in advance. Balcer 06:56, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

All I am saying here is that you should apologize for the members of this noticeboard for you allegations. If you have something to ask me, there is my user talk page for that.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  07:03, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

There is no general offense here, Piotrus, to apologize for. I did not implicate the whole community in any way and those not involved have no reason to be offended. I brought the actions of someone in this community to the light of the rest. Maybe it would help the gullible folks who allowed themselves to be led last time to think better when (or if) such is repeated. As for having something to ask you, I asked twice already. I am not going to be asking for the third time. --Irpen 07:39, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Irpen, if I came to your neighbourhood and put up a big billboard sign saying: "A dirty rotten bastard lives here" with no indication or proof of who that might be, and then defended my action by saying "but of course I did not want to offend the whole neighbourhood, only that one rotten bastard who shall remain nameless", how believable would I be? Balcer 15:37, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

As the subject whose RfA is being discussed here, I am sorry to see that it has become another source of incident between Russian-related and Poland-related editors. I can understand Irpen's feelings, because I had noticed it as well. It is not the number that counts, but it was the timing that was a little conspicuous. Piotrus was the first from this board to oppose, on 3 May 05:59; Darwinek followed on 16:52, Halibutt 19:04, Lysy 20:02, Appleseed the next day on 2:45 and LUCPOL on 16:35. 5 days of silence, and suddenly 6 entries in a day and a half. Knowing Piotrus' preference for contacting people in person (which he himself has admitted above), this raised my eyebrows a little, but I never ever thought about protesting against it, as I trust each and everyone would make their own decision, and if that decision is negative for me, than so be it and they are absolutely free to do so.

Let me summarize by saying that I didn't care if Piotrus was sending off-wiki messages or not; if he did it would have been more gentlemanlike to do it on on-wiki, but I'm still okay with it.

Now as the subject of this discussion, I hope that the fact I don't mind if there has been off-wiki contacts about my RfA or not, will go a long way towards ending this issue. I certainly hold absolutely no grudge against the users of this noticeboard, whether they voted oppose or support (or didn't vote at all). Errabee 11:42, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, your mature response goes a long way to making me reconsider my vote down the line when you reapply for adminship. As for pattern voting, I wonder why for example 9+ editors known to me from Russian/Ukrainian noticeboards voted from 2 to 3 May, or what attracted Lithuanian wikproject users such as M.K. (first vote in RfA ever) or Dr. Dan (second). But I am not looking for any cabals, nor do I care what made them come there and vote: the vote is public and advertising for RfA is something I am pretty sure is within the rules (I saw it before and I don't mind it at all). The bigger campaign somebody can create - the better for him (her). And the same holds for opposition (it would be grossly unfair to allow only positive campaigning). Finally, with all this cabal stuff, a note to consider: people do edits following user contributions. I found your RfA following contribs of a user I know, and I would expect several people follow my edits and would thus follow my edits, too. Good luck next time, and once you address the issue I mentiond and Lysy (who supported you nonetheless... linked to), I think you may expect us to support you next time (I, for example, agree with your image stance :).-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  16:55, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

For the record I am not a member of the Lithuanian Wiki Project, athough all of its members are, I'm sure, delighted that you (and Halibutt) are two of its members. And I'm happy that you are keeping tabs on me and how I vote. This is very comforting. Since you are "an administrator open for recall", you'll be happy to know I'll be involved to help if you should offer yourself up for scrutiny and a new vote. Dr. Dan 23:58, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Piotrus, why don't you just say that you sent out these out of sight messages? Or that you did not. The question was asked above enough times already and your persistent not responding goes a long way towards the answer. Also, I can't believe that the diff Lysy linked to was his. Lysy does not spend enough time on WP to dig out the links from the remote past. Nor was he actively following the arbitration pages in the past...

To answer your question on what brought many of those supporters, firstly the announcement was made quite openly at the Russian board similarly to how the announcement of your ArbCom was made here not so long ago (and again I did not protest.) And as I said, campaigning to help someone is not the same as a campaign to derail someone, especially conducted out of sight.

It does not take a conspiracy theorist to conclude that someone sent out a bunch of messages with "Take a look at this RfA! This is the same candidate who made [diff this] post." Whoever sent out these messages with the link to Errabee's long time ago statement at the obscure (and rejected) ArbCom (and done so secretly) displayed a text-book example of ungentlemanly conduct, particularly when the author of the messages included the peculiar Lucpol into his subscription list. --Irpen 21:09, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

So this was all about Piotrus all along (why am I not suprised). In that case, why did you not post your concerns on User talk:Piotrus, instead of polluting this important talk page? What does Poland have to do with the beef that you have against Piotrus?

Or is this all about asking Piotrus leading questions on a highly visible page. Given your conduct, I do not believe you are entitled to any kind of an answer.

Just out of curiosity, could you please cite the Wikipedia guideline which defines what ungentlemanly conduct is? Surely, if you are hounding a respected user on highly visible public boards, there is some important Wikipedia rule that he has broken and which you can cite! If not, then what you are doing is simply unconscionable. Balcer 21:36, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Balcer, if I had been sure that "this is all about Piotrus all along" as you put it, I would not have taken it here indeed, but to his talk, as you suggest, or to his ongoing arbitration. However, taking it directly at one of the "Piotrus-only" related pages requires a more solid proof that it was Piotrus indeed. The proof is solid that someone has done it (as such "fluctuation" being without a direct reason is unconscionable).

As for your question on codifying the definition of the ungentlemanly conduct in the Wikipedia policy, I am afraid it is impossible and this is why it is not and will never be codified similarly to how the issues of ethics are not codified in any legal way in RL. People just know ethics (or they don't.)

Piotrus carefully avoided answering the question. It is up to users to draw the conclusions from, the facts presented and, perhaps, from this avoidance. As I said, I am not 100% sure and just a word here from whoever done it could clear this up to everyone's relief. --Irpen 18:12, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Snowballing RfA (section break)

I find this thread to be highly inappropriate on a Polish community bulletin board. It does Errabee a disservice even though he's no stranger to making accusations of votestacking toward editors of other nationalities [1]. I cannot hold it against Errabee that in his view Katyn massacre is "Low" on a Russian importance scale [2] and "High" on a Polish importance scale, since Errabee isn't Polish, but I don't like the thought that I might belong to "those groups … fighting nationalist POV" (to put it in his own words [3]). I also resent the attempts at laying guilt by association on any of the members of this Portal by his supporters. Choices we make individually during discussions are neither greater nor less valuable because of it. --Poeticbent  talk  19:07, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Poeticbent, with regards to votestacking: I assumed good faith first and simply mentioned he contacted 16 individual users with the danger of unbalancing the discussion. Only after another editor hinted at it, and the original editor continued contacting more individual users, I said it was close to votestacking, for which a case could certainly be made, since 19 of those 23 were of Turkish origin, which seems pretty unbalanced to me.

As for the Katyn massacre, let me make a parallel. I'm from the Netherlands, and the bombing of Rotterdam is still considered to be a very important event, as it was the event that caused us to surrender to Nazi Germany and thus marked the start of a 5-year occupation, that has caused deaths in almost all families. I lost my grandfather in the war. The results for Rotterdam last until today, as it is the only city in the Netherlands without a historic center. Nevertheless, I would still mark it as Low-importance for the Germany project, as the Netherlands were only occupied to provide a platform for the invasion of England. Now I understand that the Katyn massacre is very important for Poland, as the bombing of Rotterdam is to the Netherlands. But the Katyn massacre, how tragic it may be, is not that important for Russia, just as the bombing of Rotterdam isn't important to Germany. Errabee 20:56, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Poeticbent, It is not my goal here to do any service (or disservice) to Errabee who can do very well without my services. I affirm the Wikipedians' right to make individual choices. I find alarming not the fact that people made the (tendentiously) informed choices but someone's campaigning to derail an RfA secretly. Anyway, hopefully, enough is said indeed for people to draw sopme conclusions from this not so pleasant incident. --Irpen 21:09, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

And Poeticbent, regarding your belief that this discussion does not belong on a Polish community bulletin board, I have to disagree. There's nothing "holy" about this talk page, it's not the Ark of the Covenant, and all that has been stated here is something to think about. This is the purpose of the talk pages on WP (to iron out differences) and they are not the same as the project pages. Dr. Dan 03:29, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I am not that interested in the past but in the future. There is a slim chance that seven prominent Polish editors independently became suddenly interested in an obscure RfA of a user who almost never edited Poland-related articles but a few weeks ago once said something negative about nationalism. We can assume AGF and find it pure coincidence. Anyway nobody was persecuted for off-wiki communications. Now lets assume that in a couple of months a Polish editor who never edited Russia-related articles but once said something negative about say Russian nationalism would suddenly get a number of Russian related oppose !votes. Then... It is contra-productive and plainly looks ugly. We can all assume AGF and do nothing we can also have some agreement and eliminate or reduce the problem. I am not sure I fully understand what Irpen is proposing but if it is workable I would rather discuss the solution then try to stonewall the problem. Alex Bakharev 12:39, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Why seven editors, maybe could you list them. I see six that would qualify, and one of them voted in favour. 106 vote were cast in total, so the impact of these few votes was negligible.

Seriously, given that I am a participant of this board, should I from now on avoid all voting in RfA, or anxiously check before and after I vote whether other "Poles" voted, and if they have, write a detailed confession to justify the existence of any correlations that might result? Or maybe I should avoid voting if I see that even one "Pole" has already voted, as two "Poles" would already be suspicious. What is an acceptable number of "Poles" that can vote in anything before a detailed justfication must be provided for the "strange" correlation? Who decides which correlation is supicious and which one is not? I don't like where this is going. It looks more and more like an attempt to discourage a category of people from participating in voting altogether. Balcer 12:56, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Don't forget to volunteer logs of all your IRC/IMs/emails communications for review, as well as to be on the safe side, start recording yourself 24h/7 so it can be proven beyond doubt you were not "canvassing" in offline.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  15:42, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

You know, Alex, it is amusing that instead of dealing with the "editor who once said something ugly" you and Irpen are trying to silence editors that were offended. I have seen this with Irpen in the past and got used to it, but again I am disappointed seeing you following his suit. I can only hope that Errabee will discard such "defense", finally apologize for a comment he should have apologized back then in the first place and put this matter to rest (such an apology during RfA would have turned my vote to support, for example). But if you keep on accusing few members of this board as well as some others of cabalism here, don't expect to win any points. As far as I am concerned, this is EOT and I strongly recommend to all editors not to waste time on this off-topic thread here (and remember WP:DFTT (no, that doesn't mean you, Alex, everyone is entitled to a mistake every now and often)).-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  15:42, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

DFTT? Is this a personal attack? Please advise since you are an expert on those! But seriously, this is not about "defense of Errabee" who does not need any. This is about the revolting campaign to derail an RfA organized by someone along the secretive channels. Offended by his many months ago remark were not editors, otherwise they would have remembered such "offense". It was one editor who sent out these alerts with an obscure link thus inciting other users to oppose by invoking their national sensitivities.

BTW, Piotrus, did not you advocate publishing IRC logs? I am looking forward towards you publishing your part of the #en-admins, particularly on what the heck brought the channel's 24 hr regular David Gerard, who I never met before, to bash me at your Arbcom on the very next day after your joining the channel. You see, DG and myself have no common area to interact as I am spending time editing Wikipedia and he spends time chatting at IRC. Is it a coincidence that after your joining the IRC DG suddenly finds an obscure edit at the talk of the user who I advise to avoid revert warring with you? Also, derailing Errabee's RfA was widely discussed at the same channel as his run challenged the unencyclopedic position towards the fairuse that prevails among the channel's regulars. There may or may not be a direct cause and effect connection between the IRC discussion at the channel of Errabee's bid over the copyright issues and the alerting of several of the regulars of this board whose users don't share the IRC's copyright extremism. The users of this board are much more likely to take close to heart an obscure statement made many months ago about Polish nationalism in English Wikipedia. Someone provided them the and have done so secretly. This is what worries me most here. --Irpen 18:12, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Cracow or Kraków?

See discussion at NCGN.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  15:43, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Wilno

In Vilnius "Wilno" is qualified as a historical name. It's a contemporary name in a language of a considerable minority. Sejny contains Lithuanian name, so by analogy Vilnius should contain Wilno.Xx236 13:29, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Good point. Do raise it either at Talk:Vilnius or at WP:NCGN, however please read Wikipedia:WikiProject Lithuania/Conflict resolution for some background: there are some editors very much opposed to any compromise and inclusion of the word Wilno in Vilnius (and honestly, I have spend hours trying to convince them, and I am not sure if I want to waste my time on this issue again).-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:58, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I would leave it alone. Sure, a concerted action by Polish editors could force that name in there, but what would be the point? It will be so much more satisfying when in a few years the Lithuanian editors put it in there on their own initiative (in line with the trend of cities celebrating their multi-ethnic heritage, rather than glorifing the boring homogeneity exalted by obsolete nationalism). Balcer 18:14, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

One of these days Balcer... one of these days...bang!, zoom! articles celebrating multiculturalism such as Lithuanian annexion of Wilno of 1991 straight to the DYK.

Well said.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  19:20, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

You've got to be kidding. What will even be more satisfying is when this group here who tell us the the German speaking residents of Pomerania and Silesia were actually Poles, repatriated after WWI, acknowledge that a large component of the Polish speaking (and actually many trilingual speakers of the region, since many spoke fluent Russian too) inhabitants of the "Wilno" region from the same period, were Lithuanians. The great Lithuanian redeemer of Polish independence, Pilsudski, realized this fact when he issued his Proclamation to the inhabitants of the former Grand Duchy of Lithuania bilingually, after he tried to reunite the two nations again. Instead of it being irksome and denying it, you should pay homage to two of the greatest "Polish" leaders Jogaila and Pilsudski, and their heritage, and their contributions to Poland's positive history. Let's face it, up to now, after their contributions were supplanted by their succesors, the Vasas and the Rydz-Smiglys, there's not a lot of bragging that can be done. Think about it the next time you look at a statue of one of those two great Lithuanian statesmen that brought great honor to Poland's history. Dr. Dan 04:54, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, I proposed that the naming issue be left to the Lithuanians, and you explode with all this vitriol. What gives? Are you secretly worried that my prediction will come true in the near future, and you will be left in an embittered minority even among your fellow Lithuanians? Balcer 05:16, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

No Balcer, I'm not even secretly worried that a "a concerted action by your group could force the name (how interesting) in there". When I explode as you call it, it usually follows the hypocritical biased remarks that often emenate from this group of my friends. Besides what part of my "vitriol" struck you as being untrue? Hmm? Dr. Dan 12:36, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Truth that's told with bad intent Beats all the Lies you can invent. William Blake. Balcer 13:10, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad to hear, that you're talking about "obsolete nationalism" and "glorifing the boring homogeneity". I would be even more glad, if you would accept concept of true "multicultural" city. Although as for now i can see only one sided nationalism, as historical Lithuanian capital in multiple articles is said to be Polish city (neverminding the fact, that no one form Crown could get a state "job" in GDL, could not buy even a square centimeter of a land (up until final partition of our commonwealth), and that as Poles (those, who began to refer to themselves as Poles) have grown in numbers in this city, the main majority of inhabitants were Jews, that did call themselves Litvaks, who had great deal of tensions with Poles) "that has never been called Vilnius", and also not accepting proven facts that whole region of Vilnius was Lithuanian for centuries (and Polonised to notable extent only in the 19-th century, or rather second half of 19-th century - this is an object of discussion by historians). I do not want to go through all the involved nations (be it Russian or Poles) efforts of de-lithuanisation of this region, although it simply angers me when someone begins to speak about "multiculturalism" for the sake of manipulation. I do talk about research I've read, and most of what I've read is Polish research - Juliusz Bardach as an example.

For those who would be eager to accuse me trying in some way to Lithuanise (term invented by Halibutt on the fly by the kind suggestion by Piotrus) nowadays Poles of this region - trust me, I don't. Although I do have my opinion on the methods of agelong Polonisation (and especially 19th and 20th century doings) - and I do not find nothing glorious, nothing to be proud of or even not a sign of "multiculturalism" in it.--Lokyz 21:29, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Your argument is as flawed as your declaration that Lithuanization was invented by Halibutt. Feel free to nominate that article for WP:AFD if you think it's OR, until than, please keep your speculations of what ulterior motives certain editors have ot yourself.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  00:50, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah right! Too bad you didn't pipe up when Balcer told us what you could all Force the "Wilno" issue on English Wikipedia, and tell us how "flawed" that declaration was. But then again you never mediated those kind of remarks when thay came from the likes of Molobo either. Neither as an administrator nor as a contributor to WP. William Blake my foot! Sorry, no bad intent on my part, just the facts. Why don't you mull them over before you try to Force any more of your bias on English Wikipedia. Dr. Dan 05:27, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Give me a break. I clearly indicated that any such forcing here would be a bad idea. Saying something is possible is not saying something is good or advisable. Of course in general let me asssure you, that I do not find such forcing of POV good in any circumstances. Still, as we all know, it happens quite often, since when about five established editors set their minds on some change and are willing to fight revert wars over the subject, they are very difficult to stop. I think your tactics here are well illustrated by another quote:

If you give me six lines written by the most honest man, I will find something in them to hang him.Cardinal Richelieu. Balcer 12:47, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, that the weird Lithuanization term is indeed a neologism has been shown at the article's talk as most of the books where the term is found refer to the software and keyboard issues. The article at the onset was an ORish essay as the main period of the "Lithuanization" according to the author was quite the opposite, so it had to be redone. After that, most of the article correctly describes the period where no, so called, "Lithuanization" took place. It describes it correctly but having it in the article makes no sense anyway. I think AfD would be optimal, but unfortunately it won't pass since the topic "looks" scientific to the casual clueless onlooker. At least it makes nonsense claims no more, which is a step froward. --Irpen 01:04, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the 19th Century Polonization of ethnic Lithuanians in Vilnius was very cruel. The Polish government controlled the action, the Polish secret police distributed Polish books in kindergardens for Lithuanian children. The Poles deported Lithuanian activists to Pacanów. The Polish army fought Lithuanian guerilla. Xx236 10:16, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually I was thinking more about realities rather than fantasies. Like the reneging on the treaty of October 1920, signed between Poland and Lithuania, and the "staging of the mutiny" by Zeligowski. I was also thinking of another moment you can be proud of, the Polish Ultimatum to Lithuania of 1938, which in essence said: "You've got twenty-four hours to do as we say, or else". I think even Hitler gave Dr. Hacha, a little more time. Dr. Dan 13:46, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for invoking Godwin's Law, but this board is not a forum for your personal attacks. Next time you will be reverted. Appleseed (Talk) 21:02, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Which personal attack, or attacks, Appleseed? Re-read the whole thread again. And thank you for invoking the perception that the non-existant "Cabal" is a reality by your participation. Right now we are only missing a few other voices with imaginations like yours. Plus we have William Blake and Cardinal Richelieu backing you up against me. If they weren't dead, or couldn't care less about the matter, they could help you Force the Lithuanian editors to accept "Wilno" over Vilnius, and the other non-Polish readers and contributors to English Wikipedia as well. Dr. Dan 03:27, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Poland

Please add this page to your watchlist or check it every few days. Poland-related deletions often need comments.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  19:19, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Image copyright issue

We could use some more source information on Image:Stefan Czarniecki.jpg. —Remember the dot ^(talk) 04:23, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Fixed.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  05:52, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Ciepielów - citations needed

There has been a request to provide sources for the Ciepielów article. Mieciu K 11:07, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Guess who started the Ciepielów campaign. Xx236 10:08, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Who? Anyway I suggest splitting Ciepielów massacre from Ciepielów, the village is non-controversial by itself, I am sure.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  22:50, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Jerzy Cardinal Radziwiłł

Did he use such name, eg. in Latin tetxts? Lithuanian Wikipedia claims he was lt:Jurgis Radvila. Did he ever use such name? Xx236 10:07, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Lithuanian Wiki is feel to use whatever they think it's appoppriate on their end, per their 'Use Lithuanian' guidelines and such. I am more worried about whether we should remove cardinal 'middle name' from all cardinals (Stefan Cardinal Wyszyński, etc.).-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:25, 9 May 2007 (UTC)