Talk:Gustavus Adolphus

In 1632, Sweden had not yet adopted the Gregorian Calendar, so his death is memorized on November 6. Since 1928, this is done by eating a special pastry topped with his portrait in marsipan, called Gustav Adolf-bakelse. This tradition is especially popular in Gothenburg, the city he founded. In Finland, the Swedish-speaking community celebrates November 6 as "the Swedish day".

This is just not encyclopedic (although oddly interesting). If included, it needs to go somewhere other than the middle of GA's career. JHK

Appearance in Fiction

Gustavus is a major character in the alternate history book 1632 by Eric Flint and its sequel 1633 (with more to follow). The books mention his "secret" person Captain Gars, which would appear to have a historical basis (AltaVista failed to find any mention but Google came up trumps). Is this the sort of information which should appear for such a major historical figure? Actually I would assume that the Captain Gars nugget should be added Phil 10:54, Oct 31, 2003 (UTC) Added April 3, 2005 by JohnMc

Naming conventions for Swedish monarchs

Gustavus Adolphus is the name under which the Swedish king Gustav II Adolf generally is known to an English speaking audience. The discussion regarding the English, or Wikipedia names, of the Swedish monarchs is kept under Talk:List of Swedish monarchs. -- Mic 16:35, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)

On Talk:List of Swedish monarchs the name in English is "Gustav II Adolph", and this is an English encyclopedia. Also, it should use the correct title of the monarch. See also: http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761560687/Gustav_II_Adolph.html Sky 08:06, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

see also: [User_talk:Mic#Gustav_II_Adolph_of_Sweden] Sky 15:25, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Regarding Gustavus Adolphus there are several in different forms in use which are widely accepted, and not even the Swedish language convenstions are consistent on the issue. Currently there are a number of unresolved issues regarding the naming of Swedish monarchs. See Unresolved naming issues for the Swedish monarchs for a discussion on this. (See also: User talk:Sky#Regarding your editing style)-- Mic 12:09, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Gustav II Adolph

The Microsoft Encyclopedia lists the guy under "Gustav II Adolph (of Sweden)" and also two other encyclopedias I have looked at. The Encyclopedia Britannica even lists him under the Swedish name Gustav II Adolf (which I think is even better). I do not understand your point of view. Please have a look at User talk:Sky. Sky 08:36, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

PS: Since this is the English wikipedia, different Swedish forms of the name really don't matter. Sky 08:53, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

1626 Campaign in PLC

This article has no mention at all of pre-1630 Gustav fights. See Stanislaw_Koniecpolski#War_against_the_Swedes for some of his earlier campaigns info that you coul easily add here. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:39, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Gustavus Adolphus?

Shouldn't this be at something like Gustavus II Adolphus of Sweden? The current name is not the most commonly used name in English, by far... john k 20:11, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

If "Gustavus Adolphus" is how he's best known, then yes, it should be. Proteus (Talk) 22:18, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

This is a case where there is indeed a traditional English form of a Swedish name (as opposed to the mere stripping of diacritics from a name), and I have long had the urge to move him to Gustavus II Adolphus of Sweden. However, the title should be consistent with all other Swedish monarchs with the names Gustav or Adolf, so they will have to be moved as well, and all redirects then need to be fixed. / Tupsharru 15:18, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Actually, it should not be consistent, because usage changes over time. We already have Charles XII of Sweden and Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden, for instance. We could keep Gustav VI Adolf of Sweden (which is already weird, with the "v" ending Gustav and the "f" ending Adolf) and move this one to Gustavus II Adolphus of Sweden. The list of Swedish monarchs should attempt to be consistent, I think, but there's no need for the article titles to. john k 03:00, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I think it's prudent to point out that "Gustavus Adolphus" is Latin, not English. That Encyclopedia Britannica uses "Gustav II Adolf" is a very good reason not to use the Latin name. That my fellow Swedes have a disturbing tendency to believe the latinized names are acually English "translations" is a different matter altogether. This just seems to be some kind of insecurity about using the Swedish terms among Swedes themselves, despite the major encyclopedias like EB favoring the Swedish names.

And why the quirky spelling? Is it somehow more English to use "ph" rather than just "f"...?

Peter Isotalo 20:43, May 20, 2005 (UTC)

Peter, you are welcome to erase the offensive comment above and replace it with something worthy of a reply. Tupsharru 08:10, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Considering the extreme silliness that I've experienced with the naming of articles like Gotlandia and Medelpadia, I think I'll keep the comment, though I did not intend to single out this discusssion as representative of this trait and apologize if it was perceived as insulting. How do you comment the fact that major English language encyclopedias don't use "Gustavus Adolphus"?

Peter ^Isotalo 23:47, May 22, 2005 (UTC)

Peter, I think it would be better if you kept to one issue at the time, and I would like to suggest that you join the Wikipedia:Swedish Wikipedians' notice board, and create a subpage there on naming standards for Swedish topics. I don't see your annoyment with User:Mic as quite justified, as this is a very difficult issue. Some of his choices may be questioned, but if it hadn't been for the work he put into it, a lot of things would have to be done from scratch, rather than by just moving a few pages.

As for GIIA, current usage is probably influenced by the Swedish form, but Gustavus and Gustavus Adolphus, Latin endings and all, is indeed traditional English usage; it was still used, for instance, for Gustavus III and Gustavus IV Adolphus by their contemporaries, as witnessed by a search of the full-text database of The Times from that period. The name of the Swedish-American Gustavus Adolphus College is another witness to this usage, and the arguably most significant English-language author on Swedish history, Michael Roberts used this form in titles of his influential books on the king, published in 1958 and 1973 (the latter republished in 1992). If you check Libris, you will find other, even more recent, book titles which use Gustavus Adolphus. There is no doubt that this is the name under which English-speakers of, say, the 19th century would have known him and the name many still prefer. The situation today is more ambiguous, but I think there is still a fair case for using it today. However, basing conclusions on a faulty Google search is not useful, here or anywhere else.

BTW, the EB is not a good model, considering it uses Charles VIII Knutsson (with the fake, anachronistic numbering) for the king known in Swedish as Karl Knutsson (Bonde) (and in Wikipedia as Charles VIII of Sweden). I don't know whether there is any English usage to speak of in that case; It just seems like an arbitrary choice.

In any case, I still think the issue of how to name other kings historically referred to by the name of Gustavus has to be part of the discussion. Although usage has clearly changed from the late 19th century towards favouring the Swedish forms for contemporary monarchs (as opposed to historic ones), I think a move of Gustav II Adolph to Gustavus Adolphus (or some similar version) would need a consideration of other kings from the period when this was contemporary usage, i.e. GIII and GIVA. Tupsharru 15:28, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

This is very relevant to the other Swedish goegraphy non-sequitur, Tupsharru, because this not the first time I've encountered a peculiar tendency among Swedes to choose article titles that are either "correct translations" or that appear to sound as non-Swedish as possible (whether they are actually English or notable seems irrelevant). I think this is pretty consistent with the attitude that a lot of Swedes have about their own history and language. It's not as much anti-nationalist as it is simply anti-Swedish; anything that somehow differs from Swedish terms or from what Swedes themselves use seems to be treated as consistently more objective, correct and favorable, and a lot of the time a great deal of Swenglish is involved. To keep this discussion among Swedes is really the worst solution and quite contrary to Wikipedia purposes, since it's obvious that the opinions of non-Swedes is as relevant and important in these discussions. It's hardly just the business of Swedes to describe their own history...

As for GA, contemporary usage of titles, names and the likes is simply never relevant as a motivation for choosing encyclopedic article ttiles for the very reason that I stated before; Latin being a major lingua franca. The relevant usage is, and should always be, the current usage. That one of the alternatives coincides with the historical usage is not the issue and should, if anything, used as a reason why not to use it.

When pointing out that EB (and Encarta) are using the Swedish name, I'm certainly not trying to promote an "EB model", but rather trying to point out that other encyclopedias, which seem to me as being among the most relevant for our purposes, have chosen the Swedish name. I'm really surprised that you because of this actually object to the very idea of being influenced by the Swedish name. It would, if anything be logical to do just that, especially when choosing between a Latinized and a Swedish name. Since both names are obviously used in English contexts to a reasonable degree and with encyclopedias choosing the Swedish form, it seems very odd that the Latin one would all of a sudden be deemed the most appropriate.

But I suppose a poll is the only way to really settle this, so could someone set one up? And could we try to avoid "correct" or "consistent" naming, because the names of kings seldom seem to be in real-world texts or even encyclopedias. "Gustavus Adolphus" or "Gustav II Adolf" seem to me as the only really relevant alternatives.

Peter ^Isotalo 12:22, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

It might be "more English" to use the -ph ending rather than the -f ending in Adolph. But jsut because the -f ending may be more common in modern Swedish, that does not mean that the -ph ending is not a historically correct Swedish spelling as well. Gene Nygaard 14:29, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

Google returns about 212,000 hits for "Gustavus Adolphus" and only about about 1,100 for "Gustav II Adolph of Sweden". Limiting the search to English, it finds about 170,000 English pages for "Gustavus Adolphus" and only 1,070 English pages for "Gustav II Adolph of Sweden". NoAccount 16:39, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Just for the record, searching for "Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden" results in 663 hits, and the proper search for the other names is around 3700 (English sites). There seems to be a lot of colleges, buildings, churches and the likes named after GA that show up in searches for the Latin name, btw. Despite this, I would like to insist on that the choice made by several major encyclopedias should be given more importance than just Google searches.

Peter ^Isotalo 00:07, May 23, 2005 (UTC)

"...a lot of colleges, buildings, churches and the likes named after Gustavus Adolphus" under that name. Doesn't that tell you something about which one is the most well known? NoAccount 00:48, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

No, it just tells us that a college and a couple of churches in Minnesota happen to bear the name "Gustavus Adolphus". If you make a search with "-college" the amount of hits drops to 41k. Add "-Minnesota" and your down to 37k and add "-church" and it goes down to 28k. And once again: please give me a good explanation why major English-language encyclopedias use the Swedish name instead of the Latin one.

Peter ^Isotalo 11:46, May 28, 2005 (UTC)

I'm in favour of the change in name but to follow common policy Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Historical names and titles the didget and the country should be in there eg:

• Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom commonly known as Elizabeth II
• Mary I of England commonly known as Bloody Mary
• Richard I of England commonly known as Richard the Lionheart
• William I of England commonly known as William the Conqueror
• Louis XIV of France often called the Sun King.

Although as Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles)#Monarchical titles says:

Where there has only been one holder of a specific monarchical name in a state, the ordinal is used only when the ordinal was in official use. For example, Victoria of the United Kingdom, not Victoria I of the United Kingdom; Juan Carlos I of Spain, not Juan Carlos of Spain.

So I think that or Gustavus II of Sweden or Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden or Gustavus II Adolphus of Sweden would be better than just Gustavus Adolphus --Philip Baird Shearer 01:12, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

He was to the best of my knowledge never refered to as "Gustavus II Adolphus". The Swedes called him "Gustav II Adolf" and the rest of Europe apparantly called him "Gustavus Adolphus" because Latin was still a widely used lingua franca. Though I just can't fathom the reasons for rendering either "Gustav" or "Adolf" into Latin in modern English. It simply smacks of Swenglish...

Peter ^Isotalo 11:46, May 28, 2005 (UTC)

I disagree with you, however this gets us no where nearer to deciding if this article should be renamed, and if so to what name. So I propose that we vote on it. By using Approval voting and listing the options. One can vote for as many or as few options as one wishes too.

Requested moves

The Requested move placed on the WP:RM page was:

Gustav II Adolph of Sweden → Gustavus Adolphus since this name is much more common. See the google searches on the discussion page. NoAccount

Because there was no clear consensus reached to move the page, (or for the page to remain under the current name),after five days this has been extended 2 June 2005.

I propose that a vote is taken and that Approval voting is used so that there can be more than one option. Philip Baird Shearer 14:52, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

---

Requested move to Gustavus Adolphus.

Oppose

1. Oppose. In this case it seems as if the name as used in encyclopedias as Encarta and Encyclopedia Britannica seems more rational. Gustavus Adolphus is not English and strikes me as being just a parallel to names like the Sun King or similar popular names. Proposed alternatives like Gustavus II Adolphus just don't make sense, since it's merely based on Latinized Swedish names; not English. / Peter ^Isotalo 14:34, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

Add any additional names which you may think are appropriate to the list above. Support or Oppose any of the listed proposals. Voting more than once is encouraged with Approval voting. Philip Baird Shearer 14:52, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

What's is the point of counter-opposing everything you're not supporting! It's one vote per alternative or no one will ever understand what the actual outcome will be. Please check out Talk:Swedish Social Democratic Party for how to design a proper vote.

Peter ^Isotalo 14:11, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

Since the request was for the moving to Gustavus Adolphus, the vote should be about that. I've reformated the vote to how it's usually done, but if you feel you need the other alternatives, at least format it properly, and not with this chaotic second option-system. It's one vote per option. Period.

Peter ^Isotalo 14:34, May 29, 2005 (UTC)