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The above named group chooses articles for the various release versions. If you will note, there are currently comparatively few articles relating to religion included. I think that this might be due to having comparatively few active editors in the project who deal with religion articles. Given your knowledge of the field, I think you would be a wonderful person to help select articles for inclusion in the various release versions, particularly those articles which relate to religion. John Carter 14:30, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Sure, I will be glad to help out. I have looked over the project page, and there are a great deal of subpages. Could you direct me to the conversation in question - about where the discussion is going on regarding which articles to include? Pastordavid 15:06, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Wikipedia:Release Version gives the basic format for the selection process, and Wikipedia:Release Version Nominations lists the articles that are currently being considered for inclusion in the next release version. I am trying to add all the religion related FA, GA, etc., to the various Religion project article lists, but that will take quite a while. I do note that Christianity, though, for all of its size and historical importance, seems to be underrepresented. As I go through the Religion projects, I'll be able to see which others are as well. John Carter 15:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I can't belive I've never found your user page before. Very nice to "meet" you, and Wow! you've done some good work here. Cjoshuav 00:40, 2 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Glad to see you back. I hope and pray whatever concerns have kept you busy are resolved satisfactorily soon. And no one can be faulted for unpredictable events, so don't say anything's your "fault", OK? Even forgetting signatures. I did that once today myself, and I don't have the excuse you do. John Carter 21:58, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- "Resolved" probably isn't the right word - my first child (a beautiful baby girl) was born in September. Everything is very good - fantastic even - I just needed to take a break toward the end of the pregnancy until she was born. Just making a little joke about my prolonged, and unexplained, absence. But thank you for the words of welcome - it will be good to get back. Pastordavid 22:01, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- More than enough cause. You've got several concerns to deal with, and sleep will probably be a biggie for quite awhile. From what I know of you, I have to think that you're among the better people to be parents I can know. And I don't think anyone can have any problems with you having your priorities in the right place. John Carter 22:07, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Welcome back from me to, Pastor. Congratulations on your new parenthood!--Cúchullain t/c 02:55, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Congratulations and welcome back. I hope you're getting some sleep at night. Looking forward to working with you again next year. Majoreditor 04:18, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The request to have the article Daniel Estulin deleted per WP:SOAP has been contested. | DUKEREDFREE SPEECH 04:30, 15 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for deleting Gellar field, at last someone got to it. But I just want to point at the notice to admins on WP:PROD: please don't use a delete-reason like "uncontested prod" , but write something meaningful, like using the proposers reason if that was a clear one. Going out on a limb here, Greswik 22:41, 15 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Noted. Pastordavid (talk) 18:25, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Would you agree with the proposition that the Last Supper as referenced in Mark and Matthew is set as a Passover meal, is either common knowledge or consensus, in wiki terms, and thereby need no citation, or would such a reference need a citation from a reliable secondary source, or would there be some other proper way of including it in an article? Eschoir (talk) 03:18, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Responded on user's talk page. Pastordavid (talk) 18:28, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks. The subject is this table I organized from Dominic Crossan's Historical Jesus p 360-367.
| Didache 10
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Didache 9
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Corinthians
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Mark
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Matthew
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Luke
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| 10.1 After you have had your fill, give thanks thus: 10.2 We give thanks to you holy Father for your holy Name which you have made to dwell in our hearts and for the knowledge, faith and immortality which you have revealed to us through Jesus your servant. To you be glory for ever. 10.3 You Lord almighty have created everything for the sake of your Name; you have given human beings food and drink to partake with enjoyment so that they might give thanks; but to us you have given the grace of spiritual food and drink and of eternal life through Jesus your servant. 10.4 Above all we give you thanks because you are mighty.
To you be glory for ever. 10.5 Remember Lord your Church, to preserve it from all evil and to make it perfect in your love. And, sanctified, gather it from the four winds into your kingdom which you have prepared for it. Because yours is the power and the glory for ever.
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9.1 Concerning the eucharist, give thanks thus: 9.2 First, concerning the cup: We give thanks to you, our Father, For the holy vine of David your servant which you have revealed to us through Jesus your servant. To you be glory for ever. 9.3 And concerning the fragment: We give thanks to you, our Father, For the life and knowledge, which you have revealed to us through Jesus your servant.
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The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.
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While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take it; this is my body." Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, and they all drank from it. "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many," he said to them. 25 "I tell you the truth, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it anew in the kingdom of God."
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26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body." 27 Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom."
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So they prepared the Passover. 14 When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. 15 And he said to them, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16 For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God." 17 After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, "Take this and divide it among you. 18 For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes." 19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me." 20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.
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| Eucharist, with no Passover, Last Supper, or Death of Jesus
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Eucharist, with no Passover, Last Supper, or Death of Jesus
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Lord's Supper
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Passover
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Passover
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Passover
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| Common Meal followed by Thanks to the Father, no bread nor cup
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Common meal followed by Cup (thanks for the Holy Vine of David) and Bread (thanks for the life and knowledge of Jesus)
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Bread, Thanks, Common Meal, Cup
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During meal, first Bread, then Cup and Thanks
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During meal, first Bread, then Cup and Thanks
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During meal, first Cup and Thanks, then Bread and Thanks, then second Cup
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| No remembrance
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No remembrance
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Remembrance in both cup and bread
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No remembrance
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No remembrance
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No remembrance in either Cup, but in Bread
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Two other editors objected, and deleted it. In an effort at consensus I started a new unsourced table, which now looks like this.
| 1 Corinthians
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Mark
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Matthew
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Luke
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Didache
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Ignatius of Antioch[1]
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Justin Martyr[2]
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| 11:23 ... the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks (εὐχαριστήσας – eucharistēsas), he broke it, and said, "This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." 25 In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.
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14:22 And as they were eating, he took bread, and blessed (εὐλογήσας - eulogēsas), and broke it, and gave it to them, and said, "Take; this is my body." 23 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks (εὐχαριστήσας - eucharistēsas) he gave it to them, and they all drank of it. 24 And he said to them, "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many. 25 Truly, I say to you, I shall not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God."
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26:26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed (εὐλογήσας - eulogēsas), and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, "Take, eat; this is my body." 27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks (εὐχαριστήσας – eucharistēsas) he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you; 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you I shall not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."
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22:13 ... they prepared the passover. 14 And when the hour came, he sat at table, and the apostles with him. 15 And he said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer; 16 for I tell you I shall not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God." 17 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks (εὐχαριστήσας – eucharistēsas) he said, "Take this, and divide it among yourselves; 18 for I tell you that from now on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes." 19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks (εὐχαριστήσας – eucharistēsas) he broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me." 20 And likewise the cup after supper, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood. ..."
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9.1 Concerning the eucharist (= the thanksgiving, τῆς εὐχαριστίας – tēs eucharistias) give thanks (εὐχαριστήσατε – eucharistēsate) thus: 9.2 First, concerning the cup: "We give thanks (εὐχαριστοῦμεν – eucharistoumen) to you, our Father, For the holy vine of David your servant which you have revealed to us through Jesus your servant. To you be glory for ever." 9.3 And concerning the fragment: "We give thanks to you (εὐχαριστοῦμεν – eucharistoumen), our Father, For the life and knowledge, which you have revealed to us through Jesus your servant." But let no one eat or drink of your Eucharist, unless they have been baptized into the name of the Lord; for concerning this also the Lord has said, "Give not that which is holy to the dogs." 10.1 After you have had your fill, give thanks (εὐχαριστήσατε – eucharistēsate) thus: 10.2 We give thanks (εὐχαριστοῦμεν – eucharistoumen) to you holy Father for your holy Name which you have made to dwell in our hearts and for the knowledge, faith and immortality which you have revealed to us through Jesus your servant. To you be glory for ever. 10.3 You Lord almighty have created everything for the sake of your Name; you have given human beings food and drink to partake with enjoyment so that they might give thanks; but to us you have given the grace of spiritual food and drink and of eternal life through Jesus your servant. 10.4 Above all we give you thanks (εὐχαριστοῦμεν – eucharistoumen) because you are mighty.
To you be glory for ever. 10.5 Remember Lord your Church, to preserve it from all evil and to make it perfect in your love. And, sanctified, gather it from the four winds into your kingdom which you have prepared for it. Because yours is the power and the glory for ever.
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… the Eucharist is the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which flesh suffered for our sins, and which in His loving-kindness the Father raised up. … Let that eucharist alone be considered valid which is under the bishop or him to whom he commits it. … It is not lawful apart from the bishop either to baptize, or to hold a love-feast. But whatsoever he approves, that also is well-pleasing to God, that everything which you do may be secure and valid (Smyrnaeans, 6, 8).
Give heed to keep one Eucharist. For there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup unto union with His blood. There is one altar, as there is one bishop, together with the presbytery and deacons, my fellow-servants; that whatsoever you do, you may do according unto God (Philadelphians, 4).
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There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water …when the president has given thanks … those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced... And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles … have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body"; and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood"; and gave it to them alone.
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| No mention of Passover; reference made to Last Supper; the bread referred to as the body of Christ and the cup as the new covenant in the blood of Christ; proclamation of the death of Jesus
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No mention of Passover in the passage quoted;[3] the bread referred to as the body of Christ and the cup as the blood of Christ; no proclamation or explicit mention of the death of Jesus
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No mention of Passover in the passage quoted; [4] the bread referred to as the body of Christ and the cup as the blood of Christ; no proclamation or explicit mention of the death of Jesus; reference to forgiveness of sins
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Meal called Passover; a first cup not referred to Christ, bread referred to as the body of Christ and a second cup as the new covenant in the blood of Christ; reference to Jesus' coming suffering and to the fulfillment of the Passover in the Kingdom of God; no proclamation or explicit mention of death of Jesus
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Separate thanksgivings for a cup and for broken bread, followed, "after you have had your fill", with another thanksgiving, with no mention of food other than the cup and bread, of Passover, Last Supper, body and blood or death of Jesus, but the cup and bread are declared to be holy
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No mention of Passover meal or Last Supper; no explicit mention of bread; Eucharist declared to be the flesh of Christ that suffered; oneness of the Eucharist to be in keeping with the oneness of the flesh of Christ and of the cup unto union with his blood; requirements for validity of the Eucharist; connection between Eucharist and "altar"
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No mention of Passover; reference made to Last Supper; no mention of any food[5] other than the bread and the cup of wine mixed with water, which, when the thanksgiving has been pronounced over them are declared to be, respectively, the body and the blood of Christ
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| Bread, thanks, declaration that it was the body of Christ; after supper "in the same way the Cup", declaration that it was the new covenant in the blood of Christ
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"As they were eating", bread, blessing and declaration that it was the body of Christ; afterwards, cup, thanks and declaration that it was the blood of Christ
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"As they were eating", bread, blessing and declaration that it was the body of Christ; afterwards, cup, thanks and declaration that it was the blood of Christ
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During Seder, first a cup and thanks, then bread, thanks and declaration that it was the body of Christ, then, after the meal, another cup, declared to be the new covenant in the blood of Christ
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A cup (thanks for the Holy Vine of David revealed through Jesus) and broken bread (thanks for the life and knowledge revealed through Jesus), then, "after you have had your fill", thanks to the Father for his indwelling Name and for the knowledge, faith and immortality revealed through Jesus.
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Rite, involving an altar, associated with the flesh of Christ and his blood (explicit mention of a cup); for validity it must be carried out under the bishop or his delegate
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No mention of food other than bread and watered wine; prayers and thanksgivings; a president and deacons
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| Remembrance instruction mentioned both for bread and cup
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No mention of remembrance instruction
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No mention of remembrance instruction
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Remembrance instruction mentioned for bread only
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No mention of remembrance instruction
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No mention of remembrance instruction
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Remembrance instruction mentioned for bread only
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The other two editors insist in Talk:Eucharist that saying "Passover" for Mark and Matthew needs a citation, therefore the table says (among a myriad other problems) Matthew and Mark have no passover mention, with a bizarre footnote that says, yes, they really do.
My suspicion is that, if it is not common knowledge, or at least consensus, because we all agree that Matthew and Mark place the last supper as Passover meal, and it needs to be sourced, then ALL the material in the boxes of the table need to be equally sourced, and not from the primary source.
Which means that my table, totally sourced from Crossan, is the more useable table, at the moment. Eschoir (talk) 19:01, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And welcome back! Hope all is going well with the new addition, and good to see you back around. Seraphimblade Talk to me 19:04, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
My substantive question is thus. I studied Russian in college. Russian has no articles, so you can only say "pass me bread" not pass me the bread. I have read enough to confuse me whether Aramaic is similarly structured. It must have been addressed in the literature somewhere before me. Is it possible to source the following statement: In the tongue Jesus is most likely to have spoken, it would have been linguistically impossible to differentiate between "a son of God" and "the Son of God"? Eschoir (talk) 22:51, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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