Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Master Hilarion: Difference between revisions

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Master Hilarion, et al

Article about a... thing... that has no notability outside of an obscure Victorian spiritualist movenment. Some material might be merged into Seven Rays, H. P. Blavatsky, etc. Adam Cuerden ^talk 16:15, 14 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Also nominating for delete/merge:

and the Theosophy sectoon of Count of St. Germain, at least, if the huge section discussing a dozen or so different Theosophanist's views on him in great detail is again restored. All form part of a huge walled garden. Adam Cuerden ^talk 16:15, 14 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete or merge unless notability established on each individual article. These articles seem to fail WP:N: no evidence of substantial coverage from independent, reliable sources. The sources in the article are from publishing houses that are owned by/associated with the various New Age movements that believe in these things. I conducted Lexis-Nexis searches of all the major English-language newspapers, plus Google Scholar searches, and found no substantial coverage from reliable, independent sources. I went to the Harvard library and pulled what seem to be the major reference books that discuss Ascended Master Teachings and other New Age movements and found little or no coverage of these subjects. Full disclosure: This AfD is the result of a somewhat heated discussion on the Fringe theories noticeboard (e.g., someone compared me and other editors to the Nazis and then the Taliban for trying to "censor" a religious movement). Fireplace (talk) 16:25, 14 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely keep all.

Since I am the individual being referred to by User:Fireplace, let me again repeat: I was referring to the mentality that desires to DENY information on subjects they find worthless. I had written: "Today that same mentality would smother access to subjects that it deems "fringe" and "pseudoscience". You have no right to make that value judgement when dealing with sourced and referenced articles, no matter what the subject matter. Using that tactic is simply not the way to build Wikipedia into the academic and NPOV encyclopedia that it is intended to be. "

I object to deletion. Before considering how to eliminate these few articles on subjects that many people consider spiritually significant to their lives, how about first considering the elimination of the HUNDREDS of Wikipedia articles on comic book characters from Marvel Comics and DC Comics - for example, see: List_of_DC_Comics_characters. How about considering the eliminating the HUNDREDS of Wikipedia articles on Catholic saints (List_of_saints) and HUNDREDS of Wikipedia articles on Hindu gods and goddesses (List_of_Hindu_deities)?

In the last 132 years, hundreds of books have been written about "Theosophy" and the "Ascended Master Teachings", in various languages and by many publishers. These have described their religious / philosophical theories, their "saints" and adepts, and the social phenomena of the 19th and 20th century organizations that developed from the foundations of the writings of Helena Blavatsky, Rudolph Steiner, Alice Bailey, Guy Ballard, and various others. Great White Brotherhood, Hilarion, Sanat Kumara, Morya, Kuthumi, Paul the Venetian, Serapis Bey, Master Jesus, Djwal Khul all are prominent in many 19th and 20th century religious and philosophical organizations.

All one can do with any religion, let alone those apart from the mainstream, is to faithfully report their beliefs taken from the literature of the believers of their religious belief system. In doing so, we are not assesing truth claims (such as the Mormons believing that God is a physical being on another planet), one simply reports on the beliefs held, with as much accuracy as possible - with reliable sources and references.

There is no need at all to assess the truth claims of the 20th century new religions. If people were to delve into assessing the truth claims of religion, then an entry on Christianity may as well begin with assessing whether God exists. The best approach would seem to be an accurate rendition of any movement's beliefs, nature, history and activities (regardless of what a Wikipedia editor's own views are). Questioning the validity or "notability" of religious beliefs isn't the role of an encyclopedia entry. Arion (talk) 19:46, 14 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am against deletion or merging of the articles on Dwal Khul, Hilarion, Sanat Kumara, Moray, Kuthumi, Paul the Venetian, Serapis Bey, and Master Jesus. They are spiritually, historically, and socio-culturally significant to stand as separate articles Sage 122568.231.166.180 (talk) 17:44, 14 December 2007 (UTC)— 68.231.166.180 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

Keep All Theosophy seems to be a notable religion and so its pantheon merits some detailed articles. See Google Scholar on Master Jesus which includes Christianity and Theosophy Harmonized. Colonel Warden (talk) 19:07, 14 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Question Does notability automatically transfer from a religion to its pantheon? Is that consistent with the "significant coverage" standard of WP:N? (Also, Christianity and Theosophy Harmonized does not appear to be an independent source.) Fireplace (talk) 19:14, 14 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - Answer In this case, the answer is yes. The only question here really is whether coverage of these folk should be merged with their treatment from other viewpoints. I think not, as this would tend to promote holy edit wars. See Islamic view of Jesus for another similar article to Master Jesus. Colonel Warden (talk) 19:40, 14 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    - Why is the answer "yes"? Phrasing the answer in terms of Wikipedia policy/guidelines, in light of WP:N, would be more helpful. Fireplace (talk) 21:36, 14 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      - For general help, I recommend WP:FANATIC. For this specific AFD, there's Subject is a POV. Colonel Warden (talk) 22:20, 14 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        I'm not sure how pointing me to WP:FANATIC is relevant or civil. And Subject is a POV does not address the notability issue, which is the concern that led these articles to AfD. Fireplace (talk) 22:23, 14 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        It should not be necessary to explain that Jesus is notable. The Theosophist religious view of him is the fork in the POV which I find to be adequately notable and sourced. Your badgering of my position seems both hostile and intolerant in pursuit of your desire to destroy these articles. You note above your surprise at being compared with the Nazis. They espoused a ruthless, modern and scientific view of the world which led them to burn the books of which they disapproved. The WP:FANATIC essay encourages us to take a more relaxed view of our work here and it seems quite pertinent. Colonel Warden (talk) 23:11, 14 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        ...I really don't think that that was being helpful, boyo. (And a ruthless, scientific view of the world that involved pagan rites based on the Siegfried myth?) Adam Cuerden ^talk 23:14, 14 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        
        Colonel Warden, I've been calmly discussing a legitimate policy question about interpreting the notability threshold. Fireplace (talk) 23:18, 14 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. A neutral point of view encyclopedia is founded on verifiability. Of course Wikipedia should have an appropriate depth and breath of coverage of the history, beliefs, and personalities of the theosophist movement, but having perused the articles, it appears that every one of them rests on overtly theosophist books for effectively all of the content. This is not a healthy state of affairs and seems to be an argument in favour of ruthless merging and/or redirecting. Could any of these articles be rewritten to use independent, non-theosophist sources for at least the key points? Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:50, 14 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Keep all Major figures in a major religion. I find it just as appropriate to use Theosophical sources as a description as to describe those of any other religion from its works. We don't look for non-Christian sources about Saint Paul, or insist on non-Moslem sources for Ali. If there is a controversial discussion of correspondence with secular individuals, then that might need better sourcing, but I do not see such claims being made, and its a matter of editing in any case. I generally wonder whether attempts to remove such articles are perhaps sometimes expressiond of a POV on religion or on certain religions.DGG (talk) 04:25, 15 December 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Revision as of 04:25, 15 December 2007 edit DGG (talk \| contribs) 316,874 edits →‎Master Hilarion, et al ← Previous edit		Revision as of 04:28, 15 December 2007 edit undo DGG (talk \| contribs) 316,874 edits →‎Master Hilarion, et al Next edit →
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	*'''Comment'''. A [[WP:NPOV\|neutral point of view]] encyclopedia is founded on [[WP:V\|verifiability]]. Of course Wikipedia should have an appropriate depth and breath of coverage of the history, beliefs, and personalities of the theosophist movement, but having perused the articles, it appears that every one of them rests on overtly theosophist books for effectively all of the content. This is not a healthy state of affairs and seems to be an argument in favour of ruthless merging and/or redirecting. Could any of these articles be rewritten to use independent, non-theosophist sources for at least the key points? [[User:Angusmclellan\|Angus McLellan]] [[User talk:Angusmclellan\|(Talk)]] 23:50, 14 December 2007 (UTC)		*'''Comment'''. A [[WP:NPOV\|neutral point of view]] encyclopedia is founded on [[WP:V\|verifiability]]. Of course Wikipedia should have an appropriate depth and breath of coverage of the history, beliefs, and personalities of the theosophist movement, but having perused the articles, it appears that every one of them rests on overtly theosophist books for effectively all of the content. This is not a healthy state of affairs and seems to be an argument in favour of ruthless merging and/or redirecting. Could any of these articles be rewritten to use independent, non-theosophist sources for at least the key points? [[User:Angusmclellan\|Angus McLellan]] [[User talk:Angusmclellan\|(Talk)]] 23:50, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
	*'''Keep all'' Major figures in a major religion. I find it just as appropriate to use Theosophical sources as a description as to describe those of any other religion from its works. We don't look for non-Christian sources about Saint Paul, or insist on non-Moslem sources for Ali. If there is a controversial discussion of correspondence with secular individuals, then that might need better sourcing, but I do not see such claims being made, and its a matter of editing in any case.'''[[User:DGG\|DGG]]''' ([[User talk:DGG\|talk]]) 04:25, 15 December 2007 (UTC)		*'''Keep all''' Major figures in a major religion. I find it just as appropriate to use Theosophical sources as a description as to describe those of any other religion from its works. We don't look for non-Christian sources about Saint Paul, or insist on non-Moslem sources for Ali. If there is a controversial discussion of correspondence with secular individuals, then that might need better sourcing, but I do not see such claims being made, and its a matter of editing in any case. I generally wonder whether attempts to remove such articles are perhaps sometimes expressiond of a POV on religion or on certain religions.'''[[User:DGG\|DGG]]''' ([[User talk:DGG\|talk]]) 04:25, 15 December 2007 (UTC).