Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Poland

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User:Piotrus and friends, in the midsts of Wigilia, wish you to enjoy this Christmas Eve!

Marek Michalak

An AfD is running on this person. Could someone chime in? Pavel Vozenilek (talk) 16:02, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Adding Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Poland to your watchlist is always a good idea, everyone! --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:22, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Question

I would like to create a category for people from Cieszyn Silesia (Śląsk Cieszyński), it is a region divided between Poland and the Czech Republic, so it would group together people from both sides of the border and also people from this area from the time it wasn't divided yet. It would be a inclusive category since Cieszyn Silesia is a distinct region with shared history. Cat:People from Austrian Silesia already exists, proposed one would be even more inclusive as Cieszyn Silesia is a far smaller area. Polish Wikipedia already have proper category "Ludzie związani ze Śląskiem Cieszyńskim". Any objections? - Darwinek (talk) 22:03, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Category:People from Cieszyn Silesia? Sounds good. Another subcat of Category:People from Silesia, I guess.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:43, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Good idea, start with Adam Malysz and Jerzy Pilch, also look at this [1] Tymek (talk) 20:54, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Does pl:Kategoria:Ludzie związani ze Śląskiem Cieszyńskim include Czech nationalists?Xx236 (talk) 12:59, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I am not quite sure who you mean. Polish Wikipedia category includes mainly the Polish people, which is obvious. Here it would include all people from this region - Poles, Czechs, Germans and Jews, from all historical periods. - Darwinek (talk) 13:14, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

So Nazis and Jews, Polish and Czech nationalists. Sounds absurd to me. Xx236 (talk) 09:42, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Since when German equals Nazi? Why you are still talking about nationalists? You totally misses the point. - Darwinek (talk) 09:49, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Created and populated. - Darwinek (talk) 19:35, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Notable residents

Recent vandalism elsewhere led me to look at silly edits to Tarnów. I quickly dealt with those. (Or perhaps not so quickly: they'd been there since October.) But then I noticed that the lists (plural) of residents were odd in other ways.

While I'm too lazy to check what any relevant guideline might already say about this, I strongly recommend that lists of residents limit themselves to people who already have articles in en:WP (no matter how deserving of mention the redlinks may be), and more particularly to those whose own articles make it clear that they've lived in the particular place. Without these constraints, hoaxes, vanity entries and even quasi-political disputes can multiply. But because I haven't looked for relevant guidelines, and also because I thought this might have been discussed here, I cut only two people and resisted the strong urge to cut many more. (This greater number would certainly have included some people who even I realize do deserve the articles in en:WP that they don't already get.) -- Hoary (talk) 00:41, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Tagged with more citations needed. Maybe we should prune the red links? Similar as we do with list of Poles and similar ones? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 13:27, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Speaking as an underinformed outsider, I'd suggest the ruthless cutting of every redlink within such lists. There seems nothing specifically Polish about this: I'd suggest the same thing for lists about Croatian, Indian, US or any other towns. -- Hoary (talk) 14:30, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Repatriation or expulsion

Why are Germans expelled and Poles repatriated? Xx236 (talk) 09:58, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Without any context (like which articles the phrases appear in), questions like this seem a bit pointless.--Kotniski (talk) 11:10, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

The context includes tens or even hundreds of articles, you may find them using search tool. The basic examples are Expulsion of Germans after World War II and Repatriation of Poles (1944-1946).Xx236 (talk) 12:56, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Try asking it at the German noticeboard, too. I am not familiar with the the historiography of the German explusion, but Polish repatriation is usually called repatriation. Certainly it was less violent than the German one. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 13:27, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

• Ąn example: more Poles died during the expulsion from Volhynia during the war than Germans expelled from Czechoslovakia after the war.
• Thousands of Poles were transported to Siberia, where they died or allowed to return only in 1956. Many Poles were executed as underground soldiers after the liberation.
• Poles were transported from Germany to Poland after the war in the same cattle cars Germans did. The arriving Poles were frequently robbed (at least by Soviets). Polish women were frequently raped. Which aspects are less violent?
• German ideology of expulsion is based on human rights (Heimat), not only on cruelty of the expulsions. Even people who demanded to move to Germany are expelled.
• The most violent crimes were committed on Germans by the Red Army during the war. The bombings of many German towns (eg. Dresden and Swinemünde) and sinking of ships took place during the war.
• Poles were imprisoned in the same camps (Jaworzno) and persecuted by the same UB officers as Germans were, but during years not months.
• One should define expelled groups and periods of time to use the word certainly.
• I know that many Poles still repeat Soviet propaganda. I'm not quite happy about it. Xx236 (talk) 14:48, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

This is puzzling stuff. I read above The most violent crimes were committed on Germans by the Red Army during the war. The bombings of many German towns (eg. Dresden and Świnoujście) and sinking of ships took place during the war. This suggests to me that the Red Army bombed Dresden. But this says it was instead bombed by US and British forces.

I then read the rest with some skepticism. Some looks credible, some (the bit starting One should define) is obscure. As for dissatisfaction with alleged Polish repetition of Soviet propaganda, this seems a perfectly respectable reaction but I don't know why it's being expressed here. I can't be bothered to sort it all out. Just what do you want, Xx236?

Meanwhile, readers may wish to see an earlier discussion here. -- Hoary (talk) 16:21, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

• I want academic description of WWII and postwar transfers of people. I believe it's the time to end the repatriation hoax.
• I added two links to Dresden and Swinemünde bombings above.
• By One should define I mean that the thesis Certainly it was less violent than the German one is true only for selected periods and areas, so it should be eventually proved as a general statement, it isn't certain.
• I tried to start this discussion here twice, without any reaction.

Xx236 (talk) 17:15, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Good question, and the answer lies in the Communist propaganda. Both Polish and Soviet Commies promoted the term "repatriation" because it was convenient for them. Using this term suggested that homes of Poles from Eastern Borderlands had always been located in former territories of Germany and Polish presence in the Soviet lands (since Sept 17, 1939) was temporary. In other words - Lwow and Wilno were not homeland of Poles, their real patria was in German provinces of Schlesien or Pommern and they returned there after generations. Stupid as it sounds, this was the official propaganda. Tymek (talk) 01:34, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

It did not only sound stupid, it was. And lethal, too. -- Matthead  DisOuß   11:26, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Polish minority in Lithuania

“Tygodnik Wileńszczyzny” [2] informs about a demand to remove Polish names of streets in Vilnius district municipality. M.K. removes my edits. Xx236 (talk) 15:19, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Medininkai

According to German Wiki 95% of the local population has Polish roots. M.K. removes this information. I bet he can find the number in Lithuanian sources, but he prefers to be consor. Is it true that Wikipedia is unreliable? Wow!Xx236 (talk) 15:27, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

German wiki, or any wiki, is not a reliable source per WP:RS. Find a reliable source and it will stay, but unreferenced wiki cruft cannot be defended.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 13:57, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

lt:Medininkų seniūnija informs: 3,2% lietuvių, 93,2% lenkų, 2,9% rusų No source. Now I'm not allowed to quote the apparently statistical office data but I have the right to quote less reliable data from a newspaper. What about removing all Lithuanian Wikipedia unsourced articles?Xx236 (talk) 14:38, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

If you want to edit Lithuanian Wikipeidia, I suggest discussing it there; this is for English Wikipedia discussion.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 14:44, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Do you have to be so nice?Xx236 (talk) 14:50, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Category:Polish Lithuanians

Is this category for Poles of Lithuanian origins, like Czesław Miłosz, or for Polish minority in Lithuanian Republic?Xx236 (talk) 09:46, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

The second, I believe, but that and relevant categories could use some cleanup.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 13:56, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Category:Universities and colleges in Poland

Is there a uniform format for people associated with Polish Universities? Eg, in Category:Jagiellonian University, there is Category:Alumni of Jagiellonian University (though I think this would be better called Category:Jagiellonian University alumni), but no Category:Jagiellonian University faculty. On the other hand, Category:University of Warsaw has what I would expect in terms of faculty/alumni (for the longest of times, even that was not good, but it finally got fixed a couple of months ago). As for Warsaw University of Technology, it's a mess: no Category:Warsaw University of Technology, no cat for faculty (no one notable there since 1826?), only the poorly named Category:Alumni of Warsaw University of Technology, with a single alumnus (!). Also, Category:Academics by university in Poland has only one subcategory (U. Warsaw)! At any rate, I could go on, but let me stop. This is a bit frustrating, since I run all the time into articles where I would like to fit in such cats -- for some countries, this is very well done, for others, much less so (see Category:People by university, Category:People by educational institution, Category:Academics by university, Category:Alumni by university or college for more on this). I'm willing to help if there is interest in this, but I figure I'd better ask, first. Turgidson (talk) 20:04, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Dzielnice

I've created an article on Testament of Bolesław III Krzywousty, and worked on some of articles form that period. How should we translate dzielnica? Currently we have two articles on Duchy, and two on Province:

• Duchy of Greater Poland
• Duchy of Masovia
• Silesian Province
• Seniorate Province

The latter is also reffered to as Senioral Province or Duchy of Cracow/Kraków; I don't think it is called 'Senioral Duchy'? Silesian Province is known as Duchy of Silesia (disambig). We still need an article on Sandomierz Duchy/Province. Sigh. A mess. As usual :) Help and comments appreciated! --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 23:57, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think the term Duchy of Sandomierz (Ksiestwo Sandomierskie) is the most popular. IMHO use either Province or Land of Sandomierz, as Ziemia Sandomierska seems to be frequently used. Tymek (talk) 17:40, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Land (ziemia) has a different meaning, I believe. Ziemia sandomierska is not the same thing as dzielnica sandomierska (although they may be close).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 21:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

A scan of GB indicates to me that "Silesian Province" is an ambiguous term phrasing that often refers to the Prussian provinces of Silesia, Lower Silesia, and Upper Silesia. "Duchy of Silesia", which is about the same information as "Silesian Province", is used more commonly in English.[3] I think it would be best to merge Duchy of Silesia and Silesian Province. Duchy of Silesia is currently an overlinked disambig page anyway, and the different concepts can be described at a merged page. Olessi (talk) 22:25, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable. Should we move current DoS to Dos (disambiguation)? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 02:31, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

The current DoS dab page does not conform to MOS:DAB. I think it would be best to merge "Silesian Province" (info about the medieval duchy) into "Duchy of Silesia" (the most common common phrasing in English). "Duchies of Silesia", including "Duchy of Upper and Lower Silesia", would be explained and linked to from "Duchy of Silesia". I don't see the need for a separate disambiguation page at all, actually. If necessary, the latter articles can be mentioned at the top of the merged article through WP:TMG. Olessi (talk) 21:23, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Could you do so? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:01, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Sure, I'll try to take a look at everything tonight or tomorrow. Olessi (talk) 22:19, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Czech Silesia

please observe the move history of Duchy of Opava and Nicholas I, Duke of Opava. Henq (talk) 22:26, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

See also Talk:Duchies of Silesia, and discussion pages of various Duchies affected by RM silliness. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:48, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

LOT Polish Airlines Flight 5055

I have created an article about Poland's worst airline disaster LOT Polish Airlines Flight 5055 any input will be appreciated. The article also can highlight the "quality" of goods produced in the USSR (and the small value of life in the USSR). Mieciu K (talk) 23:55, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. If you could expand it more, it could be DYKed! --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 01:58, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

An editor asks if WW2 would happen if not for pre-war Polish mass murder of German people

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Causes_of_World_War_II#Polish_pre-war_massacres_of_Germans Interested editors are welcomed to voice their opinion --Molobo (talk) 00:22, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh my. Such extreme revisionist/denialism attitude suprizes me even after years of dealing crackpot theories on Wiki. I'd suggest asking User:Kirill Lokshin for input, he may now if there are applicable policies to deal with such lunacy.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 02:00, 4 January 2008 (UTC)