Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Requests

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Questions for the Arbitration Committee

In the recently dismissed application of "Linguistic/Cultural Bias Towards United States in the article "Hacker", I specifically asked three questions be answered with regard to how English Wikipedia is governed and policy is enforced by people such as the Arbitration Committee. Seeing as the entire post has been deleted, I repeat the three questions here:

1) In terms of content, is English Wikipedia considered to be a vehicle for documenting the United States, or for documenting the entire English-speaking world?

2) Does the removal of a {{globalize}} with the reason of "spam", or non-US editors being told to "fuck off" when voicing their opinions just because they don't conform to the majority of the US editors already present, constitute a content problem?

3) How does Wikipedia guarantee that the content of other English-speaking countries, and non-IT people who don't edit on this system, makes it into articles when those kinds of editors are not present in the system in nearly as heavy numbers as the United States IT/Academia-related editors? Who actually enforces policies like Naming Conventions, Neutrality, and "Not a Democracy"?

Question (1) was not answered. Question (2) was directly answered as "Yes, we do think it's a content problem" as all ArbCom members who commented stated the same thing unanimously (as opposed to there being a problem of prejudice, racism, or intimidation, as claimed by me the filing party). Question (3) was not answered.

This is an important issue and requires a formal statement. Should ArbCom be made up of (and this seems exceptionally likely) people predominantly from the United States, how do the hundreds of millions of native non-US English readers actually know that their articles are monitored by people who know their culture and therefore are able to neutrally determine that bias is, or is not, actually occurring?

So, again, I am politely asking for anwers to questions (1) and (3).

Many Thanks in advance,

Andrew81446 (talk) 04:12, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Response by Sam and WAS 4.250

By my reckoning six out of the 15 arbitrators are British, and two of the remainder are not Americans, so only a minority are from the US. However, please be aware that the Arbitration committee does a very specific job and it does not include decisions about content. They are handled by the whole community collectively, under the 'five pillars' fundamental policies. As an observation, not everyone seems to have accepted that your interpretation about British usage of the word 'hacker' is a fair representation of the actual usage and interpretation. Guidance on the form of English to be used in articles is given in Wikipedia:Manual of Style#National varieties of English. Some disputes over British vs. American spellings have ended up in the list of lamest edit wars. Sam Blacketer (talk) 10:11, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

1. is English Wikipedia considered to be a vehicle for documenting the United States, or for documenting the entire English-speaking world? The English language Wikipedia aims to have useful claims backed by reliable sources on as many topics as we can manage.
2. Does the removal of a {{globalize}} with the reason of "spam", or non-US editors being told to "fuck off" when voicing their opinions just because they don't conform to the majority of the US editors already present, constitute a content problem? Sometimes.
3. How does Wikipedia guarantee that the content of other English-speaking countries, and non-IT people who don't edit on this system, makes it into articles when those kinds of editors are not present in the system in nearly as heavy numbers as the United States IT/Academia-related editors? Who actually enforces policies like Naming Conventions, Neutrality, and "Not a Democracy"? There is no guarantee. Anyone who wishes to try to enforce our policies and guidelines, or change them, is allowed to try. It is useful to gain consensus, find allies, give convincing arguments, and contribute to Wikipedia in other ways if you intend to be successful in doing this; because just as anyone can make an edit, anyone can revert. You don't have to be an admin. You do have to work well with others.
4. Should ArbCom be made up of (and this seems exceptionally likely) people predominantly from the United States No.
5. how do the hundreds of millions of native non-US English readers actually know that their articles are monitored by people who know their culture and therefore are able to neutrally determine that bias is, or is not, actually occurring? They can't know, anymore than they can know that is true of the New York Times or Britannica. WAS 4.250 (talk) 11:18, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Andrew81446 responds

Thanks for your responses. I must stress that when I asked these questions I wasn't asking about whether there is a "British contingent" on the committee or not; they were general questions aimed at establishing how Wikipedia can justify maintaining its highly respected international reputation for neutrality and self-governance. My observations are as follows:

1. "There is no guarantee. Anyone who wishes to try to enforce our policies and guidelines, or change them, is allowed to try."
   Given that there is no guarantee that the policies within the system are actually enforced by anybody, it is down to the editors themselves to adhere to the policy out of their own sense of obligation. Therefore, whether you can work well with others or not, should the majority of editors on a single article all not share that obligation, then consensus may be used to enforce any kind of content, regardless of what is actually going on in the world. Furthermore, there are no safeguards (over and above more editors from opposing viewpoints joining the system) for making sure that this situation doesn't happen.
2. "The English language Wikipedia aims to have useful claims backed by reliable sources on as many topics as we can manage.".
   It appears to me that Wikipedia is now unable to manage the neutrality of its English language content any more, and so should maybe change its name from "English" Wikipedia to something else. I can say this because no system that can manage its content would force a person to give up four months of their life (longer, actually, as ArbCom said that editors should return to lower-level mediation) to argue about something which, in their own country, is widely accepted. Requiring people to go through that kind of upheaval for the sake of documenting something which they don't have to argue about in their own country is a serious failing of the system.
3. "it is useful to gain consensus, find allies, give convincing arguments, and contribute to Wikipedia in other ways if you intend to be successful in doing this.". The most important part of that response for me is that consensus, and allies, should be found from among the majority of people currently outside of the system. The more people from outside the system who know how the system works, the more there will be who can potentially join, and the more editors there will be to ensure the neutrality of the system.
4. "They can't know, anymore than they can know that is true of the New York Times or Britannica."
   The New York Times is a US publication so people from all over the world know it is is a US-only publication so they know to caution all content within as being US-biased. This is of course correct, but question (3) wasn't about whether a publication with a specific national audience has to be neutral with respect to other countries. The question was about how Wikipedia, a service which specifically reaches out to an international audience, makes sure it actually is a neutral repository of information from the entire English-speaking world. Whether the predominantly IT-based people within Wikipedia think an interpretation is "fair" or not is not really the issue; the issue is about the fact that when it comes to documenting information, everything is what it is. It's that simple. Question (3) was about whether Wikipedia's administrators have the ability to apply the "everything is what it is" mentality over and above their own beliefs regardless of which country or industrial sector they are from. For example, Oxford University Press in the UK, Mirriam-Webster in the US, make it their business to make sure that their publications document what is and what isn't from the view of everybody (not an IT-based minority) within whichever region is being documented, which is why they are the most solidly verifiable sources in existence. It appears in some casees that documentation of "it is what it is" has all but been forgotten.

Wikipedia's biggest intended (and actual) audience is non-IT people who make up the majority of the English speaking world and teachers and local governments around the world are clammering to use it. As Wikpedia editors, though, all these people are effectively eunuchs as they don't know how to login to a computer system, mark-up a page, use a version control system, and effectively argue against professionals who spend their entire waking lives doing just that in chatrooms, bulletin boards and on academic networks. Ordinary people may not have the time to contribute, or employment/other local restrictions may prevent it. However, every single one of those people is a contributor to their communities and their culture, and so guarantees must exist to ensure that everybody can be documented neutrally within the system should Wikipedia actually be aspiring to be such a service in the first place. I (and indeed, everyone in the world) assumes that Wikipedia is aspiring to be such a service, and that these guarantees already exist, but your statements say that they do not and this misunderstanding ought to be corrected within the community at large outside of the system.

Any kind of system that relies on consensus is a democracy. Consensus and Democracy go hand in hand; you can't have one without the other. If Wikipedia is not a democracy then it should be possible for a single editor to still (with appropriate sources) override the majority simply because that editor is documenting "it is what it is". Being able to "convince" has virtually nothing to do with a single person's reasoning skills and virtually everything to do with whether the people listening want to accept what is being said. People can ignore anything they like, even if it's right, is actually happening, and is documented and believed as such by hundreds of millions of people. Therefore, being able to "convince" is a fairly ineffective and difficult tool to use given the ease with which a big stick like "consensus" can be wielded. This leads me to conclude that, given the deliberate omission of overall control in the system, Wikipedia's core policies are contradicting each other and it is affecting actual content correctness. I don't have enough time on this earth to be checking (and possibly arguing about) the 2,000,000 or so articles currently in English Wikipedia and devoting up to four months of my life fixing each article. That would take up to 700,000 years. But then one person shouldn't have to do the work that a system expects an entire nation to be doing. A system that claims to be aimed at everybody should not be prohibitively difficult to edit (and therefore inaccessible) to the majority of its own audience. However, if that is the reality, then such a system should have enforceable controls in place to make sure that the entire system can be fixed at least within the lifetime of most human beings.

This concludes my observations, and my questions with regard to this thread. I thank you all for your time.

Andrew81446 (talk) 12:26, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Response by Avruch

Wikipedia is not dominated by IT people. I'm not sure what caused you to come to this conclusion, but as far as I am aware there is no data or anecdotal evidence to suggest that most contributors come from an IT background. Wikipedia is not difficult to edit. It requires a basic familiarity with web browsing, and not too much more beyond that. That would be why many millions of contributors have edited - far more, I suspect, than you will find in the IT community of the English speaking world.

There are no guarantees on content, nor could there be while still maintaining the principle of an "encyclopedia anyone can edit." If you find that there is a problem with an article, then engage in fixing it. You may run into opposition. Since your opinions do not dominate, it is incumbent upon you to convince others to adopt your point of view. If you fail to do so, it does not point up an inherent problem in the concept of "convincing" (though there may be many). It simply means that there are those who disagree with your view of "what is is." If you can't see that content is more complex than "it is what it is" then you are missing more than anyone here can explain to you. No one required you to spend four months fruitlessly arguing that "Hacker" should be used in a particular manner, or based on a particular definition with which you are familiar. You complain that you should not have to convince others of a fact which is simply accepted in your country, and yet this mindset is ironically exactly what you seem to rail against.

Finally, while we appreciate your contributions you must know that while Wikipedia is the encyclopedia anyone is free to edit, it is also the encyclopedia anyone is free to not edit. It is not uncommon for editors to take issues of WIkipedia content far more seriously than is perhaps advisable. This seems to be the case here, and perhaps you should take some time away and return to Wikipedia with a new perspective. We recognize that there is an issue of system bias, and that the prevalence of editors from a small number of cultures can introduce problems of perspective in our content. You are welcome to join us in combating this problem, but its existence is human nature and a product of reality and not our great failure. Avruch ^T 00:08, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Andrew81446 responds

1. "Wikipedia is not dominated by IT people"
   According to the Systemic Bias project within Wikipedia, which was based on actual research, "The average Wikipedian on English Wikipedia is (1) a man, (2) technically inclined...". Seeing as this is a computer system, and not (1) a mechanical based system involving gears, pulleys, or any kind of automotive component, or (2) a biochemical system containing elements such as gasses or liquids or any geneticly-derived material, the phrase "technically inclined" can be reasonably asserted to mean "those with technical knowledge about, or connected with, computers", or more simply put, IT-familiar or IT-industry related people.
2. While Wikipedia is the encyclopedia anyone is free to edit, it is also the encyclopedia anyone is free to not edit
   That is perfectly true, providing that the equal and opposite message is actively promoted amongst its readers. That is, that readers are free to accept or not to accept information that appears due to the fact that editors may all come from one region and so can bias or influence any and all information that appears on it. Readers cannot make a proper choice to ignore content on Wikipedia if they are not made aware of the choice in the first place. And seeing as I see no such cautionary note on the front page of Wikipedia it can be reasonably argued that the desperate situation that exists with a lack of editors is not being transmitted to the readers. As Wikipedia actively promotes itself into schools and local government, children around the world are allowed (or are actively promoted) to use Wikipedia instead of consulting local works. If you already have children, or choose to have children in the future, I am sure one of your primary concerns is making sure that what they learn at school is in line with what you, as a parent, think is best for your child. Teachers who implicitly trust Wikipedia are using it to teach our children something that really could have no bearing on what goes on in the area of the world where we live simply because of the bias created by editors of the system, and the system itself supporting such bias. While you as a parent have a choice then you can always correct anything your child learns once you have an opportunity. However, should usage of information on Wikipedia become government educational policy (e.g. exam moderators being allowed to consult Wikipedia to check "university entrance" exam responses), your right to teach your child whatever you like will effectively disappear as they will have to answer questions on exam papers in a way that corresponds to what appears on Wikipedia. And you will then have to implicitly trust that Wikipedia delivers the neutrality and balanced information that its policies were designed to deliver, regardless of what you actually want to teach your children about the environment in which they are raised and grow up in. Within this context, do you think that anybody is free "not to edit"?

You may think that the information on Wikipedia may reflect your particular environment, and reflects the culture that you wish to instil into your children, but are you really sure? The only way to be sure is to check all 2,200,000 articles which would take up to 700,000 years (as I said). Of course, you don't have to check them all, but then you only have yourself (and human nature) to blame if United States educational policy (for example) advocates use of Wikipedia and your child is being force-fed (for example) United Kingdom culture because the bias in certain articles wasn't able to be fixed.

This is why I said that Wikipedia has potentially already become a system that cannot control itself. However, it isn't necessary to control the system if readers are armed with choice, and are made aware of having that choice in the first place. If my efforts within the system to simply document what goes on in my country are meeting with such opposition from other editors within the system, then perhaps I should take a break and devote my time to making readers in my country aware of how content is constructed, thus empowering them with the choice of whether to accept information regarding things that they generally turned to Wikipedia in the first place to find out about. Seeing as such people would be coming from my community, I wouldn't have nearly as much trouble relating my thoughts due to the "lack of skill" in being able to "convince" people that has been remarked upon in my dealings with other editors within the system.

Andrew81446 (talk) 12:34, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Response by Avruch

I don't know any teachers, and haven't heard of any, who "implicitly trust Wikipedia." Quite the opposite, in fact. I think we are far, far away from the point where entrance exams are based on or checked against Wikipedia. Wikipedia isn't gospel - its words are not revelatory, and anyone is free to ignore anything on any article. You are making the argument that because some people won't think to take something written on the encyclopedia anyone can edit with a grain of salt, we should post giant disclaimers on every page saying "CAREFUL, AMERICANS MAY HAVE WRITTEN THIS!" Sorry, no - this is a free to edit website. Parsing it further, it is (a) free, (b) editable by anyone and (c) a website. Any one of these three things by themselves typically clue folks in regarding reliability. That you or others lack this clue perhaps points out a problem with your pre-Wikipedia education system, not Wikipedia. Coming from my biased, American and IT-related background perhaps I have an advantage in this area - but nothing on or related to Wikipedia has anything to do with the "culture I want instilled in my children" - except, perhaps, the principle of freedom that you are implicitly arguing against.

Regarding technically inclined and my dispute of your assertion that Wikipedians are generally or universally members of the IT-community - the research you refer to is a single survey from 3 years ago on the German Wikipedia. Attempting to apply broad conclusions from this research to English Wikipedia or any Wikimedia project, 3 years later, is doomed to fail. Arguments for controls and sweeping changes to inculcate some sort of objective truth should be based on an accurate reading of the research you cite.

You don't address my point specific to your complaint (the Hacker article). You say that you shouldn't have to spend 4 months arguing to have an article reflect what is commonly accepted in your country, and I am telling you that this point of view is exactly why you have lost that crusade. Further, you appear to be criticizing that position and taking it at the same time.

Take a look at WP:DEADLINE. The policies here aren't "designed to deliver" Wikipedia as if it were a finished product on an assembly line. They are ad-hoc (but well thought out) attempts to add to and improve upon our content over time, a task that will not result in a perfect product anytime soon if ever. Feel free to read Britannica or some other reference in the mean time, only Wikipedia is subject to the biases we've identified here. Avruch ^T 15:52, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Inactive Arb removal process

Around the last election, Jimbo encouraged the community (IIRC) to develop a method for removing inactive Arbitrators between elections. I don't know if this has been discussed and resolved already, if it has can someone point me to where? If it is still unresolved, it seems like now is the perfect time to bring this problem to a close. All Arbitrators are currently active, and any decision on future inactive Arbitrators will not be seen as directed at a particular member of the Committee. Additionally, of course, any decision that requires the assent of the Committee on its own constitution will have the benefit of a majority of the entire panel rather than a subset of those who are active. Thanks, Avruch ^T 00:12, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

This was being discussed internally by the committee, and I had circulated a draft proposal, but no conclusion has been reached. I agree that the matter should be discussed now when it is hypothetical, rather than later on in the context of a specific arbitrator who encounters availability problems. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:21, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Would you be willing to publicize this proposal? And for clarification on how to proceed, would you say that this issue will be decided by a consensus of the Committee or a consensus of the community, including the Committee members as individuals? I'm not too bothered by it as no action has been taken, but I'm not sure a private discussion about a community policy is necessarily the best choice. Avruch ^T 00:53, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

It was part of Jimbo's instruction when appointing the new arbitrators that we formulate such a policy. If I remember correctly it was the arbitrators who were instructed to come up with something workable; remember that the Arbitration Policy is not under the control of the community. The new arbitrators needed to settle in and there were some very intense and difficult discussions which have taken a great deal of time. I personally feel that a simple process is the best. Sam Blacketer (talk) 00:56, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok, thank you for the clarification. I've been peripherally involved in both intensely difficult cases, so I can understand the delay. I agree, too, that the process should be as simple and straightforward as possible. Avruch ^T 01:02, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

There's nothing inherently confidential about the inactivity policy (though there could conceivably be a private reason for temporary inactivity of a particular arbitrator), so I'd have no problem posting a proposal here, subject to what my colleages have to say about the matter. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:07, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Mikkalai

Re this change to "accept" by Newyorkbrad: I hope it's not out of line for me to comment on this here, and I make no comment on whether you accept the case nor on whether you consider Mikkalai's behaviour to be acceptable, but your comment "no indication that Mikkalai is willing to consider modifying his behavior at this time" does not seem to me to accurately reflect the edit by Mikkalai which came a few hours after the edit you referred to but before your post, so I wonder whether you hadn't seen this edit, or perhaps you didn't understand what I think Mikkalai meant by it. By (almost completely) blanking his talk page, Mikkalai was making a move towards conforming with the requests being made of him. When I saw that, I thought that you had been wise to wait. But I was disappointed that in your response you gave no indication of recognizing this gesture from Mikkalai. --Coppertwig (talk) 14:56, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I hadn't noticed it and I hope that the fact that Mikka has reacted negatively to my reluctant accept comment won't undo any progress that has been made. I don't want to lose the services of any editor or administrator, so long as he or she is willing to maintain a reasonable level of civility and adhere to basic elements of policy. If there can be a drama reduction and avoidance of the need for a case right now I am all for it. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:23, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

To be fair, the edit that Coppertwig refers to looks quite different in isolation than it does in the context of the previous several edits Mikkalai made to that page. Following the notification of the ArbCom case, he made a succession of quick edits to his pledge of muteness, refining the text. Then a couple of hours later he blanked the page. Some eight hours after that, he restored the page, adding a comment at the bottom that attacked Newyorkbrad specifically. An hour later the page was blanked again (this is Coppertwig's link). These actions, plus the comment in his subsequent edit don't suggest to me that any of this is reflective of someone "conforming with the requests being made of him", as Coppertwig suggests. Quite the contrary, in fact. -- Hux (talk) 22:18, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I apologize -- I linked to the wrong diff by mistake. I'm not sure whether it makes any difference, but I meant this diff, where Mikkalai "simplif[ied]" his talk page, which is the edit which came, as I said above, before the post by Newyorkbrad that I referred to above.

What Hux refers to as the "comment at the bottom that attacked Newyorkbrad specifically" appears to have been in response to Newyorkbrad's post that I mentioned above, which seemed to ignore Mikkalai's action of erasing. It mirrored Newyorkbrad's language ("bizarre"), and was deleted less than an hour afterwards, presumably as a regretful retraction of the comment. --Coppertwig (talk) 00:31, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

When Mikka talks about "witch-hunting", "[]loaded question" and "cornered wolf", he seems to be telling us that he feels he's being put in situations where he has no viable options. I don't know the whole situation and I don't know why he feels this way, but I feel his desperation. Everybody, I think it's time for A nice cup of tea and a sit down. (See March 2008.) --Coppertwig (talk) 13:02, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Ignore all rules

The original version of Ignore all rules was, "If rules make you nervous and depressed, and not desirous of participating in the Wiki, then ignore them and go about your business." (Lee Daniel Crocker, April 17, 2002)

Apparently rules bother Mikkalai; or the mechanisms for enforcing rules bother him. In the spirit of Ignore all rules, the primary Wikipedian policy, I think perhaps it is incumbent on us to use our powers of creative thinking to try to come up with some way, consistent with the goals of the project and the comfort level of other users, to allow our cornered wolf Mikkalai to edit without being bothered by a lot of rule-enforcing actions. Mikkalai is helping with this by raising his level of civility and by inviting others to revert his actions, which he says he will not dispute.

I invite everyone to do some brainstorming and try to come up with solutions or with partial solutions which can be fit together like the pieces of a puzzle to make a full solution.

As soon as I thought about posting this call for creative thinking a few hours ago, an idea occurred to me, and I present it here as my proposal. I had mentioned a few days ago that I had been thinking about it, and just realized a few hours ago that, given the current state of Mikkalai's talk page, which still discourages communication but is more civil, that this idea is both necessary and relatively acceptable.

Proposal: that a banner be posted on Mikkalai's talk page inviting people with questions or complaints about Mikkalai's admin actions to post their comments on my talk page. I will then try to explain the reasoning behind Mikkalai's actions, or if I am unable to do so to my satisfaction, then I will try to find someone to either explain or revert the action. People with complaints about ordinary editing by Mikkalai can simply revert the edits, since Mikkalai has invited them to do so. I hereby offer to take this on as an ongoing responsibility, reserving the right to resign at any time.

I would post such a banner now, (example), except that I'm not sure whether Mikkalai would perceive it to be a grave disrespect. I'm now posting a notice on my talk page stating that questions and complaints about Mikkalai's admin actions are welcome there. --Coppertwig (talk) 01:41, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I am Russian, that is I was born in Russia but grew up all over the world. That helps me understand where Michaeli is coming from and what he is trying to say. Rules are not made of stone! We need to be flexable and consider human feeling and not just go by the book. We should think of the spirit of the project not the letter. How do good editors who are familiar with a aprticular are come to the project and stay here, if at their first visit we bite them call them Trolls, Spammers, vandals, and etc. If anyone protests we invoke civil and call them disrupt. We wave a flag of COI if any one has any relationship to a give n topic. Should we have donuts backers write abour Medieval history? Rules are great and necessary but IGNORE is just important and needs to be respected. Igor Berger (talk) 02:03, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Igor: I have a lot of respect for your argument that the spirit of Wikipedia's policies is more important than the letter. The trouble is that it overlooks the fact that Mikkalai is all too happy to ignore policy one minute, in order to justify his own actions, and then throw the rulebook at someone the next, in order to justify the wrongness of theirs. I also think that it's been made plain that he's done a number of things that ignore both the spirit and the letter of "the law". Imo, nobody should be allowed to hide behind IAR and then accuse people of being "wikilawyers" whenever they point out that the editor is acting far outside the spirit of Wikipedia. -- Hux (talk) 04:14, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I just think he needs some time to cool down and blow off his discontent. It's like he is on strike for too many things that went wrong or too many chalanges to his POV. I say give him some breathing room and he will be back to his own Michaeli, whatever that is..:) IMO, just starting this ArbCom request may not have been such a good idea because that is what he expected us to do and we are proving him right. When someone puts your back to the wall, what do you do if not fight back for your own survival. Time heals all wounds! Igor Berger (talk) 05:00, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Think of him as a big Grizzly bear on whom you have stumbled on while walking in the woods. The bear gets on his hind paws and is formidable. You are scared and start screaming at the bear but the bear gets very angry and launches at you. Why? Because the bear feels threatened by you, and Michaeli feels threatened by the system. Now if you would be quiet and just stand still for a while the bear would come back down on all his paws sniff a bit at you turn around and walk away. Hence, when attacked by a bear play dead! Same here, if we leave Michaeli alone he will back down and see us as wikilove people not like someone who questions his authority and his rights to exist. Do not wrestle with a Russian Grizzly bear! Igor Berger (talk) 05:15, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Ah, good. Mikkalai has posted instructions on his talk page which (arguably) make my proposal above unnecessary. (Thanks, Mikka!!) I think he has managed to design his talk page so that everything can be worked out comfortably without conflict and without needing communication from him. Inviting people to revert and stating that he won't dispute the reverts is a key element of that.

I think our goal here is de-escalation. I think we need to agree on an arrangement which, while possibly not 100% satisfactory in all ways, is nevertheless sufficiently satisfactory that we can close down the arbitration request, stop having AN/I threads (unless something serious arises) and leave Mikkalai in peace. Then after a period of time maybe Mikkalai will feel comfortable and resume "normal service" and we can, I hope, arrive eventually at a completely satisfactory solution.

Is it now sufficiently satisfactory? People could argue that we don't want a lot of admins doing the same thing. Never mind -- that's one of these OTHERSTUFFEXISTS arguments. And possibly it would be fine if other people do the same thing, including the part about inviting reverts and not disputing them. People could argue that it adds more work for the people monitoring the noticeboards Mikkalai is directing his complainants to. Maybe the amount of work will be small; maybe the people won't mind. Maybe it will only be for a short time. People could argue that one problem with this system is that Mikkalai won't get feedback to prevent him from making similar mistakes many times. I argue that Mikkalai can choose to get feedback by looking to see whether his actions were reverted; this may feel more comfortable than actively getting involved in conflicts. I also argue that since Mikkalai is said to have had "years of excellent work as an editor and as an admin" that little or no feedback is necessary; that he already knows what's acceptable, what's mildly annoying, what's out of line etc. and can continue for a period of time without feedback, especially if given space to calm down. --Coppertwig (talk) 13:24, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe that in general, admins should follow high standards, communicate etc. I'm asking for special consideration in this case out of compassion because it seems to be needed. --Coppertwig (talk) 13:34, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Reply to statement by MBisanz

Admins are allowed to make (a small number of) mistakes. One of the four issues you raise is a page deletion which Mikkalai subsequently undeleted after it was brought up at AN/I. Resolved; no need to bring this up at arbitration. For the other three, you give no indication that they were mentioned either on Mikkalai's talk page or at AN/I. It seems inappropriate to me to bring them up here without discussing them at one of those places first. For all four of these problems, I think Mikkalai's current system would work to allow such actions, if inappropriate, to be reverted. --Coppertwig (talk) 13:31, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I've changed my vote on the main RfAr page to declining the case for now because it seems that some progress is being made, and in light of the factors mentioned by a number of users. If the problems recur or continue, then a new request for arbitration can be filed, but I truly hope this will not become necessary. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:10, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

That was why I elaborated what I felt the issues were. Since the arbs were saying they were basing accepting on the allegations of admin abuse, and someone had pointed out that the blocking feature already provides a form of notification, I figured I should list what I believed were the improper actions, so no one would claim I exaggerated to get the case accepted. MBisanz ^talk 21:38, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Issues with BetacommandBot - ArbCom case?

I think everyone in ArbCom knows about the issues with BetacommandBot.

BetacommandBot was blocked many times because of bugs and other things. Many users complained about BetacommandBot. You can see many AN/I threads about BetacommandBot. Last time, there was a page for discussion about BetacommandBot, but it got deleted as an "attack page".

Suggestions to improve BetacommandBot, like making the bot "open source", got ignored by Betacommand. Last time, there was a case about Betacommand and ArbCom found that he abused bots and desysopped him. He still abuses bots. For example, he used BetacommandBot to spam a user's talk page and make 5000 edits to the Main Page so it cannot be deleted. Also, he is incivil and attacks people who complain about BetacommandBot.

It is quite clear that Betacommand will not fix his bot. When anyone complains about Betacommand or his bot, there is a group of users who will always defend him and accuse them of a lot of things, like incivility, harassing and trying to destroy the fair use policy.

There is a huge mess. I hope ArbCom can help with the mess. I want to file a case, but I am not sure whether ArbCom thinks there is enough "content issue" and "conduct issue" to look into. So I want to ask ArbCom for some feedback here, before I file a case. If ArbCom says "go ahead and file a case", I will file a case. I can find a lot of evidence for all the things I say above.

Maybe ArbCom can also clarify what (issues with BetacommandBot, Betacommand's conduct and other's conduct) they think is "conduct issue" that they will look into and what is "content issue" that they will not look into. The group of users who defend BetacommandBot, I must say to you, if there is an ArbCom case, I think ArbCom will also look into your accusings of incivility and harassing and if those who complained about BetacommandBot really did that, they will also be punished.

--Kaypoh (talk) 15:06, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Whether or not Arbitration is to be filed is immaterial, but I just feel that there isn't a real problem with BetacommandBot. There's also my concern that filing an Arbitration case would prevent BetacommandBot from meeting the deadline. I feel there is a lack of communication from both "sides" if you will and nobody is clear about what BetacommandBot is planning (other than phases). I feel people are still mostly concerned with the fact that the deadline is pretty much solely being dictated by BetacommandBot and that BetacommandBot and the operator tend to draw a lot of problems - some for good reason, some for bad reason.

That said, if there is to be a case, then I think an RfC would be filed first. And if there is to be a case, I hope that the case is done quickly because there is a deadline to meet. x42bn6 Talk Mess 15:32, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

x42bn6, I welcome an ArbCom case, it might finally mean that I can get concrete proof that BCBot is correct and is enforcing policy. This would allow me to point to the case and stop the harrasment and constant request for me/BCBot to be blocked and or banned. and I can get back to doing what I do best, improving Wikipedia. β^_command 20:44, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

It would be more correct to say that BCBot is enforcing policy for a small subsets of images where failure to conform to a specific part of the policy can be detected by a bot. This is valuable work, but by no means enough. For true, Wikipedia-wide enforcement of non-free image policy, much more is needed. Summarising that as "BCBot is enforcing policy" is, in many contexts, misleading as people (wrongly) take that to mean that BCBot is enforcing the entire policy for all images. Betacommand, if you feel that people are harassing you, would you consider filing an arbitration case against them? Carcharoth (talk) 00:55, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

x42bn6 - regarding meeting the deadline (23 March 2008), Betacommand has said that most of the tagging of older images is now complete. The only thing that would be affected by an arbitration case would be the checking and tagging of current uploads. That doesn't require as large a volume of edits, so could be done by another bot. For the record, I don't think any arbitration case is needed, but am also on the record as saying that it is still, in my opinion, an open question as to whether BetacommandBot's tagging of images under NFCC#10c has overall improved Wikipedia. On balance, I think it has, but only just. And I am currently trying to document what happened and what the impact was, though that sort of thing is difficult, if not impossible, to quantify. Carcharoth (talk) 00:55, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I think someone from ArbCom should say something. --Kaypoh (talk) 05:57, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment. The question that must be considered in this matter is: would asking the Arbitration Committee to examine this case benefit the project as a whole? For the most part, I would agree with that question: whilst the often intense nature of Arbitration would make it difficult to notice an immediate improvement in the situation, I believe, out with the short-term, a ruling on the case would help—either, if abuse of the bot has taken place, to take down a troublesome bot (that word choice used as a hypothetical for a ruling against BC), or, if abuse of the bot has been deemed not to have taken place, then, as Betacommand states above, to resolve the situation once and for all, and to allow him to return to running his Bot.

As to whether the Committee will/(in my opinion) should accept this case, then I would also suggest that they should—whilst this is only my humble opinion, the Community has been divided on the matter of this Bot for some time now, and prior dispute resolution has been all but exhausted. This dispute is very much reaching its last legs, and is now reaching the point where an Arbitration case is prudent. AGK (contact) 07:41, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

And as I've said before, I think the question is moot. The big tagging runs of 10,000+ images are over, and it is only current uploads that are being tagged. Most of the problems were from legacy images, and that is mostly a done deal, and there is not much point going back over that. However, if Betacommand came up with another way to find and tag images, and he continued to run his bot in the same way with the same problems (sporadic large-scale runs without notifications of the runs, and the same standard of explanations and communications) then there may be a case to answer. His phase 4, for example, where he proposes using the bot to remove images that "have a rationale" in one or more other article from any articles for which they "lack a rationale" (where, of course, "lack a rationale" refers to images that fail mention one or more of the articles they are used in - which is only a subset of those images lacking rationales). Or his proposal (based on a suggestion of mine, though it is not a new idea) to find images that don't use rationale templates, and get humans to check those to see if the rationale is OK. I would hope that whatever non-free image work BetacommandBot does next, over-and-above the normal 10c tagging, gets discussed and properly implemented this time. Doing a full analysis of the numbers first, using more informative and less aggressive tagging, doing things at a slow enough pace to avoid backlogs building up, and working with and finding humans to help do the work needed. What I think is really needed is a way for people to indicate that an image has been checked and its rationale deemed OK. There needs to be stability at some point. Carcharoth (talk) 09:06, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Okey, NFCC 10c was over, several days ago in fact, in fact, its now split off into a separate bot function. That question is moot. But now the issue of cat changing has come up. Per this diff, if admins are forcing a user to violate the BLP policy (I'm still trying to figure out how, given that Bot policy specifically prohibits bots from editing categories relating to people), that seems like something Arbcom would be very interested in. Also, I'm beginning to wonder why this same bot keeps causing these real and unrelated issues (NFCC spamming, mainpage run-up, catting and not fixing it till blockd again). Once is a mistake, twice is explainable, but by the Xth time, I really have trouble understanding. MBisanz ^talk 20:44, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

A proposal - Matthew Hoffman solution

Seeing as the Arbitration Committee has decided to abandon the Highways case (a shame, really) would they be open to suspending the case for 30 days so that a formal mediation can take place? If the mediation fails, then the case can be resumed. --Rschen7754 (T C) 01:34, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I would not hold up Matthew Hoffman as a case worthy of emulation. It was a mess from start to finish. Jehochman ^Talk 01:41, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Some editors disagree. I think that case was handled very well under the circumstances. —Whig (talk) 02:03, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

It was messier than it should have needed to be. I think Vanished User missed several chances to keep it relatively neat. Heck, we didn't even need a case, IMO, but Vanished User also managed to make it sound as though there was still a dispute between admins before the case was even filed. Had he not done that, there would never have been a case. GRBerry 02:09, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

This is the case, in my opinion. Vanished User set the pace of the proceeding and the result. —Whig (talk) 02:12, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Well I'm only suggesting a case suspension and a formal mediation. Not anything else from that case. --Rschen7754 (T C) 03:06, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Could the committee please respond? --Rschen7754 (T C) 06:57, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I preface this statement by noting that I have zero knowledge of the Highways case, but plenty of knowledge of Matthew Hoffman. If the Committee were to allow a suspension for mediation (or anything else), Rschen7754, you should ask for some sort of undertaking that they will the slightest bit of attention to the results. After all, the MH precedent is allow the community time to put forward a view and if it shows that the community believes that the case is going in completely the wrong direction, then ignore them and keep going. EdChem (talk) 09:47, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

It also shows that failure to work with the Arbitration Committee, and failure to accept the best of a bad situation, doesn't really help. There is a danger here that a myth will be started that Arbcom were completely in the wrong in the MatthewHoffman case, when in fact they did several things to try and fix or improve the situation, and several reasonable solutions were offered, but for various reasons things spiralled out of control. That arbitration case going out of control was due to many factors, not all of which were under the control of the Arbcom or the community. That's my reading of what happened there. Carcharoth (talk) 10:29, 7 March 2008 (UTC)