Talk:Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

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Advocates teaching intelligent design creationism in the science classroom

From http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117981021.html?categoryid=1019&cs=1&query=expelled

"I'm hoping that (schools) will at least allow in science classes someone to say, 'What if it's not Darwinism, but what if there was some intelligent designer who created the universe?"

First of all, Ben seems to not understand that "Darwinism" does not have anything to do with the universe. Cosmology is not biology Ben, if you're going to attack "big science" you should at least take an introductory science class first. Otherwise you'll look like an idiot. Secondly, it would seem Ben is in fact advocating teaching IDC in the classroom. I believe there was some debate on that subject previously. When a guy who's saying we should teach IDC in science class cannot tell the difference between "Darwinism" and cosmology is it any wonder people are hostile to seeing this nonsense taught in out public school rooms? I think it was Kevin Padian who said "ID makes you stupid" I'm thinking maybe he's on to something.

I wonder if all of Expelled is this riduculous, confusing biology with cosmology? I seem to recall Stein being interviwed and saying "Darwinism cannot answer how life began!" as if he was onto something. Animal Husbandry cannot explain how life began either, that is a different branch of science. Here is the challenge, how do we incorporate/document how petently wrong Ben is without coming off like we're hostile to him. The readership should see that Ben does not even understand fundamental biology, or prhaps he's lying and saying crazy stuff like this to fUrther his cause. I prefer thinking he's just ignorant (on matters of science) and not a liar. Maybe we can kick around some ideas of how to incorporate this in the article in a NPOV manner. Angry Christian (talk) 00:58, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I know from Win Ben Stein's money he is not a complete dope. He is also a lawyer, so he has to understand why you shouldnt identify the creator etc. He also is a practicing Jew, and these intelligent design people are a front for fundamentalist jerks that want to pop Jews in the oven. He has to understand all this. He is not stupid. I am wondering if he is not just taking their money and making them look incredibly stupid by playing along with them. So I frankly have my doubts that Stein is actually believing any of this. I think it is a very very clever way to undercut these flakes.--Filll (talk) 01:21, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

"and these intelligent design people are a front for fundamentalist jerks that want to pop Jews in the oven." -- can you support this? I'm not familiar with any Christian, "fundamentalist" or otherwise, that hates Jews. I'm aware that antisemitism may have been a problem in our past, but I don't think it's been something that has been an issue for a long time. Even AiG, a creationist organization, makes this statement: "I don’t know where you could get the idea that the Bible fosters anti-Semitism. You could not have studied the Bible at all to have this idea. Indeed the Bible, including the New Testament, was written by Jews. How could it be anti-Semitic!?"[1] -- if creationists, who are considered to be more extreme than the ID movement, are against antisemitism, then why should I believe the ID movement is antisemitic? Besides, what does this have to do with the article?  —CobraA1 18:09, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

The relations between fundamentalist Christians and jews is an interesting one. Most of them still hang on to the "christ killer" pathos and don't care for Jews personally. On the other hand, these same people strongly support the existence of Israel. At first glance, this might seem incongruous. You have to realize that the reason most of them support Israel is because they feel that the end times are approaching, and the end times cannot happen if there's no Israel. They also believes that the Jews will be the first ones wiped out during the tribulation. So Filll isn't quite right, but he's in the ball-park. (Note that this group includes: Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye) Raul654 (talk) 18:21, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Raul654 is right on the money. Remember Dr. Bailey Smith, president of the Southern Baptists stating that God does not hear the prayers of a Jew. And Falwell stating the same thing. And Fred Phelps protesting at the holocaust museum in DC. And the statements of various evangelical and fundamentalist leaders that the AntiChrist is a Jew. And suggestions that the unsaved to be slaughtered in Left Behind: Eternal Forces include Jews. And on and on and on... They support Israel because the Jews have to be in Israel to fulfill the prophecy of the end of the world they believe, but all the Jews will then die if they remain Jewish, according to their version of the prophecy.--Filll (talk) 18:33, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, I see no Biblical support for hating Jews, so I'll have to disagree with them. It seems to me that the meaning of the words "evangelical" and "fundamentalist" are very different from what they used to be - it used to be they had very specific meanings, which have been lost and now people throw them around without respect for what they actually used to mean. "Fundamentalist" in particular means somebody believes in the five fundamentals of Christianity, which have nothing to do with how somebody views those with the Jewish faith. Personally, I think Israel has the right to exist, but not for the same reasons. For one thing, I'm not going to advocate genocide, and I think they have a long and deep cultural history that is certainly worth preserving. In addition, is there really any reason for anybody to advocate that they cease to exist? I'd never advocate destroying a nation without a very, very good reason for doing so.  —CobraA1 11:47, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

If you read Martin Luther on the subject you'll find that he gave some very influential reasons. Evangelical has long covered a wide range of opinions, both agreeing with and opposing evolution. The fundamentalists in the US initiated the anti-evolution movement in the 1920s. However, your own beliefs aren't significant in terms of this discussion page, which is about ways to improve the article. Got any proposals? . .. dave souza, talk 12:51, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Two points (1) This attitude exists. Educate yourself. (2)This has nothing to do with this article, except tangentially, so any further comments on this topic should be summarily deleted from this talk page.--Filll (talk) 18:17, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

The left behind video game has been criticised by many Christian groups. Yes, I do know that historically Christians have been anti-semitic... which makes no sence becasue Jesus was Jewish and so were the first believers. Thankfully it seems like my fellow Christians have begun to understand that in the past 100 years or so. Saksjn (talk) 19:30, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Where the previous discussion began to veer offtopic

It should be mentioned that the teaching of religous views is illegal in US public schools. But is it illegal to question the soundness of evolution? The movie attempts to show how those that question evolution are attacked. Not just ID believers. Whoever comments next: please keep this on topic, I'm not trying to support ID here or trying to incite a conversation about the 1'st ammendment like the thread that got off topic. I'm simply suggesting this: we should state that creationism is illegal to teach, but should also state at some point in the article something about those questioning evolution, not supporting ID, are also discriminated against. We would have to phrase it very carefully so it would be NPOV. Saksjn (talk) 20:26, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Do you have a WP:RS for this? And give an exact example of a sentence you want changed, with cites.--Filll (talk) 20:45, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

It should be mentioned that the teaching of religious views is illegal in US public schools. - this is false. While you said that you don't want to talk about the Constition, it's rather hard to respond to what you say without pointing out that your argument is based on a complete and total misunderstanding of what the Constitution says.

Teaching religion in a theology class is fine. The Constitution prohibits the government from making laws respecting the establishment of religion. To that end, teaching religion as if it were fact in a science class is unconstitutional. It's the difference between teaching about the existence of something, and advocating its beliefs. Raul654 (talk) 22:17, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Have a look at the legal background, as shown on the timeline of intelligent design. Legitimate scientific questioning of science is possible, but teaching 'tailored to the principles' of a particular religious sect or group of sects is unconstitutional. Kitzmiller pointed up the illegitimacy of the "teach the controversy" trick. . . dave souza, talk 21:36, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I too would like an RS for "[people] questioning evolution, not supporting ID, are also discriminated against". Otherwise you are going to be ignored. Additonally, you will have to explain the relevance to "Expelled" which focuses only on one crowd, ID. It doesn't sully itself with other creationists, nor other outspoken critics of evolution.--ZayZayEM (talk) 01:50, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I would dispute the contention that "those that question evolution are attacked."

• An obvious counterexample disproving this contention is Stephen Jay Gould, whose Punctuated equilibrium hypothesis "questioned" orthodox evolutionary theory. While his hypothesis was treated with healthy skepticism, he was not "attacked" for it.
• I would rather characterise what is happening as follows:

1. Science is built upon facts and logic, and so the scientific community tends to severely criticise those it views as misrepresenting facts or presenting fallacious logic.
2. The scientific community widely views ID arguments as combining misrepresented facts and fallacious logic.
3. Therefore the scientific community will generally severely criticises those who present these ID arguments.

It is not whether evolution is involved that is the determining factor, but whether the facts are fairly characterised, and the logic is rigorous.

Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 02:50, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I would note that epigenetics is not traditional evolution, nor is panspermia and those who subscribe to those are not shunned or outcast. Also post modernists dispute the application of evolution to many aspects of human behavior, but yet they are not only accepted in academia, but are the mainstream. So, the entire thesis does not hold up. In fact, it is a complete load of crap.--Filll (talk) 03:24, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

The scientific community also tends to criticize advocate a flat earthism, healing magnets, crystal worship. These as well as creationism/intelligent design have nothing to do with science and are anti-science. Angry Christian (talk) 01:50, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Don't forget that the IDists, as well as redefining science, also want to redefine "discrimination" and "attacked". The classic case being Sternberg, who kept his position and access to the Smithsonian, but suffered the shocking discrimination of having no more privileges than other unpaid research associates, and worse still some of his colleagues said things about him that weren't completely flattering. Poor wee soul. .. dave souza, talk 10:08, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Not only that, his colleagues were so cruel as to send private emails to each other, wondering who the hell he was (he had a habit of turning up to the Smithsonian irregularly and outside normal hours) and if he really was qualified to be hanging out with them. Naturally, Sternberg insisted on making a song and dance, which made these emails public -- after all, what's the point of making a martyr of yourself unless you can do so publicly? Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 10:33, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

There is something funny about the whole Sternberg situation. He only accepts the paper after he has quit as associate editor, clearly knowing he did something against the rules. He has repeatedly declared that he opposes intelligent design and then is involved with all kinds of intelligent design activities and organizations. He now is the main case presented in a movie in which he states he was regarded as an "intellectual terrorist". A lot of grandstanding, a lot of disingenuousness, a lot of blatant lies, etc.--Filll (talk) 14:36, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

This disscusion has gotten off topic, WHICH WAS NOT MY INTENT. It was probably a good idea to put it in a new section, but not in a way that makes me seem like I'm intentionally throwing gas on a fire. I'm changing the name of the thread, which is my right becasue I started the thread. Anyways, I'll look for a source for my statement, which will be difficult because my school's computers block just about everything. How about we change the statement to this, "According to the movie, even those that simply question the theory of evolution face discrimination in the scientific community." If anyone else has an idea for how it should be stated, please state it. Saksjn (talk) 14:20, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Does it really make that distinction? Do you have a reference to support this? Or does it simply conflate the two ideas? (I don't know, I haven't seen the movie, but I don't recall offhand that this distinction is made anywhere). Guettarda (talk) 14:36, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Serious, you need a source for this. "I heard someone say this" isn't a reliable source. You should have found a source first - if another editor removes your unsourced addition, you should not re-insert the material. There's no emergency here - find a source. Guettarda (talk) 03:47, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Saksjn, somewhere on your talk page there is a link to the Wiki guide. Read up on "Original Research" - WP:OR. I have no doubt what you're saying is true, but a claim like in a Wiki article needs to be sourced otherwise it is considered original research which we're supposed to avoid. And Guettarda is right, it's uncool to revert an unsourced claim that another editor rightfully removed. That's what the tag (that you also deleted) was there for, to let the others know that sentence does not comply with Wiki rules and is subject to deletion. And he explained his reason. If your school's network is unhelpful have a friend do the research for you and have them contribute here. I think most anyone would agree that the claim is noteworthy and belongs in the article, you or someone needs to get a source. Angry Christian (talk) 04:13, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Note that the article should be based on third party reliable sources, and using primary sources to make a point could contravene WP:NOR and WP:NPOV without outside context. "Ben Stein's Intelligent Design Movie at Jeremy Shere". Retrieved 2008-03-05. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help) discusses the issue quite well – RS? From memory, someone notable said this was spurious as it's OK to question "Darwinism", and they do it all the time, as do their colleagues, as a normal part of science, while of course creationism and ID "question" evolution on grounds of religion and not science, but I haven't managed to find it yet. It would also have to be noted that all the examples given in the film are ID proponentsists. ... dave souza, talk 10:00, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Is there any place you think has a transcript or something of their presentations? I'm looking to see if I can find a way to source a presentation that, to my knowledge, is not recorded or written down. Saksjn (talk) 13:46, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

No. Not on Wikipedia. That's the very definition of original research. JoshuaZ (talk) 15:46, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Referencing non-recorded presentations may violate WP:V. Other editors have to be conceivably able to verify these sources (it doesn't mean they have to actually verify it, you just can't include any sources that can't be verified). You have not actually even attempted to mention which presentations you are talking about, where they took place, and who gave them. You are saying "some guy said it once, i think", and that simply isn't good enough. Who said it? When? and to who? please. All sources indicate this focuses only on cdesign proponentists. See the AiG response.[2] --ZayZayEM (talk) 02:36, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Theres several people involved in marketing and production that have been traveling across the country in a bus with the expelled logo on it. They've been visiting schools and other meeting places and have been showing the preview for the movie and been talking about the various people presented in the film. There is information on the expelled website if I remember correctly. I can't access the sight right now but I will try to when I get home. (I love weekends!) Saksjn (talk) 14:03, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Your college blocks the Crossroads Expelled website? Angry Christian (talk) 15:23, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

please stop stalling. Either produce goods or wait until you can. This is pointless if all we get is vague "it's there somewhere" or "some guys in a bus with a logo". I know your high school student. And that isn't a score against you. But unless you meet the bar your commentary is likely to be disregarded as uninformed, or worse, ignorant and maliciously deceptive. (NB: not a personal attack, this is advice)--ZayZayEM (talk) 09:27, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

No offence taken. Saksjn (talk) 13:38, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Ya, my school is pretty ridiculous when it comes to filters. I'm googleing right now to see if I can find anything from the presentations to use as a source. Hopefully I can find something that the filter doesn't flag as, "entertainment". Saksjn (talk) 13:38, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Nothing yet... I'll keep looking. Saksjn (talk) 19:27, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Question

Has any documentary on evolution been described as controversial? Be nice to take that "controversial" adjective in this article. Kookywolf (talk) 05:47, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, back in 1859 Charles Darwin’s book, On the Origin of Species, was considered quite controversial. But after about 150 years of independent research by thousands of scientists around the world, it has been long and well confirmed. All evidence supports it, no evidence is against it. Thus, if you are a scientist and you are against evolution and you don’t have anything but the bible to back you up, you will be laughed at by your peers and rightly so. Science is about independently confirmable facts, not blind faith. Bluetd —Preceding comment was added at 15:18, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I'd really like you to pull together a little of what you speak of. You're confusing the concepts of macro evolution and micro evolution. Micro evolution has been accepted like you say, but macro evolution is still a strong topic of debate in the scientific community. Please distinguish which one you are discussing in the future. Infonation101 (talk) 19:22, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Infonation101, you may be setting a sprat to catch a macro, but your statement is both confused and off topic. Please confine discussion to ways to improve the article, and note that the "controversial documentary" statement is cited. .. dave souza, talk 19:32, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

And I would ask you to read more carefully. The above opinion "if you are a scientist and you are against evolution and you don’t have anything but the bible to back you up, you will be laughed at by your peers and rightly so" is equally off topic, and borderline personal attack. The citation you speak of is nothing more than a news article that should hold no merit on WP. Though I won't dispute the article is controversial, but I feel the sources on this page are falling away from what should be used. Don't deal me improve the article. So far this article is anything but up to par with WP standards. It requires a cleanup, improved sources and disputed NPOV. Infonation101 (talk) 19:49, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Kookywolf, what does "Be nice to take that "controversial" adjective in this article" mean? Angry Christian (talk) 12:34, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

The film makers themselves describe their own film as controversial, so it should probably stay. Make sure its sourced. Saksjn (talk) 13:32, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Seeing as how the controversy itself is the center of the film, it seems appropriate to denote the matter as controversial. It's not about ID theory in itself, distanced from prevailing evolutionary theory. Dolewhite —Preceding comment was added at 00:19, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Resource

The NCSE has produced a web page for links to resources about Expelled. So far it gives sources we've used, plus The Screengrab: Screengrab Exclusive Preview: EXPELLED - NO INTELLIGENCE ALLOWED which gives another review from someone who's seen it, Encyclopedia Britannica Blog: How Low Can Ben Stein Go? (To the Maligning of Charles Darwin) which gives the views of a respectable named writer on the publicity for the film, and The New University (University of California Irvine): I.D. Rakes it in and Gets Rake in Face which is essentially an essay by a second-year English major, so not a reliable source. . . dave souza, talk 14:29, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Dave. Great resource. Angry Christian (talk) 04:07, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Yesterday's NYTimes has an article on the movie. Guettarda (talk) 14:07, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, a useful story. This mp3 includes an interview with Dawkins which discusses Expelled towards the end, and gives some details such as the point that he was expecting to be interviewed by Mathis, who'd presented himself as pro-science, but instead was interviewed by Stein. Perhaps excessively detailed for this article. .. dave souza, talk 23:20, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Here's a tidbit from someone who attended one of these advanced screenings http://www.antievolution.org/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=14;t=5152;st=540#entry100826 It's nothing that can be used in the article but the cop action and night vision surveillance is funny. Angry Christian (talk) 15:17, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Before anyone with an agenda brings it up

This edit by Davesouza [3] appears to introduce too much information not directly related to "Expelled". I understand that because "Expelled" is being used a propoganda tool for conservative legislators, information on the so-called "Academic Freedom Acts" might be contextual. However this text block is far to specific to the Florida act, which is not a response to "Expelled" but the recent failure/success in school standard lobbying by creationists to amend evolution to being a theory (Evolution was instead marked as a theory).

Is Hays' really stupid "half-monkey half-human" quip or the fact that they are "unable to name any teachers in Florida who have been disciplined for being critical of evolution in the science classroom." really adding any extra description of Expelled, or providing further context for the film.?

We have a section entitled "Screenings" that seems for like "Florida Academic Freedom bill and Alan Hays".

Wikipedia is not indiscriminate information.--ZayZayEM (talk) 01:15, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

As you'll have noted, the addition summarises main points from Ben Stein weighs in on evolution fight - 03/10/2008 - MiamiHerald.com and improvements are of course welcome. It's significant that the film, before release to the public or any open showings to film critics, is being openly used to influence legislators considering a bill to alter education relating to evolution. Hay's quip is of course his point of view, and reflects the educational background. Their inability to name teachers who have been "expelled" or even disciplined goes to the heart of the premises of the film. Obviously the author of the newspaper article felt the background information was necessary and appropriate in discussing this showing of the film. The section was titled "Screening to Florida legislators" and in my opinion the issue is significant enough to have a stand alone section, but the more general title accommodates the showing to various Christian conservative leaders such as James Dobson, as noted by the NYT. "Screenings" can also accommodate any further significant private screenings. .. dave souza, talk 09:26, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not news, nor a media outlet. There are different uses of the medium. Miami Herald has a duty to inform its readers on a wide spectrum of information - such as views of politicians. I still fail to see how the comments or views of a conservative politician not involved in the production of this film is relevant. He is the target audience, but is not an authority on these matters, and his opinion here serves little purpose other then to expouse his stupidity and ignorance. Right now it is too focused on Florida-specific incident. That might be okay for the Miami Herald, but not for wikipedia.--ZayZayEM (talk) 09:32, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

It certainly looks like the first significant use of the film, extending beyond focussed publicising to sympathetic groups. I'm pressed for time to review it right now, got proposals for improvements? .. dave souza, talk 09:48, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I live iin Florida and the whole controversy over evolution/ID started before Expelled. While people may have mentioned Expelled in relationship to the issue,, it has not been a major part of the controversy. Saksjn (talk) 13:44, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

We do not yet know what sort of reception the film is going to get. This Florida screening might be the most significant event associated with the film. When it opens, it might disappear almost immediately. So...--Filll (talk) 14:10, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, Ben Stein thinks it's significant in relation to the movie, see the "HeraldTribune.com - News - News stories about Sarasota, Manatee and Charlotte counties in Florida, from the newspapers of record. - HeraldTribune.com". Retrieved 2008-03-13., "Intelligent Design could slip into science class - 03/13/2008 - MiamiHerald.com". Retrieved 2008-03-13., "Hernando Lawmakers Weigh In On Evolution Bill". Retrieved 2008-03-13. and "Actor Stein Plays Role In Debate On Evolution Education". Retrieved 2008-03-13.. More later, .. dave souza, talk 14:15, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

The movie-legislation connection certainly seems to be getting considerable news coverage, at least if Google-news is anything to go by. It seems to be a three-ring circus, with both Ben Stein & the DI's Casey Luskin (who let the cat out of the bag that the bill would make it easier to teach ID) in town hyping Florida's clone of the DI's model Academic Freedom bill. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 14:20, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

And if any of the legislators in the audience talked, they could be in trouble – see "Legislature invited to movie about creationism debate". Retrieved 2008-03-13. {{cite web}}: Text "The News-Press" ignored (help); Text "news-press.com" ignored (help) ..... dave souza, talk 14:24, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Update: "Lawmakers attend Tallahassee screening of movie by Ben Stein : tallahassee.com : Tallahassee Democrat". Retrieved 2008-03-14. and usefully "Eyes wide open :: tallahassee.com : Tallahassee Democrat". Retrieved 2008-03-14. "we'd like to credit the majority of Florida legislators who stayed away from the private prescreening of a movie Wednesday night — an event that wasn't open to the public and press..... the evening at downtown's IMAX Theater, which was rented out to Mr. Stein's group for $940, was a bust, with only about 100 people attending the movie. And most of those weren't lawmakers ". See also [http://www.flascience.org/wp/?p=503 "Florida Citizens for Science � Blog Archive � A quick analysis"]. Retrieved 2008-03-14. {{cite web}}: replacement character in |title= at position 30 (help) and [http://austringer.net/wp/index.php/2008/03/13/florida-luskin-lets-cat-out-of-bag/ "The Austringer � Florida: Luskin Lets Cat Out of Bag"]. Retrieved 2008-03-14. {{cite web}}: replacement character in |title= at position 16 (help). . . dave souza, talk 11:57, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Clean up

This whole opening series of paragraphs is a mess and is near impossible to read with all the footnotes. Couldn't we cut the background down, say something really brief about the ID/evolution controversy, and just put a link to the ID/evolution controversy page? 90% of that "background" is a big argument embedded in the opening paragraph while each side is fighting to have the dogmatic upper hand. It's unnecessary and inapproppriate. THis page should be about the film. It does not need to be a whole expose on a matter that's already thoroughly discussed elsewhere. Dolewhite

Well we have tried that in the past for such controversial articles about controversial topics. And you know what happens? We get hit with challenges and templates and people belligerently claiming that all of the statements we make have no proof and demanding references. And so, slowly but surely, these sorts of articles get more and more boilerplate and footnotes and citations. It happens to all these controversial articles. People are not willing to accept anything even if it is heavily cited in a linked article. --Filll (talk) 00:45, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, that's exactly my point. Since we know that it's going to be a fight (it clearly already is a fight), we should just redirect it to an existing debate. I see absolutely no sense in having this huge struggle in the middle of the article. IT MAKES IT ILLEGIBLE. Perspective aside, this is not the place to hold the debate, period. It's totally irrelevant to the summary of the article about the film whether Ben Stein or the whole movement is right or wrong, and no matter where you stand, if you step back for a few seconds and thinks from the perspective of a person aiming for standards of objective journalism that this is NOT the place to be having this discussion. You just put in that it's about the ID/evolution controversy, put a link to that article which already exists, and focus only on the FACTS of the FILM, not the facts of the film's CONTENT, which is only relevant to a lower paragraph under a seperate heading. Dolewhite —Preceding comment was added at 23:42, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Dolewhite, the film is not about the ID/evolution controversy, it is an attempt to demonize scientists as persecuting anyone that tries to advocate ID/evolution. The sad thing is that it is the creationists that are doing all the persecution. I have never heard of any scientist persecuting a Christian but there are many documented cases of creationists persecuting people that support evolution with acts of violence and death threats. I wish there were a good place in this article to state that the persecution is actually happening in reverse! Bluetd —Preceding comment was added at 14:06, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

You are not making a lot of sense. Relevant to the film but not its content? By the way, the LEAD has to summarize the entire article. So we cannot just relegate stuff you do not like to the lower paragraphs. Sorry. Also, we do not subscribe to "objective journalistic standards" whatever those are. We have our own principles we follow here like RS and NPOV etc.--00:22, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Ya, I do agree that the article should just be about the film. The whole article has become a ID vs. Evolution article, which is not what its meant to be. I think that links should be provided to ID and evolutions as well as related controversies, and the rest of the article should just be about the film. Saksjn (talk) 13:10, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

All the reliable sources I've seen say the film is about ID vs. evolution, and take care to spell out what that means. While you may want to hide that, the article should show the context clearly for readers who shouldn't have to research other articles to find out the significance of the film. .. dave souza, talk 16:08, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Unless there is a big surprise coming, the film that has been shown in sneak previews and that has been reviewed and all its promotion point towards an ID vs. evolution theme for the movie. It is also sort of confused, since the film links ID and God, which the true intelligent design movement does not, so they can maintain a "big tent" and for legal reasons. If the film is not about intelligent design and its conflict with evolution, what is it about? And do you have a WP:RS which describes it otherwise? --Filll (talk) 19:02, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

It's pretty clear Ben Stein is anti-science, anti-evolution, pro creationism and believes creationists are being persecuted for their religious beliefs by nazi loving darwinists. He also hopes that his creationist film will result in policy/social changes that will include creationism will be taught/discussed in public science class. He is also profoundly stupid on matters of science, he cannot seem to distinguish between cosmology and biology and makes other astonishing claims that are grounded is ignorance. To ignore those subjects in the article would be pretty dumb. It is both necessary and appropriate to cover these subjects in the article. Angry Christian (talk) 16:31, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

The film is about ID and evolution, but the article shouldn't be. It should be about the film and its significance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Saksjn (talk • contribs) 17:05, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

That is the significance of the film, together with education standards, as shown by reliable third party sources. Do please provide such sources for any other significance the film has. (remember, primary sources such as publicity stuff by the film producers, the DI or Stein can't be used to assess significance, see WP:NOR). .. dave souza, talk 17:13, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Stein and Answers in Genesis' Ken Ham team up to hype Expelled

A Meeting of Minds -- may give some indication of the crowd Expelled is targeting. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 05:51, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

like it or not, intelligent design is in fact creationism

You can pretend otherwise and feel free to debate this fact elsewhere but we need to quit misleading people by saying otherwise in the article. Every science agency in north america recognizes ID as creationism and we have at least one federal court case that concluded the same. Angry Christian (talk) 17:36, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Angry Christian, your over generalization make your arguments weak, and this specific section is based off your opinion. "scientific creationism is distinguished from biblical creationism in having 'no reliance upon biblical revelation'..." (Evidence for Scientific Creationism? Roger Lewin, Science, New Series, Vol. 228, No. 4701. (May 17, 1985), p. 837.) Here is made the distinction. Creationism in linguistic pop-culture is synonymous with biblical creationism while intelligent design is synonymous with scientific creationism. This page has allowed a few pros for Expelled, but for the most part has become destructive propaganda. The page needs to be taken back to a review of the movie, and needs dismiss the creationism argument. That argument needs to be reserved for a page on creationism. Infonation101 (talk) 19:39, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Infonation101, you can say he is over generalizing and has weak arguments all you like but that doesn't change the fact that he is 100% correct. The only evidence needed is: Wedge strategy. Infonation101, you are just another wedge user. -Bluetd —Preceding comment was added at 19:53, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Now I have been labeled, attacked and my my post denied proper translation. Your argument is easy to dissect. Nowhere above have I supported creationism, but sited a source to explain the difference between the two. A source independent of ICR. Your reliance on the wedge strategy is nothing related to the topic. Your opinion that "...he is 100% correct..." is not supported by anything but your own belief. I'll ask you to contemplate what you post before you post. WP is a highly navigated source of information,and as such we should take greater care in what is posted. Infonation101 (talk) 20:11, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

The Wedge strategy proves that intelligent design is creationism (biblical or otherwise). This was proven in a federal court of law. Bluetd —Preceding comment was added at 20:24, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

All I can see is a confused mess and bad grammar and spelling here. ID is creationism, and we have numerous sources which state this. Including the ruling of a US federal court!! ID and creationism use the same arguments. They use the same terminology. They use the same references. How are they any different?--Filll (talk) 20:22, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Intelligent design is a form of creationism. Even Ben Stein knows this. The article is about the movie and the movie is a propaganda piece for creationism. Ben is on record that he does not care if the movie makes money or not, all he wants is a change in policy. He wants to see IDC taught in high school. ALL of this is relevant for the article. Angry Christian (talk) 20:31, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a soapbox or a place to debate. Talk pages are for suggesting improvements to the main page, which should be verified through the use of reliable sources, and not based on original research. Regards Mr. Stein, be wary of violations of our policy on living persons. If a reliable source justifies your point, add it to the page. Otherwise, it may be removed without issue. WLU (talk) 20:35, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

On this note, I would like to suggest the removal of at least the following lines, "However, at this time, intelligent design is not a credible scientific challenge to the modern theory of evolution for explaining the complexity and diversity of life on earth." (for having no citation) and "Although evolution is unequivocally accepted by the scientific community, it is not because it is dogma, but because of the overwhelming evidence for evolution." for misquoting the source, and using a report that is date back to 1987. In the end I believe all disputes concerning creationism should be removed, and a link to creationism and intelligent design be posted in it's place. There, substantial research and participation has been collaborated to make excellent WP pages. Infonation101 (talk) 21:16, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Um arent you the guy who just posted an article from 1985 supporting your mistaken notion that ID is not creationism?  :-) And read the cites and sources, ID is in fact creationism and the claims in the article are well supported. I'm not going to waste time arguing with you. What amazes me is the people here who know the very least about ID and creationism are also the ones who know the very least about Wikipedia policies, and they won't stop yapping about being persecuted. Telling someone they are flat wrong is not persecution. Asking someone to familiarize themselves with the subject matter and Wiki policies is not persecution. In fact one guy has been saying thbis talk page is violent. WTF? That might explain all the misguided shit (nothing else to call it) that keeps showing up on my talk page. I fully support you christian teenagers contributing to this article but you have to learn and abide by the freaking rules whether you like it or not. Angry Christian (talk) 21:31, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe there is a difference between posting an article showing linguistic definitions, and posting a survey that was used 11 years ago. Historical linguistic changes are different from using an 11 year old survey to define how the current scientific community feels. As for whether intelligent design is creationism, this cannot be determined by any State. State rulings should never be considered in science. Politics and policies have nothing to do with experiment and research. The paper written by Barbara Forrest was not published in any PR journal as far as I can see, and is not a reliable source. In any case, this should not be the place for such discussion. These things need to be reserved for the page on creationism. Infonation101 (talk) 21:53, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Infonation101, a federal court ruling on intelligent design is highly relevant on an article about intelligent design. Every science organizarion in North America recognizes ID as creationism. This is not a secret. Barbara Forrest is probably the leading expert on ID in North America, she was an expert witness in Kitzmiller v Dover. She has published numerous articles, and books on the subject. Your belief that she is not a reliable source does not jive with reality and I cannot help you on that count. Your lack of accepting reality and the continuous claims of being persecuted are not going to work in your favor. There are policies here that we all have to abide by. This movie is about creationism so talking about it on the creationism page does not make much sense. Angry Christian (talk) 22:21, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

<reduce indent> Infonation101, as far as reliable sources go, here is a link to the Wiki policy on the subject - WP:Sources I hope this helps. Angry Christian (talk) 22:34, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Surveys of the scientific community and assorted proclamations by scientific bodies have not changed in about 80 years. So something 11 years old is not likely to be very far in error. How do you explain A Scientific Support for Darwinism or Project Steve which are both pretty current if somehow things changed drastically in the last 11 years?--Filll (talk) 21:59, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Now be fair. Cdesign proponentsists is even better evidence of IDcreationism than the wedge. .. dave souza, talk 22:41, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

"...third-party published... peer-reviewed journals..." As far as I can tell the paper written by Barbara Forrest hasn't been. As for not trusting government decisions in science I would relay you to this article and this article (just FYI, nothing more). Politics can make some stupid decisions when it comes to science. Filll, I haven't heard of those sources, and I'll look more into them. If anything then, they should be cited in place of what is currently up. Infonation101 (talk) 22:45, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Young man, quote mining Wiki policy is not going to get you very far. You have now demonstrated either a capacity for dishonesty or you're reading onlyh the portions of the policy that you like while ignoring the rest. Now go back and read the entire policy and stop this inmature, time consuming nonsense. You want to participate, fine, and welcome. Or would you rather play quote mining games with your fellow editors here? Angry Christian (talk) 22:50, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Never again refer to me as "young man". The "quote-mining" was what I believed to be the simplest overview for the article, which I did read. Going further "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." The article still has not been published by a third party. If this isn't straight forward enough, please give me your take on WP:Sources. Infonation101 (talk) 22:59, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I've given you my take, did you not read it? I've given you a link to the policy and you claim you read that. We are supposed to assume good faith, until proven otherwise. You'll need to ask someone else because I am now convinced you are a disruptive force on this talk page. The fact you think B Forrest is not a reliable source makes me question what exactly you do know about intelligent design, if anything. But no worries, I'm sure someone else will make time for you to explain in great detail why Barbara Forrest is a reliable source. Angry Christian (talk) 23:08, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, your question of my knowledge of intelligent design is really irrelevant. And as for your take, I did get: "Your belief that she is not a reliable source does not jive with reality and I cannot help you on that count." Really, my belief is irrelevant as well. I'm just calling into question the sources being used on this page. Sources from published third-party journals should be the most sourced, but they are not. Infonation101 (talk) 23:32, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

We have plenty of excellent sources, including Dr. Forrest, who is a world expert and notable and according to WP:SPS, a WP:RS. So please, save it for someone else.--Filll (talk) 01:20, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Pseudoscience

Infonation101 doesn't seem to have grasped various aspects of WP:NPOV and WP:NPOV/FAQ, both of which are policies. In particular, NPOV: Pseudoscience – "any mention should be proportionate and represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories." A film promoting pseudoscience has to be described in that context For additional guidance see WP:FRINGE. .. dave souza, talk 22:41, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

No, I understand. I do agree that the macro evolution of life is the dominating opinion in the scientific community, but it hasn't been indisputably accepted and lines like "Although evolution is unequivocally accepted by the scientific community..." makes it sound that way. These are the things I would like to have removed. Those do fall into WP:FRINGE. Infonation101 (talk) 22:53, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

How would you suggest we reword it, infonation101? What wording you suggest? Angry Christian (talk) 22:55, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Although the macroevolution of species has become widely accepted by the scientific community... Again I do think we have to define what type of evolution we are discussing. The arguments behind macro and micro-evolution are different, and we can't make the mistake of over generalization. Infonation101 (talk) 23:02, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Unequivocal means clear. And there are over 99.9% of the scientists in relevant fields that accept it. That is pretty clear.--Filll (talk) 23:09, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

And by a remarkable coincidence, only creationist pseudoscience proponentsists seem to think that macroevolution and microevolution are different processes, or that one magically can't happen. .. dave souza, talk 23:14, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

"Again I do think we have to define what type of evolution we are discussing. The arguments behind macro and micro-evolution are different, and we can't make the mistake of over generalizatio" Actually we have an obligation to NOT perpeturate that sort of thinking in the article. We're not here to advance the creationists/pseudoscience agenda. There are plently of creationism blogs out there for that. Angry Christian (talk) 23:17, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

This was only proposed because of published articles like this:

Darwin realized that the fossil record fails to corroborate his theory, according to which evolution proceeds through the accumulation of endless series of minute changes, "micromutations" according to current terminology. The evidence available at the time rather suggested that evolution proceeds by extensive leaps... (Macroevolution and Punctuated Equilibria, Soren Lovtrup, Systematic Zoology, Vol. 30, No. 4. (Dec., 1981), pp. 498-500.)

From a completely scientific standpoint, I honestly believe the two have to be separated. Infonation101 (talk) 23:25, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

From a completely scientific standpoint, that looks exactly like creationist quotemining, a very old reference which is completely off topic. This page is for proposing improvements to the article, and is not a forum. See also NPOV: Making necessary assumptions. ... dave souza, talk 23:49, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Science is not a democracy. 99.9% of scientists used to believe that there were less than a dozen elements. Then we discovered atoms and created the periodic table. This worship of scientists is fascinating, but misplaced.  —CobraA1 17:06, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Except that this hasn't been true for over two centuries. Applying of fallacious religious adjectives to science ("worship", "dogma", "fundamentalist", etc) is a sign of anti-intellectualism. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk 17:18, 20 March 2008 (UTC)