Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Diorama (Silverchair album): Difference between revisions
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***I've removed the (clearly unpopular) awards tables. The Charts table is a stalemate on album articles, so I've kept that. ''[[User:Dihydrogen Monoxide|dihydrogen monoxide]]'' <small>([[User talk:Dihydrogen Monoxide|H<sub>2</sub>O]])</small> 01:03, 10 May 2008 (UTC) |
***I've removed the (clearly unpopular) awards tables. The Charts table is a stalemate on album articles, so I've kept that. ''[[User:Dihydrogen Monoxide|dihydrogen monoxide]]'' <small>([[User talk:Dihydrogen Monoxide|H<sub>2</sub>O]])</small> 01:03, 10 May 2008 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' as GA reviewer. Another great one from DHMO. <font color="steelblue">[[User:Burningclean|'''''Burningclean''''']]</font> <sub><font color="red">[[User talk:Burningclean|[speak]]]</font></sub> 22:04, 9 May 2008 (UTC) |
*'''Support''' as GA reviewer. Another great one from DHMO. <font color="steelblue">[[User:Burningclean|'''''Burningclean''''']]</font> <sub><font color="red">[[User talk:Burningclean|[speak]]]</font></sub> 22:04, 9 May 2008 (UTC) |
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:'''Comment''' Being a GA reviewer is not a good basis to cast your support. And besides, there is a great disparity between a GA and an FA. =) --[[User:Efe|Efe]] ([[User talk:Efe|talk]]) 04:08, 12 May 2008 (UTC) |
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'''Comments''' |
'''Comments''' |
Revision as of 04:08, 12 May 2008
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A highly popular album by Silverchair. Well written, uses reliable sources, etc. (well, that's my opinion!)—I think this article is FA ready. As well as a GAN reviewer, there is quite a bit of peer reviewing in the talk page archives. I'm happy to act on any new suggestions. Cheers, dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 00:54, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Comment I think "nothing that" should be "noting that" unless I'm mistaken? naerii - talk 01:08, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Fixed (typo). dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:12, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Yay, well I read the thing and it all looks okay to me so support. naerii - talk 01:14, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Fixed (typo). dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:12, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Support
Comments...And my Aussie music education continues, courtesy of Dihydrogen Monoxide. Close to ready; however, some things to consider:I seems odd to write "ARIA" twice (in the context of awards) before finally explaining the acronym in a sentence. Can we fix that?- We can, and I have. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 04:35, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
"Johns initially wrote eight songs, only to later erase all record of them later..." Can we make this more specific? If the album is digitally recorded, he just deleted the files? If analog recorded, does this mean he destroyed the masters?- Digital, reworded. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 04:35, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
The Metacritic stuff.. who are Ink 19 and Dot music? If those are amateur reviewers logged into a web site, especially anonymously, I don't think we want to include that as a reliable source. I'm not familiar with that site.- Since they're on Metacritic they aren't amateur, but since they don't add much (couldn't find full reviews) I've removed them anyways. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 04:35, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
You said a couple times that Johns wrote most of the album, but I don't recall reading about anyone else being involved in the songwriting process. Parks did some arrangements, but did anyone do any songwriting?--Laser brain (talk) 04:26, 9 May 2008 (UTC)- Nope, fairly certain it was just Johns. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 04:35, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Comment Hello DM. Here's my comment on this article:
- the album saw Silverchair lead singer Daniel Johns co-produce for the first time, alongside David Bottrill. I usually read this kind of phrasing and its sounds awkward. --Efe (talk) 06:11, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Hmm...maybe it's just me, but I'm not seeing the issue (removing saw would make it worse, IMO). dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Its not actually an issue and maybe its just me who felt its awkward. Anyway, would be better if reworded. --Efe (talk) 09:34, 9 May 2008 (UTC)\
- Do you have any suggestions? I really can't see how to make it flow better... dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:39, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Like, "...the album was co-produced by Silverchair....for the first time, alongside..." Something like that. Im not into fixing because me too have troubles with grammars and brilliant prose, but as a reviewer, i felt its ackward. Anyway, its just my opinion. BTW, that "..., alongside David...", its like David also produced a Silverchair album for the first time, or he is? Its ambiguous. --Efe (talk) 10:05, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Aaah, I see your point. How is it now? [1] dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 10:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Thats better now. Nothing confusing. =) --Efe (talk) 10:39, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Aaah, I see your point. How is it now? [1] dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 10:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Like, "...the album was co-produced by Silverchair....for the first time, alongside..." Something like that. Im not into fixing because me too have troubles with grammars and brilliant prose, but as a reviewer, i felt its ackward. Anyway, its just my opinion. BTW, that "..., alongside David...", its like David also produced a Silverchair album for the first time, or he is? Its ambiguous. --Efe (talk) 10:05, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Do you have any suggestions? I really can't see how to make it flow better... dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:39, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Its not actually an issue and maybe its just me who felt its awkward. Anyway, would be better if reworded. --Efe (talk) 09:34, 9 May 2008 (UTC)\
- Hmm...maybe it's just me, but I'm not seeing the issue (removing saw would make it worse, IMO). dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Johns wrote most of the album, utilising a piano, I think its beter to put that "utising a piano" first then comma to avoid many commas in a single sentence. --Efe (talk) 06:11, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Done as suggested. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Diorama charted successfully and was moderately well received by critics. Thats vague. Please be specific.
- Reworded. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- And there's a lot of minor stuffs in that para, like percent in this and stars in that. How important are they? You can probably summarized that as one, regarding to the preceding comment. --Efe (talk) 06:11, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I suppose I don't need to include the AMG/RS scores, they're mostly there for variety. Removed. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- It was eventually certified triple-platinum by ARIA. Diorama won five ARIA Awards in 2002. Stubby sentences. --Efe (talk) 06:11, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Merged. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Silverchair performed "The Greatest View" at the ceremony; the song was subsequently nominated for "Highest Selling Album" in 2003. What is the significance of that performance why its in the lead? And, was "The Greatest View" nominated for "Highest Selling Album" of "Highest Selling Single"? --Efe (talk) 06:11, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Removed The Greatest View mention, and changed it to the album (oops...). dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Daniel Johns' home Do you need to state that in the infobox? Very specific. --Efe (talk) 06:11, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, it's where some of the album was recorded (on piano). dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- April-October, 2001 This should not be linked. --Efe (talk) 06:11, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Delinked. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Delink 2002 under "After All These Years" in the infobox. --Efe (talk) 06:11, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Ref 2. Is the date the publication date of the access date? If its the former, confine it with parethesis; if the latter, change the format for consistency. --Efe (talk) 06:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Publication date; it uses {{cite news}} which formats it as such. It can't be an access date if there isn't a URL. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Same through with ref 3, 7 and 8. And, do not link that incomplete date in ref 3. --Efe (talk) 06:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Delinked in ref 3; same as above applies for other refs. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Please go over with the format for consistency issues. Thank you. --Efe (talk) 06:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Thank you for your comments, I think they are all addressed. Cheers, dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Comments
I did a ce; mainly converting the #1 to number one, and so forth, because it vastly improves readability and improves the way the text "looks". Do we need to have colour-coded infoboxes? Its rather ugly, and I really don't see the point of it. What they won and what didn't win is clear enough without the colours, but the red and green rather jumps at you when you're just scrolling down. indopug (talk) 06:41, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Hmm...I copied that formatting from Silverchair discography, and I've used similar formatting on all my other album articles. I don't feel strongly about it (I rarely do), but I'd rather keep it—do you have a significant objection? dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Hate that glaring colors as well. Maybe you can use light gray? Don't worry, though, its just my opinion. --Efe (talk) 09:36, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Oppose for now based on what seems to be extensive copyediting required. No issue with the comprehensiveness but the text needs much work. I'm aware that some of the text I'm commenting on below has been changed in the last few hours.
- References
- The fact that one of the labels was "Eleven" is not referenced anywhere and only listed in the lead and the infobox - should be in the body.
- It's now mentioned in the Album and single releases section. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:03, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- General bits
- Where mentioning a third-party organisation or reviewer it would make the article far clearer if, the first time used, a couple of extra words were added to make the source unambiguous. Eg: "three star critique from Rolling Stone" - from the printed magazine, website or a named reviewer ? Metacritic, All Music Guide, Triple J etc - a reader of the article would be hard pressed to know what these where unless they already knew. Often it's expanded on later in the article where it should be higher up.
- OK, I've looked through and tried to fix all cases of these, please tell me if I've missed any. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:03, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- Wording - mostly in order from the top
- "Released on 31 March 2002 by Eleven, the album saw Silverchair lead singer Daniel Johns co-produce for the first time, alongside David Bottrill". Does not mention what "Eleven" is, "Silverchair" is redundant and an album seeing a band is stretching language a trifle far. Perhaps "It was released by Australian record label 'Eleven: A Music Company' on 31 March 2002. Lead singer Daniel Johns had co-produced for the first time, alongside David Bottrill" - though I'm unhappy with my version too.
- I had reworded this after Efe's comments ("Released on 31 March 2002 by Eleven, the album was co-produced by Daniel Johns and David Bottrill, both doing so for the first time on a Silverchair album.")—is this OK? dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:03, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- "Johns wrote most of the album, utilising a piano" - "Utili[s|z]ing" is a poor word here. I'm sure pianos are hard to write with. Perhaps he wrote this at a piano ? The wording later "Johns wrote much of the album on a baby grand piano" is perhaps not what is intended. "at" rather than "on" ?
- Reworded in both cases. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:03, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- "after the band took a 12-month break" - did the writing happen after completion of the break ( as is implied) or during the break ?
- No, during (as was once implied, meaning must have been lost during some copyediting...). Fixed. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O)
- "on Diorama, which contain
eds numerous orchestral arrangements and power ballads," - tense issue - "It earned a 71% score on Metacritic, including a four star review from All Music Guide " - I don't think that the All Music review was "included" in the Metacritic score... received would be better than earned and rating than score - read how "It received a 71% rating" works better than "It earned a 71% score"
- Fixed (the AMG mention was already removed per Efe). dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:03, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- "and it reached
peaked at#1" - hard to have a higher peak. - "certified triple-platinum" - which is how many albums ?
- >210,000 I believe, so added. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:03, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- "Though' Launay had produced
worked with the band on theirthe threepriorprevious albums,butlead singer Daniel Johns decided that he needed someone who understood where he wanted to go with the album" - needlessly wordy. The boldfaced part and the rest of the paragraph need lots of work. eg: "Thus, he interviewed" - Thus is unneeded, "Johns' main issue was that he predicted Diorama" is not really better than "Johns believed Diorama"- You can hear me groaning here...all those reworded, I'll look through the rest as I have time. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:03, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- "Reviewer Mark Kemp praised Silverchair, saying that the band had had developed a strong, independent, musical ability, compared to Frogstomp, which he said was heavily influenced by Pearl Jam and Nirvana." - compared to Frogstomp (not made clear here that it's an album) or in contrast to Frogstomp. I had to read this a couple of times to work out what was meant.
Lots of textual issues that need addressing similar to the above. I couldn't find a paragraph that flowed well
- :( Will take another look through. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:03, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- Quotations
Though useful some of the quotes are overdone and serve to make the text heavy going.
- After this, he made a "conscious decision to write something more uplifting". -> He decided to write a more uplifting album.
- Peripitus (Talk) 11:08, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for your time and efforts. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:03, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- Oppose per 1a. This is FAC, and not FLC. The "Response" section has all these tables listing various things, and such information can be written out. These sections prohibit the article from being "engaging". LuciferMorgan (talk) 11:27, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- The tabular data is, for the most part, already described in prose. Do you think the tables might be useful to readers who want a quick reference? Say someone came to the article to find out how the album charted. The tables might be more useful to them than having to read through the prose to find it. Just something to chew on. --Laser brain (talk) 14:14, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I've removed the (clearly unpopular) awards tables. The Charts table is a stalemate on album articles, so I've kept that. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:03, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- The tabular data is, for the most part, already described in prose. Do you think the tables might be useful to readers who want a quick reference? Say someone came to the article to find out how the album charted. The tables might be more useful to them than having to read through the prose to find it. Just something to chew on. --Laser brain (talk) 14:14, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Support as GA reviewer. Another great one from DHMO. Burningclean [speak] 22:04, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Comment Being a GA reviewer is not a good basis to cast your support. And besides, there is a great disparity between a GA and an FA. =) --Efe (talk) 04:08, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Comments
Current ref 24 is lacking a publisher. David Frickie "Silverchair See Past Tomorrow"- Good pickup, fixed. Thanks. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- All fixed. Ealdgyth - Talk 04:15, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- Being on the road, I didnt check external links. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:11, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Comments
- I gave this a review before, but I have some new thoughts:
- Can we get a reference for the "210,000 copies" statistic (doesn't have to be in the lead, though).
- Platinum = >70,000, thus triple platinum = >210,000. I've added that somewhere in the article. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- "Johns commented on the difference between what resonated well on piano compared to on guitar" sounds awkward to me. Can't think of a way to reword it atm though.
- Attempted reword. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- "...he had written songs with the intention of Imbruglia singing them" Maybe "...he had written songs with the intention that Imbruglia would sing them"? Or "...he had written songs with intending for Imbruglia to sing them"? Neither one is great, but the wording just sounded a little weird there.
- "Johns also denied rumours that he had written songs intending Imbruglia to sing them." OK? dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- I still think the last sentence of that paragraph about the article's title seems a little tacked on there, with the rest of the paragraph being about the inspiration for songs. I don't suppose you could get away with putting it in the lead? It's kind of an introductory point, what the name's about.
- Yeah, that sentence will probably seem the least out of place in the lead... done. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- "...the band '[reverted] back to their grunge sound'." So 'reverted' is part of this article, not the original quote? Why not just "...the band reverted 'back to their grunge sound'"?
- Can we get a reference for the "210,000 copies" statistic (doesn't have to be in the lead, though).
- Just suggestions, if I'm off base on any of them feel free to ignore. Similarly I've made some tweaks to the article which can be reverted if they weren't helpful. delldot talk 18:13, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for these and for your copyedits! dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- These fixes (and the explanation) are all fine, support. delldot talk 02:23, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for these and for your copyedits! dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Comments
- Contractions: wasn't, weren't, maybe others.
- Fixed those and any others I could see. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- First paragraph is rather short; could it be expanded or merged?
- Nah, that's the typical first-album-paragraph... dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- "Lead singer Johns wrote most of the album at a piano, while the band took a 12-month break" -> shouldn't be acomma. (this comment is in direct violation of Giano's essay! :O)
- Fixed. (lol!) dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- "Silverchair worked with composer Van Dyke Parks on Diorama, which contains numerous orchestral arrangements and power ballads, as opposed to the post-grunge music typical of their earlier work." - very awkward phrasing, maybe "Silverchair worked with composer Van Dyke Parks on Diorama; the album contains numerous orchestral arrangements and power ballads, as opposed to the post-grunge music typical of their earlier work."
- 'Five singles were released; "The Greatest View", "Without You", "Luv Your Life", and "Across The Night" appeared on the ARIA Singles Chart, and "After All These Years" was released as a promotional single.' - grammatically incorrect, should probably be two sentences: 'Five singles were released; "The Greatest View," "Without You," "Luv Your Life," "Across The Night," and "After All These Years". "Across The Night" appeared on the ARIA Singles Chart, and "After All These Years" was released as a promotional single.'
- Reworded a bit. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- There's a lot of '"stuff",'. This should be "stuff,". (comma before quote)
- The comma only goes inside the quotation marks if it's part of the quote, I believe? dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 01:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Can't find much else at the moment, the majority of the article looks good. Nousernamesleftcopper, not wood 23:36, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- For the last one, I always learned it as the comma always goes in the quotes... oh well, maybe I remembered incorrectly or there's an odd difference in grammar standards from country to country. Everything else has been addressed nicely, so supportNousernamesleftcopper, not wood 01:51, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Comments - I've agreed to do a quick copy edit for this article, and will place comments and questions here.
Does reference #8 confirm that he suffered from reactive arthritis? I see it is linked to him having therapy.(Integrated into article) Risker (talk) 01:59, 11 May 2008 (UTC)- Quotes from source: "Silverchair frontman Daniel Johns thought his debilitating reactive arthritis would end his career." and "I've been doing physio and treatments constantly every day from 11am until 5pm. I do physiotherapy, then I get these really painful massages which break the hardened fluid in your legs, arms and back" (quoting Johns). dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 02:13, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Should the US charts (Billboard, Hot Tracks) be identified as American? The charts for other countries are specifically identified, and since this is primarily an Australian band, it might be useful.(Integrated into article) Risker (talk) 04:03, 11 May 2008 (UTC)- Yeah, good idea. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 04:11, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
From the Album and single releases section: "The band's tour in support of Diorama would take its name from "Across the Night", which took Johns nine hours to write on a sleepless night"...was that the intended tour, or did they actually tour?(integrated into article) Risker (talk) 04:20, 11 May 2008 (UTC)- Yes, they did perform an Across the Night tour. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 04:25, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- Support as copy editor. Risker (talk) 04:43, 11 May 2008 (UTC)