Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Elvis Presley/archive4

Elvis Presley

Nominator(s): PL290 and DocKino

• Featured article candidates/Elvis Presley/archive1
• Featured article candidates/Elvis Presley/archive2
• Featured article candidates/Elvis Presley/archive3
• Featured article candidates/Elvis Presley/archive4

• Featured article review/Elvis Presley/archive1

Notes from previous FAC:

• Media review reported no issues.
• Source review noted issues: these have been addressed. PL290 (talk) 21:53, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

• Support, carried over from the last FAC. Some opposition floated in after my review last time, items that I should have noticed and did agree with—the nominators appear to have addressed them. The para about Elvis meeting Nixon looks much better as well, which was the other standout objection that I noticed. --Andy Walsh (talk) 22:14, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Oppose Some sources doubting Presley’s reputation as the most successful popular singer of his day are still missing. For example, this one:

• Though he has featured prominently in a variety of polls and surveys designed to measure popularity and influence, sociologist Philip Ennis writes, "Perhaps it is an error of enthusiasm to freight Elvis Presley with too heavy a historical load" because, according to an opinion poll of high school students in 1957, Pat Boone was nearly the "two-to-one favorite over Elvis Presley among boys and preferred almost three-to-one by girls..." See Ennis, Philip H., The Seventh Stream: The Emergence of Rocknroll in American Popular Music (Wesleyan University Press, 1992), pp. 251-252.

Some details that were part of previous article versions have frequently been removed, for instance

• His mother, Gladys Love Smith (April 25, 1912–August 14, 1958), was "voluble, lively, full of spunk," and had alcohol problems.

Furthermore, why isn’t there a special section on the Las Vegas jumpsuit era in the article? In that era, for which Presley is so well known, the singer was distanced from the main currents of rock 'n' roll, which were seized by groups such as The Beatles and the Rolling Stones during the 1960s. This moving away from his roots was much criticized by critics and rock musicians.

• "There was so little of it that was actually good," David Bowie says. "Those first two or three years, and then he lost me completely." See "How Big Was The King? Elvis Presley's Legacy, 25 Years After His Death." CBS News, August 7, 2002.

One of the most frequent points of criticism is the overweight and androgyny of the late Las Vegas Presley.

Furthermore, why is there so little on Elvis’s personal life to be found in the biographical article? A section more specifically dealing with his friends is missing, although it is well known that he spent all day and night with them. The problems he had with his stepmother are not even mentioned. Where are the paragraphs about his personal habits? Why are there no passages about his violent behavior and his notorious predilection for guns?

The Legacy section primarily includes superlatives. Where are the critical remarks about the world-wide Elvis industry and the Elvis cult at Graceland? The same section still includes the following (false) claim:

• "Presley also heralded the vastly expanded reach of celebrity in the era of mass communication: at the age of 21, within a year of his first appearance on American network television", Elvis "was arguably the most famous person in the world."

“...the most famous person in the world?” Sorry, at the age of 21, i.e. in 1956, Elvis was much loved and hated in several parts of the USA, that’s true, but Charles Laughton didn’t even know the correct name of Elvis when he introduced him in the Sullivan Show. More famous in the minds of many at that time may have been Mao Zedong, if you count all the Chinese people whose hero Mao was and who had never heard of Elvis. And you can be sure that many Americans too hated him in 1956. Furthermore, in 1956, Marilyn Monroe, as a celebrity, was surely more famous for marrying Arthur Miller than Elvis for his gyrations. More famous than Elvis in the minds of many American adults at that time were also Dwight D. Eisenhower and Nikita Khrushchev (the latter for his de-Stalinization policy). So much for the false claim that, "at the age of 21," Elvis "was arguably the most famous person in the world."

More critical voices have stated that while "Elvis’s success as a singer and movie star dramatically increased his economic capital, his cultural capital never expanded enough for him to transcend the stigma of his background as a truck driver from the rural South... 'No matter how successful Elvis became... he remained fundamentally disreputable in the minds of many Americans... He was the sharecropper’s son in the big house, and it always showed.'" See Linda Ray Pratt, "Elvis, or the Ironies of a Southern Identity," The Southern Quarterly, vol. 18 (1979), pp.43, 45, also cited in Rodman, Elvis after Elvis (1996), p.78, and Janet Podell, Rock Music in America (1987), p.26. Such statements certainly belong to the "Legacy" section, but have frequently been removed.

See also the critical commentaries by Johnbod, for instance [1] and [2]. Onefortyone (talk) 01:18, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

The points which Johnbod raised have been addressed and I look forward to his assessment of the actions taken. The remaining points appear to relate to incidental aspects of the artist's life and career, or that of his parents, relatives and colleagues, or, alternatively, dwell too much on details of one aspect for a summary article of this size. The question of inclusion of both positive and negative aspects has already received careful consideration and I feel the correct balance has now been achieved. PL290 (talk) 02:43, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Support The article is comprehensive, well researched, well written, and relates a very complex story with clarity and, yes, excellent balance.

I'm disturbed by the nature of the opposition raised just above, which appears to be made without any concern for the need to maintain that balance, as well as proper focus and manageable length. The interest in inflating coverage of Presley's family and associates is obviously misplaced, as is the desire to further emphasize the decline in his physical condition and his disreputability in certain circles—issues already covered by the article in depth and at many different junctures.

Particularly questionable are certain misleading and poorly based arguments, which cast the opponent's good faith into grave doubt:

• The conflation (via "because") of the high school poll with the isolated statement ""Perhaps it is an error of enthusiasm to freight Elvis Presley with too heavy a historical load" appears to be willfully deceptive. Here is that sentence fully in context—it begins a section in Ennis's book called "The Legacy of the Pantheon":

Perhaps it is an error of enthusiasm to freight Elvis Presley with too heavy a historical load; yet he clearly outshines the other performers in rocknroll's first pantheon. He, more than the others, has become a national icon. The legacy of rocknroll's founding years, therefore, is largely Elvis', even though it was a collective accomplishment.

• The desire to introduce this single high school poll also reconfirms the obliviousness to concerns of balance and length. Its inclusion would require the survey of broader, more objective standards of popularity in comparing Boone and Presley, such as chart success and record sales. In 1957, Presley had four chart-topping singles; each "sold about two million copies. Elvis had two number-one albums and three number-one EPs, and in all had spent twenty-one weeks at the top of the singles charts, fourteen heading the album charts. The single 'Jailhouse Rock' sold an instant two million copies, and the EP became Elvis's second million-seller in that category" (Ernst Jorgensen, Elvis Presley: A Life in Music, p. 98). And, of course, 1956 was even bigger for Presley than 1957. Boone's achievements were impressive, but not in the same league (for instance, he spent seven weeks at the top of the singles charts in 1957). Believe otherwise? Please quote in similar detail and properly source. Thank you.
• Presley's first network appearance was in January 1956; he turned 22 in January 1957. The statement that he was "arguably the most famous person in the world" within a year of the first event, when he was still 21 (that is, by roughly the end of 1956) is well sourced. I checked the source. Indeed, it flatly claims that he was the most famous person in the world. The statement in the article thus—appropriately, I believe—moderates this claim, for which much evidence may be marshaled but which is ultimately hard to prove conclusively. The idea that an English actor's (possibly intentional) mispronunciation of Presley's name in September 1956 contradicts the statement is bizarre—especially when the article clearly states that this September '56 event was key in catapulting Presley to the heights of fame. The opponent's OR claims concerning Mao, Monroe, Eisenhower, and Khrushchev, all obviously unsourced, in no way refute the well founded statement.
• A request is made for a "special section on the Las Vegas jumpsuit era". The era—including the attention paid to Presley's costumes and, of course, the nature of his music—is already extensively and appropriately covered in the article's historical section.
• Johnbod's comments from the last FAC are raised, as if the nominators had not expressly worked to address them.

In sum, I don't see anything actionable here and I believe the submission as a whole represents a fringe position.—DCGeist (talk) 03:12, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Just a few notes. According to the New York Times, May 17, 1991, Queen Elizabeth II

"is arguably the most famous person in the world -- a woman famous not for Andy Warhol's 15 minutes or for 15 years but for almost five decades. She is incalculably wealthy, a living link with the Britain of Chaucer and Shakespeare and Wellington and Churchill, who has herself been privy to the deepest secrets of the West since 1952, when Harry S. Truman lived in the White House and Joseph Stalin lived in the Kremlin." See [3]

Another source says that

"During the anti-Communist witch-hunts spearheaded by Sen. Joseph McCarthy, Paul Robeson became a target for repression. He went from being arguably the most famous person in the world, to being erased from the history books. Now, after a six-year grass-roots campaign, the United States Post Office is issuing a commemorative stamp in his honor." See [4].

So much for the ridiculous claim that Elvis, in 1956, was "arguably the most famous person in the world."

According to Billboard, Boone was the second biggest charting artist of the late 1950s, behind only Elvis Presley but ahead of Ricky Nelson and The Platters, and was ranked at No. 9 - behind The Rolling Stones and Paul McCartney but ahead of artists such as Aretha Franklin, Chicago and The Beach Boys - in its listing of the Top 100 Top 40 Artists 1955-1995. See Joel Whitburn, The Billboard Book of Top 40 Hits, 1996, p.806. It is a fact that, for high school students, Pat Boone was nearly the "two-to-one favorite over Elvis Presley among boys and preferred almost three-to-one by girls..." This suggests that Elvis, the bad guy, and his rock 'n 'roll music was more favored by lower-class than by middle-class teenagers, the latter favoring the good guy Boone. And this fact is certainly of some importance.

Furthermore, the Wikipedia article on John Lennon includes a comprehensive section on "Marriages and relationships", the Paul McCartney article has "Personal relationships" and "Lifestyle" sections. The Bob Dylan, Jim Morrison, Marlon Brando and James Dean articles all include "Personal life" sections. It’s a mystery to me why a biographical article on Elvis Presley should not have such sections that more specifically deal with Presley's family and associates. Onefortyone (talk) 02:21, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Sigh.

• Elizabeth II was indeed very famous in 1991, as she remains. This is utterly irrelevant to the statement in the article: "Presley also heralded the vastly expanded reach of celebrity in the era of mass communication: at the age of 21, within a year of his first appearance on American network television, he was arguably the most famous person in the world."

According to the New York Times article, Queen Elizabeth II was "arguably the most famous person in the world ... for almost five decades. Onefortyone (talk) 23:37, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Did you know... that in the English language, the word "arguably" indicates that there are other plausible candidates for the status in question? Did you know... that two hours before your latest love letter to the Queen, the passage was emended as a result of a sane, productive, English-language exchange with Johnbod? DocKino (talk) 05:16, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I know that the word "arguably" indicates that there are other plausible candidates for the status in question. That's why I think that such statements are ridiculous, especially if they are cited in a featured article. Thanks for emending the said passage. Onefortyone (talk) 14:28, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

• Paul Robeson was indeed very famous when he was blacklisted, in 1948. This is utterly irrelevant to the statement in the article (I'll repeat it for your convenience): "Presley also heralded the vastly expanded reach of celebrity in the era of mass communication: at the age of 21, within a year of his first appearance on American network television, he was arguably the most famous person in the world."
• You have provided zero evidence that the vastly popular Presley was relatively "more favored by lower-class than by middle-class teenagers" compared to the very--but rather less--popular Boone. I see nothing in the poll with which you are obsessed that breaks down the respondents' opinions by economic class. Nor, in my considerable reading in the field, have I encountered any evidence to support your novel claim. Given Presley's unprecedented sales, it is most plausible to assume that he had large followings among teenagers of all economic classes. If you have any contrary evidence that directly addresses teenagers and class, please present it and we can consider whether and how it should be integrated into the present article or if it is more suitable for the topical article Cultural impact of Elvis Presley.

Boone had three No. 1 hits in 1957 ("Don't Forbid Me", "Love Letters In The Sand", "April Love") and still holds the Billboard record for spending 220 consecutive weeks on the charts with more than one song.

According to Barbara Ehrenreich, Elizabeth Hess and Gloria Jacobs, “Elvis was visibly lower class ... He represented an unassimilated white underclass that had been forgotten by mainstream suburban America – more accurately, he represented a middle-class caricature of poor whites. He was sleazy.” See Lisa A. Lewis (ed.), The Adoring Audience: Fan Culture and Popular Media (1992), p.100. According to Lucian K. Truscott, “Elvis Presley made lower class Americana sexy.” See New Times, vol. 9, 1977, p.7. According to Gilbert B. Rodman, “in the eyes of many (perhaps even most) of his fans, one of Elvis’s greatest virtues was that he never strayed terribly far from his working-class roots...” See Rodman, Elvis after Elvis: The Posthumous Career of a Living Legend (1996), p.73. Music critic and Presley biographer Dave Marsh says about the singer's fans: "There are people in places that count in the world, and people in places that don't. He is the son of the people who don't count, and their shining star. That's what makes him unique and what people still respond to." See "How Big Was The King? Elvis Presley's Legacy, 25 Years After His Death." CBS News, August 7, 2002. These quotes certainly support the view that Elvis’s music wasn’t favored by the middle and upper-class youth, as the opinion poll also shows. Onefortyone (talk) 23:37, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Did you know... that not a single one of the quotes you have provided actually establishes that "Elvis’s music wasn’t favored by the middle and upper-class youth"? Did you know... that not a single other person has read this article on Elvis Presley and experienced distress at Pat Boone's absence from it? DocKino (talk) 05:16, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Here are some further sources. “The growing varieties of popular music in the 1950s helped socialize young people into their ‘appropriate’ social classes. Coleman saw rock ‘n’ roll as the soundtrack for working-class youth.” See Joseph A. Kotarba and John M. Johnson, Postmodern Existential Sociology (2002), p.105. Mike Brake writes about Elvis: “The working-class Southern boy from the wrong side of town with sexy, black movements and voice spoke beyond the United States to working-class youth everywhere.” See Mike Brake, Comparative Youth Culture: The Sociology of Youth Cultures and Youth Subcultures in America, Britain, and Canada (1990), p.73. Social and cultural studies indicate that new Hollywood heroes such as Presley “became important models for rebellious young men from working and lower middle-class milieus”, whereas the group identity of highly educated middle- to upper-class youth was more “based upon cultural consumption and physical styles that advertised the fact that they - unlike their ‘social inferiors’ decked out in leather jackets and jeans - enjoyed elevated European-style tastes” (though some of them may have personally enjoyed Elvis movies and rock ‘n’ roll). See Heide Fehrenbach and Uta G. Poiger, Transactions, Transgressions, Transformations: American Culture in Western Europe and Japan (2000), p.102-103. Onefortyone (talk) 14:28, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

• You have voiced your personal displeasure with the fact that the editors have chosen to thread discussion of Presley's personal life throughout the article, rather than to create a discrete section for it (though there is, in fact, a subsection that specifically deals with the influence of his friends, the so-called Memphis Mafia). The fact is that his personal life is given the coverage it merits. Your personal preference for a different structural choice--one that is objectively no better or worse--is irrelevant to the FAC criteria. DocKino (talk) 05:22, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

I still do not think that in the Wikipedia article Elvis's personal life is given the coverage it merits - in comparison to all the other details mentioned in the text. All other Elvis biographies include much more material concerning his parents and friendships etc. There are even entire books dealing with these details. Onefortyone (talk) 23:37, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Did you know... that four other reviewers have apparently read through the entire article and offered their support without a single one even hinting that they agree with you on this issue? Did you know... that in addition to all of the coverage of personal matters in the present article, there is even an entire article dealing with these details, Personal relationships of Elvis Presley? DocKino (talk) 05:16, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

• Comment. The article contains several instances of invalid HTML; see the W3C validator report; can you please fix this? Thanks. Eubulides (talk) 07:48, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Done. PL290 (talk) 08:38, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks again. Eubulides (talk) 08:42, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

• Support - My opinion still stands from the last nomination; this is a fine article and it meets, perhaps even exceeds, the FA criteria. - I.M.S. (talk) 19:35, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
• Support I think enough has been done to address my concerns from the last review, & other improvements made - too many changes to follow in detail but a second read does not leave the same impression as the first. I think I'd be inclined to soften or drop the "most famous person in the world" claim. It's reminiscent of Lennon's "more famous than Jesus quote", but I'm dubious that in 1957 Anglosphere popular culture did have that reach to China, USSR & Soviet bloc, Africa & even much of Europe & South America. 1957 was just before the point where the transistor radio became cheap and popular, and so on. How many countries had he even been released in by that point? But I won't withold support for that, & otherwise its a very strong article. Johnbod (talk) 15:03, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

• Thanks for your observations in the last FAC--they led to definite improvements in the narrative.
• As noted, the claim in question is softened from our source with the addition of "arguably". Here's several other relevant references:
  • "In April 1956...after a couple of hit records and a handful of TV appearances, he was one of the most famous people in America, soon to be one of the most recognised on earth" (Ray Connolly, Daily Mail, 3-15-2002)
  • "By May his 'Heartbreak Hotel' was top of the charts in fourteen different countries" (Hunter Davies, The Beatles: The Authorized Biography, p. 34)
  • "the litany of 'youth culture' happenings in 1955 and 1956—the rise and fall of James Dean, the rise into a world-historical stratosphere of Elvis Presley" (Christian G. Appy, Cold War Constructions, p. 248)
  • In Refried Elvis: The Rise of the Mexican Counterculture, Eric Zolov describes how new overseas territories were becoming an increasingly important source of revenue for the major U.S. record labels in 1956–57. Among the countries cited in that regard outside of Western Europe are Australia, Brazil, Japan, South Africa, and Venezuela (p. 23).
  • "On February 3, 1957, the New York Times ran a story under the headline "Presley Records a Craze in Soviet Union." The paper reported that, although not officially released in the Soviet Union, bootleg recordings of his music were being pressed on discarded X-ray plates and sold on the black market in Leningrad for the equivalent of about $12." (Scott Schinder and Andy Schwartz, Icons of Rock: An Encyclopedia of the Legends Who Changed Music Forever, p. 14)
• Weighing your observation and the above, my inclination is to soften the claim a bit further from "arguably the most famous" to "one of the most famous" and to add the Soviet craze information to the history so the scope of his impact is more apparent in the narrative. DocKino (talk) 20:34, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Good idea. The Soviet info is interesting & unexpected (to me anyway, at that date), but I expoect most of the Soviet population had still not heard of him at that point (unless he was being mentioned by Soviet media as an example of Western decadence etc). Johnbod (talk) 20:53, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Done. DocKino (talk) 21:13, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Some general questions.

• A featured article should be comprehensive: it neglects no major facts or details and places the subject in context. To my mind, the present article neglects several details concerning the singer’s family, his personal relationships, and the world-wide Elvis industry.

• Did you know... (just reflecting on the couple rare specifics your mind has brought to the table) that the article already states that "several of [Presley's] family members had been alcoholics"? Did you know... that you are the only person living, dead, or avatared that believes the article would be improved by quoting Peter Guralnick to the effect that Gladys Love Presley was "full of spunk"? DocKino (talk) 11:35, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

• A featured article should be stable: it is not subject to ongoing edit wars and its content should not change significantly from day to day. In the past, there were several edit wars and many significant changes were frequently made.

• Did you know... that in the past the United States was at war with Germany, Italy, and Japan, but that this is no longer the case? Did you know... that you have been a central party in virtually every single edit war the article has been subjected to in living memory? DocKino (talk) 05:16, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

• A featured article should not be protected or semi-protected. In the past, the Presley article was frequently attacked by vandals and therefore protected. How can this problem be solved? Onefortyone (talk) 00:54, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

• There is absolutely no requirement that featured articles not be semi-protected or protected. Indeed, there are several that are permanently protected to some degree. --Andy Walsh (talk) 01:49, 5 February 2010 (UTC)