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Main case page (Talk) — Evidence (Talk) — Workshop (Talk) — Proposed decision (Talk)

Case clerk: Amorymeltzer (Talk) Drafting arbitrator: Hersfold (Talk)

This is a page for working on Arbitration decisions. The Arbitrators, parties to the case, and other editors may draft proposals and post them to this page for review and comments. Proposals may include proposed general principles, findings of fact, remedies, and enforcement provisions—the same format as is used in Arbitration Committee decisions. The bottom of the page may be used for overall analysis of the /Evidence and for general discussion of the case.

Any user may edit this workshop page. Please sign all suggestions and comments. Arbitrators will place proposed items they believe should be part of the final decision on the /Proposed decision page, which only Arbitrators and clerks may edit, for voting, clarification as well as implementation purposes.

Motions and requests by the parties

Motion on case scope

1) Given comments by User:Shell Kinney, I request that a motion be passed that this arbitration should only deal with disruption in the EE editing post-EEML. --Russavia ^{I'm chanting as we speak} 10:33, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Arbitrators:

I don't think we need a formal motion on this, but yes, I think we do expect this to be limited to on-going problems which means we expect to see recent diffs. In rare cases where there's an on-going pattern of behavior, it's appropriate to briefly mention that pattern, but any evidence that consists largely of stale problems will not be helpful to resolving the situation.

A good example of this would be - "Editor X has been edit warring about Trees.[diffs to edit warring, 3RR reports, discussions of edit warring] They have been edit warring about Trees for 3 years [brief diffs to old blocks for edit warring, reports of edit warring etc.] Editor X doesn't use dispute resolution. On April 1st, they edited Dogwood 22 times (5 were reverts [diffs]) without ever discussing on the talk page." - stay brief, to the point, keep your evidence full of actual evidence and present things factually rather than emotionally. The more we're overwhelmed with background noise from old issues, the less likely we'll be able to craft useful solutions to the current problem. Shell ^babelfish 05:40, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by parties:

I do not see why this case should be at all related to EEML. Just because two its participants have been previously involved in EEML case? But many other were not involved. All articles and disputes in question are related to Russia or USSR. Why Eastern Europe? I also agree with Colchicum. Only the behavior of members of the list has been examined by the Committee during the EEML case. Thus the motion could make sense only for them. As a practical matter, is it relevant that Russavia has been previously blocked for harassing me? Is it relevant that he invited Vlad_fedorov [1], Offliner [2], Igny, LokiiT [3],[4] and Donald Duck [5] to "deal" with me?Biophys (talk) 22:24, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I completed my evidence section. Can anyone take a look please and decide if we need to include more participants of the case? Thank you.Biophys (talk) 22:08, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

As the purpose of this case is to deescalate the battleground, the battleground has to be thoroughly examined from the very beginning in order to identify its causes. Otherwise the issue will be repeatedly relitigated forever. As it is painfully obvious that the battleground started well before the EEML, it is perfectly natural to look for its causes in the past. Furthermore, the scope of the EEML case was on the behavior of only one of the parties here in relation to the mailing list and not on "everyone involved". The pre-EEML individual patterns of disruption do belong here as long as they are not abandoned, and many of them aren't. Colchicum (talk) 12:11, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Motion for CU on Biophys

2) Given the amount of evidence related to Biophys proxying for banned HanzoHattori, and given that it was discovered in WP:EEML that EEML participant was sharing his account, I move for CU on Biophys to establish whether other users (HanzoHattori) were using his account. It would be helpful to check whether Biophys indeed himself was editing. Vlad fedorov (talk) 09:41, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Arbitrators:

Proxing != socking. Checkuser is not for fishing. Shell ^babelfish 15:12, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by parties:

I did not give my password to anyone, and no one else edited from my account so far. Since the question has been raised, I tried to edit biological subjects from two alternative accounts, ATMH (talk · contribs) and My very best wishes (talk · contribs) to avoid the constant harassment. But I could not do it. To be involved in hiding or deception is something I can not do. There is nothing else to disclose. My very best wishes.Biophys (talk) 14:44, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Vlad, whilst I can totally understand why you would be asking for this to be done, it doesn't appear to be within the scope of asking for check-user to be done. Also, as much as I do think that Biophys has been a long-term disruptive editor, I sincerely do not believe he would be stupid enough to lend anyone, particularly someone who is easily banned as Hanzo, his password - his account is too important to him to just throw away like that. --Russavia ^{I'm chanting as we speak} 05:17, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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Place here items of evidence (with diffs) and detailed analysis

Articles involving Saiga12, YMB29 and Mikkalai

I was indeed involved in edit warring in articles Red banner, Human rights in the Soviet Union and Battle for Height 776. My opponents were Saiga12 (talk · contribs) and YMB29 (talk · contribs) who made very few edits in the project, most of which are disruption or reverts (please check their edit history). Contrary to all our policies, they removed huge pieces of perfectly sourced content [6] [7], and one of them was involved in vandalism with numbers [8].

Moreover, one of them issued me a threat telling that "may be we can meet you in Moscow..." [9] and resorted to other incivility [10]. User:YMB29 did the same, launching a series of personal attacks [11],[12], [13], [14].

To add insult to injury, Mikkalai played a complicated game in these articles, pretending to be a neutral editor who created compromise versions [15], only to revert himself using one of his socks, Timurite, to a version he really wants [16] or intervene in "Human rights" as Dzied Bulbash [17][18].

Two first articles were "won" by YMB29 who reverted them to his preferred version [19], [20] because I followed 1-2 RR.

Battle for Height 776 was reverted to the more complete version with compromised numbers of losses [21]. Later on, a suspicious Revan2338 (talk · contribs) came to edit war (a sock of Saiga12?). How about blocking someone like him on spot? Biophys (talk) 21:26, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Re to Vlad below. It was me who substantially expanded "Human rights in the SU" article from the stab level, and I do include information you are talking about [22]. As about the "Battle for Height 776", that was my last expansion of content which is not identical to any previous version. The same with many other edits declared "reverts" by Russavia.Biophys (talk) 13:01, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

You keep on saying that your edits are perfectly sourced, and so no one has the right to modify or revert them? Sourcing is one thing and we know that you can source your edits, but as mentioned by others you have trouble with WP:RS, WP:SYNTH, WP:UNDUE, WP:Notability, WP:NPOV...

How many times can you make the same personal attack accusations against me? Where exactly do you see a personal attack in your diffs? Me saying that you misuse sources (and providing evidence of that) or warning you that I will report you to an admin are not examples of personal attacks...

As for Altenmann/Mikkalai/Timurite/Dzied Bulbash, funny how you yourself brought him to our editing conflict. [23] So I hope you are not implying that I was teaming up with him against you. -YMB29 (talk) 17:13, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by others:

Comment By Vlad_fedorov. Just face value. Please, note that in this Biophys' "piece of perfectly sourced content" the links to losses of Chechen militants are to Islamist propaganda website Kavkaz Center, and in non-Biophys version - to US Military site. This "piece of perfectly sourced content" removed essentially contends that criminalization of speculation is equal to Red terror, a notion related to Russian Civil War, but not to USSR which was established after Civil War. Nothing is said in this POVed text about price control in USSR and why it was important. Nothing is said how speculation affected the governmental price control. Just the text from opinionated Pipes and Albats projecting Red Terror on USSR without proper evaluation of White Terror. WP:SYNTH, WP:FRINGE, WP:ADVOCACY, and left long time ago by Biophys WP:NPOV.

Red Banner obscenity and disruption. I am not convinced by Biophys that antisemitic jokes about Rabinovich is a "huge piece of perfectly sourced content", or that this perfectly sourced obscene anecdote which says "What a whore! How many times I told her: Do not fuck on the Red Banner!" is a perfect addition wo WP. In each case there is no notability. On pretty much the same contention, Biophys could come to Ronald Reagan and insert many many Russian anectodes about that old daddy, or to Israelis and Chukchi people. Biophys are you really gonna do this?

Re Biophys. Biophys, you are showing us your edit in "Human rights in the SU" dated February 10, 2007 to prove something done by you in 2009-2010? You think it's really funny? Vlad fedorov (talk) 16:04, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Articles involving Ellol

Situation with Russian apartment bombings was more complicated (please see my explanation of this to Future_Perfect_at_Sunrise [24]. In my opinion, User:Ellol stalked and blindly reverted me in several pages. He started every day from reverting whatever I did ignoring all my compromise solutions. See: February 20,February 21,February 22,February 23. He also reverted me in other articles at the same time:[25], [26]. The dispute was "won" by Ellol who reverted page to his version [27], [28] because I followed 1-2 RR.

I avoided "blind" reverts to previous versions of this articles, extensively debated all disagreements [29],[30],[31],[32],[33] and asked an advice from an administrator who was on the "opposite side" [34]Biophys (talk) 21:26, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by Ellol

Your comment is simply to say, that your move to push through your POV was not supported by a party like in the case of Wikipedia Mailing List. However, you started pushing your view through, and did up to 20-30 reverts to your version. (Technically, you tried to contribute a little while making another reverts.) You attempted to resist your POV at the talk page, but after you were run out of arguments you stopped responsing.

The dispute ended, because

1) I provided the compromise version of the introduction, which suited all sides.

2) Your persistent attempts to insist on your version of the "Ryazan Incident" ended when I agreed to your version but found that you have omitted one important fact (the firing tests were done, and the fake explosives did not explode), supported by the up-to-date newspapers.

However, all of your contributions were ultimately agreed on, despite the cases where you attempted to remove valuable information. In fact, you won the case.

ellol (talk) 08:56, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by parties:

Re to Ellol. My "contributions were ultimately agreed on"? What? Just to start from something, this is my version of introduction: [35]. Please compare with your (current) version:[36] And everyone can easily see who made last reverts to "his" version (see my diffs above). I never tried to remove any valuable information from this or other articles, but I objected diluting articles with large quotes that totally duplicate another content that was already present in the article, like you did here.Biophys (talk) 13:18, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Re Ellol. "virtually all reverts you attempted to remove evidence that the fake explosives found in the Ryazan incident did not explode at firing tests". What? The episode when FSB allegedly tested at the firing range something they declared to be "sugar" was described in books, and I am fully aware of it (see my comment here). Therefore, I only moved this thing around, but did not remove it [37].Biophys (talk) 19:59, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

1) It was not the FSB, but a service of the city. 2) They tested the faked explosive, and it did not explode. This thing is referenced down to the primary source, a most influential independent Russian newspaper Kommersant. [38].

“

В Рязани в отличие от других городов обезвреживанием бомб занимаются не специалисты ФСБ, а муниципалы. ... Килограмм вещества, изъятого в доме, взрывотехники вывезли на свой полигон, расположенный в семи километрах от города. Там они попытались подорвать его с помощью детонатора, также изготовленного из охотничьего патрона, но взрыва не произошло.

”

Your Russiphobic secondary sources, obviously, are lying. Surprised? Why do you think Edward Lukas is commonly recognized as a Russophobe? Do you think it's because he helds an unfavourable but plausible view of Russia? Like hell, not. He is a Russophobe, because he lies, like you could see right now.

And IMHO, you should acknowledge to yourself, that you took the side which lied. Providing false evidence is one of the mortal sins. Consider that if you are a believer. ellol (talk) 20:36, 14 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Re to Biophys. Your point of view can be described as radical. However, my compromise version of the introduction fully reviews the point of view that you support, while viewing it only as one of possible viewpoints. It's more support than you would get while working with almost every Wikipedia editor. You are extremely lucky that you have me as an opponent.

@@ Line 473: / Line 473: @@
 ::::1) It was not the FSB, but a service of the city. 2) They tested the faked explosive, and it did not explode. This thing is referenced down to the primary source, a most influential independent Russian newspaper Kommersant. [http://kommersant.ru/doc.aspx?DocsID=226161].
 {{cquote|В Рязани в отличие от других городов обезвреживанием бомб занимаются не специалисты ФСБ, а муниципалы. ... Килограмм вещества, изъятого в доме, взрывотехники вывезли на свой полигон, расположенный в семи километрах от города. Там они попытались подорвать его с помощью детонатора, также изготовленного из охотничьего патрона, но взрыва не произошло.}}
-::::Your Russiphobic secondary sources, obviously, are lying. Surprised? Why do you think Edward Lukas is commonly recognized as a Russophobe? Do you think it's because he helds an unfavourable but plausible view of Russia? Like hell, not. He is a Russophobe, because he lies, like you could see right now. [[User:Ellol|ellol]] ([[User talk:Ellol|talk]]) 20:23, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
+::::Your Russiphobic secondary sources, obviously, are lying. Surprised? Why do you think Edward Lukas is commonly recognized as a Russophobe? Do you think it's because he helds an unfavourable but plausible view of Russia? Like hell, not. He is a Russophobe, because he lies, like you could see right now.
+::::And IMHO, you should acknowledge to yourself, that you took the side which lied. Providing false evidence is one of the mortal sins. Consider that if you are a believer. [[User:Ellol|ellol]] ([[User talk:Ellol|talk]]) 20:36, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
 ::Re to Biophys. Your point of view can be described as radical. However, my compromise version of the introduction fully reviews the point of view that you support, while viewing it only as one of possible viewpoints. It's more support than you would get while working with almost every Wikipedia editor. You are extremely lucky that you have me as an opponent.

Revision as of 20:36, 14 April 2010

Motions and requests by the parties

Motion on case scope

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Analysis of evidence

Articles involving Saiga12, YMB29 and Mikkalai

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General discussion