Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish actors: Difference between revisions

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List of Jewish actors

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Non-notable intersection, unlike Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish Nobel laureates, where the intersection is addressed by many reliable secondary sources. By its very nature, this list is a never-ending WP:BLP, WP:NOR and WP:V-violation magnet. I'm also trying to address the larger, systemic issue here; Wikipedia is littered with dozens of these lists, most of which suffer from the same issues; so why do the least problematic of them create such angst, while the most problematic are not seen as a concern? This needs to be addressed in a broad, not narrow, way. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:46, 26 November 2010 (UTC) Jayjg ^(talk) 01:45, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. —Jayjg ^(talk) 02:04, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete 1) This list is a constantly escalating WP:BATTLEGROUND and suffers from numerous WP:BLP issues. 2) I disagree that lists should be treated separate from categories in regard to this policy: "Inclusion must be specifically relevant to at least one of the subject's notable activities and an essential part of that activity, but is not required to be an exclusive interest. Moreover, inclusion is not transitive to any other activity. (For example: a notable LGBT activist is not automatically included in a corresponding LGBT musician category, unless also notable for one or more LGBT-related music compositions or performances.)" i.e., Unless this list is about individuals who participated in Yiddish theatre or some form of Jewish comedy, it is not a RELEVANT intersection. Bulldog123 02:51, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment This AfD is a clear violation of WP:POINT, the nominator is merely trying to make a point about a different AfD he does not like. Posting this AfD notice on the article in question will also serve to canvass supporters of List of Jewish actors to come and !vote against the AfD for List of Jewish Nobel laureates. betsythedevine (talk) 03:29, 26 November 2010 (UTC) Redacting, in the interests of WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF my earlier claim that this article was created to make a point; the nominator asserts that it is sincere. betsythedevine (talk) 04:57, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry to have to say that that's utter nonsense. This AfD is in perfectly good faith, about an article that obviously discusses a non-notable intersection. And I notice that you didn't make the same claim when Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of ethnic Chinese Nobel laureates was also discussed on the other AfD page, and subsequently nominated for deletion. Please redact your untrue comment, discuss whether you think List of Jewish actors should exist, and please act with more personal consistency in the future. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:39, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am glad to see you have just expanded the intro to this AfD so that it reads more like an AfD nomination and less like a link advertising a different AfD. The Chinese Nobel laureate AfD you mention was clearly sincere, strongly argued by the nominator from its inception, and in fact had been mentioned by the nominator as an AfD already. I did not think that one was WP:POINTY; I did think yours was. Also, let me add that, without asserting that your motivation was to WP:CANVASS, I believe this AfD will have that effect.betsythedevine (talk) 04:44, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As I've already explained to you, this AfD is entirely sincere. Falsely claiming I made this nomination as a WP:POINT or WP:CANVASS is a violation of three policies, WP:AGF, WP:NPA, and WP:CIVIL. In addition, it's a violation of common sense; why on earth could this nomination "canvass" people to !vote in another AfD? If you read through my lengthy comments on the List of Jewish actors Talk: page and archive, you'll see that I have been expressing the same concerns about this list for months now; and, in fact, have been promoting the exact same inclusion criteria there that I promoted on the List of Jewish Nobel Laureates. Unlike those who are trying to delete Jewish lists because they're annoyed one specific individual is included on them, I'm trying to solve systemic issues, and I really do want this article to be deleted. I wouldn't have nominated it otherwise. Now, for what I'm really hoping is the last time, please redact your claims, and actually assume good faith. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:51, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

keep Whilst I understand the nominators reasons, he has been the biggest contributor to cleaning up the article and appears to have come to the conclusion that the job is too big to manage; however I have to disagree with the nomination.1) compared to other Jewish categories this hardly a WP:Battleground only two heated debates in the 4 years the article has existed both were resolved in good faith and neither formed a revert war. 2) This is not a non-notable intersection The majority of people on the list have made some attempt to connect with Jewish Culture by playing Jewish roles, this is the definition of a notable intersection. Some editors would like to make this more specific limiting entry to those who have performed in Jewish Theatre for instance, however WP:EGRS says "a notable LGBT activist is not automatically included in a corresponding LGBT musician category, unless also notable for one or more LGBT-related music compositions or performances." note it does attempt to limit this to LGBT cabaret musical compositions but any LGBT composition or performance which could exist within a non-LGBT concerto or Show, this should be the same for any Jewish acting performance of Jewish relevance even within an non-Jewish centric film or play. I'd also add that the list is a better place to deal with WP:V, and WP:BLP issues where we can explain any conflict rather than these people ending up in a Category where the criteria for inclusion can't be explained. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 07:50, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"The majority of people on the list have made some attempt to connect with Jewish Culture by playing Jewish roles" Where on earth are you getting this? The VAST majority of the people on this list have absolutely no connection to any type of Jewish performance art at all. 90% of the American population could not even identify half of this list as Jewish. Take a look at the born in the 1980s section. Perhaps with the very loose association of Seth Rogen and Jonah Hill to Jewish comedy, not a single person on that list has participated or had any association with anything making them a "Jewish actor" -- unless you consider playing a Jewish role somehow makes you a "Jewish actor." In which case we should add a lot of gentiles to the list too. Bulldog123 12:50, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Those born in the 80's and 90's are less likely to have a portfolio of work that includes specifically Jewish Roles however there are some standouts there "Jason Fuchs" is cited as appearing in Holy Rollers a film about hassidic Jews, as is "Ari Graynor", There's also a few from Inglorious Basterds which again is about Jewish Soldiers during WWII. I'm sure if I go through the list with fine toothcomb I can throw up roles for a significant proportion of the whole list although as you say the further back you go the more overt some of the roles are. The difference between a Gentile playing Jewish and an actual Jew playing a Jew is that the Jewish person has the ability to challenge or reinforce stereotypes in their connection with the culture that represents them, a Gentile just plays the character with no investment in the culture he or she represents. Generally if a gentile is playing the character put the character in a list of Jewish characters if a Jew is playing the character and particularly if the role speaks heavily into Jewish life or culture then they should be on this list. Yes the list needs cleaned - no-one doubts that and JayJG has done more that anyone to achieve that improvement, there are even people in here who aren't actors but that doesn't mean that the article itsself has to be deleted. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 13:44, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom, and Talk:List_of_Jewish_actors#Why_this_is_such_a_bad_article. The topic of Jewish actors may well be notable and a potentially valid subject of a standalone article, but the concept of a bare list of Jewish actors as has been created here does not have similar notability and significant coverage in reliable sources. --JN466 07:59, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - I'm concerned about the size, and notability requirements of this article, but the general topic appears to be notable by the current criteria. This is a discussed and distinguishable criteria. The scope needs to be clearly defined, but as a general rule I think it's notable. Shadowjams (talk) 10:25, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Would you be willing to post what you consider the "distinguishable criteria" being used for this list to be? I see someone has made a good-faith effort to make the criteria more precise, and in the process of adding lots of words has shown how undefinable the criteria really are. Townlake (talk) 15:43, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nominator's arguments, and policy mismatch.--Therexbanner (talk) 19:25, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 01:15, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete No clear criteria for inclusion or exclusion, and establishing such criteria would be inherently controversial. If anything, the link to "Who is a Jew?" only drives this point home. Townlake (talk) 18:25, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete No clear non-contravertial criteria for inclusion or exclusion. Span (talk) 00:42, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Notable intersection, as evidenced amply by the 600-plus refs. Ample coverage of the intersection in RSs.--Epeefleche (talk) 07:32, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Do you even understand how little sense that made? This is a direct translation of your argument: This is a notable intersection because people exist in this world who are Jewish and who are actors. Please show me how the fact that Gwenyth Paltrow's great-grandfather was a rabbi has a bearing on her career as an actress. Bulldog123 15:17, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

keep Per Stuart's mentioned improvements below which show that this is an intersection which has reliable sources talking specifically about the intersection. That should be enough to make an intersection notable. JoshuaZ (talk) 18:27, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Per nominator. Also, simply WAY too broad a topic. Would make more sense if it were, for example, a "List of Jewish American actors" with a corresponding article on the subject. Plot Spoiler (talk) 19:31, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Improvements

I have rewritten the lead with clear uncontroversial inclusion criteria and removing the ambiguous use of Who is a Jew? There is substantial coverage of the subject such as

Acting Jewish: negotiating ethnicity on the American stage & screen By Henry Bial
In Search of American Jewish Culture‎ by Stephen J. Whitfield
From the Lower East Side to Hollywood: Jews in American popular culture‎ by Paul Buhle
Over the top Judaism:precedents and trends in the depiction of Jewish beliefs and observances in film and television by Elliot Gertel
Making Americans: Jews and the Broadway musical‎ by Andrea Most

The list needs cleaning to remove entries that do not fit the new inclusion criteria and it would be helpful if a prose article on the subject using the above references amongst others could be written but hopefully this move in the right direction might help some of those asking for a delete to reconsider. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 15:45, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

While I applaud your efforts, I still consider the criteria ambiguous. Further, it is somewhat telling that one person is attempting to declare a new set of criteria he just created "uncontroversial." (Nothing personal, just assessing the situation.) My concerns remain. Townlake (talk) 16:44, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Then please expand your concern so that any further ambiguity can be removed from the criteria, I've discussed the criteria as reason for retaining&improving the article in several locations and the criteria have never been disputed. However no-one until this AFD ever requested that they be included at the top of the list, since they have not been controversial in the past adding them to the article as uncontroversial seemed reasonable. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 17:18, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Circling back to my original rationale, "Establishing such criteria would be inherently controversial." I'm not going to pretend I can tell you how to fix this. My point is that the criteria cannot be unambiguously fixed, mostly because the definition of "Jewish" is often different for different Wikipedia users. Townlake (talk) 17:37, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Which is why I've worded the the criteria to be based on definitions made by reliable sources and not those made by individual editors. This is basic WP:V and WP:N . I should add that this is the same policy implemented by the nominator in many Jewish articles including this one and though it took me a short while to see superiority of it, I do believe that it is the only policy compliant way to do it. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 19:14, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as non-notable intersection. And the new "criteria" ("notable for being Jewish"?), aside from not matching the list title, are original research that could never properly pass WP:V. The fact is, the majority of (caucasian) actors have played a Jewish role - so the criteria that someone had to have played a Jewish role to be included is pretty odd, aside from, again, being original research (and what constitutes a "Jewish role"? That could be argued about for far longer than is worth). All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 20:26, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Please review WP:EGRS#General point 4 a notable LGBT activist is not automatically included in a corresponding LGBT musician category, unless also notable for one or more LGBT-related music compositions or performances. replace "LGBT" with "Jewish" and "Musician" with "Actor" for comparison (obviously "activist" and "music composition" would have to be changed as well) . The name and context are in line with this, representations of Jewish culture by those associated with it are a notable intersection per the above sources. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 20:54, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - WP:EGRS#General point 4 refers to categories, not lists. It was also added in by a single user after no discussion (in July 2009), so I don't exactly take it as gospel. A "List of Jewish actors" would contain people who are both Jewish and actors. If you wanted to create a "List of actors notable for being Jewish", that would be a different story, although, if you think "Who is a Jew" is a contentious issue, I don't know how you would ever start defining "Who is notable for being a Jew". The criteria you put forth are original research (if you want to make it "List of Jewish actors who have played a Jewish role", change the title to that, but it seems useless). BTW, I didn't delete the part you added that started with "All entries should be accompanied by a reliable source identifying the individual as Jewish..." This part does help support WP:V and WP:NOR. But the other criteria don't. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 21:00, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - per WP:LISTNAME
    The title is not expected to contain a complete description of the list's subject. Many lists are not intended to contain every possible member, but this does not need to be explained in the title itself. For example, the correct choice is List of people from the Isle of Wight, not "List of people who were born on or strongly associated with the Isle of Wight and about whom Wikipedia has an article". Instead, the detailed criteria for inclusion should be described in the lead, and a reasonably concise title should be chosen for the list. In general, words likenotable, famous, noted, prominent, etc. should not be included in the title of a list article. Similarly, avoid titles like Xs and list of all Xs.

If you disagree with the guideline then change the guideline, it is in place and has not been reverted it is a sensible rule of thumbrule for categorising any individual whether within a category, list, infobox or any other way that. I have shown RS in this AfD that it is however also compliant withWP:LISTPEOPLE.

For example, lists of atheists doesn't include every individual with a Wikipedia article who happens to be an atheist, because not all of them are notable for their atheism. However, it might well include Sigmund Freud.

Not all Jewish Actors are notable for being Jewish Actors, however those that are should be listed. You want to delete as non-notable intersection yet are deliberately resisting moves to clarifying the specifically notable intersection contained within. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 21:16, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 48: / Line 48: @@
 **Please review [[WP:EGRS#General]] point 4 '''a notable LGBT activist is not automatically included in a corresponding LGBT musician category, unless also notable for one or more LGBT-related music compositions or performances.''' replace "LGBT" with "Jewish" and "Musician" with "Actor" for comparison (obviously "activist" and "music composition" would have to be changed as well)  . The name and context are in line with this, representations of Jewish culture by those associated with it are a notable intersection per the above sources. [[User:Stuart.Jamieson|Stuart.Jamieson]] ([[User talk:Stuart.Jamieson|talk]]) 20:54, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
 ***[[WP:EGRS#General]] point 4 refers to categories, not lists. It was also added in by a single user after no discussion (in July 2009), so I don't exactly take it as gospel. A "List of Jewish actors" would contain people who are both Jewish and actors. If you wanted to create a "List of actors notable for being Jewish", that would be a different story, although, if you think "Who is a Jew" is a contentious issue, I don't know how you would ever start defining "Who is notable for being a Jew". The criteria you put forth are original research (if you want to make it "List of Jewish actors who have played a Jewish role", change the title to that, but it seems useless). BTW, I didn't delete the part you added that started with "All entries should be accompanied by a reliable source identifying the individual as Jewish..." This part does help support [[WP:V]] and [[WP:NOR]]. But the other criteria don't. [[User:All Hallow&#39;s Wraith|All Hallow&#39;s Wraith]] ([[User talk:All Hallow&#39;s Wraith|talk]]) 21:00, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
+***per [[WP:LISTNAME]] <div>The title is not expected to contain a complete description of the list's subject. Many lists are not intended to contain every possible member, but this does not need to be explained in the title itself. For example, the correct choice is List of people from the Isle of Wight, not "List of people who were born on or strongly associated with the Isle of Wight and about whom Wikipedia has an article". Instead, the detailed criteria for inclusion should be described in the lead, and a reasonably concise title should be chosen for the list. In general, words likenotable, famous, noted, prominent, etc. should not be included in the title of a list article. Similarly, avoid titles like Xs and list of all Xs.</div>
+::::If you disagree with the guideline then change the guideline, it is in place and has not been reverted it is a sensible rule of thumbrule for categorising any individual whether within a category, list, infobox or any other way that. I have shown RS in this AfD that it is however also compliant with[[WP:LISTPEOPLE]].
+<div>For example, lists of atheists doesn't include every individual with a Wikipedia article who happens to be an atheist, because not all of them are notable for their atheism. However, it might well include Sigmund Freud.</div>
+::::Not all Jewish Actors are notable for being Jewish Actors, however those that are should be listed. You want to delete as non-notable intersection yet are deliberately resisting moves to clarifying the specifically notable intersection contained within. [[User:Stuart.Jamieson|Stuart.Jamieson]] ([[User talk:Stuart.Jamieson|talk]]) 21:16, 28 November 2010 (UTC)