Talk:Juan Manuel de Rosas

Who is the most knowledgeable and well known historian over this topic?

I will find out for you, since this article is terrible and in need of much work on economic/social/historic background, and made mostly on biased comments by his opponents, the "unitarios" (as Sarmiento). The power of Rosas cannot be explained solely by saying he had a lot of cattle and had a strong personality that appealed the gauchos. There are also other inaccuracies. I will list them in terrible order also, since I'm not used to work in Wikipedia and not used to your customs and rigour standards.

1.- He didn't control the whole of the pampa cattle frontier, if you consider that it was distributed in different provincies and amongst different "estancieros" or large ranch owners. 2.- Can't tell which European expeditionary forces he defeated. This is doubtful. He did battle an Anglo-French force that tried to establish free navigation of the Paranà river (and free trade), but the battery that tried to stop the ships was defeated ("Vuelta de Obligado"). When I say defeated I mean that they couldn't fulfil its objective: stopping the ships. 3.- Besides the term "nation" applied to what at that time was a confederation of provincies with loose political ties (there was not even a Constitution accepted by all), Rosas could not be defined as a "dictator" for all the provincies. It's a bit more complex. He was indeed the more powerful caudillo, but he was not the only one. He was only in charge of relationships with other countries, and had no formal power over the other provincies and caudillos -even if, informally, he was the puppet-master. To reach to that position, he had to fight unitarios and federales (his "own" "party"/or faction - even if he was not very "federal" himself), and -probably- kill other caudillos, as Facundo Quiroga. 3.- "Rosas attempted to reincorporate Uruguay and Paraguay as Argentinean provinces..." This is inaccurate. The "Pronunciamiento de Urquiza", the act by which Urquiza, Entre Rìos "caudillo", declared its intentions of owerthrowing Rosas, was triggered by other political events, but mostly by Urquiza's intention of liberating its trade with Brazil and foreign powers in certain goods for its own profit. Also, the puny "unitario" force in Montevideo could hardly represent a problem for Rosas, even if he besieged through allies and own forces the city for a long time before. There are specific economic reasons that can explain the rise and fall or Rosas ("saladero" cycle and new agricultural/pecuarian cycles rising at his fall) that can better explain this. Britain was a major player in all this period, trying to find a valuable associate in the pampas to introduce its industrial goods and buy cattle and grain, and Rosas was not the correct person for doing this at that time. 4.- "Rosas wanted to rid Argentina of European influence and cultivate a feeling of nationalism among Argentinians..." Well, in fact commerce with European powers thrived in some periods under Rosas, so we can hardly say that he wanted to "rid" Argentina of their influence. European businessmen were established in Buenos Aires and were influent during periods of Rosas government

I really need more reading on the subject, but I'll try to help with a new article for this guy, who influenced the "country"'s life for a good buch of years. FLRD

Life of Rosas

I've added some coments on the article about his treatment of the indigeous people. The article did not mention that he was a fluid speaker of the pampa language, and a close firends with many Native-American Leaders, which I have added now.

However, you are right, this article does nead a big cleanup. And some good resources as well. At the resources I have added one of the most complete and impartial (which when it comes to Rosas' life, it's really hard to get) books written about Rosas. The biography in question is entitled Juan Manuel de Rosas, and it was written by Argentine Historian Pacho O'Donnell.

If it's okay, I will use this very complete biography to add some much needed info in this article, by translating many of its passages from Spanish to English. However, since English is my second language, I'm sure that it will requiere some spellchecking.

I agree that the article can be improved. But contributions should be clearly sourced and readable. I find the additions merely anecdotic and of poor quality with tons of grammar and spelling mistakes. Bakersville 17:51, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I give up

Okay I just give up. It doesn't matter what I do, how much I actually specify my sources, everything I contribute gets deleted. And for reasons that I don't even understand. The fact that he ran away actually specifies WHY he changed his name, something that is not explained on the original article. Also that he participated on the British Invasions but not on the May Revolution shows that even at an early age he considered more important to defend the nation than doing revolts, Rosas was a leader that, to him, obediance and complete order was very important. And as the explanation on how he handled his relatins with Native Americans Tribes shows how different his relation with them was when comparing them with other people of that time. Rosas negotiated with them, treating as foreign leaders and respecting them as such, while other pople like Sarmiento, Mitre and Roca treated them as inferior beings, not even humans, and slaughtered. The article also fails to mention that the decition to execute O'Gorman was one that he regreted for the rest of his life, and that he had severe pressure from the Catholic Church (protecting the church was one of the three terms and conditions that he had to do while in office), and that even the press released by his political enemies in Montevideo, the Unitarios, constantly wrote that that relation between O'Gorman and the priest showed how Rosas' government didn't respect even the most sacred things by allowing this to happen. Also, the article doesn't mention that, after he was appointed as governor on his second term, Rosas only accepted after a suffrage of Buenos Aires, to see if the people actually wanted him as governor (a sufragge which he won).

Again, I clearly stated my sources, the biography written by Argentine Historian Pacho O'Donnell, but it seems that its not enough for you.

Also, I don't understan why this gets erased, since other articles in Wikipedia state things that would also be considered 'trivial information' and 'anechdotes', like how Mr. Roger's car was stolen, or how El Cid came to obtain his war horse. And those things don't get erased.

I just give up. I have more important things to do than to edit an article, and seeing my additions eraesed like that is just too frustrating. So I'll just leave.

Before I leave, I would like to do one more thing. I Dispute the Neutrality of this Article. It clearly focuses on 'Rosas is a dictator/tyrant' and it does not mention all the things he did for Argentina, like keeping it together (if it weren't for Rosas, Argentina would have been divided into several different countries), defending its soverignity, and setting the bases for a centralized government under one authority. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lucasliso (talk • contribs) 14:32, 26 March 2007 (UTC).

The information at the bottom of the article is incorrect. Rosas was never the President of Argentina, since Argentina used a federative system. He was just the governor of the Buenos Aires Province. This article should be corrected as soon as possible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.80.140.130 (talk) 17:39, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

President??

Rosas was NEVER the president of Argentina, only the governor of Buenos Aires. He had a lot of power over other provincies, but he was not president.- —Preceding unsigned comment added by Furgonero (talk • contribs) 04:21, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Is there a photograph of Rosas?

Is there a photograph of Rosas? --Lecen (talk) 17:39, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

No, there isn't. The technology was already available, but Rosas rejected to pose for one. He considered that it was a "foreign" thing, or something like that. Of course, photos of this time period needed the subject to pose for some time, "casual" photos did not exist yet, so if someone did not want to pose for a photo, then no photo. MBelgrano (talk) 18:14, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Odd. I could understand such behavior until 1852. But he lived until the 1870s, when photographs became quite common. It's shame he never allowed to have a picture from him. Thank you. --Lecen (talk) 18:24, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Anglo-French blockade

While the whole article is rather weak, this section seems crippled. It more or less sizzles out in a context description and doesn't really go over the culminating conflicts involved, the Battle of Vuelta de Obligado, a costly victory by Anglo-French forces followed by the Battle of Quebracho, where the European invaders are repulsed. See here, on the site of Buenos Aires' British Cemetery about Juan Bautista Thorne, the son of a US Independence War veteran that arrived in Argentina around 1825 and fought in various battles under Rosas, for brief descriptions of the battles in Spanish. Who is like God? (talk) 15:05, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

POV

The article as of today has only praise in the introductory section. There are plenty of respectable opinions that he was a brutal dictator. In Argentina federalist Rosas's name is not strongly represented in place names, but his arch-enemy unitarian Sarmiento (who said about Rosas "Barbarians! Men can be killed, but not ideas") is widely commemorated. The article seems to support largely the federalist side of the unitarian-federalist conflict (unitarians wanted a single country, federalists a country made of a federation of states); unitarians are described, without reference, as running a reign of terror. Pol098 (talk) 12:15, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Actually, the initial rejection of Rosas was politically biased, and not the result of impartial historiographic research, see the section at the end. The ideas of Sarmiento or Mitre about Rosas are long outdated, and Rosas is currently recognized as an Argentine hero as well (see "legacy" section). Rosas perspective about national organization is already mentioned, and the modern criticism held about him (his refusal to call for a new constituent assembly) is mentioned as well. As for the unitarians wanting Argentina as a single country, have you heard about the september 11 revolution of 1852? Cambalachero (talk) 13:14, 13 April 2011 (UTC)