Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/White Latin American

White Latin American

White Latin American (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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This article creates an ehtnic group out of a synthesis of statistical artefacts, and should be deleted per WP:OR WP:SYNTH, WP:NEOLOGISM and merged/redirected to Demographics of Latin America or Race and Ethnicity in Latin America. The precedent was set in the deletion discussion of White Argentine where it was shown that there is no such group except as a statistical artefact of census data. The same holds for this group, indeed for some countries it is not even that - for example Mexico has not included race in its censuses since 1921 - that means that there osn't even reliabel statistical information about any group called "white" for that country and indeed the literature on race (e.g. Nutini and Isaac 2009) stress that racial categories are completely fluent and situational, and mostly correlates with class and certain folk definitions that are not consistently applied.

There is no body of literature that considers "white people" in Latin America to form a coherent whol about which it is possible to make general statements. Rather the literature on race in Latin America always states that there is wide variability about what being "white" means in different latin american countries. The only source that supports this usage is A source by a minor Mexcian sociologists Francsico Lizcano who openly admits that his usage of "etnia" for racial groupins is non-standard - and then of course the CIA worldfact book which just analyses demographics in all countries according to American racial categories, but has no scientific credibility. The fact that the term has been "occasionally used" does not mean that this justifies an article about the subject, especially not in the face of an ample literature that testifies to the non-existence of the concept as a valid group.

The article also has the OR, POV problem that it uses a very narrow folk definition of "white" which stresses genetics, descent and phenotype - ignoring the vast literaturew showing that in most of Latin America the main correlate of being White is social status and that classification into the "white" depends more on economic than on biological heritage.

It also incidentally violates WP:EGRS through its picture cavalcade by attributing people to the category "White" based solely on their appearance or others evaluation of it.·Maunus·ƛ· 13:09, 20 April 2011 (UTC) ·Maunus·ƛ· 13:38, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ethnic groups-related deletion discussions. -- -- Favonian (talk) 14:05, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Latin America-related deletion discussions. -- Favonian (talk) 14:08, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

• Keep This article covers a significant proportion of Latin America's population. Here some reasons:

1) Afro Latin Americans and Amerindian Americans already have their own articles, so it is fair that Euro-descendants have it too.

2) There are several countries in the region that conduct ethnic/racial censuses or surveys with categories that allow people to identify themselves as White/Branco/Blanco. The existance of official figures on this matter already justify an article about it. The countries with racial censuses/studies are:

• Brasil: IGBE: Pesquisa Nacional por Amostra de Domicilio. Tabela 262 - População residente, por cor ou raça.
• Cuba: Censo de Cuba
• Puerto Rico: US Census Bureau: 2005-2009 American Community Survey.
• Uruguay: Encuesta Continua de Hogares 1996-1997. Instituto Nacional de Estadística de Uruguay. and Encuesta Nacional de Hogares Ampliada, 2006: Ascendencia.

3) In the cases of countries which do not conduct racial/ethnic censuses, there are international sources that provide fair estimates. The CIA Factbook and Encyclopaedia Britannica are well reputed sources, among others. In the case of Argentina, for example, I have at least five sources that confirm that at least 80% of its population is European/White: World Statesmen.org: Argentina Argentina: People: Ethnic Groups. Composición Étnica de las Tres Áreas Culturales del Continente Americano al Comienzo del Siglo XXI by Francisco Lizcano Fernández. page 218, UAEM (2005). Ethnic Groups Worldwide: A Ready Reference Handbook. by David Levinson. Page 313. Greenwood Publishing Group, 1998. ISBN 1573560197 World Fact File. Dorling Kindersley Books Limited, London.

4) Lizcano Fernández's work Composición Étnica de las Tres Áreas Culturales del Continente Americano al Comienzo del Siglo XXI is always misvalued. Whether you like it or not, the man is an eminence in its field, and his work was published by a well-reputed university. You are intitled to dislike his work or conclussions, but that does not diminish the value of the study.

5) There are other studies that deal on how many Latin Americans self-identify as "Whites". For example this survey named ECoSocial done in 2007. I provide links for both versions in Spanish and Portuguese: Etnia, condiciones de vida y discriminación. (Spanish) and EcoSocial 2007 (Portugués)

6) Recently I found this article: Whiteness in Latin America: Measurement and Meaning in National Censuses (1850-1950) written by Mara Loveman. Journal de la Société des Américanistes. Vol. 95-2, 2009. I planned to add her conclusions to the article, but I was bussy and had no time to do it. I think that further studies on the matter of Whiteness in Latin America exist: they have to be found and add to the article.

7) If what bothers detractors of this article is the template of "ethnic group", I may agree in its removal and replacement by another template that suits the content of the article. I also may agree in a name change to "Latin Americans of European descent".

The way I see it, there are plenty of sources to back up the existance of White people in Latin America, and to assess very fairly its demographic importance. This article surely needs improvement, but by no means it should be deleted.--Pablozeta (talk) 16:50, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Nobody is arguing that there ar enot people who identify as white in Latin America - what is debated is whether they can be meaningfully treated as a single group. None of your sources show this to be the case.Your statements that some individual countries have white groups in their censuses or in the national demographic classification cannot be used to justofy the larger concept. Whether or not "African Latin Americans" and "American indians" have pages is firstly irrelevant for the merits of this article, secondly wikipedia has no such concept as "fair" - but operates only on what can be showe in sources. "Fair estimates" from the Factbook may be enough to provide circumstantial mention within an article - it is by no means enough to show notability of a subject and the factbook do in anycase never treats latin american whites as a single group but only as demographic segments within single latin american countries. The Lizcano source is fringe and uses the concept in a non-standard way - and even admits to do so - he is by no means eminent in his field and the Universtiy of Toluca where he works is a minor state university within Mexico and has no international credentials to speak of. Your source number six is the closest thing to a passable source that you have produced, but it treats the ways in whiuch Whiteness is different among Latin American nations and does not at all pretend to establish the unity of "white latin americans" as a single group. ·Maunus·ƛ· 18:12, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

• Delete. As Maunus notes, this is OR/SYNTH and violates WP:BLP policy. Frankly, Wikipedia would be well rid of racist nonsense like this in any case - it is pushing a POV based on nothing but discredited 'science' and on a systematic misinterpretation of ethnicity - it is an insult to the people of Latin America that their identity should be presented in such a way by a group of contributors clearly intent on ignoring the complexities of Latin America, and instead painting a picture of racial distinctness and superiority. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:47, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
• Keep From their statements it is clear that Maunus and AndyTheGrump see this as as poll on whether there exists a race of White Latin Americans. Consistent with their long-term POVs against race as a biological concept they therefore wish to delete this article. That is irrelevant since it is clear that the concept exists as an important social phenomenon in many Latin American nations. Similarly, Maunus spent a great deal of effort in trying to convince others to get Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/White American (2nd nomination) deleted. Which is even more absurd, that many people identify as white American is beyond doubt and the concept is obviously important. This is similar.Miradre (talk) 18:53, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

• The fcat that there exist groups that identify as white in individual latin american countries does not mean that the larger grouping is justified. Note that policy based arguments surely will be than ad hominem arguments. On that note maybe I should note that Miradre is a Single Purpose Account dedicated to pushing a pro-White Nationalist viewpoint across a wide range of articles. ·Maunus·ƛ· 18:59, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

• I will briefly allow you to retract your personal attack before reporting you. I personally believe that races are exists and are important unlike yourself. I am not a "White Nationalist". How do you even know that I am white? Miradre (talk) 19:09, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

I have not called you a white nationalist, nor have made any speculations about your race. You could be Samuel L. Jackson or Jon Stewart, but that would not change the fact that every edit you have made in your brief career here has been made in the context of pushing a pro-White Nationalist viewpoint. Whether you agree with that viewpoint on a personal level I could not care less about, and I have not made any statement to that effect. If do not feel that my description of your editing pattern is unfair in the least, nor do I mean that statement as a personal attack, but as a rebuttal to your characterization of my views made above, meant to put your offered opinion of me in its proper context. If you decide to report me I urge you to remember that you have in fact previously made a statement[1] to the effect that the Miradre account is an sockpuppet account that you use specifically to make controversial edits that you do not want to be associated with your main account - I would consider that in itself an admittance of SPA and advocacy status - the pov that you are pushing is obvious to anyone familiar with your edit. ·Maunus·ƛ· 19:29, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

• I have not stated that I am a SPA so that is another incivility. I am not a "White Nationalist". Regarding for example immigration, I prefer systems such as in Australia and Canada, where those with education and skills that are needed are selected, regardless of skin color. Now that I have clarified I ask you to take back your personal attack.Miradre (talk) 19:38, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

There is no attack to retract. I have made no comments or speculations about your beliefs or personality - I have made a characterization of your edit pattern that I believe to be completely accurate. regardless of your viewpoints each single edit of yours that I have seen you make has accomplished one of x functions: 1. Present arguments supporting hypotheses ascribing inferior innate abilities in persons that would in the US be classified as black. This includes supporting a particular hypothesis regarding the nature of intelligence and a particular hypothesis regarding the biological classification of humans and supporting a particular hypothesis regarding that explains social phenomena such as crime and migration in terms of those particular views of intelligence and race. 2. edits that either provide minimal context of opposing views or directly misrepresent them. These hypothesese regarding intelligence and race that you have provided supprting evidence in favour of - and specifically the combinatoin of these two hypotheses to explain social phenomena are only commonly advocated by groups that I can only try to describe somewhat neutrally by calling them "White nationalist". You may have made certain article space edits outside of the mentioned areas, but this, but I will generously estimate that they make up less than 5% of your total article space edits. That is all.·Maunus·ƛ· 20:48, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

You yourself stated quite clearly that your intention for creating a new account was to conceal your identity while you edited these controversial topics: "Yes, I have edited under another username before. But I did not change the name because I was banned. Obviously when editing such a highly controversial topic I want to remain anonymous.". aprock (talk) 19:44, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

I have also stated that I edit a broad range of article which excludes SPA.Miradre (talk) 19:53, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

You may have stated that, but your edit history states otherwise: [2]. aprock (talk) 20:01, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Not sure what your point is. Yes, I think races exist and are important. But not for individuals, there is to much overlap, I judge them on personal merit. Race is only important as a group phenomenon. Maybe we should get back to discussing the AfD? The personal attack was Maunus's and can be solved if he retracts it.Miradre (talk) 20:07, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

I fully understand that you must find my descriptions your edits uncomfortable, I am sorry for this and making you feel uncorfortable is not my intention or purpose here - only as I say to put your comments into what I believe to be the correct context. I will however mention that you could have avoided this digression from "discussing the AfD" had you not opened your participation in this AfD with an logical fallacy ad hominem[3] that I had no possibility of letting stand without proper contextualization. (Also let me note that you do in fact make a characterization of "my pov" (which I can only take to mean my personal political stance - whereas I only make statements that characterize your edithistory and which can be verified or falsified by anyone who bothers to look))·Maunus·ƛ· 20:55, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

If you think he (or I) have breached civility, by all means take it up at WP:WQA. aprock (talk) 20:12, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

• As stated I hope he will solve this by retracting his attack after I have now explained my position. I again suggest we get back to AfD while waiting for this.Miradre (talk) 20:17, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

• Regarding the AfD, if you yourself admit that "there exist groups that identify as white in individual latin american countries", then it is appropriate to have an article to discuss this phenomenon.Miradre (talk) 19:09, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

No that means that those particular national groups may have sufficient third hand coverage to have their own articles. ·Maunus·ƛ· 19:29, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

• Delete per the careful reasoning offered by Maunus. Mathsci (talk) 19:02, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

• I felt almost lonely with only Maunus here and not you.Miradre (talk) 19:21, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

• What exactly is the point of this comment? There are several editors who have some expertise in anthropology in Central and South America. Maunus is one of them. There are others and wikipedia is lucky to have them as editors. Mathsci (talk) 19:26, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

• Delete per Maunus does not apply to any applicable grouping Kotorian1 (talk) 20:47, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

• Strong Keep - A search on Google books reveals more than enough coverage: [4]. Rangoon11 (talk) 20:52, 20 April 2011 (UTC)