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File:Orologio rosso or File:Orologio verde DOT SVG (red clock or green clock icon, from Wikimedia Commons)
This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who accepted the request.

Mathsci (block logactive blocksglobal blocksautoblockscontribsdeleted contribsabuse filter logcreation logchange block settingsunblock)

Request reason:

The blocking administrator has given only vague reasons for the block which include copyvio issues and borderline personal attacks. I would like my request to be reviewed by an uninvolved administrator. Copyvio issues concerning user translations on article talk pages were resolved over a week ago with the help of Dougweller, Moonriddengirl and Diannaa. When asked, like me, Dougweller was not certain about how to proceed in describing a foreign language source on an article talk page. Diannaa explained that it could be done either through a brief straight translation, as permitted by copyright; or by a translated paraphrase, as if for a wikipedia article. I have apologised to Timothyjosephwood several times for the comments I made during discussions of foreign language sources and translations from a foreign language. I regret if I caused him any distress and unequivocally retract any personal statements I might have made about him. I have no history of making copvios or personal attacks. This is the first time I have edited an article on a news-related event as it unfolded. At ANI I also voluntarily committed myself to ceasing editing 2016 Nice attack or its talk page indefinitely; the advantages of my knowledge of France and the French language at this point are outweighed by the disadvantages, including my emotional investment in the subject matter itself (a little too close to home). I am making this unblock request so that I can resume my pre-Bastille-Day parallel editing of articles on baroque music (Orgelbüchlein and multiple related articles on Latin and German hymnology) and mathematics (Uniformization theorem, Planar Riemann surface, Differential forms on a Riemann surface).

Accept reason:

Unblocked per the conditions outlined and agreed to below.[1] Bishonen | talk 16:24, 9 August 2016 (UTC).

Unblocking administrator: Please check for active autoblocks on this user after accepting the unblock request.
The blocking admin provided a response at ANI here. Note that the voluntary cessation of editing was just above, approximately a half hour prior. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:08, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Well, I'm an uninvolved admin. Hi, Mathsci. It seems the Nice attack was an issue that touched you deeply; you had a lot of knowledge about it, but also perhaps too much investment in it to discuss calmly. Well, you say so yourself above. To not edit the article going forward seems a good solution to that particular issue. But you have been in trouble before for the way you interact with other editors. Some of those were indeed cases where you were right about the underlying issues, as proven by your opponents since being indeffed. But having been on Wikipedia so long as you have, I'm sure you're painfully aware of how highly the system values civility. So what would you do differently if you were unblocked? Are you thinking of sticking to uncontroversial articles altogether? Obviously we would be very glad to still have your editing on baroque music and mathematics. Mind you, if I sound like I personally advise avoiding all subjects that can be argued about, I don't; I think it would be a loss to Wikipedia. But you know yourself a lot better than I do; what are your thoughts on editing controversial articles going forward? Do you think you'd be able to avoid getting in the same trouble? Bishonen | talk 08:40, 6 August 2016 (UTC).
    • User:Bishonen, thanks for the reply. I apologise in advance for giving a detailed and unfortunately lengthy reply.
ARBR&I: The only problems with articles were in 2010 on Race and intelligence and the associated article I created, "History of the race and intelligence controversy", on the suggestion of Steve Rubenstein (stable since its creation): those edits were made from April-July 2010. There have been no problems on other articles or their talk pages; and my meticulous editing was mentioned by arbitrators in WP:ARBR&I. In the ARBR&I case itself, after discussions with User:Newyorkbrad, I voluntarily withdrew from editing anything related to R&I and have stuck to that ever since. Sanctions were lifted in December 2010. They were reimposed after a wikipedia email from Courcelles for unknown reasons. There have been plenty of problems related to meatpuppetry and sockpuppetry following WP:ARBR&I. Having been given the green light by arbitrators, I have consistently helped arbitrators/checkusers identify sockpuppets, even while blocked. Mainly that involved possible Mikemikev socks: generally I can tell whether they are socks or not, from their talk page language and topic fixations.
Echigo mole: Since 2009 there was intensive hounding by User:Echigo mole and his 300 odd sockpuppets which lasted until May 2013, when he tired of his hounding and declared a partial list (100+) of undisclosed/unused sock accounts. His editing affected almost every article I wrote, because he trolled there. He also trolled on arbcom pages and a motion about restoring his edits was passed by arbcom in 2012. Echigo mole/A.K.Nole's intention was to create as many problems for me as possible: he posted on WikiProject Mathematics and anywhere else he could stir up trouble by trolling (Reginald of Durham was an example, when I was writing content related to St Cuthbert and early Christian saints in Britain; he stayed away from Godric of Finchale and Guthlac of Crowland).
Apart from the R&I case and Echigo mole-generated disruption, there has been no prior history of editing problems on articles or article talk pages.
Nice attack: In the case of 2016 Nice attack, French editors were active on not on That is completely understandable. A news article about confused events where sources are only corrected a week or two after the event is tricky to write. Those corrections and clarifications have only appeared when the people involved were interviewed or made announcements (witnesses, heroes who engaged with the driver, national police officers who "neutralised" him, the police officer in charge of CCTV footage, the French prosecutor). Mostly that has been in French sources, since these reports are not considered newsworthy outside France beyond brief comments. I was the main editor who detected those problems and took a lot of time finding sources that were reliable. I just looked at fr:Attentat du 14 juillet 2016 à Nice and noticed a huge divergence between the content written by French editors and the article here. No POV or BATTLEGROUND about that; just a statement about how some things can go wrong on in cases like this. I was the only person to notice the problems and nobody has disagreed. I have pinpointed how the problem arose from whether news sources were updated/corrected or not.
Sorry for this long reply, but you mentioned my editing history. The arbcom ban was solely due to an inappropriate captioned image on my user page. (I have been informed that any confusion about that is being discussed by arbitrators at the moment.) I have also been subject to off-wiki harassment; the arbitration committee was fully aware of that since it was all outlined briefly in my unban request in March 2016. My ban could have been appealed in April 2014. Personal circumstances, including ongoing health problems, intervened in the interim. Thanks again for commenting, Mathsci (talk) 10:01, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
Mathsci, you have given a history that would probably be useful in some circumstances, but not really in response to my post, which I suppose you realise was an implicit offer to unblock iff you gave me some undertakings. ("I'm an uninvolved admin" is the code.) You haven't addressed my questions nor my observations at all. You changed the subject, and at the same time gave a bit of an impression you'll never let that stuff go. :-( You may be right in every single instance, but that's not the point. Please address what I asked. Personal suggestion: please don't be in a hurry, take a walk or sleep on it or something first. Bishonen | talk 10:46, 6 August 2016 (UTC).

Q: I'm sure you're painfully aware of how highly the system values civility. So what would you do differently if you were unblocked?

A: I would be far more careful not to overreact. I would state problems with edits dispassionately and carefully avoid any personal comments about editors. I would be careful to show that my edits on talk pages are there to help other editors as much as to discuss improvements to the article. I would strenuously avoid giving the appearance of belittling other editors with different skills.

Q: Are you thinking of sticking to uncontroversial articles altogether?

A: Yes, of course. I have up until now avoided unfolding current events, as I have done in the past. They are not encyclopedic content (perhaps in 5 years times, when experts have written about them, they might be). I edited this one first of all because I could help with images and maps, given my knowledge of the region. This was not a controversial article, however, just an article that was hard to source (for the reasons I've explained above). Almost exclusively I have edited or created neutral and anodyne articles where no other editors are active. For a long time I watched (and still watch) Europe, Marseille and Aix-en-Provence. I don't foresee editing articles on current events again. The mismatch with the French article was unfortunate but not of my creation.

Q: But you know yourself a lot better than I do; what are your thoughts on editing controversial articles going forward? Do you think you'd be able to avoid getting in the same trouble?

A: This was not a controversial article, just one with language problems. The sources were also upsetting—listening to interviews with French people as they recounted their harrowing experiences; these people could have been my neighbours. As I say I don't edit articles on controversial topics. When there are content problems that require expertise (knowledge of mathematics, knowledge of organ playing, knowledge of French) I would be careful to speak dispassionately about the problems and strenuously avoid belittling other editors. I would step away from the computer rather than post a hasty reply. Here is an example of a mathematical discussion from 2008 where I had different expertise from another editor and where this was resolved through civil discussion.Talk:Restricted_representation#Clifford_theory I normally am careful to remain civil and not loose my cool. I will take even more care in future. User:Pincrete's comments about my overreaction here are quite correct. I have taken on board his comments as to what was wrong with my interactions on the talk page of the article: less is more; and there is no need to belittle other editors.

I hope this answers all your questions, particularly the ones on civility issues. Thanks again for clarifying things, Mathsci (talk) 12:02, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Here is an example of editors trying to write content using amateur cell phone videos as WP:RS. As explained above, perfectly good written sources exist which would avoid this WP:OR. That's the problem with the article: poor sourcing. Where's the "rolls eyes" icon? Mathsci (talk) 12:28, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
No, I guess one wouldn't call the subject of 2016 Nice attack controversial, but a controversy about sourcing nevertheless developed. Theoretically, I suppose that could happen wrt baroque music as well, but it's far more likely with unfolding current events, naturally. You say you normally don't edit those, so I conclude you edited the Nice article precisely because you had strong feelings about it. I think you can see where I'm going: if you're impelled to edit a current events article, it's likely that you do feel strongly about it. So I suggest you consider simply staying away from them altogether. I know you say you don't "foresee" editing them, but something might turn up that you think is urgent. I'm not setting a voluntary self-ban from current events as a condition for unblocking; I don't think that would be fair; but please consider the risks. People will be watching you, some of them from pure motives. But you clearly have enemies as well, so please don't give them a handle.
Anyway, considering what you say in your first answer above ("I would be far more careful not to overreact," etc), I'm now going to have a word with Fram. (Please stop talking about 2016 Nice attack, in any venue. Look at Begoon's post. That's the impression it makes when you do. Impressions are important!) Bishonen | talk 14:06, 6 August 2016 (UTC).
Point taken. Je me tais. Thank you again for your help and sorry that I did not answer your questions when you first asked them. I do appreciate your help. I initially edited this article to help with the images and that led me to look at the French article. I add images quite a lot; recently Richard III, Henry VI, Lady Margaret Beaufort, Eleanor Cobham, Duke Humfrey of Gloucester, Edmund Beaufort, 2nd Duke of Somerset, Christ's College, Cambridge, St John's College, Cambridge, Hobson's Brook, René of Anjou, Walter of Durham, Painted Chamber, A solis ortus cardine, Talbot Shrewsbury Book, Elizabeth of York, Margaret of Anjou, etc. Mathsci (talk) 15:24, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
Looking through my email archive, I found one from Iridescent sent on 6 July 2009 about postings of Grep on Wikipedia Review. It's easy to see now that Grep was A.K.Nole/Echigo mole (e.g. he drew attention to hoax articles on Letchworth and Spirella). Something I hadn't realised before, but obvious once noticed.Mathsci (talk) 11:00, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Conditions for unblock

Fram has now replied, saying that he still has concerns but also that if I feel your reassurances are reasonable enough to give you another chance, then I'm free to do so.[2] That, together with the discussion of my unblock proposal on ANI, is enough backing for me. I will unblock if you explicitly undertake to live up to your own statement higher up on this page about what you'd do if you were unblocked: "I would be far more careful not to overreact. I would state problems with edits dispassionately and carefully avoid any personal comments about editors. I would be careful to show that my edits on talk pages are there to help other editors as much as to discuss improvements to the article. I would strenuously avoid giving the appearance of belittling other editors with different skills." Also, please read the ANI unblocking discussion I have linked to and be aware that if there's a next block, it's highly likely to be a permanent community ban. If you agree to these conditions, please indicate it below. Bishonen | talk 15:23, 9 August 2016 (UTC).

Yes, I reiterate everything in my unblock request, in particular the section in green that you have just quoted and highlighted, which was the most significant portion. As I also wrote in the request, I will not edit the 2016 Nice attack article and its talk page. Thanks again for your help and guidance. Mathsci (talk) 16:12, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
Thank you. I'll unblock in a minute. Bishonen | talk 16:21, 9 August 2016 (UTC).
  • Glad that worked out Mathsci. If you ever need a friendly sanity check on editing, feel free to drop me a note. I may not appear to be around but am definitely lurking! --regentspark (comment) 23:19, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
    Perhaps. But I would certainly recommend against this. Though that remark is not particularly problematic for most editors, unfortunately, because you've had an arbcom judgement against you, you're on thinner ice then most and it may not be a bad idea to recognize that reality and exercise some restraint. I've seen too many otherwise great editors get caught up in this 'death spiral'. Probably bad for the wiki in the long run but that's what we have to live with. --regentspark (comment) 02:19, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
    Agreed. That sort of thing was previously dealt with at WP:WQA. It was an overreaction on my part, but an isolated incident. As for the thinner ice, there are some issues with one arbcom page which have been or are being discussed on arbcom-l. Mathsci (talk) 03:22, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Herzlich tut mich verlangen

Herzlich tut mich verlangen, - I have to interrupt for the day, translation and more to text and use in music missing. In case you can add, you are most welcome! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:35, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

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Could you help to any image of the music of Der 100. Psalm? I know there's a postcard of the composer and the beginning of the words with music in his handwriting, because it's in the Dr. J Butz publication. Some more music would be even better, like his Requiem. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:31, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

The music is out of copyright and a facsimile of the 1909 score of the Peter's edition is in this pdf file on IMSLP. You can extract a jpeg (or png) image of the page. There is a low resolution png image of the first page already on the IMSLP site here but it's too poor quality for wikipedia. I'm not sure about autograph scores. Mathsci (talk) 14:53, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
The original composition manuscript (skizzen) with Reger's name on the first page is on the digital document provider of the Bayerische Staatsbibliothek here. Mathsci (talk) 15:06, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
Thank you for finding them! I guess the last one is interesting, but very pale, - it could be linked. My experience with images from documents is zero, - would you do the conversion of the first for me, please? - See us pictured before singing ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:17, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
I have converted the first page of the pdf file to jpeg and mailed it to you. I am very busy creating the lilypond and audio files for the 3rd section of BWV 39/i. It is quite difficult, but in the process I discovered how to make permanent forms of audio files that do not rely on readers' software and how to simulate solo voices and choirs. That applies in particular to organ music, but needs a lot of work for each individual piece. Mathsci (talk) 17:39, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

Next wish: Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott, BWV 80. Something relevant to the work, not some stained-glass imagination of Luther inspiring Bach ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:52, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

Next wish: music for Mit Fried und Freud ich fahr dahin, BWV 125, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:01, 4 December 2016 (UTC)


Information icon There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Francis Schonken (talk) 17:32, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

Re: Audio files

Hello, no worries that article had been sorely missing for years! . I can't think of anything to add to it at the moment (I don't know much about the trio sonatas myself), but if I do, I'll add it to the new article. I agree re the audio file; it's rather nice for a MIDI and is reasonable for demonstrating the work. I don't hear the click in Winamp, but another way to remove it may be to use Audacity to find Zero crossings (the function is in the edit menu in Windows) and then save the remaining audio, which will be automatically selected for you. Graham87 09:52, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for that feedback. The tip is also very helpful. I have been using audacity but didn't know it had that extra function. I'll try it right away. Thanks again, Mathsci (talk) 10:25, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

Score images

Yo, noticed that your score images are often JPEG files. Please also or instead upload SVG versions; JPEG is very much the wrong file format for that kind of content. Thanks! :) —{{u|Goldenshimmer}}|✝️|ze/zer|😹|T/C|☮️|John15:12|🍂 18:05, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

I have been adding scores for years as png or jpeg because Mutopia presents their miniscores in png, eg here (reproduced in Great Eighteen Chorale Preludes). I am only adding extracts, so that is convenient. Available outputs from lilypond are ps and pdf (both automatic); and png, eps and svg (as options). I use the pdf file and linux software to create a png or jpeg image with the resolution that suits me. Can you give me an example of a complicated score on wikipedia in svg format? What purpose would it serve if it's only an extract? Mathsci (talk) 18:48, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
I'm afraid I don't understand what your problem is with using SVG. The benefit is that the files do not become blurry when zoomed in: JPEG files look ugly, for instance, when using a high-DPI monitor. If your problem is you don't know how to make SVG extracts from Mutopia PDFs, it's trivial: say you want page 4, system 2 of BWV651:
  1. $ wget
  2. $ pdf2svg ./bwv651-let.pdf ./BWV651-Mutopia-p4-s2.svg
  3. $ inkscape ./BWV651-Mutopia-p4-s2.svg
  4. Right click document -> Ungroup
  5. Drag box around page number and top system, press backspace
  6. Drag box around bottom system, press backspace
  7. File -> Document Properties -> Resize page to content...
  8. (Fill in your desired margin values, e.g. 50, 50, 50, 50)
  9. Click the "Resize page to drawing or selection" button
  10. Close the "Document Properties" window
  11. File -> Save
  12. File -> Quit
  13. Upload the resulting file "BWV651-Mutopia-p4-s2.svg" to Commons
  14. Result:

—{{u|Goldenshimmer}}|✝️|ze/zer|😹|T/C|☮️|John15:12|🍂 20:06, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

I can read the lilypond manual without your help if I wanted to produce svg output.[5] But I asked you a question. Where on wikipedia has anybody used an svg file for the miniscore extracts I'm using, They are high resolution because that's how I created them. They are extracts not scores of a whole piece. So what examples are you thinking of that are currently used on wikipedia? Mathsci (talk) 20:20, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Here is my high resolution jpeg file.

BWV39.1 first section melisma.jpeg

Although I would still like you to answer my question, what is the problem with the resolution of this image in its largest version on commons? Mathsci (talk) 20:26, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

I don't know of examples of score extracts as SVG, and I don't care to look for them, since your question about them is irrelevant to my point: JPEG is intended for photographic images, while SVG is intended for images consisting of solid-colour shapes. —{{u|Goldenshimmer}}|✝️|ze/zer|😹|T/C|☮️|John15:12|🍂 11:56, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
Sometimes these extracts are created with images from a photographed score which is not necessarily of high quality. Are you saying the images are problematic at 800px or is there some zoom feature you're talking about? Why not produce screenshots to show me what you mean? Mathsci (talk) 12:30, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
My point isn't about photographs. JPEG is perfect for photographs of scores. My point is about score images that are non-photographic in origin: they should be SVG. Please have a look over at Wikimedia Commons's page on file types if you have any questions about why SVG is better for this use case. Thanks. —{{u|Goldenshimmer}}|✝️|ze/zer|😹|T/C|☮️|John15:12|🍂 14:54, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── The commons pages don't help very much. All they tell me is that svg is used for maps and diagrams. Musical scores are not remotely related to things like that. If you think that the rendered files create problems, please show me how—with a screenshot—so I can see what you mean. In any case the extracts I produce are not raw pdf files. They are always cropped from a high rsolution image (using gimp). But if you show me the problems that arise by providing a screenshot, that would help. If somebody sees the score on a page, they have to click for more detail. That takes them to the file page on commons and they can choose their own resolution. Unless I see what the problem might be with jpeg, I won't even think of using svg. If you really want to persuade me, you'll have to provide a screenshot. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 15:15, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, Mathsci. But your "high-res" score, which is actually 1,308 × 330 pixels large, looks horrible lo-res and blurry on my screen that's in 3,840 x 2,160 resolution. This brings about the value of SVGs: they are much more future-proof than "high-res" JPEGS. Ahyangyi (talk) 05:08, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Without a screenshot, I have no idea what you are talking about. So screenshots please. Also I wll not do anything at all until somebody gives another example of a musical score of similar complexity that uses svg. Here is another file produced from a nineteenth century score (i.e.not using lilypond). It could not be produced in svg.

Bwv39.1-3 fugue.jpeg

So screenshots please. I have no idea what kind of computers you are using. For that matter, I don't know whether either of you can read music. Mathsci (talk) 05:49, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

I cannot see any difference with the rendering of the previous score in svg (produced directly with pdf2svg without using inkscape).
BWV39.1b score example.svg
I am using a very inexpensive kind of computer. So some kind of screenshot please so that I can have some idea what the problem is. Now that you have an svg file to compare with a jpeg file, it's easier to produce the screenshot. Mathsci (talk) 06:38, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Equally well Goldenshimmer 's"trivial method" is not a very good method in inkscape as it does not allow the choice of a rectangle except by indirect trial and error. Inkscape is obviously not intended for editing music scores. However a reasonable method of cropping to a rectangle is to choose "no paint" at the bottom; choose the rectangle tool and adjust the rectangle to cover the desired area. Then mark that rectangular area using the selection tool. The image can be cropped to the area selected by going, as in Goldenshimmer's method, to document properties and using the button "resize page to drawing or selection". A cumbersome process. Here is the result. I see no advantage so far. Please could we have some screen shots?

svg image


jpeg image

BWV39.1 section one chorus with orchestra.jpeg

Looking at this, I cannot really see any difference between the two (initially I thought I could). Neither is 100% perfect at this resolution. What does it look like on another computer? Mathsci (talk) 11:27, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

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1 hour after a check up, I collapsed again and am back in hospital. Not really serious, but everything is on hold. Mathsci (talk) 19:10, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

I hope you get well soon. Keep up the spirits.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 19:18, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
Thanks, Magnus. I am out of hospital now, although not everything has been resolved. Mathsci (talk) 20:43, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
More good wishes for health and spirits, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:08, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Thank you!

For your work on Giulio Cesare! Smeat75 (talk) 20:27, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. It's temporarily on pause, but I will resume adding content from Dean & Knapp when I have finished the current mathematics content. Mathsci (talk) 20:33, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

Re: Improper page moves and misleading templates

Hello, I generally can't stand conflict (and don't handle it very well) and for some reason I could sense that the page for BWV 525–530 would be the centre of it, so I took it off my watchlist, just intending to check it out from time to time (what you've done on the page so far is great!). Re the page move, I'm not sure what I think of the capitalisation but a page mover is very much allowed to assess consensus in that case. The redirect templates they added were fine; the CD/DVD text is a reference to the Wikipedia 1.0 project. Graham87 00:42, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

Removing someone else's survey submission in an ongoing WP:RM?

In this edit you removed someone else's !vote in the open WP:RM at Talk:Sonatas and partitas for solo violin (Bach)#Requested move 18 October 2016. I'm not sure it was an oversight or that perhaps the other editor was disqualified from contributing to such survey for one reason or another (there was no edit summary to clarify one way or another)? Could you explain, or reinsert the other editor's !vote if it was a simple oversight. Tx. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:40, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

I didn't see it. Presumably an edit conflict. Easy enough to put back. Please do it yourself without chnaging my edits and read what I have written elsewhere about my health problems, which you are exacerbating. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 17:13, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
One of my last interactions with Bishonen was about how much fun we had editing Wikipedia this month twelve years ago. The best way to retain a health benefit from Wikipedia involvement is to keep it fun and relaxing imho, and that's what works for me up to the present day.
Here's where Wikipedia involvement can become a net health negative: the WP:OWN policy is clear that content can't be owned. Now there are some who think that ownership is the way to go nonetheless, as long as one can keep it under the WP:OWN policy radar. Then a lot of convoluted mechanisms enter the arena to make that ownership stick without being blunt about it. Keeping such mechanisms operational and at the same time covert is exhausting (again, the Wikipedia editing environment wasn't designed to work that way): in short, such proceedings can exacerbate health problems.
So here's my health wish for you: keep your involvement with Wikipedia breezy – find that relaxing nerve of Wikipedia editing where co-editors are collaborators rather than competitors. The scenarios when you're unsuccessful to tap that health-beneficial nerve are but too predictable: your health is more important than what resides on a web server some place far away. Ultimately your co-editors may need to step in to prevent you from endangering your own health. --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:41, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
You have both pinged me, but I feel I'm overly threaded through the running feud between you, and would rather you asked someone else to adjudicate if you must escalate this, or for instance everyone else (=at ANI). And, Mathsci, please do take it easy and rest up until you're quite well, I'm concerned about you. Letting Wikipedia get you stressed out is a mug's game. Bishonen | talk 10:51, 19 October 2016 (UTC).

Removing someone else's comment in a discussion

You have now twice removed my comment "for clarity: nobody doubts the reliability of the source, this is about whether the content of the source is rendered correctly in the Wikipedia article" (and some other content) from WP:RSN (diff 1 diff 2), and accused me also (in the edit summaries of those diffs) twice of moving your comments – I did not move anyone else's comments, and surely not yours. --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:50, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Sorry. I did not read your comments carefully enough. I had written something similar elsewhere. You can add back that new content where you wish but please do not start a new section. The reliability of the 2004 Urtext Barenreiter edition is not under discussion; andWP:RSN is not the place for to make nit-picking comments about my edits which are still in process. A fourth person has now questioned your sourcing. Mathsci (talk) 12:45, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Deleting content and references at Keyboard concertos by Johann Sebastian Bach

With this edit you deleted...

  • [1][2][3]
  • , with the addition of a second violino di ripieno part,[4]


  1. ^ BDW 1226
  2. ^ Kilian 1986, p. 105ff.; Kilian 1989 p. 43ff.
  3. ^ Rust 1869, p. XXI (Preface) and pp. 221–272 (score)
  4. ^ Schulenberg 2006, pp. 145–146

...from Keyboard concertos by Johann Sebastian Bach. With any other editor I would have reverted such deletions as vandalism. Is there any reason why your deletions should not be regarded as such? --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:59, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

You copied over the tags and have been copying content from one page to another recently. I would normally call that "obnosious trolling". Perhaps in your case it's different. You have shown no sign of using the references properly, so I am rewriting the original content (not due to yopu) properly. I have obvious skills that you don't have. I go to libraries and find books and articles. I read them and check them. I also play most of the pieces in the articles thart I edit. My ability to create musical score and audio files is an added skill, which is spin-off of my training as a musician. I play the transverse flute (nobody would call it a traverso in English), the recorder (alto, sopranino), piano, harpsichord and organ; I have performed some of these works in public. So I am in a very good position to improve the original content. You didn't make use any proper use of the new sources, that I found. You turned your nose up at the main ones, in you own inimitable way. The above message is unduly aggressive. Besides I provide the references to Schulenberg (three pages). There's no need to be a hypocrite as well as a bully. Mathsci (talk) 08:23, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
None of your defense disqualifies the removals listed above as obvious vandalism. --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:59, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
Obviously not vandalism, since I am obviously improving the content at the moment and have a reputation as an expert editor with experience in producing high quality content on Bach's keyboard music. Why did you copy over the tags from another article? Tags are added to individual articles. That was disruptive editing. I think your incipits in German were poor for this article: I can produce some myself as time permits. It could take a day or two. Your responses seem quite aggressive. Calling my edits "vandalism" was quite an obnoxious thing to do. Mathsci (talk) 09:13, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
I only described the deletions listed above as vandalism. Yo::u're obviously not wanting to restore them, and can not give a reasonable explanation as to why this content and these references were removed in the first ::@::place. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:32, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
Content and references as listed above restored ([6]) – none of this impedes a further development of the article, improve sourcing etc. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:48, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
You made those edits when two "in use" tags were up and where new content is obviously being created. I do not intend to use Kilian at the moment. Can you please stop editing so disruptively? Just because you use sources poorly (as orthers have said on WP:RSN), please don't bully other editors into using your poor standards of sourcing. Judging from your edits to BWV 1044, it seems unlikely you have read Kilian's commentary. I don't know whether any of it is useful at this stage: I will look in the Cambridge UL tomorrow where it is only available in the reference section (2 copies, the second donated by Christopher Cartwright). That is how we edit wikipedia. Mathsci (talk) 10:11, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
Putting up a {{in use}} is a lame excuse for covering up vandalistic deletions. --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:53, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I don't think it is of much interest to go into great lengths about the history of the manuscripts: that is not done for any of the other works, which in some cases (e.g. the reworking of Brandenburg Concerto No. 4) have as complicated a history; and I believe that this is of no interest to the reader beyond a brief summary. I will prepare my own excerpts for BWV 1044 in lilypond as a short excerpt can be created quite quickly (at most 2 or 3 days). I will also look for the Wollny article tomorrow. Looking at the sources before rewriting the content seems like a good idea. I have played all of these pieces myself: BWV 894 on the harpsichord; and BWV 527/2 on the organ. I have also incidentally performed the harpsichord version of Brandenburg 4, 2nd and 3rd movements, and in fact created lilypond files for these. As it happens, for almost all the articles I am currently editing, I have played the music at some time or other (most recently selections from BWV 1014–1019 with a 1st violin from the Boston Symphony Orchestra). At the moment I am preparing the articulation and ornamentation for the audio file for BWV 529/1 which mostly involves inserting micro-rests. Mathsci (talk) 11:17, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

Unrelated to the topic at hand: none of the reported deletions involved the "history of the manuscripts", music performances, the Wollny source, micro-rests or whatever else you're writing about in the above paragraph. --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:53, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
Please read what I've written. I do not believe you have looked at Kilian (in a major university library it is only a reference volume). I am going to look at it on Monday to see whether it has any relevance. I cannot imagine at the moment how it could be useful for creating any useful content since the Introduction to Bach studies does not recommend it. I have not seen a paraphrase by you of any content created from that source. Before my trip to the UL tomorrow, why don't you give me some examples of sentences on BWV 1044 that you've read in Kilian that might be relevant. Just copy the German verbatim. Take as long as you want. There is no rush. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 12:18, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

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YohanN7 (talk) 10:20, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Editing through "in use" template

Please discontinue editing through the {{in use}} template at List of solo keyboard concertos by Johann Sebastian Bach ([7], [8]), as I asked you at the talk page ([9]). Your suggestions are welcome at Talk:List of solo keyboard concertos by Johann Sebastian Bach. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:18, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

You are reproducing a list and have been told not to on the talk page, The fact that you ignore other editors does not justify you forcing your list back on wikipedia with an "in use" tag. It is another disruptive ploy by you. Please use the talk ogae instead of creating disruptuve content that pushes your own point of view. Mathsci (talk) 09:59, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
Are you going to persist editing thus disruptively through the {{in use}} at List of solo keyboard concertos by Johann Sebastian Bach? --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:09, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
On the article talk page, you said your intention was to write an article about the concerto transcriptions. That does not seem to be happening. Instead you have cherry-picked one sentence which you wish to place in the lede to justify your own personal feeling that the Italian concerto belongs to the same musical genre as the transcriptions. That is not born out by the literature. Obviously you think that your view is correct and you want to make a big issue of it in a wikipedia article, to the point that you scream it out in the lede. But evidently that is an example of WP:UNDUE. It is disruptive tendentious editing.
I've already told you several time that I reject an umbrella list article containing the concerto transcriptions and the two much later works, entirely composed by Bach. If you want to write an article on the transcriptions, that is easy enough. But why try to force you own ideas on readers? It is misleading, confusing and unhelpful. I think you are misrepresenting secondary sources at the moment. The Italian Concerto and the Overture in French style are mature works which belong together and had the same purpose, quite different from the concerto transcriptions. The transcriptions were written as part of Bach's reception of the concertos of his contemporaries (particularly Vivaldi) and probably at the request of his employer. The transcriptions are related to all his subsequent concertos regardless of instrument. So why pick two at random with one that only marginally fits your description (the two harpsichord concerto)? I think you're being very disruptive at the moment and you have misled me on the talk page about your intentions. Mathsci (talk) 10:52, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
Regardless, could you please answer the question whether you'll continue to edit through an "in use" template with sweeping changes at the List page? --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:01, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── WP:IDHT has been your response for a while. You want to restore the list article with your own WP:OR ideas in it and I've told you cannot do that. I have written rather clear reasons which seem supported by all the literature I've seen. Putting the "in use" tag up in your case is just a way of locking the article in a state which has no agreement on the talk page. It is tendentious and disruptive editing. I've said that if you want to write an article on the concerto transcriptions, you can go ahead and do it. But you somehow want to make some point about other compositions that comes from your own imaginings, i.e. WP:OR.

Up until now you have said one thing on the talk page (that you are going to write an article on concerto transcriptions); but then you proceed to do something completely different on the article page. In so doing, you are misrepresenting yourself. Your true intentions are borne out by your proposed new lede, one sentence long, which cherry-picks a sentence out of context to justify one of your own WP:OR ideas. You want to edit disruptively and ignore any points I want to make. But everything I have said is supported by the literature; your point of view is not.

If I put up the "in use" tag, it means I am working on difficult content. At the moment I am preparing content on BWV 1055/2, a movement which has been analysed over 3 pages by Dominik Sackmann in a book which fortunately is available in my university library. That is an appropriate use of the "in use" tag. I am adding detailed content in a way which I hope will help the reader. But creating content about musical structure requires reading the sources (often technical), understanding them (requires musical training) and then translating that into non-technical terms that hopefully are of assistance to the reader.

If you want to create a new article on "concerto transcriptions", I don't see the problem. But you obviously want an article where you can very firmly make the point that the concerto transcriptions and the Italian concerto are generally regarded as belonging to the same musical genre. Mathsci (talk) 12:20, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Yo Ho Ho

2016 Nice attack

Hi, Mathsci. I see you have recently edited 2016 Nice attack and its talkpage, something you explicitly undertook not to do in August 2016.[10] I have no criticism of your edits as such, but have you forgotten, or changed your mind, about completely staying away from that article? I didn't specifically put that into my unblock conditions, but, you know, it was sur le tapis. You'd be wise to take the article off your watchlist, IMO. And a happy new year to you! Bishonen | talk 17:52, 2 January 2017 (UTC).

remettre sur le tapis ? Je vous souhaite une bonne année. Mathsci (talk) 19:25, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
Dear Mathsci, I also read "Je me tais" as an agreement with Bishonen to not edit that article anymore, and the subsequent "I will not edit the 2016 Nice attack article and its talk page" was pretty clear. But I see that you've been on a Bach trip since then, so I assume this is all water under the bridge. Water on or under the tapis is probably a sign you need to take the dog for a walk. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 23:15, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
I am now worried that if I lift up my floor covering I will find a menagerie swimming around in a pool. Meanwhile I will cross that bridge when I come to it and let sleeping dogs lie. It is true that strange things have been found near here, e.g. an anglo-saxon bed grave. Mathsci (talk) 09:39, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
The short update on Nice was exceptional, but uncontroversial and designed to be helpful to readers. I haven't followed editing on the article. I should add that, since 2010 I have made no edits related to articles on race and intelligence, apart from pointing out sockpuppetry by email to a checkuser (almost always the same banned user). As far as Bach edits are concerned, for several months I have been followed around wikipedia by Francis Schonken. Others have noticed this.[11] Mathsci (talk) 18:25, 3 January 2017 (UTC)


Please do not remove dispute resolution noticeboard filings from the dispute resolution noticeboard as a way of declining to participate in them. The proper way to decline to participate in moderated discussion is to reply to the filing by stating that one does not want to participate, since participation is voluntary. I have commented at the dispute resolution noticeboard talk page as to next steps, which may include a Request for Comments. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:04, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Herr Jesu Christ, dich zu uns wend

The hymn has been started, but the author is not really that sure ;) - more to come, later. Good enough to link to, I'd say. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:28, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Many thanks! You already have one image and I can add another. Mathsci (talk) 17:20, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Circular re-directs

Just noticed... Your recent edits have resulted in Weimar concerto transcription (Bach) re-directing to Concerto transcriptions (Bach) and vice-versa. —Patrug (talk) 06:40, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

Hello! There is a DR/N request you may have interest in.


This message is being sent to let you know of a discussion at the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding a content dispute discussion you may have participated in. Content disputes can hold up article development and make editing difficult for editors. You are not required to participate, but you are both invited and encouraged to help this dispute come to a resolution. Please join us to help form a consensus. Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by JustBerry (talkcontribs) 02:23, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

Arbitration motion regarding Race and intelligence

The Arbitration Committee has resolved by motion that:

Mathsci (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) was unbanned in April 2016 under the condition that he refrain from making any edit about, and from editing any page relating to the race and intelligence topic area, broadly construed. This restriction is now rescinded. The interaction bans to which Mathsci is a party remain in force.

For the Arbitration Committee, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 21:17, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Arbitration motion regarding Race and intelligence

DYK for Herr Jesu Christ, dich zu uns wend

Updated DYK query.svg On 27 January 2017, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Herr Jesu Christ, dich zu uns wend, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Bach composed five organ settings of the hymn "Herr Jesu Christ, dich zu uns wend", which was translated by Catherine Winkworth for communion as "Lord Jesus Christ, be present now!"? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Herr Jesu Christ, dich zu uns wend. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Herr Jesu Christ, dich zu uns wend), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Harrias talk 12:48, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Reference errors on 15 February

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