Talk:Joseon

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"List of countries in 1708"

What purpose does this edit serve? I stopped just short of reverting it, and decided to bring it up on the talk page. —Notyourbroom (talk) 19:34, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

I found it pretty silly, too, and to be honest I'm tempted to put that list article up for AfD. Have you notified the editor of this discussion? rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 20:12, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

At your suggestion, I've just notified the editor with a link to this thread. —Notyourbroom (talk) 20:57, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Name of kingdom

South Korea is 大韓民國 but we don't translate that "Great Republic of Korea", so likewise, 大朝鮮國 is just "Kingdom of Joseon". (Although, literally, that should be "Country of Joseon" and only 朝鮮王朝 is Kingdom...) Jpatokal (talk) 02:10, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I have no particular preference over one way or the other. However, your induction is unfortunately "original research" without source nor does not match the literal meaning of the hanja. Let me compare one example. If you see the top of the infobox in the intro of Ming Dynasty, the "autonym is stated "Great Ming" "大明" even though the article title is "Ming Dynasty". Please tell me why the Chinese characters of "大明" is not just "Ming". The article is a Featured article, so I think this standard is more stable than your own WP:OR. I'm not sure whether you're a native English speaker, but I've never seen that Joseon is styled as "Country of Joseon" so are even other states or dynasties. I easily found many reliable source for the native name, 大朝鮮國, so I'm gonna insert the source and revert your edit. Thanks.--Caspian blue 02:29, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

There are several issues here. First, the Ming dynasty article is very clear that there are two names, 明朝 and 大明(国), with different literal translations: the first is "Ming Dynasty", the second is "Great Ming (Empire)". This is also true for Joseon, since 大朝鮮國 uses just 國 ("nation, country, nation-state" -- not kingdom, not dynasty) while 朝鮮王朝 is an explicit and literal translation of "Joseon Dynasty".

The second issue, though, is your claim that 大朝鮮國 is "correct" and 朝鮮國 is not. Both the Chinese and the Japanese Wikipedias assert that the legal name (正式的国号/正式の国号) is simply 朝鮮國, without the 大 in front, with only the Korean WP using the 大朝鮮國 form. At the very least, both forms should be mentioned. Jpatokal (talk) 05:04, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Your logic have many problems on the own. The first raised contest could be very simply resolved once we add "Kingdom of Great Joseon" to the intro with the hanja. I provided an "analysis" that Joseon Dynasty is a common name referring to the state and "大朝鮮國" was an officially used name. The conventional long name refers to "the official name" called by Koreans, not by foreigners. We won't have any problem if we just add "朝鮮國" ("Joseon Kingdom") to the intro or create a naming section that include the name.

I think you know very little about Korean history or Korean culture since ""Joseon Kingdom" (Chosun or Choson Kingdom) or "Kingdom of Joseon" is also commonly used in academic sources or news. "Kingdom" is translated to "王國", a form of state rule by king. Therefore, I don't see why you insist on removing the "great". Your comparison with "大韓民國" with the modern concept is WP:POINTy and unfit to the case. In fact, "Great Republic of Korea" is indeed sometimes used, and 大韓民國 itself is the abbreviation of 大韓民主共和國 (Great Democratic Republic of Korea). So please don't rely on Wikipedia. On the other hand, South Korean government "chooses" the "Republic of Korea" for diplomatic usages, but our article is at South Korea which is translated into hanja as 南韓 but this is not in the infobox.

I never said that 朝鮮國 is incorrect. I restored the previous edit because tThe required parameters are for its "native name" and "conventional long name. , not "conventional name". As I've emphasized, you must provide reliable sources for your claim; that the state is commonly called "Country of Joseon". Not to mention, Wikitionary also is not a reliable source. We are talking about Korean state, not Chinese nor Japanese one.--Caspian blue 06:16, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Life expectancy

This sentence is continually getting edited out:

"By the early 1900s, at the close of the Joseon Dynasty, the average life expectancy for Korean males was 24 and for females 26 years."

Scary-looking figures, but what are your grounds for objecting to this? Do you have contradictory evidence? Jpatokal (talk) 12:07, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Jpatokal, you're misquoting WP:AGF over WP:RS and did not assume good faith on my edit and other(s). You missed to follow the update. I'm not sure about another editor's revert, but he/she seemed to think the doubt over the source was not resolved yet. Yeah, so please WP:AGF. Regardless, I don't think the sentence should be in the first paragraph of the thread, since Joseon Dynasty had lasted about 500 years, so the end of the era should be also mentioned in the end of the thread whose topic is not about its life expectancy.--Caspian blue 12:29, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I do not see any reason to suspect the validity of the reference provided by Gavinhudson. If you think it is incorrect, the correct response is to tag the reference with {{dubious}} and raise the issue here, not revert it. (You did not do this.) And if you think the information is correct but in the wrong place, then you should suggest a better place for it, not revert it. (You did not do this.) Jpatokal (talk) 14:10, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I have no reason to follow your perspective regarding how to deal with WP:V and WP:RS since the reference with the commercial link not showing the book at all raised my concern enough at that time. I checked the link while you didn't. That is your part of not assuming good faith on an experienced editor like me over the new user. I did not want to give you a wrong impression that I engaged in edit warring as you did to the article by relocating the paragraph because you labeled that the statistics from "one sources" as "scary looking figures" here. Not to mention, the original editor did not restore his edit here, so I had no reason to relocate the non-existent new info until you reverted. Anyway, I will revise the sentence later with "According to Andrei Lankov" (the book author) and a comparison with the life expectancy of a neigbbor like Japan (average 20.3 years by 1900) and an example from the West such as U.S (average 35 years by 1900) as well as additional references. Figures of statistics can be manipulated or incorrect depending on who conducted and when it was held. For the reason only one source can not secure the assertion.--Caspian blue 14:37, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

This is an article about Korea, why is a comparison with Japan relevant? Or do you also want to note that the average life expectancy in the USA in 1900 was 49.2? Jpatokal (talk) 15:24, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Jpatokal, your harassment of me at my and the new user's pages for whatever reason is noted, but please do not resort to such personal attack for the content dispute (?). The statistics is restored, and I have no objection to the inclusion since only minor issues need to be clarified such as where it should be located and others. While none forgets the article being Korean, any relevant context can be mentioned as a comparison for saccuracy. This source from Gachon University Gill Hospital/ Chosun Ilbo says, according to the December issue of an American woman's monthly magazine published in 1900, the average expectancy of Americans was 35 years. Another news from Biology Recearch Information Center of Korea written by an 40 year-experienced medical professor in Canada and U.S. says that the Korean expectancy during the Joseon period is a speculated number after a comparison with Japan's expectancy. What I said above is based on the two sources. So as I said, statistics can be incorrect or different from source.--Caspian blue 15:40, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Here we go again...

I'm particularly annoyed that the present edit war is reverting all changes wholesale. One by one:

1) Whether or not Joseon was a "sovereign" state. The conclusion -- I can't exactly call it a concensus -- from last time was that Joseon could really be only called sovereign at times, so dubbing the entire 500-year dynasty as unqualifiedly 'sovereign' seems inappropriate. Also, the sole reference given, a bare URL to OhMyNews, is broken and missing from the Wayback Machine.

2) Whether Joseon was a tributary state of the Qing. There isn't really any dispute on this: as a historical fact, this is very well referenced and even prime reverter Historiographer admits it. So, uhh, why is it being removed?

3) My rewrite of the near-unreadably messy "Decline" section into chronological order and native English. As far as I'm aware, my edits neither introduced any new claims (other than a few names and dates taken directly from Donghak Peasant Revolution) nor changed any meanings, but if I did change something unintentionally, I'm all ears. Jpatokal (talk) 22:40, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

The issue here—in my mind—is a combination of the following:

1. East Asian history is infamously contentious, with China, Japan, and Korea in particular disagreeing about both what the facts are and what the most objective interpretation of those facts is. Depending on which sources a scholar uses, he or she can reach enormously different conclusions.
2. The political and social systems in place in East Asia during the period of the Joseon Dynasty were very different from those in Europe. We are on the English wikipedia, so we're using a Western language. Using Western terms to describe Korean political and social history is thus problematic on a number of topics. It's tempting to call the yangban "the aristocracy" or perhaps "the upper-class", for example, but coming from a Eurocentric understanding of history, it's easy to misunderstand how those terms are being used and how they relate to the realities of Joseon social and political life. Similarly, the question of what "sovereign" means—or what "tributary" means—are hard to answer in a way that doesn't carry in too much baggage from the language being used. Readers unfamiliar with Confucian ideals and philosophy are at a particular disadvantage.

So I don't believe there are any easy solutions. From point 1, I know that the "facts" will never be in agreement because there simply is no coherent body of work to cite; and in addition, anyone sympathetic to one school of East Asian history will find the other schools to be counterfactual and POV-pushing, leading to eternal disputes. And from point 2, even if a "correct" interpretation could be synthesized, there's no particularly good way to express it in the English language, leading to the same problems of accused inaccuracy and POV-pushing.

All true, but I'm not sure how you relate this to the issue at hand? There are obviously different points of view over whether or not Joseon was "sovereign state", although few historians would even use the term in a binary true-or-false sense. That's why I think it makes sense to describe it as the one thing everybody can agree on, namely a "state", which already (accurately) implies a considerable level of sovereignty, and then the article can (and does) describe the waxing and waning of its fortunes. Jpatokal (talk) 11:10, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

My personal view is that it is much, much too easy to downplay the Joseon dynasty because rival schools of history exist to downplay it (for example, the infamous "Stagnation Theory" used to justify Japan's colonization of Korea) and because English terms like "tributary" have implications which don't hold true in the former political systems of East Asia. —Bill Price (nyb) 01:00, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

• @Bill Price. As for my opinion on the matter, please see my posts at here. I'd like to know your comment on the article one. If you are not happy about the word tributary, WP is not the place to talk about it. The term has been used for years by historians. Oda Mari (talk) 08:46, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
• Again, I'm not sure what you're driving at -- are you contesting the use of the word "tributary state" to translate 属国 shuguo? This seems to be the standard label and is used elsewhere on Wikipedia, eg. at List of tributaries of Imperial China, which notes (with a reference) that Joseon did, indeed, send 435 (!) tributes to the Qing. The tributary state article also describes quite well what the term means in the Chinese context. Jpatokal (talk) 11:10, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
• Joseon is not considered to a "Sovereign state" in the English speaking world regardless whether it was a tributary state of China. According to the Google Book search, It is clear that "Joseon" is not referred to "Sovereign state". Please compare with "South Korea".

• "Joseon" "sovereign state" -Wikipedia -"Books, LLC": 3 results (all are spurious)
• "South Korea" "sovereign state" -Wikipedia -"Books, LLC": 2,310 results

―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 11:19, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

User:KoreanSentry repeatedly added "Sovereign state" without participating this ongoing discussion. I request the user to provide a reliable English source except for the Korean author that support Joseon was a "sovereign state". Unless a reliable source is provided, any addition of "Sovereign state" in the lead will be reverted and subject to WP:ANI. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 12:26, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Those in the Japan camp are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too focused on the technicalities. You'd be hard pressed to find any book that introduces "Joseon was a tributary of China" or "Joseon was a sovereign country/nation/state." No, it'd more like "Joseon was a country in Korea" the end. So that whole google book page hit is irrelevant. And Bill Price is right, the English terms are a sort of cop out. I mean surely you wouldn't call the British Empire a tributary of China prior to the Opium Wars. Despite this denomination, Joseon was and acted as a independent sovereign nation. This excerpt explains more about the relationship and how such terms may be confusing.[1] Kuebie (talk) 00:57, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Korea is one of the oldest and yet, perhaps, the least known nation—once a nation—in the world. She had preserved her distinct national identity during the four thousand years of her history until Japan established the protectorate over her at the point of the sword in 1905, and subsequently annexed her to the Japanese Empire in 1910.

The so-called vassalage of Korea to China was a mis-applied designation given by those who had only a superficial knowledge of the historical relation between Korea and China, China recognized the complete independence of Korea in 1895. Yet, Korea had made her treaties with the leading Western Powers before this date, as an independent nation. In the Kang-hua treaty of February 26, 1876, between Korea and Japan, the first article reads: "Chosen being an independent state enjoys the same sovereign rights as does Japan." In 1871 the Chinese Foreign Office wrote to the United States Minister in Peking, Mr. Frederick F. Low, in response to Mr. Low's inquiry concerning the relation between Korea and China: "Korea is regarded as a country subordinate to China, yet she is wholly independent in everything that relates to her government, her religion, her prohibitions, and her laws; in none of these things has China hitherto interfered." Again, in 1882, the King of Korea wrote to the President of the United States saying: "Now as the Governments of the United States and Korea are about to enter into treaty relations, the intercourse between the two nations shall be carried on in every respect on terms of equality and courtesy, and the King of Korea clearly assents that all of the Articles of the Treaty shall be acknowledged and carried into effect according to the laws of independent states."

The true relation between Korea and China has been that of "big nation" and "small nation," as the Korean used to say. Westerners were told that though Korea was "a tributary state of China, it was entirely independent as far as her government, religion, and intercourse with foreign states were concerned, a condition of things hardly compatible with our ideas of either absolute dependence or complete independence," as has been stated by one Western observer. Indeed, W. W. RockiiiLi,, the great American scholar of Eastern history and politics admirably summarizes the historical relationship between Korea and China as follows :

"Korean traditions point to Ki-tzu, or Viscount of Ki, a noble of China during the reign of Chou-hsin of the Whang Dynasty (B. C. 1154-1122), as the founder of the present civilization of Korea in B. C. 1122, and through him Korea claims relationship to China, to which country Koreans say they stand in the same relation of subjection as a younger brother does to an elder one and head of the family. This peculiar form of subservience, based as it is on Confucian theories, which have shaped all Chinese and Korean society and made the people of those countries what they are, must never be lost sight of in studying Korea's relations with and to China." - H. S. Nichols

You found a good book, however I asked "to provide a reliable English source except for the Korean author that support Joseon was a "sovereign state"". The book you cited was edited by a Korean independent activist "Henry Chung" who was a member of Korean National Association and published in 1919 during the Japanese rule. He worked with Syngman Rhee for independence of Korea.[2] The book is an extreme of Korean POV. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 02:41, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Non-Korean source: Rockhill 1905

Stress has been laid on the expression, used alike by Chinese and Koreans in official documents, of speaking of Korea as a shu kuo, a term usually translated 'vassal kingdom, fief,' but these terms are misleading, for the character shu carries with it the idea of relationship, which, as stated, is the keynote to the whole question. Even the investiture by the Emperor of China of the King of Korea, which was for many centuries the most important act of suzerainty exercised by China over Korea, should, to a certain extent, be interpreted in the light of the relationship in which the two countries have ever stood to each other. We find in both Korean and Chinese works, and hear among the Korean people, frequent allusion to the relationship of the two countries. The Emperors of the Ming Dynasty were "fathers to Korea"; the Manchu Emperors have been "elder brothers "; and the present Emperor of China in an edict in 1882 spoke of the reigning family of Korea as his "near kindred."

As to the custom of Korean kings submitting to the Emperor of China for his approval the names of the heirs to their throne, of their consorts, of informing him of deaths in the Royal Family, these again are strictly ceremonial relations bearing with them no idea of subordination, other than that of respect and deference on the part of a younger member of a family to its recognized head.

Twice, at least, during the Ming Dynasty of China (a.d. 1368-1644) the people of Korea chose their sovereign without consulting China, and the latter power only entered a mild protest. So far as I can learn, there is no case recorded in which the Emperor of China has disapproved of the choice the King of Korea has made of his successor or his consort. In 1699, the King had his son by a concubine recognized as his heir, the Queen having no children. In 1722 and in 1724 he asked for the recognition of his younger brother as his heir. In 1763 the grandson of the then reigning king was recognized as heir to the throne, the Peking Board of Rites quoting the Book of Rites (Li Ki, T'ao ktiny, i) to show that a grandson is the natural heir to the throne, if the son dies during the father's lifetime. In 1691 the King of Korea asked the Emperor's approval of his again taking as his consort a person whom he had previously put away in favour of a concubine, and of reducing the latter to her former rank. All these requests, and every other one recorded, were granted.

What did the investiture by China of the kings of Siam, Burmah, Annam, Korea, etc., amount to? To nothing more than the recognition of a weak sovereign by the most powerful state in Asia.

—Rockhill, William Woodville (1905). China's intercourse with Korea from the XVth century to 1895. London: Luzac & co.

—Bill Price (nyb) 03:42, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

You also found a good book. However the tone of this book is clearly a counterargument to a common recognition of Joseon's status. If you cite this book, the description should be something like "Joseon was almost a sovereign state according to a book published in 1905." per WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV. As I explained above, "Joseon was a sovereign states" is not widely accepted. Anyway I just dropped in this discussion, I will not comment on this topic anymore. Lastly just for reference, among the G20 countries, the countries describe themselves as "sovereign state" in the first sentence are United Kingdom and South Korea. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 09:05, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Not at all. Sovereignty doesn't preclude tributary relationships. The fact that the Korean court was able to negotiate these relationships with China instead of being subsumed into whichever Chinese dynasty for thousands of years like the dozens of other Chinese kingdoms proves sovereignty in and of itself.Melonbarmonster2 (talk) 21:50, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

What are the article one in the Treaty of Shimonoseki and the first sentence of ko:개화당? I'd like to know why should it be emphasized "a sovereign state" in the lead when other country articles do not use the word and the dynasty was not 100% sovereign as Phoenix7777 pointed our above. Please clarify. Oda Mari (talk) 06:47, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Again the concept of sovereignty doesn't preclude tributary relationships. Matter of fact, the ability to enter into such foreign policy agreements with foreign nations proves 'sovereignty'. The fact that the Japanese posters have been exclusively complaining about this proves necessity of clarification in text on this point in my opinion with proper reference according to WP:CITE which has been provided.Melonbarmonster2 (talk) 02:09, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Protected

There appears to be edit warring from multiple editors here. I've protected the article for 3 days or until a consensus is reached. rʨanaɢ (talk) 22:38, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

To be fair there's only one editor here who is engaging in these unilateral edits and reverting multiple editor who are expressing dissent. I propose we refrain from unilateral edits and make discussion in talk page mandatory.Melonbarmonster2 (talk) 21:53, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

And which editor would that be? Jpatokal (talk) 22:30, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

(undent) All of relationship with the Imperial China was regared as a tributary. Japan also send the tributary missions to Imperial China. Why did you only emphasized this facts to Korea?--Historiographer (talk) 00:15, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

This article is about the Joseon Dynasty in Korea. You are welcome to go edit articles about Japan. Jpatokal (talk) 10:34, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

So laughable.--Historiographer (talk) 01:23, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

No, seriously. This is about the Korean kingdom of Joseon, not Japan. Jpatokal (talk) 02:46, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Jpatokal save the one-liners for bulletin boards and keep things courteous so we can have a constructive discussion please.Melonbarmonster2 (talk) 03:24, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm trying to have a constructive discussion about the Joseon Dynasty article here, but there's exactly one editor who keeps bringing Japan into this, and it's not me. Maybe you can tell me what the relevance of Japan is here? Jpatokal (talk) 10:21, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Japan was mentioned in passing and your reaction is more suspect. Assume good faith and stop the one-liners and sarcasm. If you have an opinion state it plainly and directly.Melonbarmonster2 (talk) 01:31, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

In addition, sovereign state have capacity to enter into relations with other sovereign states. Joseon Dynasty established diplomatic relations with other sovereign states such as Japan, United States, and the other western states without Chinese interference. Whenever King of Joseon Korea changed, they just notified these facts to China, not appointed their throne by China. It is showed that Korea's status with Imperial China was just formal, not practical.--Historiographer (talk) 00:26, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Request for comment

Template:Rfcid Should the word "sovereign" be included in the lead or not? Oda Mari (talk) 17:26, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

• It doesn't matter all that much but it's referenced good faith edit by a editor of good standing. There's no reason to be so fanatic in trying to impart anti-Korean spin and delete referenced information.Melonbarmonster2 (talk) 20:05, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
• I'm not inspired with confidence by the reference provided for the "sovereign" part. Melonbarmonster2's personal attack upon the RfC nominator is unnecessary and irrelevant and should be struck out. Quigley (talk) 20:20, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
  • I'm not inspired by most references but for purposes of discussion we should limit our concerns to weather the naver article meets criteria set out by WP:CITE and WP:VERIFY. It does so with flying colors. Aside from the substantive discussion, I would like to also submit that Quigley's personal attack on me should be struck down for reasons of lack of necessity and relevance. Hopefully we can set aside the petty gamesmanship and WP:GF so we can have a productive discussion.Melonbarmonster2 (talk) 05:04, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

I think we're going about this the wrong way. The issue is not whether we can find one source (or even a few) that describe Joseon as "sovereign", because there's obviously a contingent of Koreans, including many of the esteemed members of this edit war, who are firmly of the opinion that it is -- and that's fine as one point of view. The issue is that, by describing Joseon as "sovereign", we completely ignore the other point of view (and, dare I say, the majority view), which is that Joseon was (at times) more or less under the control of the Qing and thus, at the very least, not externally sovereign. For example, the UK defines a sovereign state as one "which exercises de facto administrative control over a country and is not subordinate to any other government"; I think we would all agree that Joseon fulfills the first half of that, but Joseon was ritually subordinate to Qing for lengthy periods and, at times, practically subordinate as well.

Thus, we should remove the misleading blanket label of "sovereign" from the lead, and instead devote a paragraph or so elsewhere to covering both these views. Jpatokal (talk) 11:51, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Melonbarmonster2, please answer my questions. What is the article one in the Treaty of Shimonoseki? Why do you think there was such an article in the treaty? What is the first sentence of ko:개화당? Why do you think there was such people? What did they want? Oda Mari (talk) 05:44, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Protected again (2 weeks)

The edit warring going on at this page (again) is unacceptable. There are numerous editors involved so I think protection is more appropriate than blocking for the time being. While the page is protected, please take this time to discuss the specifics of the particular edits in question, rather than just attacking one another and arguing over general issues like what happened the last time I warned editors here about edit warring. If you guys work out an acceptable consensus and I can trust that you won't edit war again, I'll be willing to lift the page protection before 2 weeks pass

I hate to be a grump, but please consider this message an edit warring warning for all the editors involved in this dispute--Baptisan4, Jpatokal, Historiographer, Melonbarmonster2, Oda Mari. Any edit warring on this issue after the page protection ends will be blockable. rʨanaɢ (talk) 18:18, 22 May 2011 (UTC)