Talk:September 11 attacks

An event mentioned in this article is a September 11 selected anniversary.

---

---

The archives of the discussion of the September 11, 2001 attacks article may be found here:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14

15

---

medcabal

Hello all --

I was called in as part of medcabal -- see here. Everyone please read the "tips" following my signature.

The argument here seems very limited: what to call the section discussing a grab bag of very minority viewpoints that suggest some group or other hid knowledge about the attacks, and that there is some wildly different "truth" being concealed.

I would suggest the following version instead:

Theories involving a U.S. government conspiracy

Since the attacks, a small number of people have suggested that the presentation of the events above is seriously flawed. These include those that suggest that individuals in the government of the United States knew of the impending attacks and failed to act on that knowledge. Those questioning the mainstream account of 9/11 have speculated that the collapse of the World Trade Center was caused by explosives, that a commercial airliner did not really crash into the Pentagon, and that United Airlines Flight 93 was shot down. The vast majority view these suggestions as conspiracy theories in the perjorative sense. See 9/11 conspiracy theories for greater detail on these views.

It would be incorrect to describe this section as "controversy", because the conspiracy theorists are not taken seriously by anyone in the mainstream. i.e., there is no controversy from the POV of the vast majority.

Does this help us resolve the problem?

Sdedeo (tips) 18:36, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

First off all, thank you for collaboration, but I have to say: Sorry, But No, that doesn't helps anything.On my mediation request I clearly asked for a non-American and non-anti-American mediator. Please respect that in the name of neutrality. From your user page I supose that you live/ are from Manhatan. If I'm right, please bring here a non-American mediator.

Thanks, Normal nick 19:02, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Bullshit. A priori excluding Americans in the name of "neutrality" is not helpful. Being American has no bearing on one's views on 9-11 (just look at the nationality of those on the various conspiracy lists being AfD'd). Sdedeo made a good faith attempt to mediate this and your rejection shows that you are not interested in getting consensus, just getting your way by crying for an admin. Moreover, his user page indicates he's also familiar with Cambridge. How do you know he isnt' a foreigner studying/working in the US? --Mmx1 19:13, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I have to say that this demand for a non-American mediation is anti-American by it's very nature. You're assuming that an American cannot hope to be unbiased in this matter. If that is your assumption, then I can see no good to come from mediation with you.--MONGO 19:14, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

From WP:NPOV:

• "Yes, it is, especially when dealing with articles that require an international perspective. The presence of articles written from a United States or British perspective is simply a reflection of the fact that there are many U.S. and British citizens working on the project, which in turn is a reflection of the fact that so many of them are online. This is an ongoing problem that should be corrected by active collaboration from people from other countries. But rather than introducing their own cultural bias, they should seek to improve articles by removing any examples of cultural bias that they encounter, or making readers aware of them."Normal nick 19:56, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

WP:NPOV#Undue_weight and WP:NPOV#Pseudoscience are relevant here. If you want American bias here, we should just cut out the "conspiracy theories" section completely. Instead, we are including this section and link to the main 9/11 conspiracy theories article, to allow a broader range of viewpoints. This section uses summary style, in accordance to the Manual of Style, and the title of the section is so named, as that's what the subarticle is called and is about. -Kmf164 (talk | contribs) 20:09, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Mainstream news media worldwide do not embrace the conspiracy theory arguments. This is not a cultural issue, it an issue of facts. I repeat the definitions of these terms for your better understanding. Conspiracy=three or more people conspire to perform an act. Theory=unproven allegation or assumption that has yet to be proven and accepted overall. Controversy=two or more identified sources or pieces of information that have essentially equal weight and are in conflict with one another. Lastly, no one has proven that any government coverup, any controlled demolition or any other evidence has a basis in fact that would refute the findings of tens of thousands of investigators, researchers and the media.--MONGO 20:13, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

A very basic principle of wikipedia is that we must assume good faith. Nick, you are out of line to guess at where I am coming from and to assume that I am not acting in good faith in trying to help. That said, because medcabal is purely informal, since you reject my offer of assistance, there's not much I can do; I'll put a note as to your demands on the cabal page -- it's possible that someone else won't view them as problematically as I do.

If you cannot act in accordance with wikipedia principles, someone will eventually ask for a formal mediation.

Sdedeo (tips) 20:17, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I know you are acting in good faith. But it's bad that I required for moderation and that moderation itself is biased by the place where you live. And note: This ain't the kind of bias you may have conscience you are acting acording to. I simply didn't find it right that ignored that request of mine. But, if my suposition about the place where you live/'are from' is wrong, I've nothing left to do than accept you as moderator. And then my position will change from the one i just expressed. Normal nick 22:39, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Sdedeo, i would like to thank you for your time and suggestion, and i gladly accept it. I will implement your suggestion. --Striver 20:53, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I think that's not the correct way to proceed, per Kmf164 above. They are not conspiracy theories in the perjorative sense, but in the technical sense. Sdedeo's proposed heading could easly be read as saying conspiracy theory is no more than a theory about a conspiracy, which is incorrect. Tom Harrison ^Talk 21:13, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, I change my opinion about the mediation, and I'll gladly accept our moderator proposal. I just don't understand this last thing you are talking about Harrison, Why is it incorrect? Isn't that article talking about theories about conspiracies? What information is lost in this transition? Normal nick 23:51, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Nick, just to be clear: your demand for a moderator with a particular viewpoint or racial/national background is completely anathema to the way wikipedia works. You may find a different project elsewhere on the web more amenable to your goals.

You may be unclear somewhat on how things function here, which includes a deep belief that people working together and following very broad guidelines leads to an excellent encyclopedia; if you are willing to drop this request, let me know on my talk page. Yours, Sdedeo (tips) 22:42, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Hey.. Calmdown, I just wanted a moderator that would be culturaly neutral, not a moderator with a particular point of view. Having here an American Moderator is almost so unfare than if it was a muslim. I don't want a particular viewpoint from you, but at least, you should be culturaly neutral, in order to somehow challange Wikipedia's problem i've quoted above from the WP:NPOV article. That's why i made that request some lines above in this conversation. I know that this reaction of mine sounds very unpolite and controversial no matter how politingly i try to write it. But under the light of what I'm talking about it is quite reasonable. Normal nick 23:01, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

That's incredibly offensive to both Americans and muslims. --Mmx1 23:03, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

What? To say that the place where you are born makes you biased about certain issues?

Why?Normal nick 23:14, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

It is offensive to claim that ALL Muslims and Americans have such strong biases that they can't make reasonable decisions about 911. Especial over something so blatantly obvious as a conspiracy theory which has been debunked by experts.--146.244.137.154 23:58, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Then, sorry if i ofended you, even though, I should note that I, as Portuguese, probably have a strong bias when talking about the Carnation Revolution or the Portuguese Colonial War. What i said had no meant to offend anyone. Normal nick 00:05, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Hypothetical - Moved from my talk page

Moved this here as it relates to the content of this article and I don't want to have to repeat myself more than necessary.

If I a car crashes into a bank, is it an "attack on the United States"?

If there were unidentified people on board not known to have been at the wheel, was it the unidentified people who crashed the car?

If the bank turns to dust after numerous witnesses describe the events as having seemed like the bank was blown up by explosives, and no bank has ever turned to dust because of a car crash before, would you describe that 'turning to dust' as a "collapse" ?

If four cars disappear, and then later four cars crash, would YOU assume it was the same four cars... and if the people who disappeared in the first 4 cars were never seen again would you state as a fact that they died in the 4 crashes, even though there were no bodies found, nor other evidence?

If the unidentified people on board not known to have been at the wheel were said to have been Mr Brown, Mr. Smith, Mr. Jones and Mr. Green by people who had no evidence, AND later Mr Brown, Mr. Smith, Mr. Jones and Mr. Green turned up in other places AND there is no proof that any of them worked for Mr. Fizzle, would it be correct to say that they were the ones who crashed the cars, and were doing so under Mr. Fizzle's orders? Would it not be just as meaningful to say they either worked for Mr. Fizzle or a rival bank? Especially if there was evidence that Mr Brown, Mr. Smith, Mr. Jones and Mr. Green were impersonated by Mr. X, Mr. Y, Mr. Z, and an unknown person, all of whom were suspected of working for the rival bank?

This is regarding your unsigned comment on my user page and your rash characterization of my good edit as vandalism.

Please sign all comments, per wikipedia policy.. Please refrain from calling me a vandal, per wikipedia policy. I will refrain from calling you a misguided fool, per wikipedia policy.

If you have any good evidence that there was any factual error in my evidence, I would be very happy to see it. Are you interested in seeing evidence contrary to your point of view? Or is it perhaps your mission to delete any assertion that it was not a foreign terrorist attack that occured on 9/11/2001 but actually a well-coordinated group of covert operations intended to justify the United States going to war against several uninvolved nations for the purpose of establishing economic and military bases of operation for the economic gain of multinational NGO's?

I welcome further discussion in the former case. Pedant 18:21, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Factual errors? How about some proof that it was a "controlled demolition"? Not speculation about dust puffs or steel temperatures or trying to pass off water inspectors as steel engineers. No, the academic and scientific consensus is that two planes crashing into the towers brought them down, and unless you present credible evidence to the contrary, putting in your POV against the consenus of both the academic community and the editors of wiki is vandalism. That's where I stand; Don't post here again about the conspiracy theory - go talk abt it on the article's talk page instead; I don't have the patience to debate it personally with every Smith, Jones, and Green that gets it into their head that they know better than civil engineers.

--Mmx1 18:42, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I agree with you (Mmx1) that it amounts to vandalism in the general sense of the word, but under WP policy Pedant's edit would be considered a NPOV violation and a Mistake. Esquizombi 18:54, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, it's not even POV. The temperatures required to create pools tons of molten steel are not opinions. Definitely aircraft struck the buildings. There has been no evidence that it was the 'hijacked aircraft' that struck the buildings. No forensic work was done on the crime scene. No bodies or parts of plane passengers were found in Pennsylvania or at the Pentagon. It is not possible for buildings to fall at free-fall speed unless they are not supported. I'm not trying to push a POV at all, just alternative explanations that are equally provable as what was in the article. Note my edit was "this OR this" certainly something happened, but it is not certain it happened as the article stated it was before my edits. I'm not a vandal. One day that article will include the more likely truth, not just what was rammed down our throats by collusionist media puppets. Imagine how the articles on JFK's assassination would have looked had they been contemporaneous with the assassination. They called people conspiracy nuts who claimed there was more than one assassin in the team, but the official report said that Connally and Kennedy's wounds were from one single undamaged bullet. That assertion no longer has any credibility whatsoever. Whether you believe it or not, it is absolutely impossible, physically, structurally etc, for the towers to have collapsed to dust, at free-fall speeds, and leave a pool of molten steel weeks-months (depending on different reports) later. Why do you think all that rubble was scooped up and carted off, if not to cover up the crime? Also it is inherently POV to state that is was an attack "on the United States", The Pentagon is a US target, the WTC was a commercial target, it would be just as accurate or actually more so to say "two attacks on property of the WTO and one attack on property of the US" and attacks on the respective airlines. Of course it was a conspiracy, and of course the discussion about it is theory, until more facts are known it will remain theory. The whole article is of necessity a conspiracy theory, the term conspiracy theory is essentially meaningless, unless it is used as you use it, as a way to merely disparge one possible explanation of events most of us can have no more than theoretical knowlege of, because the evidence has been, in a literal sense, covered up. But I'm not a vandal, and I made my edit very carefully. I would no more vandalise Wikipedia or its sister projects than I would rape my mother. It is very hurtful of you to call my actions vandalism. If you value wikipedia as much as I do, you would never call a fellow editor a vandal without clear-cut reasons. One day you will look back on this and regret your behavior, but today, you are behaving as a misguided bully. Pedant 19:21, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

The debate over the proper wording has been discussed ad-nauseum on that article's talk page. To edit the intro to such a prominent and controversial topic without even commenting on the talk page (I won't assume anything about whether or not you read it), does constitute vandalism. It's not just POV of your content, which would be excusable if there was some debate on the talk page. It's not like you're a newb that doesn't know about the talk page and consensus. You have been here long enough to know better. Anon putting in POV is NPOV violation. Established user defying consensus and DAILY discussion on the talk page - vandalism.

As for the "attack on the US" hair-splitting, attacks on prominent institutions is typically considered an attack on the nation, particularly as they were on different types of installations. It clearly wasn't just military or financial concerns they were targeting, so the common thread is bigger than just financial or military. Unless you believe that the attacks weren't coordinated or had one backer? --Mmx1 19:38, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes I definitely do believe that the attacks were coordinated. I also think that it's inconceivable that the attacks were not also coordinated with the 'training exercises' that put the US Air Force in a position of not being able to respond to the attacks. Another part of the coordination must have been the numerous violations of standing orders and procedures in place for response to just such an emergency as aircraft hijackings. The lack of investigation and the hasty cleanup of the crime scene seems to be obviously of a part of the coordination of the attack. Unless you propose that Al-Quaeda has moles in place at numerous key positions in the Air Force, at NORAD, in the Joint Chiefs of Staff, in the Secret Service, at the NTSB etc, then it seems an untenable position to state unequivocally both that the attacks were by agents of Al-Quaeda, and that they were attacks ON the USA, since the above key positions are WITHIN the United States. If I set my house on fire because the asbestos in it would be too costly to remove, shortly after increasing the insurance coverage, would you say that I was attacked? NO. If in the process of investigating the collapse of my house it was noted that during the fire, the support structure had been intentionally removed, would you ignore that? One day you will look back on this exchange of comments, and realize that you were willingly closing your eyes to what should have been glaringly obvious.

I was not 'putting in POV' as you put it, I was removing it. Where is the credible investigation that shows that the aircraft which were ostensibly hijacked were the aircraft that hit the WTC, and the Pentagon? Where is the documentation of what hit the Pentagon, being as how it is one of the most well-surveilled military installations in the world? Why is there no picture of a commercial airliner approaching the Pentagon. I watched the second plane/tower collision live on television, and I saw no Airline markings. Hundreds of cameras caught the impact, yet not one of them shows the slightest trace of commercial airline markings. It is just assumption that the missing 4 craft were the same as the ones that crashed. Assumption is not neutral point of view and is not encyclopedic. Pedant 22:50, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Credible investigation? Oh, I dunno, the ATC records, the forensic evidence, the fact that the hijacked planes dont' exist anymore and the passengers are dead? "Violations of standing orders and procedures"? Like letting the planes land so we could negotiate for hostages? That was the standing procedure. Indeed, three of the Four planes landed exactly as the hijackers intended. Thank you for opening your mouth and removing any doubt. I no longer need to assume AGF nor take your viewpoint seriously. --Mmx1 22:56, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Cite the ATC records. Cite forensic evidence. What is your source for 'the fact' that the planes don't exist? Show some evidence that the passengers are dead, there were no bodies in Pennsylvania, you have any evidence that there were? There was no standing order to let the planes land and negotiate. Violations of standing orders like: assume in such and such a case that the plane is hijacked. In the case of hijack scramble planes. In the case of credible threat shoot down the planes. Those were the standing orders and the ordained procedure. Yes, you do need to assume good faith. I'm a good editor, and as you yourself have noted I'm not some newb. My record speaks for itself. I'm dead serious, and I am actually convinced by all that I have had presented to me that the events are being misportrayed both by our article and by the mainstream corporate media. If necessary I will dig up and cite the standing orders that say scramble planes, shoot the aircraft down... the orders were simply ignored and there is no wiggle room in those orders. And yet nobody was fired or court-martialed for their clear dereliction of duty. I'm not the only one who holds to these views, there are quite a few families who have yet to receive any remains of their allegedly dead loved ones. If you want ,you can continue to throw around phrases like "the fact that the hijacked planes dont' exist anymore and the passengers are dead?" but facts can be substantiated, and if they are not, then we have an obligation not to use the word fact when referring to unsubstantiated claims. Your veiled insults are uncivil, and I request that you return to civility. Pedant 00:33, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I call a spade a spade. You're telling me Todd Beamer, Barbara Olson, et al just dissapeared? Were murdered and buried in an unmarked plot? Or in hiding somewhere? If you think the standing orders were to shoot down hijacked planes, then you're misinformed or delusional. Please, do dig up the orders if you can. --Mmx1 00:44, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is constrained by a set of policies and guidelines that help us in our goal of writing an encyclopedia. These include using reliable sources and no original research. This article needs to stick to these policies and guidelines. It's not up to us to use Wikipedia to prove that the "mainstream media" is misportraying anything. -Kmf164 (talk | contribs) 00:42, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

A talk page like this is to be used for presenting new material for the article or critiquing the material already in the article. Text like that above -- presenting a argument without verifiable, reliable sources -- belongs in a blog or discussion board. patsw 03:53, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

suggested link

I'm shocked at how many people seem to be ignoring all of the true evidence regarding the events of September 11th. It is a dishonor to all of those who died to ramble on about conspiracy theories which have no validity. As such, this link should be added. Conspiracy theories debunked —This unsigned comment was added by 146.244.137.154 (talk • contribs) .

I think we link to that from 9/11 conspiracy theories. The conspiracy theories as well as the reaction to them should go there. Tom Harrison ^Talk 23:18, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

medcabal redux

Hello all --

Just to recap. I was called in as part of medcabal -- see here. Normal nick previously objected to me serving as mediator because I was unwilling to identify my nationality; after some discussion, however, Nick's now OK with me serving as mediator; see User_talk:Sdedeo.

Let me just repost again, with a clean slate.

The argument here seems very limited: what to call the section discussing a grab bag of very minority viewpoints that suggest some group or other hid knowledge about the attacks, and that there is some wildly different "truth" being concealed.

I would suggest the following version instead:

Theories involving a U.S. government conspiracy

Since the attacks, a small number of people have suggested that the presentation of the events above is seriously flawed. These include those that suggest that individuals in the government of the United States knew of the impending attacks and failed to act on that knowledge. Those questioning the mainstream account of 9/11 have speculated that the collapse of the World Trade Center was caused by explosives, that a commercial airliner did not really crash into the Pentagon, and that United Airlines Flight 93 was shot down. The vast majority view these suggestions as conspiracy theories in the perjorative sense. See 9/11 conspiracy theories for greater detail on these views.

It would be incorrect to describe this section as "controversy", because the conspiracy theorists are not taken seriously by anyone in the mainstream. i.e., there is no controversy from the POV of the vast majority.

Does this help us resolve the problem? Can people help me better understand what the problem is?

Sdedeo (tips) 23:40, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

more importantly, they are not taken seriously by the experts who actually analyzed the events first hand.

I'm happy with that title. It solves the initial problem I talked about. Harrison, up there you said you don't agree with the change, but i couln't understand why you are against. Can you please elaborate on that? Normal nick 23:58, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Some of the 9/11 conspiracy theories article discuss theories involving the Saudi Royal Family, and those involving Israel. So, the title doesn't quite encompass what the subarticle is about. -Kmf164 (talk | contribs) 00:03, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

But isn't that a problem related with that article in itself? The matter here is: Why should(n't) we change the title to Sdedeo's proposal? Normal nick 00:10, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Edit conflict - The article title 9/11 conspiracy theories is broad enough to encompass what that article is about. Here, we use summary style to give a brief overview of the topic and link to the subarticle. The title of the section should be consistent with the subarticle. While much of the subarticle discusses "U.S. government conspiracy", the title is nonetheless too narrow and not encompassing. -Kmf164 (talk | contribs) 00:16, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi Kmf164 -- a good point. Perhaps the title should be "Theories involving U.S. and allied government conspiracies"? I would be fine with either. Sdedeo (tips) 00:13, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. This would be more acceptable to me. -Kmf164 (talk | contribs) 00:16, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

The other issue relates to the word "pejorative" (also note spelling). I don't quite agree with that. "Conspiracy" is also a legal/technical term - Conspiracy (crime) and Conspiracy (civil). The term is not necessarily pejorative. -Kmf164 (talk | contribs) 00:25, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

"Conspiracy" is not the issue, "Conspiracy theory" is the problem, the phrase has a connotation of "nut case weirdo assertions with no credibility", see our article Conspiracy theory, which states that it has a pejorative connotation. What would work is "alternate theories of the events", or some similar wording without the negative connotation. In the absence of proof to the contrary, many of the "alternate theories of the events" deserve serious treatment. There are political reasons for the mainstream media to omit serious discussion of "alternate theories of the events", reasons that have nothing to do with the validity of the theories. The absolute truth is we don't know what happened, so all we have are theories. Some of the theories are just more accepted. The theories all fit the phrase 'conspiracy theory', but certain theories are being treated as fact, and others are treated as nutty assertions. Remember that 'conspiracy theory' came in vogue following the JFK assassination, and was used to represent theories contrary to the Warren Commission report, which claimed that all the wounds from JFK and Connally, AND the bullet hole in the windshield, and the 'shrapnel wound', ALL came from a single bullet, found on a stretcher, in pristine undamaged unbloody condition. We all know now that the truth differed from the mainstream accepted 'facts' but at the time, anything but the 'single bullet theory' was dubbed a 'conspiracy theory', a term I believe was intentionally introduced to the public conscioussness to discredit anyone looking for the real truth. I propose that we all take a step back and really attempt to edit this article with a neutral point of view. Eventually we will know the truth, and I would prefer that if it is found that the 'facts' we are accepting are found to be untrue, that our original article will still stand as a credible scholarly dissertation, and not a joke.Pedant 00:54, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the spelling correction! "Conspiracy theory" has a definite meaning, and I think it important to include the phrase "pejorative" so as to indicate that the majority of people take a "dim" view of these notions. Pedant, please note that the article does not endorse either view, only that it describes (I believe accurately) how these theories are viewed by others.

So let me just check -- are people OK with the current version? We may have resolved this issue and can move on to more fruitful things. Kmf164 (and others) if you want do cut and paste my suggestion above and make any minor edits you think necessary.

Sdedeo (tips) 01:10, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I do not support that proposal. These are not conspiracy theories in the perjorative sense, but in the technical sense. The heading you propose could easly be read as saying that a conspiracy theory is no more than a theory about a conspiracy, which is incorrect. A conspiracy theory is a particualr type of narrative with recognizable features. Tom Harrison ^Talk 01:45, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Tom, I understand your point. This brief section is like a pyramid. The heading describes what is going to be discussed: theories about US/allied conspiracies. The paragraph then explains that these theories are regarded by the majority as conspiracy theories with the features you discuss. Does the structure of the article make more sense now? Since both you and Kmf don't like the word "pejorative" for reasons I now see, I'm fine with removing it. Sdedeo (tips) 01:59, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Just for clarity, here is the now current version following input from Kmf, nick, Tom. Any other suggestions for alterations?

Theories involving U.S. and allied government conspiracies

Since the attacks, a small number of people have suggested that the presentation of the events above is seriously flawed. These include those that suggest that individuals in the government of the United States knew of the impending attacks and failed to act on that knowledge. Those questioning the mainstream account of 9/11 have also speculated that the collapse of the World Trade Center was caused by explosives, that a commercial airliner did not really crash into the Pentagon, and that United Airlines Flight 93 was shot down. The vast majority view these suggestions as conspiracy theories. See 9/11 conspiracy theories for greater detail on these views.

Sdedeo (tips) 02:01, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I think that is a step in the right direction. How about this:

Speculation about U.S. and allied government complicity

{{main|9/11 conspiracy theories}}

Since the attacks, a small number of people have suggested that the presentation of the events above is seriously flawed. These include those who suggest that individuals in the government of the United States knew of the impending attacks and failed to act on that knowledge. Those questioning the mainstream account of 9/11 have speculated that the collapse of the World Trade Center was caused by explosives, that a commercial airliner did not really crash into the Pentagon, and that United Airlines Flight 93 was shot down. The vast majority view these suggestions as conspiracy theories.

Tom Harrison ^Talk 02:08, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Quoting Kmf:

"WP:NPOV#Undue_weight and WP:NPOV#Pseudoscience are relevant here. If you want American bias here, we should just cut out the "conspiracy theories" section completely. Instead, we are including this section and link to the main 9/11 conspiracy theories article, to allow a broader range of viewpoints. This section uses summary style."

• I feel that a link to some "controversial page" should be included. Normal nick 02:22, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Great, that looks good to me. I made a minor edit to the title to take into account Kmf's note that some of the theories suggest the Saudis, Israelis, etc., but I am happy with this. Let's wait for Kmf and Nick to weigh in, but we may have a winner. Sdedeo (tips) 02:11, 5 April 2006 (UTC) harrison|Talk]] 01:45, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Mongo and others: please limit your comments in this section to this particular paragraph and small scale debates about the phrasing. Mongo, in the interests of keeping everything running without confusion, I have moved your comment to a second section. Thanks, Sdedeo (tips) 02:15, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

The next time you move my comment like that will be the last time you do it. I didn't solicit your assistance in this matter and I absolutely do not agree with appeasing those that wish to believe the impossible by altering the current wording or title of this section. We do not give undue weight to nonsense. Wikipedia is doomed if we do so.--MONGO 02:20, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect, what MONGO mentions is relevant to this section, particularly the renaming of the section. Lets not get so tied up in language that we forget the facts.--Mmx1 02:27, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Mongo, please remember to be civil and not to threaten other contributors. I'm trying to keep the debate focused so we can move on to other things. From your remark here I get the sense that you are not OK with the current title. To me it seems fine: it does not give undue weight to anything, but rather explains how "Speculation about U.S. and allied government complicity" is viewed. I understand that you view these theories with great distain and anger, but our job here is to be very neutral and dispassionate about what people think.

Nick, I am not sure what you mean in your comment: the current title of the main page is "9/11 Conspiracy Theories"; I don't want to get into a debate on that -- if you want to suggest a page move, you will have to have a discussion with the people who have worked on that page. We're trying to stay focused on this little paragraph. Sdedeo (tips) 02:27, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

It was uncivil for you to move my comment elsewhere. My comment was not a threat for I view you moving my comment as incivil and as rude, so you won't be doing it again. You are correct...I do not agree with any changes from the current edition...do not tell me that I am not being neutral when I insist that unproven unscientific nonsense and innuendo not be in this article. It doesn't matter what people think...all that matters is we state the facts...which would be: "lots of folks believe the government was behind the attacks...but they have zero proof to back up this belief...this can be compared to UFO's and the Loch Ness monster...some people just want to believe in the impossible, some hate the U.S., some are simply ignorant of the truth, and some are just POV pushing trolls." When we reword the passage that way, I'll be most happy. Therefore, even in it's current version, I feel I already have compromised.--MONGO 02:37, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I think I understand, and it's one of the things I was afraid of; that this is another attempt to get rid of conspiracy theory in article titles, now using this page as the venue. I tried to approach this in good faith and offer a compromise, and now I see that it can be used as a lever to try to move 9/11 conspiracy theories to, what? 9/11 theories involving a U.S. government conspiracy? Is that where we are headed? At this point I'm not willing to support any section renaming. I'll check back in the morning. Tom Harrison ^Talk 02:38, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Upon further thought (irregardless of MONGO's comments), I'm thinking that the title for the section, while accurately summarizing the subarticle, is perhaps a bit wordy. I think this may better fit in the first sentence in the paragraph, and the title of the section should just reflect what the subarticle is named. How about the following:

9/11 conspiracy theories

Main article: 9/11 conspiracy theories

Since the attacks, a small number of people have raised doubts and theories about U.S. and allied government complicity in the events. These include those who suggest that individuals in the government of the United States knew of the impending attacks and failed to act on that knowledge. Those questioning the mainstream account of 9/11 have speculated that the collapse of the World Trade Center was caused by explosives, that a commercial airliner did not really crash into the Pentagon, and that United Airlines Flight 93 was shot down. The vast majority view these suggestions as conspiracy theories.

-Kmf164 (talk | contribs) 02:40, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Mongo, I apologize if you felt I was behaving uncivilly -- that was not my intent. Wikipedia contains a great deal of information on things that are "unproven unscientific nonsense and innuendo" -- that is one of the reasons it is valuable. It attempts to portray these views in an NPOV and dispassionate fashion. Do you feel the current paragraph endorses either side? Can you tell us which particular sentence does so? I'm going to say right now that the final paragraph will look different from the current paragraph; that is just the nature of a WP dispute.

Kmf, you know that others will object to the heading "9/11 conspiracy theories", which was the origin of my coming here. Can we instead use the more general title 'Speculation about U.S. and allied government complicity"? Both you and Tom have previously endorsed this version, and for reasons I've explained above (the "pyramid") I think it is better.

Sdedeo (tips) 02:42, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Looks better. For the record, I am opposed to any change of the section title but open to a rewording of the content. --Mmx1 02:44, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Guys, Tom, Kmf and I have previously come up with an alternative title that others who you previously disputed with are OK with. If you now want to go back to the original title, we will be back where we started. Kmf, Mmx and Mongo, I suggest you talk together and come up with something you would be happy with. Post the version here, edit it amongst yourselves. Meanwhile, I will check back in tomorrow (afternoon CST) and see if we can build a compromise from there. Sdedeo (tips) 02:47, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I was more supportive of a section title that included both the terms "theories" and "conspiracies". Also, take a look at the article's TOC, where all the section titles are fairly short and concise. Such a long title doesn't quite fit, while the phrase fits well in the first sentence. -Kmf164 (talk | contribs) 02:53, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Kmf, I see what you are saying but nearly always in these disputes a compact and elegant prose style must take a backseat to acheiving a successful and worthwhile compromise. (This is probably why the phrase "encyclopedic prose" does not inspire joy in the common reader.)

Also: in the interests of my sanity. Just to reiterate: we are only discussing this particular paragraph. We are not discussing the title of the main article 9/11 conspiracy theories. Please make your decisions in this mediation based on what you feel would be compromise without violation of WP:NPOV. Thanks, and good luck -- Sdedeo (tips) 02:55, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

The language of US/allied shouldn't be in the title as that's only a part (a large part, but not all) of the conspiracy theories presented. Financial cabals are a pretty popular blame group, too. --Mmx1 02:57, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Are financial groups named in the main 9/11 conspiracy article? Can you come up with a new title that is both descriptive, not unnecessarily broad, and is not "9/11 conspiracy theories"? I've made a new section for people to put proposals in. OK, I really am going out now (to my local pub!) Sdedeo (tips) 02:59, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

There's a big deal made of Larry Silverstein's insurance of WTC7 and of some transactions made the day before. There's also talk about reinserting mention of some alleged discrepancy with the gold ingots stored under the WTC. --Mmx1 03:04, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

No renaming or alterations to Conspiracy theories section

The subheading is going to remain titled as Conspiracy Theories because that is what they are...until any proof...any at all is provided that there was a government coverup, that there was controlled demolition, that there was any deliberate attempt by the government or covert operatives within the government to do these things. No one has provided any proof of anything..just their unscientific opinion and a bunch of hot air. The facts are thus: Islamic terrorists hijacked four wide body jets on the morning of 9/11/2001. On hit the north tower of the WTC, another hit the south tower, a third hit the Pentagon and the fourth crashed in a field in Pennyslvania after passengers tried to retake control of the plane. The WTC towers collapsed due to the impact of wide body jets flying into them at high speed and the resultant fires. Building 7 of the WTC was damaged on it's southwest corner with between 10 and 14 floors seriously compromised and fires that raged in the building for 7 hours, resulting in it's collapse. The pentagon had fire and structural damage to all five rings of it's side and a portion collapsed subsequently. Aircraft parts were found at each site. The FBI and other federal agencies have proof that Atta called from a phone oin his flight to another hijacker on a different plane just before he took the plane. The are over 30 recorded cell phone and airphone calls that were from passengers on the planes, all stating that they had been hijacked. Conspiracy=three or more persons plan to do something. Theory=unproven information...therefore not a fact. Controversy=two or more facts or an overlap of scientifically sound evidence which conflicts with each other. There is no controversy aside from what folks used to seeing bloggish nonsense all over the web wish to also see in this article. As Jimbo Wales has stated...we make the internet not suck...as far as these ludicrus websites that pollute the web with their nonsense about a government coverup, they all suck... our job is make sure this article doesn't suck like the rest of the web...so no, the subheading conspiracy theories stays. Take your nonsense to the articles that address nonsense appropriately in the linked conspiracy theory pages. I am not open to mediation on this matter.--MONGO 02:13, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Mongo, I just want to encourage you to continue working with the medcabal we have going here, just as Kmf, Mmx, Tom and Nick have agreed to do. Really the only other option is a formal dispute, and you may want to read User_talk:Sdedeo#I_owe_you_five_bucks on that question. Sdedeo (tips) 02:38, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Not interested...I'll bang my own drum on this one I guess. I see no reason to compromise the section just to appease those that want the article to more closely resemble some nonsensical blog or unscentific website that is controlled by a webmaster. Nothing the conspiracists have to sell is worth buying...it's not my fault they have been misled by junk science, but it is my fault if they were misinformed from this website, which is what would happen if I agreed to alter the title and wording of this section in dispute.--MONGO 03:04, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Mongo -- just to be clear: are you refusing to work with me and others in this mediation? If so, I will have to withdraw. I will strongly suggest that you try mediation to see if it works, and not to view the essential wikipedia process of discussion and evolution as "appeasement." Please give me a firm yes or no. Sdedeo (tips) 03:08, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

"I'm going to say right now that the final paragraph will look different from the current paragraph; that is just the nature of a WP dispute." I find this disturbing. Improvement is fine; evolution is fine. Compromise with anyone who drops in and demands it, regardless of the merits, is not. Tom Harrison ^Talk 03:14, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect to the process of mediation, the presence of one or several dissenters, no matter how loud, does not automatically nullify the status quo and require us to move to a compromise position. The goal of wiki should not be mollifying everyone, but accuracy. So far I've not seen any evidence presented that nullifies the status quo position that alternate theories qualify as conspiracy theories, only the POV of one editor (as seen above under Hypothesis - moved from my talk page) that is factually wrong. In that light, I have no problem rejecting his demands outright and reject any attempt to accomodate him. I will not take a hardline stance against any rewording of the article, but I agree with MONGO in spirit. Any rewording that places the alternate theories on anything near equal status will be rejected by myself.

Hah, looks like Tom beat me to it.--Mmx1 03:19, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Tom, just to be clear and repeat myself: I am not suggesting that we "appease" anybody in a way that violates the principles of wikipedia. However, I am stating facts when I say that when you are in a dispute with someone over an article, it is in the nature of things that the end result will be an article that differs -- hopefully in an improved fashion -- from the one you began with.

In the case of a few editors wielding misinformation, the "do nothing" option should never be overlooked. --Mmx1 03:19, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Mongo, still waiting to hear from you. Sdedeo (tips) 03:17, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

We are losing focus here. You are all making good points, and the "do nothing" option is on the table. Mongo, please tell me if you wish to continue participating in good faith in the mediation. I clicked your user page, and discovered that not only are you an administrator, but you also are member of the "Wikipedia:Harmonious_editing_club". Right now, I am assuming that everyone except possibly Mongo is "on board" with the mediation, and I am making a new section for you to put a suggested paragraph in. We can then wait. Sdedeo (tips) 03:24, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I recognize I take a hard stance and in fact, I prefer no link even to the conspiracy theory stuff...but I do recognize that this would be wrong as there are those that simply do believe in a government coverup, etc. I work in the concensus...so I vote for no changes, or for KMF164's suggestion below.--MONGO 03:34, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

OK, Mongo, great. I interpret your paragraph here to mean that you do wish to continue mediation in good faith. If this is not the case, tell us. We can all go ahead, and I can go here for the evening. (Man, that page needs work.) Sdedeo (tips) 03:37, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

April 5+ try number 2

I (Sdedeo (tips) 03:29, 5 April 2006 (UTC)) am going to be proactive. Here are two versions we already have; please feel free to add new ones. I really, really am going to the bar now. OK:

number one: proposed jointly by Kmf, Tom, Nick and I:

Speculation about U.S. and allied government complicity

{{main|9/11 conspiracy theories}}

Since the attacks, a small number of people have suggested that the presentation of the events above is seriously flawed. These include those who suggest that individuals in the government of the United States knew of the impending attacks and failed to act on that knowledge. Those questioning the mainstream account of 9/11 have speculated that the collapse of the World Trade Center was caused by explosives, that a commercial airliner did not really crash into the Pentagon, and that United Airlines Flight 93 was shot down. The vast majority view these suggestions as conspiracy theories.

number two: proposed by Kmf:

9/11 conspiracy theories

{{main|9/11 conspiracy theories}}

Since the attacks, a small number of people have raised doubts and theories about U.S. and allied government complicity in the events. These include those who suggest that individuals in the government of the United States knew of the impending attacks and failed to act on that knowledge. Those questioning the mainstream account of 9/11 have speculated that the collapse of the World Trade Center was caused by explosives, that a commercial airliner did not really crash into the Pentagon, and that United Airlines Flight 93 was shot down. The vast majority view these suggestions as conspiracy theories.

• I Conssider a link to 9/11 conspiracies theories or Researchers_questioning_the_official_account_of_9/11 a necessary thing.Normal nick 07:55, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

(Don't worry: the "{{main|9/11 conspiracy theories}}" is the thing that provides that link.) Sdedeo (tips) 08:57, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I object to the word 'small' in the phrase a small number of people(thousands to hundreds of thousands is not a small number, and is not either an accurate number as we have no figures as to how many beleieve which of ANY of these theories, including the mainstream theories), as well as the word 'vast' in the phrase The vast majority view these suggestions(for the same reasons as statesd above re: 'small'. I also object to the much-overused and negatively connotive phrase 'conspiracy theory' as discussed ad nauseum previously (conspiracy theory is also an accurate description of the mainstream theory, etc.). I would suggest Most people expressing an opinion on the matter place no credence in these alternate explanations. In fact, I would write that paragraph as :

number three: proposed by Pedant:

Since the attacks, a number of people proposed alternate theories about these events, such as suggesting: that the WTC buildings 1,2, and 7 were intentionally demolished for some reason; or that some group within the U.S. government either had foreknowlege of or were actually complicit in the events of September 11, 2001. Some have speculated that because of the absence of photographic evidence, that something other than a commercial airliner struck the Pentagon, and some suggest that United Airlines Flight 93 was shot down. Most people expressing an opinion on the matter place no credence in these alternate explanations.

I think that paragraph, while not treating the alternate theories as crazed ruminations of tinfoil hat wearers, also makes it clear that these views are not widely held. I think even those who adamantly maintain that the mainstream accepted theory is pure fiction would accept that wording and that it is a good compromise solution that those who staunchly support the mainstream theory can not in good faith object to... comment?Pedant 07:39, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think this version is going to be accepted. It makes no reference to the key idea that these explainations are considered conspiracy theories in a technical sense. It also goes into great detail about one particular theory, while leaving out a wide number of others. As mentioned above, people think the Saudis were involved, the Israelis, the banks... the list is endless. Sdedeo (tips) 08:57, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

number four: proposed jointly by Kmf, Tom, Nick and Sdedeo, and then reelaborated by nick:

Speculation About Conspiracies

{{main|9/11 conspiracy theories}}

Since the attacks, some people have suggested that the presentation of the events above is seriously flawed. These include those who suggest that individuals in the government of the United States knew of the impending attacks and failed to act on that knowledge. Those questioning the mainstream account of 9/11 have speculated that the collapse of the World Trade Center was caused by explosives, that a commercial airliner did not really crash into the Pentagon and that United Airlines Flight 93 was shot down. This speculations provided a base for several conspiracy theories.

• I Conssider a link to 9/11 conspiracy theories or Researchers questioning the official account of 9/11 a necessary thing. Normal nick 07:53, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

As I said above, this paragraph is unlikely to be accepted by others because it does not reference the crucial idea that these are considered conspiracy theories in the technical sense. Sdedeo (tips) 08:57, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I just changed my proposal according to your claim. Normal nick 10:16, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

• I'm open to any title that doesn't include the sequence of words "Conspiracy Theories". Normal nick 08:03, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, this is going to be the sticking point, it seems mainly between you and Mongo. Given the passions arising here, I am going to say that we will go with U-1 consensus: i.e., as a mediator I will support (and consider discussion finished) when a suggestion produces something that "U-1" (unnanimity minus one) supports as long as I personally feel that the suggestion is not a bad one (and I am largely flexible.) Both you and Mongo will need to discuss further with other folks here what you think the most NPOV route to go is. Good luck, Sdedeo (tips) 08:57, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

At best, if we all work really hard, we can work out a compromise that doesn't make the page any worse. Then what? Next week, anyone else can show up and again demand compromise. Further, I have concerns that changing this section title will later be used as precedent for removing conspiracy theory from article titles. Having thought about it, I support maintaining the language now in the article. Any compromise wording needs to title the section conspiracy theories, needs to include a link to 9/11 conspiracy theories as the main article, and needs to minimize description of the theories. Tom Harrison ^Talk 12:16, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Object to the archiving of 'carefully selected portions' of this discussion

I object to MONGO's archiving of selected portions of this discussion, it seems to me that he is trying to cover up the discussion of the appriateness/inappropriateness of someone who claims to work for the Department of Homeland Security editing an article about the event that sparked the forming of that department. To me it seems that a lot of the editing of this article and the careful excision of only selected portions of this discussion is motivated by very specific goals, not the goal of producing as clean fact-based article, but a goal of discrediting anyone who doesn't agree with the 9/11 commission report's findings. When archiving discussion, is it not appropriate to archive the entire discussion and not just portions? Pedant 07:39, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

We can all look up the history, there was nothing 'selective'. Peter Grey 07:56, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

As it was done to me before in this discussion, i sugest you to assume good faith. Normal nick 08:29, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I see nothing inappropriate in the archiving. Sdedeo (tips) 08:57, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Pics

something less controversial. Are there any pics of the first plane hitting? I can't find any on Wikipedia, so it may be that if they do exist, someone needs to upload them. --Midnighttonight 09:21, 5 April 2006 (UTC)