User talk:Curtis Clark

Talk:Viridiplantae

What do you think of my "rename and expand" proposal. I agree strongly with your concerns, but also think the current version doesn't really work as an article in its own right. --EncycloPetey (talk) 01:50, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

San Francisco meetup at WMF headquarters

Hi Curtis Clark,

I just wanted to give you a heads-up about the next wiki-meetup happening in SF. It'll be located at our very own Wikimedia Foundation offices, and we'd love it if some local editors who are new to the meetup scene came and got some free lunch with us :) Please sign up on the meetup page if you're interested in attending, and I hope to see you soon! Maryana (WMF) (talk) 19:25, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Abutilon × hybridum

Since you mention the possibility of a different name for the Abutilon ×hybridum article ...

The old suspicion that Abutilon ×hybridum, inter alia, is not an Abutilon (that is not congeneric with Abutilon theophrastii has recently been confirmed. There is a paper in preparation introducing a new name for the relevant group (Abutilon sect. Pluriovulata and Bakeridesia subg. Dipteron); this was trailed at Botany 2011. When this is published we would have an alternative name (e.g. Callianthe hybrids, though that would be somewhat broader, but better defined, than Abutilon ×hybridum). There is a possibility that there is a pre-existing name with priority, but this remains to be investigated.

On the other hand horticulturalists are still referring to Abutilon vitifolium, while botanists moved it to Corynabutilon 40 or more years ago Lavateraguy (talk) 11:01, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Supports my contention that the subject is notable even if the name could be better.--Curtis Clark (talk) 05:12, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Template:Botanist

Hi Curtis, we talked a long time back about an inline version of the above - an idea which was quashed. Looking at it again it occurs to me that it could be greatly improved if e.g. 'The standard author abbreviation Brot. is used to indicate this individual as the author when citing a botanical name' were changed to e.g. 'The standard author abbreviation Brot. is used to indicate Félix Avelar Brotero as the author when citing a botanical name'. The name would be taken from the title of the article in the same manner that the template:commonscat does i.e. using the title as default if no name is provided. I think that the change would make the language less stilted, something that is certainly to be wished. Let me know what you feel. regards Paul venter (talk) 16:29, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

In general, I like the idea. You should probably raise it on the template talk page.--Curtis Clark (talk) 18:12, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

OK, will do - hope it gets some response! Paul venter (talk) 18:37, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

It would seem that the discussion has come to an end. Would this be the appropriate time to suggest that as nobody was opposed to the idea, but only had reservations about the way a modified template would operate, that launching a test template might be a good idea? Paul venter (talk) 16:28, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

I agree.--Curtis Clark (talk) 16:31, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

MoS

The solution at MoS you support will be used to force lowercaps on all bird articles. The argument that WP:RS use UpperCase for Bird Names is not accapted by the Caps Warriors, who bluntly state that generic style guides are more important than all the bird literature combined when it comes to caps or not. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 03:25, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I have never been in favor of capitalizing common names. I am willing to admit that bird names are effectively proper nouns, because they equate more or less one-to-one with species. But that itself I find problematic, because the existence of these official "common" names causes the loss of actual vernacular names. And I would find it an especial travesty if an article capitalized truly vernacular plant names to maintain consistency with bird names: "The Northern Mockingbird perched in a California Bay before flying to a Weeping Birch."

That said, I've been willing to support the ornithologists, although I disagree with them. But the horse I do have in the race is referencing names (orthography and all) with reliable sources, and the offered solution would accomplish that.

I guess a sticking point for me is consistency. If bird names are proper nouns, and plant vernacular names aren't, there's no reason to enforce consistency. I could live with bird names being capitalized in running text in bird articles, but that would be the extent of it.--Curtis Clark (talk) 04:31, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I happen to be in favour of capitalizing English names of species (my spelling of "favour" may give a clue to why I differ from Curtis Clark; there are significant differences in the relative usage of the two styles between North Americans and elsewhere). But either way the argument that there is some difference between the English names of birds and the English names of other organisms is surely ridiculous. The Botanical Society of the British Isles has a list of standardized English names for British plants, which I would always want to use precisely as presented (as I do e.g. in the checklists I maintain for a National Nature Reserve). How can the status of these names be different to those of standardized bird names? Peter coxhead (talk) 10:27, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Aye, there's the rub. If it were only as simple as engvar! AOU bird names are demonstrably different from US plant names. There are factions in the US who want to standardize plant names, but fortunately (IMO) they are not well-organized. I probably seem overly dramatic when I talk about cultural imperialism, but we already have an international standardized set(s) of names, regulated by the ICN, ICZN, and other codes, and I've never seen the need to erect an English-language parallel system. My sympathies are entirely with documenting official and quasi-official English-language names from around the world, but IMO Wikipedia should have only one "official" system for internal use, that of binomials.

And I want to reaffirm that I'm talking about running prose. I support using the orthography of reliable sources in lists and article titles.--Curtis Clark (talk) 16:47, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

On both of these points I certainly agree. The British Mycological Society has recently published a set of English names for fungi; there was even a competition to invent them. Why on earth invent names for obscure species which no-one incapable of using a Latin name will ever be interested in? As a grumpy old man, I can only say that it's another all too common example of modern dumbing down, of trying to be populist in the hope of being more popular. If it could be agreed on, using the orthography of reliable sources in lists and article titles but lower case in running prose would be a very sensible compromise; sadly, I suspect that positions are too entrenched at present to get agreement on this. However, I'd completely forgotten that I originally came to your page for a different reason, which is now below. Peter coxhead (talk) 17:37, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Rejection of Cactus and conservation of Cactaceae

I've just been writing about this at Cactus#Taxonomy and classification. The sources I can access aren't very specialized as regards taxonomy, so I'd be grateful for an expert check of what I've written on this, if you have time. Peter coxhead (talk) 17:37, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

That sounds about right, but I'll need to dig up some of my Cactaceae literature (assuming I haven't given it all away) to check. The "unusual situation" is uncommon but not unique; iirc, Caryophyllum" is a nom. rej., leaving Caryophyllaceae in the same situation.--Curtis Clark (talk) 18:26, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I didn't know about Caryophyllaceae; from what you say it seems that "unusual" is ok as a description for Cactaceae, although the situation is not quite as unusual as I thought. What's not absolutely clear in my sources is the reason for the rejection of Cactus; they suggest it was because it had become used as both a genus and a family name. While it's doubtless true that non-botanical literature used "cactus" for the family, it surprises me that this would be thought relevant to a decision under the Code. If you do manage to dig anything up I'll be very interested. Thanks. Peter coxhead (talk) 21:41, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I rather suspect it's because Linnaeus used the name Cactus, which in Classical and Medieval Latin refers to the cardoon (Cynara cardunculus). This creates considerable confusion, and I have no idea at all why Linnaeus would have applied this longstanding name of a Mediterranean composite to the entirely dissimilar and unrelated New World Cactaceae. --EncycloPetey (talk) 03:41, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Iirc, one of his members of Cactus was likely a Melocactus species, which, with its fuzzy cephalium, vaguely resembles a cardoon capitulum. --Curtis Clark (talk) 03:48, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Ah, that's a very interesting point (the resemblance between the Melocactus cephalium and the cardoon capitulum); none of the sources I've seen so far make this connection – they just connect the spikiness of cacti with the spikiness of the cardoon. It fits the history well. A species of the modern genus Melocactus is said to have been one of the first to arrive in Europe in the late 15th century (Anderson 2001:456). J. P. de Tournefort published Melocactus in 1719 (one of four genera apparently published before 1753); the derivation is melon (apple) + cactos, referring to the shape of the body. (Cactus melocactus L. is part of the modern Melocactus caroli-linnaei N.P.Taylor – another nice taxonomic point since if it had been an animal it would have been transferred to "Melocactus melocactus".) Linnaeus' Cactus is generally regarded as a shortening of Melocactus. If Curtis Clark's explanation of the name can be sourced it would be nice to add to the article.

The answer to why Cactus was rejected will be in the 1905 Vienna Rules, but they don't appear to be online, and at present I can't access a copy. Peter coxhead (talk) 11:13, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

It's hard for me to imagine that I'm the first person to make the connection, but I thought of it myself, and have never seen a reference. (I once independently derived the Hardy-Weinberg equation, and only at the end of the process realized why it looked so familiar.)--Curtis Clark (talk) 15:17, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

I found a bit more on the history of the name which seems to me to strengthen your suggestion. Melocactus was apparently first called Echinomelocactus by de Tournefort, before being shortened. As echino refers to the spines and melo to the body shape, it's even more plausible that cactus refers to some other feature.

Now you need to publish a note somewhere, so we can source it and put it in Wikipedia... Peter coxhead (talk) 09:10, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

On the other hand, "spiny melon thistle" might only refer to a general resemblance. I looked at some cardoon heads on Commons, and the resemblance is vague enough that I'd want to find a reference from Linnaeus's era. Some Cirsium are a somewhat better match.--Curtis Clark (talk) 04:00, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Botany status

Please see Talk:Botany#Where_to_go_now. Thank you. 512bits (talk) 15:59, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Present

There is a present for you on my user page.512bits (talk) 02:18, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks!--Curtis Clark (talk) 04:14, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Science lovers wanted!

Science lovers wanted!

Hi! I'm serving as the wikipedian-in-residence at the Smithsonian Institution Archives until June! One of my goals as resident, is to work with Wikipedians and staff to improve content on Wikipedia about people who have collections held in the Archives - most of these are scientists who held roles within the Smithsonian and/or federal government. I thought you might like to participate since you are interested in the sciences! Sign up to participate here and dive into articles needing expansion and creation on our to-do list. Feel free to make a request for images or materials at the request page, and of course, if you share your successes at the outcomes page you will receive the SIA barnstar! Thanks for your interest, and I look forward to your participation! Sarah (talk) 01:06, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

pronunciation

Answered on my talk. You might want to review Taxonomic_rank#Terminations_of_names, which gives my attempt at pronunciation for all the regular endings (though I left out optional syllables). Presumably this one should be changed, but maybe others as well. — kwami (talk) 04:53, 21 April 2012 (UTC)