Talk:Puberty

A Question

Is it really possible for gonadarche/pubarche to occur in boys in ages about 10 and 11? Just a question. I'm only wondering because I have no idea who in the world would measure the size of a boy's testicles! I don't quite get what it would look like, either, but I don't want to see pictures! And if a boy has hairs slightly more prominent on the testes than other areas of skin, what does that mean? Thanks, Puggie4276 (talk) 02:51, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Compromise

You can suggest a compromis here. Pass a Method talk 19:05, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I have no compromise to suggest. I am following WP:LEAD, just as I follow all Wikipedia rules and just about all of its WP:Manual of Style guidelines. Your version of the lead does not adequately summarize the article. The lead already needs more to do the article justice, and you are mainly subtracting instead of adding in your latest edits. If you want to add the line about ejaculation in boys and menstruation in girls being a major sign of puberty, fine. Flyer22 (talk) 19:13, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

In all your responses you have been extremely vague despite numerous requests for specificity and its slightly annoying. I have used your suggestion Pass a Method talk 20:39, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't consider my responses vague. I just cannot elaborate on it any better than WP:LEAD. I also don't know what you mean about "numerous requests." You stated in your edit summary to specify, and that was one time, before you commented here. Anyway, good to see that we reached some sort of compromise. Flyer22 (talk) 21:16, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 10 January 2012

Please change the following urls because they're currently pointing to a 404 page on our website.

Posted URLS

• Puberty in girls: interactive animation of Tanner stages
• Puberty in boys: interactive animation of Tanner stages

Proper URLS

• Puberty in girls: interactive animation of Tanner stages
• Puberty in boys: interactive animation of Tanner stages

Chris renaud (talk) 19:34, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

 Done — Bility (talk) 19:44, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Brain, behaviour and mind

I think this article should mention what effects puberty has here, any takers? I do vaguely remember the effects of steroids on various aspects of neurology but would need some time to become more familiar with it again. Richiez (talk) 13:12, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Beginning of puberty

I don't want to change this myself but somewhere in the article it says girls begin puberty at 10. But earlier on in this same article it says girls and boys don't begin until 13 or 14. But in the pedophilia article it says pedophilia is a sexual attraction by adults to minors under the age of puberty, and defines that as generally being those under the age of fourteen, although it says the age of puberty may vary. How are those three statements consistent?--RJR3333 (talk) 05:27, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

If you don't mind putting up with me, here's my answer: You say "earlier on in this same article it says girls and boys don't begin until 13 or 14." Well, since the information about girls generally starting puberty at age 10 is mentioned in the first section of the article, the only "earlier on" I see that you could be talking about is the lead. And in that case, you are confusing things. The lead says "The major landmark of puberty for males is the first ejaculation, which occurs on average at age 13. For females, it is menarche, the onset of menstruation, which occurs on average between ages 12 and 13." That is not talking about the beginning of puberty, as in the onset of puberty. First ejaculation and menarche are not the start of puberty. They are significant points of puberty, meaning that the boys are nearing reproduction capability and the girls may now have reproduction capability. But puberty starts before the ability to reproduce happens. A girl has started undergoing breast development before menarche happens, for example.

As for the Pedophilia article, as you know, it defines pedophilia as a primary or exclusive sexual interest in prepubescent children. It says "generally age 13 years or younger, though onset of puberty may vary." Not 14 years or younger. "14 years or younger," as you also know, is the proposed criteria to combine hebephilia with pedophilia and retitle the disorder "Pedophilic Disorder" (previously proposed under the title "Pedohebephilic Disorder"), which means that early pubescents would be included. So that is not the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) saying that 14-year-olds are generally included under "prepubescent." That is the proposal showing that researchers know that 14-year-olds are not usually prepubescent...but can look it. Since it is no longer that common for a girl to hit puberty at age 13, it seems that the only reason that the DSM lets the age criteria extend to 13 is because of the fact that it is more common that a boy may hit puberty that late, and because 13-year-old pubescent boys still look prepubescent. Unlike girls, who can look clearly pubescent due to breast and hip development, there is little to no noticeable physical change in an early pubescent boy. Yes, people who are 10-14 (especially ages 11-14) can be pubescent, but that age range also falls into the prepubescent territory (hence the proposal to combine pedophilia and hebephilia). But it's very rare these days that a person is going to be just starting puberty at age 14 or 15, which is why the pedophilia age range stops at 13. It includes 13 just to be safe. Flyer22 (talk) 06:38, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Kallmann syndrome

Would it be possible to have a mention in the article, maybe even just in the "see also" section about Kallmann syndrome. It is a rare condition that is often overlooked when talking about delayed or absent puberty. It might be of interest to somebody reading this article who has not started puberty by the age of 15. Early diagnosis means so much to people like myself with this condition I think a mention of it in this article would be useful. Thank you. Neilsmith38 (talk) 12:28, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

If you can find a good way to insert it into the article, then I suggest you do it. See WP:BOLD. Make sure to use references when appropriate. Lighthead ^þ 18:42, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Does the lead section imply that libido is invariably absent in pre-pubescents?

Because that would be obviously incorrect. Everything Is Numbers (talk) 10:10, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Do you mean this sentence: "In response to the signals, the gonads produce hormones that stimulate libido and the growth, function, and transformation of the brain, bones, muscle, blood, skin, hair, breasts, and sexual organs". In that case, I don't think this section implies that libido is invariably absent in pre-pubescents. It only says it doesn't get stimulated in the same way in pre-pubescents as in pubescents. Lova Falk talk 17:01, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes. When you say, “it doesn't get stimulated in the same way,” do you mean differences in the bodily/objective route by which it is generated or the differences in the mental/subjective way in which it's experienced? Just trying to clear this matter up. Everything Is Numbers (talk) 10:36, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't know! I just read what the sentence says. As a comparison: "The government program produces grants that stimulate adolescents to attend school" - it doesn't mean that without the grant no adolescents would attend school. I hope that this makes matters more clear (but I am not sure of it)... Lova Falk talk 12:55, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Lede and puberty

User:ThinkSlam first added some content which I reverted since it was inappropriately sourced (to BabyCenter and Avert which are by no means reliable sources for articles about medical/biological issues - and what he added was also quite incorrect). He has now added to the lede the phrase The average age of puberty in girls is 10-and-a-half years old; the average age of puberty in boys is 11-and-a-half to 12 years old (the source is better but not ideal). What he meant to say, I believe, is The average age of the onsent/beginning of puberty in girls is 10-and-a-half years old... . Apart from being poorly written, I think it doesn't really belong in the lede. If the lede mentions the age of onsent of puberty, and then the age of the "landmark" (also note that the fact that menarche and the first ejaculation are the "landmark" of puberty is quite WP:OR, unsourced and subjective), then I think it should mention the age for the end of puberty too. But this would mean having part of the first section in the lede and I don't think it is necessary or desirable (not to mention that we should show restraint when we bias the lede towards the Western World/United States in regard to the age of puberty and especially menarche).Skydeepblue (talk) 23:14, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

As you likely know, I commented at ThinkSlam's talk page after you about some of the things you mentioned above. When I was tweaking his latest addition (though not a complete tweak, since there are still currently grammar issues, as you noted), I also considered that it's not lead material. But then I figured that, taking into account WP:LEAD, maybe it is since it is a very relevant aspect of puberty (of course...this material is mentioned lower in the article), and because the lead mentions the average ages for menarche and first ejaculation. I'm not hard-pressed on either decision regarding this. I feel that you should invite ThinkSlam to this section to discuss it. As for menarche and first ejaculation being considered the "landmark" of puberty, the Menarche article also currently states that menarche is the "central event of female puberty, as it signals the possibility of fertility." That is also unsourced, but there are reliable sources out there that state this (including the bit about first ejaculation). Flyer22 (talk) 03:41, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

I tweaked the onset wording, and will refer ThinkSlam to this discussion. Flyer22 (talk) 03:53, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

I made some changes; I added both the ages of the onsent and the ages of the end, using the sources from the first sections of the article; and I also kept the age of the "landmark". I think it's important to clarify these things, since many people do not have a proper understanding of what puberty is and that it is process of several years during which there are gradual changes. Some tend to think that puberty begins with menarche, others that it ends with menarche...Skydeepblue (talk) 18:46, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

I made some tweaks[1][2] to your changes, but, other than that, I'm of course fine with them. Flyer22 (talk) 20:00, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

I take it that by the "Puberty is a process which involves several gradual physical changes." line, you wanted to get across that it lasts for several years. But that aspect is now clear in the lead from the completion of puberty age ranges that you added to it. And that puberty involves several gradual changes is clear from the initial paragraph. That's why I removed that line, as seen in the link above. Flyer22 (talk) 20:10, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

I changed "On average, girls begin puberty at ages 10-11; boys at ages 11-13" to "...boys at ages 11-12"; sources differ on the exact age - according to BBC[3] it's "around 10 or 12" (BBC isn't a medical source, but still a very reliable news source). The reason I changed it was to provide consecutive numbers in the same way as for girls (for whom it's given as 10-11). If the average age is given 10-11 for girls and 11-13 for boys people will believe there's more variability in the age of onset for boys than for girls and I've found no evidence that this is the case.Skydeepblue (talk) 01:14, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, sources differ on the exact ages. Most sources, however, still cite "10 for girls, and 12 for boys." But that has been stated since the 1980s, and, as we know, puberty often happens earlier these days...especially among girls. It seems that stating that boys begin puberty at 11 or 12 is now more accurate than stating 12 or 13. This was discussed at the Hebephilia article in the Talk:Hebephilia#"Boys begin puberty generally at ages 12-13" discussion, with sexologist James Cantor weighing in. So because of that and because the url sources used in the article for the age ranges give 11-12 and 12 respectively for boys, I'm fine with your change, but we she should alter other articles that relate to puberty, such as the Adolescence article (which a class is currently working on; see the talk page of that article), in the same way for consistency. Since you removed 13 from the lead, I removed 18 from the lead and altered the lower body of the article so that 13 and 18 are removed as well. I removed 18, because, as the Duke University Hospital source states, "The whole process of puberty should take three to four years." It doesn't exactly last several years (if you define "several" to mean "7 or more," or even as "at least 6 or more"), but rather a few years. This is also why sources, such as this MedlinePlus source, stating that puberty typically ends at 17 for girls are perplexing. Given that girls typically start puberty at ages 10 or 11, stating that they typically end puberty at 14 or 15 is accurate...while 17 for girls is too late to be typical.

I'll ask Nancydarling to weigh in on this. Flyer22 (talk) 15:55, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Note: I changed the heading of this section by adding "and puberty" to more accurately reflect the content of this discussion. Flyer22 (talk) 16:07, 13 October 2012 (UTC)