Talk:Kuroneko

Kuroneko

Kuroneko also appears as the name of a small, randomly appearing, black cat in the Japanese animation, Trigun.

is there a page for this chracter or a page for List of Trigun characters? It could be added as a link here. Andrzejbanas 00:26, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Also Kuroneko (singer). I consider that the page "Kuroneko" needs to be disambiguated, for this word is a common noun which indicates general black cats.Nemsirp (talk) 23:00, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

original story?

According to an interview, this is based on a story called "The Cat's Revenge". I think it is Saga no bakeneko, maybe? Anyone? JoshuSasori (talk) 07:10, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

in a groovy grove

In case anyone hasn't seen this film, it is actually set in a bamboo grove. The bamboo is a motif of the film. JoshuSasori (talk) 02:32, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Akutagawa reference in title

I think a discussion of the title is important enough for the introduction, although a new section ==Title== might be appropriate. I do not have a source that specifically says the filmmakers intended a reference to Akutagawa, but yabu no naka in general usage is already a reference to Akutagawa. I intend to add that reference to the In a Grove article, and a lengthy discussion of the etymology of the words used in the title is indeed inappropriate for this article. If no reliable sources specifically mention Akutagawa's story being linked to this film, then of course we probably shouldn't call it a "reference", but perhaps we could include some reference to it in the article? elvenscout742 (talk) 02:41, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

WP:SYNTH. JoshuSasori (talk) 02:42, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm familiar with WP:SYNTH, but when dictionaries always give the Akutagawa reference as the source for the expression, it still seems encyclopedic to mention it as a guide to English-speaking readers who aren't familiar with the etymologies of Japanese terms. Also, we probably need to clarify why the same phrase is translated as both "in a bamboo grove" and "mysterious/obscure", since English-speaking readers who aren't familiar with Akutagawa are unlikely to think this is intuitive. If we delete one translation, it should be the bamboo grove one, since yabu no naka actually doesn't translate this way except in the title of the Akutagawa story.

Also: I clarified my original point, with a dictionary reference for the etymology of the word. Not sure about the formatting, though. -- I don't know how to cite a specific page of Jim Breen (the URL for every entry just redirects to the homepage), but Bober just copies him, so it seems like plagiarism or faulty referencing to not mention Breen. So where should I say the source comes from?

elvenscout742 (talk) 02:55, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

No, you need a reliable source which makes the connection between "Yabu no naka" and the title, otherwise it is WP:SYNTH. JoshuSasori (talk) 03:02, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Also I suspect WWWJDIC and the underlying dictionaries are WP:USERG. JoshuSasori (talk) 03:03, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

No, because yabu no naka is already in the title. Translating it is not a violation of NOR; in fact, it is recommended by WP:NCFILM. Also, the translation that was already there was incorrect, since it didn't accurately grasp the meaning of the title (it's meant to be a mystery as to what actually the black cat is).

Jim Breen is a widely recognized, reliable source on the Japanese language, and his "user-generated" website is his official home page as a professor of Monash University. Also, see [1], which is the group actually responsible for the dictionary's content. Nothing about it is WP:USERG. However, if it still bothers you, we can go to 広辞苑 or some other recognized dictionary: they all say the same thing, and no one actually says yabu no naka in Japanese to literally mean "a bamboo grove".

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Elvenscout742 (talk • contribs)

(Sorry about the unsigned comment. As the colons indicated, I wasn't sure if I should continue or just post, and I decided in favour of the latter but forgot to sign.elvenscout742 (talk) 03:47, 27 December 2012 (UTC))

The film is about a black cat in a bamboo grove. It's WP:SYNTH to put the composite title words together to come up with a conclusion about what the title means. Proving that WWWJDIC is not WP:USERG needs more than your say-so. I suggest you take it to the reliable sources noticeboard. JoshuSasori (talk) 03:49, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

I may do just that, although it should be pointed out that within Japanese language circles it is probably the best-known and most-widely used J-E dictionaries; it is also more acceptable on English Wikipedia than 広辞苑, 大辞泉, etc. since it uses English.

The phrase yabu no naka is so common in Japanese that it appears in all widely-used dictionaries. Translating it according to its actual meaning is perfectly acceptable and cannot be taken to violate any part of WP:NOR. I am willing to have a constructive debate with you over whether we should include any specific reference to the Ryūnosuke Akutagawa or In a Grove articles within this article (although I don't really mind either way), but not over the meaning of the common phrase yabu no naka.

elvenscout742 (talk) 04:32, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Your opinions are not reliable sources. JoshuSasori (talk) 04:37, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

It's not my opinion. It's a fact, which is backed up by Japanese common usage and verified by reference to reliable dictionaries.[2][3] You need a reliable source to say that this film's title is one of the only instances in modern Japanese history when the phrase yabu no naka has been meant only to be taken literally and not to have anything to with common usage. If the filmmakers wanted to simply say it took place within a bamboo grove, they would have used the word takebayashi, which is far more common than yabu.[4][5] (By the way, I know the black cat is in a bamboo grove: that's why I said the title has two meanings.) elvenscout742 (talk) 04:53, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

No, one doesn't need a reliable source to remove things from articles. WP:BURDEN. JoshuSasori (talk) 04:57, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

I am aware of WP:BURDEN. But I have already provided three reliable sources. You are claiming that this film just happens to use an established phrase that exists in everyday Japanese usage, and doesn't mean what the phrase means. Providing a translation of the title based on what the Japanese title actually means (rather than what one or two Wikipedians think it means) is perfectly acceptable according to WP:NCFILM. In order to prove that the title doesn't mean what it appears to mean, you need Shindo or someone else to have actively said "The film has this title solely because parts of it take place within a bamboo grove; it does not have anything to do with the phrase yabu no naka" or something to that effect. elvenscout742 (talk) 05:23, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

The problem with this discussion is that you present your opinions as if they are facts. JoshuSasori (talk) 05:30, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

What opinions? I have only presented objective facts. You have presented your opinion that Shindo and whoever else did not mean to use the phrase yabu no naka the way all other Japanese use it regularly, and the way it is defined in all three dictionaries I have cited. elvenscout742 (talk) 05:35, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Quoth Elvenscout742: What opinions? I have only presented objective facts. - no, you have only presented your opinions. You haven't provided a single shred of convincing evidence which supports the conclusion that "yabu no naka" only or even usually means what you said it does. Further, this flatly contradicts the fairly obvious fact that the film is set in a bamboo grove. Sorry but I am finding this rather humorous. JoshuSasori (talk) 05:44, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

I never argued that the film isn't set in a bamboo grove. I have presented you with the facts that this phrase exists and means what I say it does; you responded by impugning the reliability of Jim Breen(!) and demanding that I show you a source that links the phrase used in the title of this film to the film itself. Anyway, it looks like this is a difference of opinion and neither of us is going to change our opinion. In order to establish a clearer consensus I have opened a discussion at the OR noticeboard. elvenscout742 (talk) 05:55, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

A mistaken Japanese native speaker writes on the film

At this page, an external link from the Japanese wikipedia article on this topic, we find an extensive description of the plot of the film, written by a Japanese native. In it we find "yabu no naka" mentioned six times excluding the title: "藪の中の女の屋敷", "藪の中の家", "藪の中の屋敷", "藪の中の屋敷", "藪の中の道", and finally "藪の中の家". In each case, the words "yabu no naka" refer to the house and the pathway. If it is true that Japanese people exclusively use the words "yabu no naka" to refer to a mystery cat, rather than an actual bamboo grove, should someone not urgently inform this misguided native speaker? JoshuSasori (talk) 07:54, 27 December 2012 (UTC)