User talk:Grandmaster

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DYK

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--Gurubrahma 06:53, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! That’s cool. Grandmaster 07:27, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

DYK

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Azarbaijan (Iran)

Hi, i think the dispute is similar to that of the Persian Gulf, so i was following its layout. There is no Southern Azarbaijan region in Iran and it's not recognized or called that by the Gov't of Iran, so i think that needs to be respected. Personally, as an Azari myself, i am completely offended by the term because i have only heard it used by people from the Repiblic of Azerbaijan. But, i understand that it is a term used by some, and regardless if they might be pan-turkists pushing their pov, it still should be mentioned in the article, though not as it's official title. You do agree that Southern Azarbaijan is not the official name right? Rugsnotbombs 15:23, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

The term South Azerbaijan is used not only in the Republic of Azerbaijan, but also by academic sources, such as encyclopedia Iranica. This is from encyclopedia Iranica, which often uses the terms North and South Azerbaijan:

In North (Soviet) Azerbaijan the Latin alphabet was introduced in 1925…. In South (Iranian) Azerbaijan the Arabic alphabet is still used … [1] See page 246

Therefore the term is notable, and it’s not mentioned as an official title, the official title goes in the first line. It just said that this term is also sometimes used, which is true, and there’s no conflict over it on international level, so I suggest we restore it the way it was. Grandmaster 16:23, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I see your point, but it still isn't internationally recognized by anyone, not the UN or anyone else. I mean, sure that source mentions it, but is it really reliable? if it was such a common name then why hasn't anyone else used it? That would be like me wanting to add the word "vagabond" under other usages of the word arab because an edition of Webster's dictionary defined it as such (see[2]). Also, the name dispute in the Persian Gulf article has a much stronger case because the other term was used in National Geographic, a much more reliable source. I still don't believe that it should be mentioned up top or anywhere in the article, however i can understand leaving it where it is. if we can't agree maybe we should ask someone else for some suggestions. Rugsnotbombs 16:48, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, international recognition is not relevant here, since the region is part of Iran, and not an independent state. UNO does not recognize the names of the regions within countries, it only deals with independent states or disputed areas. As for Iranica, other Iranian users told me that it was the most reliable source about Iran, I can show you their postings where they claimed that. So simple mentioning that the term is also sometimes used should be enough. I also don’t mind a third party neutral opinion, I suggest we ask Tombseye for his opinion about this issue. if you can suggest anyone else, I won’t mind either, as long as he’s impartial in this issue. Grandmaster 17:12, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

that fine with me, i also added it to the talk page. i figure we can just work something out, seeing all these rv's over and over is getting boring and old. so hopefully we can come to some agreement. i have a question though, you do agree that southern azarbaijan is not the official name of the region right? and only Iran has the right to name it? thanks Rugsnotbombs 19:33, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Of course I agree with that. The name of South Azerbaijan is not presented as an official name, the article just says that this name is also sometimes used, which is correct. The name that sometimes used cannot be official. Grandmaster 04:09, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

user:Grandmaster you might want to look at this. It wil shatter you fiction history that you are trying to force on Iranians. http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2002/October/Azari/index.html It is Azarbaijan and it it totally correct 72.57.230.179

Verify for me that Ethnicty is defined by language

YOur statment is dead wrong72.57.230.179

I disagree - it's a) language (e.g. Bulgarians vs Romanians) - b) culture (e.g. Serbs vs Croats) - c) self-identification (e.g. Germans vs Austrians). --Telex 10:01, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

True. The main criterion is language, so since Azeris speak a Turkic language, they are not Iranian people. Other criteria applied if the frst one matches. I quoted encyclopedia Britannica [3]:

The people

Azerbaijan has a growing and youthful population. The Turkic-speaking Azerbaijanis (Azeris), who make up more than four-fifths of the country's population, are predominantly Shi'ite Muslims. They combine in themselves the dominant Turkic strain, which flooded Azerbaijan especially during the Oguz Seljuq migrations of the 11th century, with mixtures of older inhabitants—Iranians and others—who had lived in Transcaucasia since ancient times. About 13 million Azerbaijanis live abroad, most of them in Iran.

The Azerbaijani language belongs to the southwestern (Oguz or Turkmen) group of the Turkic languages. There are four main dialect divisions. The literary tradition dates to the 14th century. The Arabic script was used until the 20th century; the Cyrillic alphabet was introduced in 1939. In 1992 the Azerbaijani government switched from the Cyrillic to the Roman alphabet as its official orthography. Grandmaster 10:11, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Ya, hahaha; Turkic-speaking. Exactly just that and noting more. Azaris are Turcophone Iranians and I have given unbiased scientific data. Humans can have opinions, but science is absolute. 72.57.230.179

I think the Nazis based ethnicity on race - nice ;-) --Telex 11:32, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, exactly. Grandmaster 11:46, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

If I'm not mistaken, our anon friend has just violated the 3RR. --Telex 11:54, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and it's not his first time. Check the history of his talk page. It's time to report it. Grandmaster 11:56, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm doing it now. --Telex 12:01, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Grandmaster 12:02, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I interpitate that as an attack and I can see that you are ganging up om me. Ethnicity is not defined by language alone it is not the soul definig force. Otherwise African-Americans would be Anglo-Saxons and most Africa would be European. Hungarians are a speakers of an Altaic language related to Turkic, but are considered being ethnicly of the European peoples. Please read my citations. And if I am not mistaken you are being incivil and fighting 72.57.230.179

If you or User:Telex could do it that would be better. I'd prefer not to undo the contributions of someone I have just blocked. Bit of a faux pas. :) - FrancisTyers 12:45, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, but please don't block me for 3RR violation. Grandmaster 12:47, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Done already by Telex. Grandmaster 12:52, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

BTW if you speak Azeri, you really should write an Azeri section for List of common phrases in various languages. --Telex 13:14, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, I will do that when I have time. And thanks for your contribution to Azerbaijani people discussion. Grandmaster 17:45, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

IN REGARDS TO YOUR THREAT

"Please do not feed the troll"

I have a right to add that and it does not call for an occupation that is just your POV. File the formal complaint and cool heads will prevail. I would also like to point out you have a history of deleting other peoples contributions and legitmate comments on the talk page and I will point this out. I suggest you take a look at the rules. As an "Azari" I have the right to express myself. Now we are talking about expression and you are not allowed to threaten me on breaching any civil conduct when it comes to expression. 72.57.230.179

Actually I asked about so stop making things up. i am a memeber and it is going on the page. So stop trying to give me your stories. It is going on the Azari Wikiproject page where it belongs. See user;grandmaster if you look at this whole discourse of\r if any other user does they will see how artifical this debate is on your part. There is nothing you can do about freedom of epression of view for a page not related to article edits. You have o right to threaten anyone either. I suggest you start accomadating different and equlally valid perspectives in non-academic fields. I am warning you for the second time if you delete the contribution it will be desruption and vandalism. You can go complain, but you may not delete. 72.57.230.179

User:Grandmaster STOP. This is your third warning. You have no right to delete a userbox. 72.57.230.179

I suggest you examine yourslef and the rules you have violated before making cliams about others. 72.57.230.179

Pan-Iranism

Thats good to know Grandmaster, I am glad -- - K a s h ^{Talk | email} 20:11, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Cool. It's good for a change to achieve a compromise once in a while :) Grandmaster 20:36, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I know! Tell me about it ;) --K a s h ^{Talk | email} 22:51, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I think it’s good that we can agree on certain things, I prefer to resolve the issues by talk, and not edit wars, and I‘m sure that you are also of the same opinion. I think something needs to be done to improve relations between Azeri and Iranian communities, because I don’t think there are any irreconcilable differences between us. Grandmaster 20:16, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I see I was too late. I was away. Have you seen the Greater Iran article by any chance? I think it's pretty well-written. —Khoikhoi 04:47, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Yep, it looks alright. Grandmaster 04:57, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Grandmaster, please stop your Turkish vandalism

Instead, please provide some arguments in support of your pointless reverts, and don't remove references. If you disagree, prove your point, providing your own references. Test56 19:30, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Rovoam. You were blocked till 2026, it’s too early for you to come back. Grandmaster 19:43, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

An admin once told me that "there are no restrictions when dealing with banned users" (including 3RR). Do you think that applies to permabanned users or 2020s banned users? —Khoikhoi 05:16, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I’m not sure. It depends on an admin, they might as well block you for 3RR violation. The best is immediately inform the admins. Grandmaster 05:19, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Azerbaijani people

Frankly no I don't think it's appropriate. It's basically emphasizing one point of view which is discussed in the text. There isn't a single encyclopedia that renders an ethnic group in such a contentious manner. I sometimes grow weary of the edit wars, but it's completely useless information. There is a section to discuss the various origins of the Azeris including an Iranic background. A smart move would be to clean-up that section and add relevant info. about South Azerbaijan, but the editors who keep adding that stuff don't seem to be interested in constructive editing it seems. Tombseye 05:38, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I moved it to the Iranian origins section of the article rather than deleting it for the time being. I'm usually willing to compromise on things whenever possible. I think if we didn't watch the article it would be re-written as the Azaris, an Iranian people who happen to speak a Turkic language! Sad state of affairs. Tombseye 06:01, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I figured I might as well join since I'm kind of an unofficial member already! ;) Tombseye 06:34, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

True, and now you are a formal member. I’m really glad. Grandmaster 06:36, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! Say, I noticed you dealt with some of the changes IP was conducting on History of Azerbaijan. I tried to reason with him (and Khoikhoi did as well as always) as to why Azerbaijan actually does have its own history that isn't always about Iran, but I'm not sure the message got through. I really do hate it when big countries with hegemony on their minds try to subsume their neighbors and stake out their claims to notable historical events and figures. Anyway, I'll post any relevant stuff that comes to mind. I think the Azerbaijani people page needs to be fixed up at some point as I initially just tried to render it readable and I think it could use some more fine tuning like abdulnr and myself have been doing on Turkmen people. Probably try to do it over the next few days in-between work. Ciao. Tombseye 06:47, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Wikiproject Azeri

Hi, thanks, I'm also looking forward to work in this project--Hattusili 21:33, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Nizami

Hi I know we have agreements and disagreements. But I do not think we want to make the article about Nizami Ganjavi about his ethnicity. All we are sure of is 100% Kurdish mother. Other than that, the Qom part is in some old manuscripts, and that is just a 'maybe'. I think you should ask your friend to stop, since this will get Iranians involved. Also to deny that Shirin is an Armenian (and note I do not like Armenian Dashnak party or any fascist organization), is also wrong and it could get Armenians involved. I would appreciate it if you guys can come up with an agreement so that other Iranians and even Armenians and Wikipedians are not involved. --Ali doostzadeh 20:56, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment. But the user is definitely pan-turkist in many aspects and has some negative feelings towards Persians and Armenians. I think we should resolve it like you said and the Encyclopedia Britannica did. I think you can convince him. Else I could it see it as being battle ground between Iranians, Azarbaijanis, Armenians, Tajiks and etc. Something which is not necessary. --Ali doostzadeh 12:44, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, I’ll try. Grandmaster 04:24, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Azeris

Hi GM,

I changed it because our friend 72. wanted more Iranian Azeris in the pic, so I picked on I knew. We can change it if there are more objections, he just seems like an interesting guy to me. We can go Googooosh if people don't like it. —Khoikhoi 05:13, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I think people won’t be happy. It’s always like that with politicians, unless it’s someone like Nelson Mandela. I think Lotfi Zade is the best one to pick. Grandmaster 05:28, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, Behmod seems to agree. I wanted to have an Azeri who was an Iranian nationalist, which is another reason I picked him. The problem about Zade is that he was born in Baku. I'd rather have some one born in Iran. —Khoikhoi

Sorry to come in late on this, but a female is often good to have on any page about ethnic groups whenever possible I think. Googoosh would have been good for that reason. As far as I know, she identifies herself as an Iranian and is probably loyal to Iran more than anything else anyway. I'm not an expert on her though, but I'm just saying. She has a big following of Persians who love her in LA so that's the only reason I've even heard of her. Tombseye 21:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I think we should not have any politicians, as some like a certain one, while others don’t. It’s good to have a female, because Azeri women are very active in political, cultural and economic life of Azerbaijan on both sides of Araks. Or maybe we need to include more pictures, like in the article about Kazakhs? There are so many cool Azeris, it’s hard to make a final pick :) I for one think that Kerim Kerimov, head of the Soviet space program would be good for inclusion. Grandmaster 21:34, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I do not agree with selecting pop stars or celebrities as representative of a race. Do you think, all Americans are handsome like Tom Cruz, or all Turks are handsome like Tarkan or Chinese like Michelle Yeoh or all Iranian Azeris are as beautiful as Googoosh. Their beauty or looks are usually exceptional and also sometimes fake(by unusual make-ups or beauty surgeries)

Celebrities are as good as anyone else. You know that we include in that collage prominent people in various fields of activity, and we Azeris have not only prominent politicians, but also chess grandmasters, scientists, musicians, artists, poets, etc. This should be reflected, but also I think we should have there at least one female. I think we may need to increase the number of pictures in the collage. Grandmaster 10:39, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

About the name of Ordubad

Hi Grandmaster Thank you about your comment about Ordubad and I really appreciate it. I try not to be bias and your comments will be helpful. Although, as I am new here. I may have some mistakes in first efforts.

Anyway, I believe Ordubad is a Persian name. Because "bad" is a Persian name and you have no problem with it. The word "ordu" is used in either Azeri or Persian but may have a Persian origin. In Persian it also means camp or army. You can find this word in old Persian literature. I bring an example from an old Persian literature written by Khwaju Kermani (1280- ?), a Persian sufi and poet from south of Iran. The existence of it in old Iranian texts may indicate the Persian origin of this word and in my idea Azeris probably adopted it from Persian.

                                   خوشا چشمي که بيند روي ترکان

خنک بادي که آرد بوي ترکان

                                   مي نوشين و نوشا نوش مستان

در اردو هاياهوي ترکان

                                   دل شيرافکنان افتاده در دام

ز روبه بازي آهوي ترکان

[4]

The rough translation of the second line is:

Drink and enjoy drinking drunkenly, while beauties are chanting in the camp (ordu).

What is your idea? If, is that OK with you, I would like to add "Ordubad" again? Thanks,--Behmod 17:38, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for writing me. The word ordu is Turkic and exist in all Turkic languages. For example Mongol Tatar state was called Kizil Ordu. See Golden Horde. The word exist even in Russian language and means something very numerous, Russians borrowed it from Tatars, but use it with a different meaning, but usually referring to armies. And the word horde in English has the same origin. Also, according to Iranica, “many Azeri words (about 1.200) entered Persian, since Iran was governed mostly by Azeri-speaking soldiers and rulers since 16th century, these loanwords refer mainly to administration, titles and conduct of war”. See the article called Azeri Turkish, page 246. The poetry you cited dates earlier than Safavids dynasty, but in fact Persia was ruled by Turkic-speakers for about 900 years, so no surprise that the words like “ordu” entered Persian language. So Ordubad is not a Persian name. But I also heard from some Iranian users that Nakhchivan is Persian. I’m not sure, does Nakhchivan mean anything in Farsi? Grandmaster 19:56, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

---

Hi, Yes, Nakhijevan (Nakhjavan in Persian) has a meaning in Persian(Nakh= String)+(Javan=young). But, you know that the name of Nakhichevan had been altered many times and we should see what was the original name to find the exact meaning of city.

About the ordu, I will try to find a Persian or Azeri linguistic and talk with him and get to a more scientific based conclusion about these subject (however since I am living in US, finding a Persian or an Azeri linguistic could be a hard job), but as a non-specialist in linguistic I can say that ordu has other different formats in Farsi like "orduzadan" means to camp. The fact that either Iranian or Turks used these word. But, we should see whichone adopted it from the other one. You said Farsi has 1200 Azeri word, but you know Azeris word with Iranian origins are much much more than these. I brought an example from old literature of Iran and also another format of this word, do you have an older reference in Turkish(it could help us to find the truth)? You know that Turkic nomads were living in northern borders of Iranian empires for about 2000 years and they adopted many words and traditions from Iranians which were in higher degree of civilization at the time. Moreover, about Kizil Ordu names we should be caution. Many names of tribes or ethnicity are given by other nations for example name of Ossetians ( your neighbours in Caucasus) were given by Greeks (I tried to find about the name origin and history of Kizil Ordu but I could not succeed up to now). Thanks, --Behmod 22:59, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, I don’t think it’s worth to include Ordubad as a Persian name. You see that I did not argue with the inclusion of Baku as a Persian name, because its etymology is well known. And I don’t deny the influence of Persian civilization and language on Turkic people and specifically Azeris. We have many Persian words in our language, but Persian language also has Turkish words. So I’m not arguing because I have something against Persian names, it’s just about factual accuracy. The word ordu is well known to be of Turkish origin, and moreover it was adapted from Turkic people in such languages as Russian, English and Persian. I highly doubt that Tatars or Mongols adapted that word from Persian. Also see here, about the Turkish city of Ordu. In modern Azeri language ordu means army. So I don’t think it’s worth the argument. Regards, Grandmaster 10:38, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

---

Hey GM, I am not argueing with you too. I just want to discover the factual accuracy whithout any prejudice. That's why I talked with your friend Saposcat and looking in Persian litrature. I did not write the name NakhJevan because I do not have enough information at the moment. Although current name looks like Farsi names but the current name has altered many times and original name may have Assyrian or Armenian origin. --Behmod 15:06, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I don’t mind discussion. I’m sure that for you it’s also about factual accuracy, like it is for me. Take care. Grandmaster 18:38, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

---

I checked different sources. Ordu in Persian means “group of people” and probably is just a homophone with Turkish term ordu, means "army". This word is a Indo-Eruoean and does not have Altaic origin. It has the same origin with heorde in old English, herde in German and Kheordu in P.Gmc and other terms in other Indo-European languages. Also, in Persian other than ordu words like “ordugah” and “orduzadan” are existed which are different formats of this word in Persian language. Ordu is not used as army and Persians have term “lashkar” means army.

I get to conclusion that Ordubad probably means a “town of many people“. Moreover, once I head from a Azeri linguistic who was familiar with Azeri and Persian and Pahlavi(old Persian) that the name of city in Pahlavi means “The City of justice”.

However, I do not have any plan to add any of above definitions to wikipedia at this time, except when I become sure about it or when I found a good citation.

P.S. It is just a friendly correction for you; when you find a common word in Persian and Russian, English, Germany and other Indo-European languages. It does not mean that they borrowed this word from each other necessary. In most cases it means that this word is a common Indo-European word. You may know that all these languages have the same origin. Do you know, what I am saying?

Cheers, --Behmod 09:09, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi. To end the dispute about the etymology of the name of Ordubad I refer you to encyclopedia Iranica. The article about Ordubad says: The Turco-Persian name "army town" implies a foundation during the period of the Mongol invasions or the ensuing Il-Khanid one, especially as the Il-Khanids made Azerbaijan the center of their power. Certainly, Hamd-Allah Mostawfi (writing in the mid-14th century) describes it as a provincial town, one of the five towns making up the tuman of Nakhjavan, with fine gardens, and producing good grapes, corn and cotton. [5]

So it’s indeed of mixed Turko-Persian origin, as I was saying. Also note the name of Ust-Orda in Siberia, where indo-European languages came very late. Obviously it’s the same word of orda. Regards, Grandmaster 09:37, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Sumgait

Agree. You might like to add {{primarysources}} too. I will watch the article. - FrancisTyers 14:17, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Grandmaster 18:39, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Azarbaijan (Iran)

"If you revert again, I will ask for administrator interference. Show me a source, not written by Iranians.)"

I am not going to revert, but your threatening comments are not appreciated. Wikipedia is not yours. It is not YOU who anyone needs to show anything. I suggest you take a break instead of posting comments such as above. --K a s h ^{Talk | email} 20:45, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

GM, leave a comment at Talk:Azarbaijan (Iran) and request sources. I might get involved, but I'm pretty busy. Adios. —Khoikhoi 21:03, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

WikiLove!

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Tabriz

Hi. What's your take on this[6][7]? See also this[8]? Pecher ^Talk 14:21, 30 May 2006 (UTC)